Gamaliel | Disruptive Presence 24

In which John and David discuss how a Pharisee saves the apostles and makes some good points for all our lives. As the Apostles encounter some objections to the work they are part of, not everyone knows what to do with them. The Pharisee Gamaliel, however, offers a way forward that might help us think about things today too.

Episode 77 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 24

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Transcript

Autotranscribed by Descript.com

[00:00:00] David: Well, John, we are coming to the end of chapter five. The apostles are causing all sorts of challenge and thought-provoking life-changing sort of notions and, and ideas. now they've sort of put a question on the table, about who are we gonna obey. And the fact that this is, this is all coming from Well, confrontation in the temple space really. 

[00:01:15] So, so there's some depth, I think around this question. We are going to obey God, not human authority. And, and I can't help but think about the context. You say this all the time and I think it's so important to remember where is this being said? And it's being said in the. 

[00:01:32] John: Yeah. 
 

[00:01:33] David: Surrounded by the authorities. 

[00:01:35] The question is laid down. Who are we going to obey when God's doing stuff that we didn't expect? And and so you're gonna read the text for us from verse 33. 

[00:01:45] John: I will, I will. And this is, this is the response to Peter's little mini sermon, his apologetic, his defense, which is just a superb, just a few verses. Of course, in chapter five, it's one of his briefest defenses, but it's packed, it's dense with incredible statements, and clearly it hits the mark because verse 33 begins when they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 

[00:02:11] But a Pharisee named a Gaal, a teacher of the law who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the man be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed the Sanhedrin Man of Israel. Consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago through this appeared claiming to be somebody, and about 400 men rallied to him. 

[00:02:36] He was killed, and all his followers were. And it came to nothing after him. Judas, the Galilee appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case, I advise you, leave these men alone. Let them go for if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will feel. 

[00:03:03] But if it is from God, You will not be able to stop these men. You will only find yourselves fighting against God. His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus and let them go. The Apostles left the San Hadron rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering, disgrace for the name. 

[00:03:29] Wow. Day after day in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah. Wow. Come on. 

[00:03:47] David: It's quite, it's quite the story, isn't it? John 

[00:03:51] John: It, it, I mean, what, what struck me, David, what really what struck me was the reaction. There must be sort of something being caught and felt in this moment. That is even greater than the words being spoken. Because, because you're thinking, okay, what Peter has said to them is pretty, pretty full on. 

[00:04:12] But the reaction seems completely disproportionate. So I think, I think there's, there's stuff swirling around in this moment and, and her reaction when they heard this, they were, they were furious. And I, I, I sort of did a little bit of work on that, on that word furious there. It only appears. 

[00:04:32] David: It's amazing. 

[00:04:33] John: Yeah, it only appears, did you spot this as well? 

[00:04:36] Only appears twice in the New Testament and both in the Book of Acts and both almost identical statements. So the, this one in verse 33, they were furious. Cut to the heart is one translation. I think they were cut. I love that. Cut through is a literal translation of the word, isn't it? That idea of dpri and cut through and, and, and then they wanted to put them to death. 

[00:05:05] Verse 33. Then I saw the CM word in X 7 54. We'll probably get to that at some point in the near future. When they heard the Stephen sermon, when they heard Stephen sermon, they were NIV translates. It furious CM word, dpri and nice their teeth at him. And of course we know that. Without spoiler alert, we know that they actually did kill him. 

[00:05:30] So in, in 5 33, they are cut through and want to put them to death. In 7 54, they are cut through and eventually put this man to death. So there's, so it's a really powerful word. And it's interesting, both words are reactions to something said, preached these, and I I do think it's worth our listeners going back to our previous podcast where we talked about both the, the taught word, the dedicat, the, the idea of the teaching and doctrine of the church that's filling Jerusalem, but also these words. 

[00:06:06] Of this life, the power of the Spirit words. And I think something is going on in the words of Peter, not just the, the words being heard, but maybe the impulse of the spirit. I think that's certainly happening with Steven. And I think words empowered by the spirit are creating this furious reaction, this violent reaction to both men. 

[00:06:27] And that that really stood, it feels like we've gone up a level because. At the be at the beginning of our passage, which we looked at last time, it says that they were filled with jealousy. In chapter four. When they persecute the church, the apostles, it says they were greatly disturbed. So we've gone from in chapter four, disturbed to chapter five, jealous to ni Furious. 

[00:06:49] David: Mm 
 

[00:06:50] John: So it's ratcheting up, isn't it? It's like it's, it's like, it's like the ante is being raised here from disturbed to jealous to furious. I don't think that's coincidental in the way Dr. Luke is writing here. Would you, is that, is that too much or do you think 

[00:07:06] David: Well, well, and then, to, to furious to the next time we encounter a speech murderous, 

[00:07:13] John: murderous? Indeed, 

[00:07:14] David: the, that, that, that scale keeps rising. I mean, interestingly that both of the furious reactions, the cut to the hearts. Both Peter and Steven are offering a critique of the religious system and, and, and I always feel the need to tread ever securely at this sort of point so as to not say what I'm not wanting to say. 

[00:07:44] But, the, the, and we've talked about this before on the podcast, but the, the antisemitism of the church throughout history is something that we should. Reject and also tread very carefully upon, right? So that goes without, without saying. At the same time, we've got to be careful to not miss that within the ministry of Jesus who is Jewish and the early apostles who are also Jewish. 

[00:08:11] There is a internal critique of the religious system of some. Let me just, it is a robust critique of the failure of the religious system to do what it is supposed to do. And, and so why? Preface that the way I did is I don't want this to be, just another couple of Christians talking about the, the, Jewish things. 

[00:08:34] But, but I think if you read the text at its face value here you have a group of Jewish men being inspired by Jesus, who they are convinced, we would say rightly is the Jewish Messiah, but not in the ways that necessarily people expected. But a hugely significant part of that message is the failure of the system to identify Jesus, but also the failure of system deeper than the identity of Jesus, the failure of the system to do what God asked it to do. 

[00:09:07] And I think that's explicitly present in the text, and that might be why the church is sometimes got self caught up in antisemitism because it's just reading the text at face value and now saying, oh, well we are gonna do the same thing. Because it strikes me as interesting that, if, if you look at what, if you look at what Peter does in Acts chapter five, is he basically leans heavily into what I think was a key part of Jesus's ministry. 

[00:09:35] John Dominic Cross and the New Testament scholar from, from some while back, he talked, he had this beautiful phrase. He said that Jesus came to announce the broker list kingdom of. Right. So, so, no, there's no middle man, right? , there's, there's just you now and you have access to God. But, but of course broker list kingdoms will always cause the people who have been doing the brokering think about how popular it was when you know you can now book your car insurance on online and don't need your own insurance broker anymore. 

[00:10:07] Well, it's popular to. Because you saved money less popular to the brokers because they were now outta business. And that's the threat. That's, I think it's, it's veiled if you're not aware of the system, but Peter's speech is a threat. I'm, I'm not gonna obey you, I'm gonna obey God, right? And, and, and if you are doing what God's doing, then I'll quite happily be here in the synagogue doing the things that I've always been doing. 

[00:10:33] And a look all hunky dory. But if you part company with God, I know where my allegiances lie. So, so, so Peter is bringing, I would say, John, this is a revolutionary threat. This is the, these are the words of a rebel saying that actually this authority has, this is, this is Martin Luther V the Pope during the Reformation. 

[00:10:54] This is, so I and, and you. The same is present in Steven's speech as. Is that you're the ones that are outta line and therefore, so that would be my just little off the cuff take that the reason we get this deep, deep anger is that actually in present, in both speeches is a threat to their way of life and perhaps even their own, livelihood. 

[00:11:20] John: Yeah. I think it's, I think it's, oh, I think it's on the money. Absolutely. I think that, I think that's an essential understanding in reading the book of X. Absolutely. And we have, we've always celebrated the Jewishness of Jesus, the Jewishness of the gospel, the Jewishness of the book of X, and the fact that the, Both the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts start the story in and around the temple because the plan was always for the salvation of that that whole dynamic and system in people. 

[00:11:51] So, so no one could ever accuse us of being anything other than trying to be faithful to the text. But if you don't understand and act that there is a, a definite religious. War going on in terms of an understanding of what this new way is and what it's doing to some of the old ways. Then, then it looks, it looks like another thing. 

[00:12:16] And, and I think David, so I think your reflection is absolutely phenomenal when then we think about GA's response. So I, I think, I think Gaal. Feels that, so this is, this is my hunch. I could be way off beam here, but you'll notice that he immediately intervenes. So there's this that's Killam moment. 

[00:12:42] And Camal immediately intervenes, 

[00:12:45] David: Mm. 
 

[00:12:45] John: gets the apostles out of the room and then speaks. Now Gail's an interesting person. We're told that he's a far. teacher of the law and honored by all the people. So he's a serious hitter. Of course, later on in the book of Acts, we'll bump into Gaal again because he, he taught a certain Saul from Tarus, who became a fairly well known person in the story of the church. 

[00:13:08] And, and he was Saul Paul says, I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers under cam. Now what's really interesting, of course about GA is that he's actually the grandson of Rabbi Hillel. 

[00:13:24] David: Yes. 
 

[00:13:25] John: Now, some of our listeners might, that might flash up a little light bulb for them. So in in the world of the New Testament, especially in the world of Jesus, Jesus actually comments on some of the interpretations of famous rabbis, shamai, and hello. 

[00:13:42] And most famously, the divorce conversation is Shamai and Halel. And a little easy way to remember it is Shamai is more strict interpretation. Shamai for strict. That's how I've remembered it. And Halel a little bit more liberal. So Hillel's position, when it comes to aspects of the law would be deemed a bit more liberal, a bit more critical perhaps. 

[00:14:09] So, so here's my thought, right? Is Gaal hearing something in the subversiveness of Peter that he. Deep down goes, the boy's got a point, right? There's something going on here, and it actually, Peter is saying some stuff that people like AME of a more liberal position might go actually. Actually, and, and I think we see this in the life of Jesus. 

[00:14:40] Like Nicodemus reaches out to Jesus and he says, we know you are a man sent from God. So they're, they're troubled by Jesus, but yet we know you're a man sent from God. There's this, something's going on. There is Ga, the sort of Nicodemus type character. He certainly saves the apostle's life. 

[00:15:02] David: Mm mm. 

[00:15:03] John: he makes a decision which creates an opportunity for the next wave of influence and, and I think, I think that's motivated by number one. 

[00:15:14] I think in our last podcast we talked about the fact that. Maybe something of the tone of Peter's conciliatory idea, he, god of our fathers, et cetera, et cetera. I, I think, I think Amelia may be hearing and feeling something in Peter, but he intervenes. And it could be that he's not as against the idea that our system isn't delivering what it should be in the way that maybe Peter is presenting. 

[00:15:43] I, so, I, I, I'm, I may be going out in a limb there, but I think that may be the idea of it. 

[00:15:48] David: Yeah, it's, mean, Galileo's a fascinating character, isn't he? And, and I think that in, in one sense, the, the way he responds to this is very classically. Halal side of the, of the traditions, is to be patient. Let's see how this works out. This is one of the things that fascinate Paul e Scholars, that that, that Paul is introduced to us as somebody that sits at the feet of Halal. 

[00:16:18] But yet when we meet Paul, he appears to have been very influenced by a shammai way of thinking, which is strike first and then work it out later. 

[00:16:28] John: Hmm. 
 

[00:16:29] David: So I think that you, you've got the potential that that a, that a halal out like Galileo will tend towards something interesting. However, there's also, it's fascinating to me, and I can't, I can't line up for sure the. 

[00:16:49] Time scales on this, right? So forgive me for just thinking out loud with you, John, but Gama Lale in the Tal mud is referred to as as, as the, as the Nazi, right? Of the Sedin, right? The president of the leader. Right. And Inac in Hebrew, sometimes the Prince and I just was remembered back to our last episode where, where Peter uses this slightly unusual word where he says, God exalted Jesus as the leader and the savior. 

[00:17:19] Right. And and then in the next, very next verse, we've got the Y, You know this Pharisee named Gail, a teacher of the law, respected by all the people, right? Who later tradition at least, tells us that, that they referred to him as the president, that the, the prince of the Cedron. I just, there's almost a sense of if and a huge if here, but if this was kind of how he was referred to at the time of the apostles that Peter's. 

[00:17:48] Towards, could be a dig towards even Amile himself, right? Then No, Jesus is the leader, not you. So Galileo's positive response could be, I mean, I've used could far too many times in a sentence here, but Gail's positive response could be some evidence of openness that he's not the one who has taken the biggest defense yet, potentially is the one the. Who was the target of Peter's comment? I, I, I don't know. I mean, that's, that is a shaky house of cards that just built John, but it, it's interesting, isn't it? 

[00:18:23] John: well, as we sometimes say, we might not build our house on that, but don't take it off the table. I, I think that's worth keeping on the table. That's fabulous. I've never seen that before. That's a gorgeous connection potentially to sort of prince and ruler of the Sanji. Ah, and and it would explain, it would explain why, why, like, He steps into this moment and everybody goes, okay now. 

[00:18:51] And you know the Sanhedrin is known for its raucous disagreement and argument and let's have a good old scrap over something or other. And yet he brings the whole thing to order. I mean, it's quite striking and not only does he bring it to order, but his way of approaching this and going forward is, is unanimously accept. 

[00:19:15] David: Yes. 
 

[00:19:17] John: So it does sort of lean into that. I mean, that's, if that's connected, that's phenomenal. And, and our listeners shouldn't, shouldn't abandon that idea. That's where the hunt I think and at the very least, it's a tasty, a tasty little rabbit to chase, isn't it? 

[00:19:31] David: Yes, yes. No, absolutely. 

[00:19:33] John: That is fabulous. 

[00:19:35] David: And and, and I think, I mean, there's depth to his teaching model as well of, of patience of, of, of, don't be so quick. I think of like these words from, from this, potential president of the synagogue. I mean, he, he definitely becomes this leading person. We just don't know where this sits in the time scale. 

[00:19:56] Do we. I think of how often we as Christians have stabbed first and asked questions later, and, and Gama lay's advice to the, the sedin here or the synagogue here, or sorry, the council that he's, he's part of, he. I think it bears repeating throughout history, and I almost wonder if that's why Luke has given him his whole speech. 

[00:20:21] Right. Like Luke hasn't just said, and Gail told them, Hey, let's be patient here. He, he recounts Gail's speech in full because I think. I think it's a very important piece of scripture 

[00:20:34] John: Yeah. 
 

[00:20:35] David: to, to watch our hearts on how quickly we just go, oh no, that's bad. Something new happens somewhere at some point. 

[00:20:42] Church history has, has almost always taken the hard line when God starts doing something new and, and I wish we would more often say, okay, let's just hold on and see 

[00:20:54] John: See what happens. And, and I do. Oh yeah. I, I, and I love, I love what seems to be his confidence in the providence of God. We, the providence of God's not such a cool idea in many circles anymore, but this idea of, well, look, hold on a minute. We, we believe that ultimately God is in control, right? 

[00:21:14] He's the ruler of the universe, blessed our you Lord, our God, king of the universe. I mean, it's one of. Introductory statements in judaistic prayers, which reminds us actually, I'm not in charge, right? I'm not in charge of my own life and I'm not in charge of the universe. And here's Gaal sort of standing up saying, Hey, look, hold it a minute. 

[00:21:33] Let's just think about this. If this is of God, then fighting. It puts you on the wrong side of this argument. If this is not of God, this is just gonna blow over as it always does. So why don't you hold steady? It's a, it, it, it shows. Perhaps. I see. To me, I, I think this is more than pragmatism, Peter. I think this is more than him gone. 

[00:21:55] Look, it's gonna cut one of two ways, so let's give it five minutes. I think it is that, I think it's patience, but I also think it's a reflection of the deeply spiritual man. I think it's a man who's seen life, who understands the ways of God. Perhaps before this moment, it's, it's an inconceivable that AME has not had conversations about Jesus. 

[00:22:15] He must have been in the San He group that met Jesus. I mean, he must have been. 

[00:22:21] David: Mm 
 

[00:22:22] John: this is, this is a man that's not suddenly confronted with a new idea by these followers of the way. He must have had behind the scenes conversation about Jesus. Must have done and he must have met Jesus at some level, even if it's a formal one, as part of the Sanhedrin that you know, this man wouldn't reach this position of influence by the time we get to Acts chapter five, if he hadn't have been around in the life of Jesus. 

[00:22:48] is there something else going on? And I, I could be reading too much into that, but is, is Gaal actually not just reacting to Peter and the Apostles is Gaal looking at the whole story of Jesus and wondering, hold on a minute, this thing's persisting. It won't go away. It's growing, it's advancing. 

[00:23:07] When we actually look at what these guys are doing, they're not actually doing a lot that is fundamentally. Wrong. They're just taking our message to a whole different level. Is, is Camiel feeling that is camiel reacting, respond? I don't know. There's a lot of ifs and buts and ons and maybes and could bes within this speech, but it's a, it's a turning point, doesn't it? 

[00:23:30] Because if he doesn't intervene, the likelihood is Peter's gonna die. They're gonna take Peter and the boys out the back and had this done with. And Steven wouldn't have been the first martyr. Peter would've been. But Gaia's intervention probably saves Peter's life and the rest, as they say is history. 

[00:23:49] David: It's interesting for me. On one hand, this is the sort of, almost the origins of the kind of be on the right side of history conversation. You hear this a lot, but the fascinating thing for me about Gama Le is how he. Premises this notion of the right side of history. So basically is just make sure you're doing what God's doing, right? 

[00:24:13] Which, when you hear this phraseology used in common parlance these days of make sure you're on the right side of history, it generally means The, well, the barometer of, well, who chooses the right side of history is slightly broken. Gail's very clear here, like, and I think it's a fascinating statement from him in, in his position this in Aron, to be stood there and say, They're accusing, they have brought a challenge against us to say that we might be out of line with what God is doing and at some level, interpreted and paraphrased Gama LA's response to, to the Stran is, Maybe they're right, 

[00:24:53] John: Yeah. 
 

[00:24:54] David: Like if you actually, cuz he's, cuz he's, he's left the door wide open. What if God is in this? I, for 1:00 AM not going to defend that. Right. I'm not gonna fight against that. Which, if you think about who he is. Where he's standing. Right. Like it's a, it's a phenomenal position for a, of a faith actually for him to stand in. 

[00:25:16] Right. To say, I'm not willing to rule out that God's not present in this. There's, there's also a little side note for me that if all the apostles are thrown out of the room while this conversation happens, 

[00:25:29] John: Hm. 
 

[00:25:30] David: if we believe, which I'm very happy to believe that that Luke. Is dealing with eyewitness testimony. 

[00:25:37] At least somebody gossips on what Galileo actually said to the apostles. At some point, they had a friend in there or someone who became a friend in there who gave them the speech. 

[00:25:48] John: Well, of course a fascinating, I mean, the Book of Acts does tell us that that many priests and those within the religious system did become followers of the way, this is this, this happens. The, also the, all, all, all the, the Other fascinating little rabbit that she has on that is Nicodemus in the room 

[00:26:06] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:07] John: if Nicodemus is in the room. 

[00:26:09] He was a, we see Nicodemus in John chapter three. He pops up in the San He John chapter seven, defending Jesus. And of course he pops up in John chapter 19 with Joseph of our Mathia, literally identifying with the death of Jesus. And, and that's, that's the clearest coming out moment as far as a Pharisee could do in, in followership of Jesus. 

[00:26:31] Is Nicodemus in the room? Is he, is he part of this community or is he no longer? So I, I, I think there would've been a few people in the room relieved. Relieved the camal steps up. Could it be, could it be that if Camal is also sensing, there's a lot of people in the room who have a greater sympathy for this sec. 

[00:26:54] Then is being publicly admitted and maybe he's also reflecting something of the caution within the San Hiran. So, so again, and isn't it important for us to recognize, and I think San, this is where Lio really helps us, that when we read a phrase, when they heard this, they were furious. It doesn't mean everybody. 

[00:27:12] David: Mm. 
 

[00:27:13] John: We have to be careful with that, don't we? Them doesn't mean all of them. They doesn't mean all of them. 

[00:27:20] David: Yeah. 
 

[00:27:20] John: There's, there's 70 plus, 71 people in the Sanhedrin context sitting there. The implication by Ga Emil's responses. Not all of them were furious and not all of them were ready to kill Peter and the apostles is gaal a representation of. 

[00:27:36] Sensitivity to the new sect and a reluctance to punish them. 

[00:27:42] David: Mm 
 

[00:27:42] John: I, I just think, oh, I think there's, there's so many things there, David layered into this wonderful passage that it's, it's just simply staggering. And I think Emil is a very interesting, and, and I would agree with you. I think it's one of the reasons amongst many that Dr. 

[00:27:58] Luke gives us. The whole narrative gives us the whole speech. 

[00:28:03] David: It's not really entirely connected to what we're talking about right now, but I'm just given, we're there. You know what struck me, John, when I was reading this and it just like verse 37 after him, Judas, the gale rose up at the time of the census and got people to follow him and he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered and it just, it just struck me that at the time of the census, and that's when Jesus was, 

[00:28:30] John: Yep. 
 

[00:28:31] David: know, and I wonder if Luke just drops that, reminds us of that particular phraseology. Without trying to be too to have too much rhetorical flourish to this. But there's something beautiful about, people were fighting up against things and, and trying to find God's liberation and they were doing it through violent means. And while this violent attempt to, to find salvation, liberation was happening, a a baby was being born in Bethlehem, and I can't help but think that Luke is thinking that exact thing, when, when he's scribing this part of this story together. 

[00:29:06] John: Yep. Yeah, and it's interesting that in the two examples that Gaal refers to through this on Judas, that the implication is a violent revolt. 

[00:29:16] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:18] John: And of course there's no, there's no up, up to this moment, nor in the whole of the Book of Acts, there's not a single example of the church being involved in violent conflict. 

[00:29:27] David: Yeah, 
 

[00:29:28] John: In fact you will, you could argue that Dr. Luke is writing the book of Acts in some ways, as a defense of the church in the Roman Empire and saying to the Roman Empire, you have nothing to fear from these people. They don't carry swords. They don't kill one another. They're actually, they're, they're peace loving in that sense. 

[00:29:44] And isn't it interesting that GA uses the language of, we might find ourselves fighting God? So there seems to be a lovely sort of, Juxtaposition of the language, the, the, the revolt language that is absent, absent from the way, and now the aggressive language that is present potentially in the San Hiran. 

[00:30:09] I mean, is that, is Gaia really playing with that and saying, guys, be careful, or we find ourselves becoming the very thing that we are not wanting to become. I, I just, I just think that's very fascinating. Potentially nuance in there. 

[00:30:25] David: And of course, and I'm just, I'm trying to search it while we're talking. But yeah, I think that is a once in the New Testament word. When Gamma LA says You may be fighting God, it's the Greek word is Theo Maxo. If I'm just reading that, reading that correctly there, John , literally meaning to be in conflict with God or God opposing appears only here in the whole New Testament. That, that he has. I love that Galileo has a specific term for it. It's a very precise word. We do not want to be Theo Maxo. We do not want to be in God conflict. 

[00:31:06] And, and it is beautiful little little phrase and, I, I think that you see this tension and, and there's a weird tension that we don't want to be in God conflict. Everyone's convinced, but they still beat the apostles up and tell them, don't speak about Jesus, which the apostles flatly ignore and actually take the fact that they got beat up somehow. 

[00:31:28] Look at the sentence they were considered worthy to suffer, dishonor for the sake of the. Just beautiful sentence, and therefore, every day in Temple and also home, they didn't stop teaching and proclaiming that Jesus was the Messiah.  

[00:31:42] John: And, and does that last little bit in verse 42, it sort of echoes the angel bit, ghost and tell the people the full message of this 

[00:31:49] David: I love it. 

[00:31:50] John: and then we're gonna obey God rather than men. It's almost like verse 42 is, is is the final. Okay. Look, we've been told by the angel of the Lord to do this. We've now said to you, we're gonna. 

[00:32:04] And even if you whip us and give us a hard time, we're still gonna do it. And they went straight back and did it. So, and, and it does lean in. Remember in our last podcast, I think we talked about the word. The life, the power of the spirit. There is something now building in this community that is relentless. 

[00:32:21] And I think, I think people like Amelia are spotting that. I think they're going, this is, this is different from throughs. This is different from Judas, the Galilee. There's something going on here that's different. There's no swords being waived and there's no Romans being killed, but these people are growing. 

[00:32:38] And it feels like we're we're, we're facing a different challenge, and I think that conclusion in verse 42, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah. It's just a beautiful conclusion. The chapter five and of course, leads us dramatically in the chapter six. 

[00:32:55] David: It's just so good, John. Like there's nothing like, the angel says, Hey, go, go preach. Go proclaim the word about this life in the temple. They're like, okay, yep, we'll do that. And so then they get in all sorts of trouble. They get beat up and flocked and just like, and so what should we do tomorrow? 

[00:33:12] Then boys, well back to the temple, I suppose. 

[00:33:18] John: It's 
 

[00:33:19] David: every single day. I love the fact that they just didn't pay a flat bit of notice to anything they were told. 

[00:33:26] John: It's staggering 

[00:33:27] David: Is is why we talk about this disruptive presence of the spirit, isn't it? That the spirit is going to do what the spirit wants to do and that involves not allowing them to be in prison if they are not wished to be in prison and not listening, to the authorities that want to stop them talking about Jesus. 

[00:33:46] And of course the key thing for me in this is cuz this is them working through a very clear notion. Of what it is to be obedient to God. But, and this would be my big caution in this text, don't forget that everybody in this story wanted to be obedient to God. 

[00:34:04] John: Mm. 
 

[00:34:05] David: So it is possible to actually sometimes get so blinkered that you think you're, you think that beating up these apostles is being obedient to God. 

[00:34:14] And I think too often we, as the church have just assumed, oh, if I'm thinking it, that's the thing that God's 

[00:34:20] John: Yeah. 
 

[00:34:21] David: And there's a, there's a subtle call under this, which is be sure that you are definitely hearing what God is. 

[00:34:29] John: indeed. I love that. And of course, as Gaal suggested if this is from God, you can't stop it. And the book of X is the record that ultimately with the disrupting power of the spirit, these people were unstoppable.