Teeth Gnashing after the Sermon | Disruptive Presence 29

In which John and David discuss the fallout from Stephen's sermon. Quite a lot happens in the immediate aftermath of Stephen's talk. It escalates quickly and terribly. We are also introduced to an important and surprising new character in the story.

Episode 86 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 29

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Transcript

Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] David: Well John, after Steven's huge sermon that we've spent a little bit of time talking about, we now come to the response to this sermon and uh, 

[00:01:00] John: date and 

[00:01:01] David: might make us reassess whether or not we are gonna go preach sermons like Steven. Now, 

[00:01:08] John: Yeah, well, I think Steven brings it to a conclusion and uses phrases like stiff necked people with uncircumcised hearts. I, I, I think it's probably stirring up the audience somewhat. And Ensuring that Steven did not miss and hit the wall on this one. And it, and it certainly does get an incredible reaction which has implications not only for Steven, of course, but for the wider community of the way. 

[00:01:33] And and it's an incredible, I suppose we could argue a tipping pinpoint moment in the Book of Acts. Huge moment, huge moment. 

[00:01:41] David: When you, when you start to land your sermon with you stiff necked people with uncircumcised hearts, you kind of know that you're not leading into the offering, aren't you? It's 

[00:01:51] John: Yes. Yes. And, and the chances of getting invaded back are probably diminishing right there. Yeah. Yeah. Don't call us. We'll call you. Thanks Steven. Bless 

[00:02:00] David: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So what we're gonna do is read acts chapter seven, verse 54 through into the first couple of verses of chapter eight. And that kind of encapsulates actually what you were saying as to how. This tragic story of Stephen becomes a catalyst for some significant change in the early church, but also in the narrative of acts. 

[00:02:24] Something starts to change in this, in this story now, doesn't it? 

[00:02:29] John: Absolutely. It really, really does. You do feel a, a bit of a a gear change happening, don't you? Just as we read it together. So, verse 54 X seven says, when the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and they niced their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God in Jesus. 

[00:02:52] Standing at the right hand of God, Luke, he said, I see heaven open and the son of man standing at the right hand of God at this. They covered their ears and yelling at the top of their voices. They all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city, and began to stone. Meanwhile, the witnesses led their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, Lord Jesus received my spirit. Then he fell on his knees and cried out, Lord, do not hold this sin against them. When he had said this, he fell asleep and Saul approved of their killing. On that day, a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 

[00:03:50] Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him, but Saul began to destroy the church going from house to house. He dragged off both men and women and put them in prison. Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever. They went, come on. 

[00:04:13] David: Wow. It's, it's a pretty it's pretty intense few verses, isn't it? There's a lot. There's a lot happens there. 

[00:04:21] John: Totally, totally. And, and doesn't it show us that? word of God has the power to really separate, divide cause reactions that are both positive and negative. You Up, up to this moment in the Book of Acts, we've seen a general acceptance of this message. From the, from the wider population and, and the word of God has been received. 

[00:04:46] There's been demonstrations of signs and wonders and miracles. It seems that the community of the way are growing with some level of general acceptance. Even if there is a. Bit of aggravation with the San Hadron, and you've had a couple of run-ins with the San Hadron up to this point, but nothing that suggests something like this is about to happen. 

[00:05:06] And we've had our conversation about Gae who, who says things like Luke, if this is of God, you're fighting God. And if it's not of God, it'll just. Die out. Like all the other sort of has beens and, and, and people that have come and gone so, so clearly there is this sort of coexistence that's happening in Jerusalem with the people of the way. 

[00:05:28] They're still imbibed into a Jewishness that allows some sort of negotiation to take place. But it seems like Steven's sermon and the reaction to this sermon blows all of that outta the water, and it seems to create a definite moment of fracture in a, in a. Strictly Jewish and these people of the way, and their interpretation now of the law and how that law is seen through Jesus and this new community that is emerging. 

[00:06:00] David: Yes. No, definitely. And, and I, I think it's the whole, the whole framing of the passage interests me actually as well, John, on that front, about just how, how Luke sets it. Out for us, because I found it was, it was an interesting experience, even just listening to you read it, but with our whole series in mind so far, it feels like, I don't wanna say this disrespectfully, but the, the everything's been moving along at a particular pace, and there's been, and the pace has been fast. 

[00:06:34] The Holy Spirit's definitely been working quickly and stuff. But this escalates really quickly. Like if you think of just where we were, in chapter six, there wasn't a sense in chapter six that we're gonna start having people being killed soon. There was a little bit of violence developing. 

[00:06:54] There was some flogging happening from time to time. And but this seems, but you even feel this in the narrative as you read it. Like, whoa, this escalates, right? And this, this, this escalates quickly. and there's, there's deep animosity has developed here around this story. Like, you, you, you feel it in the reading of the narrative. 

[00:07:13] Now maybe it's different cuz you were reading out loud, but listening to it read out loud. I, I just was struck by like, man, this all happened really, really quickly. 

[00:07:21] John: . Indeed and, and I think the language is really powerful, isn't it? I mean, verse 54. , they, n i v translated, they were furious. I, I, I mean a more, more literal translation, you could say cut, cut to the 

[00:07:36] David: mm 
 

[00:07:37] John: Um, which, which is only other used in one other place in the Book of Acts. We've, we've touched on that already. 

[00:07:43] In, in five x 5 33 will get a very similar reaction. There's a cutting to the heart and that sort of causes a very violent. 

[00:07:52] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:53] John: there seems to be something going on that's deeply, not just deeply spiritual and religious, but deeply emotional here. And we, we had talked about, it's not just a Sanhedrin involved here, but, but the implication is this synagogue of the freed men, these, these sort of hellistic Jews who fought hard for their Jewishness, fought hard for their identity. 

[00:08:16] Stephen is. It seems dismantling aspects of that, and Stephen's both sermon and conclusion sort of cuts them right into the heart and they nash their teeth. And it's interesting that that phrase only appears there in the book of facts. It's like, it's a very unique sort of statement that, that you've got this sort of ing of the teeth and, and it's a really quite, it's quite frightening, isn't it? 

[00:08:45] So you've got. , although Itron organized in the sense, it feels to me, David spontaneous, it doesn't feel like this was the plan. The plan wasn't, okay, well here's Stephen sermon, but we're gonna kill him anyway. It feels like this story started with new intention of killing anybody. 

[00:09:06] David: exactly. Yes. 

[00:09:08] John: And it sort of explodes. 

[00:09:09] And then, and, and, and, I, I grew up in Belfast and grew up in the troubles, and I've seen calm, rational, really nice people go really crazy in a mob. 

[00:09:22] David: Yes. 
 

[00:09:23] John: it's really, once a mob kicks in, once a group dynamic starts to kick in, suddenly there's a whole other world starts to develop here, and it seems like something spontaneous happens. In the, in the result of this emotional, spiritual reaction. And, and now we've got a situation that runs out of control in minutes. It's like, it goes from, we're having a good theological debate here to we're dragging a man outside to kill him. I mean, that's a serious shift, doesn't it? 

[00:09:58] David: Well, abs absolutely, and and I'm, I'm fascinated by this , this idea of this, of this gnashing, right? And, and this reaction and this, this sort of visceral visceral response, isn't it? 

[00:10:10] So you've got the, they were cut to the heart, which is all very internal stuff. So we imagine just, oh, that that's, that might not even be visible. But then there's this physical response of, of of, of smashing up their teeth. The, the Greek word is Bruxo, which just even sounds a little automatic peak, it's the, it's the noise. 

[00:10:29] And I didn't realize this, by the way. But, but, but in, But bruxism is a condition where you grind and clench your teeth. So people that have that problem of grind and clench your teeth is, is called bruxism, which comes from the Greek word that's used that's used here, but, 

[00:10:47] John: I did not know that. That'll probably pop up in a quiz. Competition. David, that's a worth. What's a worth thing though? One for your quiz? 

[00:10:53] David: It's true, right? So, so, so yeah, this idea. So, so I'm, I'm struck by the, by the, initially, by the visceral sense of these people are very angry and, and they're grinding their teeth. But then what starts to interest me is just that the use of that language is, is, I just would love to reflect a little bit on that, because. 

[00:11:17] It only appears elsewhere in the New Testament that I can see. And, and if you've if , if you've found it elsewhere, then please point it out to me, John. But in all the references that I can see to this, to this idea predominantly in Matthew, they're always related to being thrown out of the kingdom of heaven, right? 

[00:11:37] So you get this constant warning of, of Jesus. If you keep going this way, you'll be throwing, you'll, you'll find yourself outside the kingdom of heaven. You'll find yourself in the, in the fires of Johanna where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Right? The only place that Luke uses the word elsewhere is in Luke chapter 13, verse 28, and it's the passage around the narrow door, right? And, and it says and you'll begin to say, we ate and drank with you and you taught in our streets. But he will say, I do not know where you go from. Go away from me. All you evil doers. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of heaven and our kingdom of God. 

[00:12:22] Sorry, that was me thinking I was reading Matthew there for a second and. And I just thought, it's interesting that you've got this gnashing of teeth once more in, in the kinda lukin literature, but it's also a site where Abraham and the, you know, and well, the forefathers are mentioned, which Steven's done in this story here, and, and it's this image of, oh, when you, well, and again, I might be stretching here, John, but it just strikes me as interesting that the question is one. Well, the question begins. Finding your way through the narrow door, and these people are rejecting Stephen and, and then we have this gnashing of teeth and, and you, you'd think I'd have a stronger point to make than this, but it just struck me as interesting that when Jesus talks about rejecting him and the way of the kingdom, he talks about there will be weeping in the gnashing of teeth. 

[00:13:17] And then in Luke's telling of this story of the rejection of Steven, we get the only actual use. of gnashing of teeth in the New Testament in all the other places. It's something that happens in the future as a result of the rejection. I don't know, I just found that kind of quirky and interesting. 

[00:13:33] John: I, I think it's a beautiful connection. Never ever seen that before. I think that's really fascinating. And, and maybe, maybe in, in the way, then Luke brings it to us that you've got something of the power of this reaction. This is this, this is not just a group of people. Oh, that's an interesting idea, Steven. 

[00:13:53] This is, this is causing profound consternation where something that is felt internally explodes into even a physical reaction to Steven. And, and this, this, this idea of national, I mean, that's quite a frightening sort of thought process. And, and what did that look like as, as, as adult men started their nash, their teeth against this? 

[00:14:19] And the fact that it only appears here shows how really exceptional an idea this is and how incredibly. Deeply violent. This was, this was, this is now a mob. Let loose a mob that is fueled by a sense of injustice, a sense of self-righteousness, a sense of defending the honor of God a, a mob that is now fueled by the fact that they see Stephen as an enemy of Torah, an enemy of Moses an. 

[00:14:52] Of God's plan on Earth and therefore all of that, all of that combines into a toxic moment, a perfect storm of zealous and, and unbridled religious fervor. And of course it does. It does, it does speak to our , it does speak to our modern world that. That when, when you get a combination of those ideas coming together, a sense of righteousness is on your side, a sense that you are here to defend and protect God, whatever, or whoever your God is, the sense that someone is attacking your God or attacking your identity and you have the means to act. 

[00:15:35] I mean, you have a serious. Sort of concoction there for religious violence. And, and of course that's something that even in the 21st century world, we're not really unaccustomed to, we, we have been aware of this sort of stuff for centuries and centuries, but probably in the late 20th century and early 21st century, we, we've seen an explosion of religious violence in a way that's, that's got the whole world's attention. 

[00:16:05] David: That's, that's the fascinating thing actually. If, if you try and tie these two threads of thought together, perhaps. John is that when Jesus talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth, it's always in a similar. Context wherein there is an argument about the way of the kingdom, the way of Jesus. 

[00:16:28] And, and the, the people who are in their minds protecting the religious systems and structures are the ones trying to close the system down and say to Jesus, not like this. Right? That sort of religious tendency that we all have in our own hearts to exclude and to, to, to, to put up fancies. 

[00:16:49] and Jesus warns constantly. be careful of this. And, and this is a fascinating thing. People talk a lot about, Jesus' language about hell and gehenna and, the, the, the sheep and the goats. But it's fascinating that he only talks to. The, the religious people about this sort of stuff, and it's always in the context of like, you are trying to close this down and be careful of that because in your attempt to close it down, you might find yourself on the outside of it, you might find yourself outside where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, right? 

[00:17:21] Then you have Stephen comes along. and, and, and he, he sort of says the, the same sort of thing and the same reaction, but this time it's not a metaphorical or a possible or a future track. It's something that's actually happening and I can't help but think that there's something fascinating in Jesus is talking to his various, people that he's arguing with. 

[00:17:48] What we often read of as a future, I'm gonna use the word hell, right? A future thing that will happen. But here we see it in Acts chapter seven. actually happening in real time. Right. That, that, that people are, and almost this sense, I, I hold to this view that, that one of the problems we have in the church when it comes to talking about hell is our IDs are too simplistic. 

[00:18:11] Right. And, and one of the problems, if we only ever think about hell in the future, we, we miss seeing the presence of. Of actually hell in the present. You know what I mean? That actually there's bad, horrible things happen that work against the kingdom of God. And I can't help but think that this is what Luke is doing here is that he's drawing us this picture of, of just. 

[00:18:37] The, the opposition to the kingdom of God that the, that and it, and it's so, because it's, I know I'm really captured, you can probably tell this, I'm really captured by how graphically Luke describes the actions of the opponents. Look, they're furious, cut to the heart. They're gnashing their teeth, they're covering their ears. 

[00:18:56] They're yelling at the top of their voices. They're rushing at him, they're throwing stones at him like this is, I mean, this is a picture, if you put this into a parable, we would all happily say, well, this is a picture of hell. , do you know what I mean? And, and, and so I wonder if Luke is actually purposely drawing us towards that, saying this is the rejection of what Jesus is trying to do. 

[00:19:20] And, and therefore actually the rejection of the story of Abraham and Jacob, and, and, and, and, and Mosies. I mean, maybe I'm pushing too far. But I would just encourage anyone reading it, if you go and compare this to Luke's other tellings of stories, he doesn't offer this level of, of physical detail of how the people are behaving. 

[00:19:41] Does that make sense? 

[00:19:42] John: Oh, absolutely. And, and I think there's an essence of, of something in the reaction of these men that captures the essence of, of what hell. A life far from God, a life separated from God. Looks like it's, it's, there are, there are ideas that are connecting here and, and here are people who completely are convinced they are right. 

[00:20:08] And in the, on the basis of that are doing something that is deeply, deeply dark and wrong. 

[00:20:14] David: Yes. 
 

[00:20:14] John: and, and if we were observers, I mean, we're reading this, this passage 2000 years later in the comfort of our studies and, and speaking to a lovely, a lovely supportive audience. But if we were went back in time, in a time machine and watched this event, 

[00:20:33] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:34] John: I mean, we would be, we would be horrified at every single level. 

[00:20:40] To see, to see what seemed to be an intelligent respectful, honorable, spiritual group of people suddenly descend into a r like a, a crazy mob. And at the end of it, you've got and, and like stoning, my goodness. This is a, this a pretty, I mean, there aren't many nice ways to die, but this is a, this is a pretty catastrophic way to die. 

[00:21:04] And none of this would be pretty, we're, we're, we're talking, we're talking. If they threw the stones with the fury, With which were introduced to their reactions, then we are, we are getting violence landed upon Stephen, which would've been absolutely catastrophic to watch. And, and, and you, you, you've gotta, you've gotta imagine, my goodness. 

[00:21:27] Look, look at this. It's, it's like, it's like a group. It's like a, a group of wild. Like set upon a defenseless creature. And that's what's happening here. It's, it's a terrible, terrible moment. And we've, we've sort of sanitized it a wee bit in the church because, 2000 years have passed. You, you read that story? 

[00:21:48] Oh, yes. Stephen was executed and then we sort of move on. But if we just pause something very, very, very, very, 

[00:21:57] David: Mm. 
 

[00:21:57] John: dark is going on here, and you've got good people descending into doing terrible things all in the name of God. and, and that's quite a, to me that's quite a terrifying thought. Wherever we go with the book of acts, just, just the human capacity to flip like that to, it's, it's the stories we know of, of people in, in the, in, in war or in the name of, of war doing terrible things in the battlefield and going home and playing with their children. 

[00:22:29] It's, it's that sort. It's that sort of paradox and contradiction because these were good people. The Sanhedrin were good people. They represented a good way and we're seeing something really dark here, and I think there's something without stretching it too far and, and, and not wanting to take our listeners somewhere where maybe we don't want it to go, but, but certainly there's something that the essence of darkness in hell in a moment like this, this is, if we were there watching this, we go, my goodness, this must be what hell looks like. 

[00:23:06] David: Yes, yes. I mean, this is, this is the nature of doing a podcast, which is two friends conversing about the text. Is that, as you were saying it there, I'm thinking, oh, if I was to preach this now, I think I would have a sentence to say what I waffled long about earlier trying to, trying to get out. But the way you phrased it there think, you know that when religious people who, who are attempting to defend God, Commit terrible acts. 

[00:23:37] It's fascinating to me that the language Luke uses to describe this in the rest of the New Testament is only used to describe hell and that, and, and maybe if you've been listening to this episode so far, that's what I've been trying, that's what I've been trying to say. So don't hear what I wasn't saying in all of that other 

[00:23:58] John: Oh, no, 

[00:23:58] David: but the, the, the Luke. The only language Luke can use to describe this scene is language that we only seen elsewhere used to describe, and, and I think that's poignant. I think there's, I think there's, there's commentary in that of, of, for all of us, it's very easy to read this and say, well, I now have my opinion on what happened in that story. 

[00:24:21] But, I've, John, I was, I was a little, a little boy watching the first. Gulf War, and I remember watching scenes of, of bombs being attached onto, onto the, British and and American. Plains with Bible verses written on the site of them. Right. And, and I remember e even as a little boy, being disturbed by that image of that doesn't seem the right use of the name of God, and and, and and there's bigger debates that people can have about that. But when we start to, when we start to attach God's name to any forms of, of destruction and violence, I think this text, and I didn't expect to have this conversation. This is what I. Two texts. I didn't think this is the conversation we'd have, but, but I think we, you come to a text like this and just, it's as if Luke is just subtly warning us when we do these sorts of violence thinking we're protecting God. 

[00:25:17] The God that we've just heard from in, in, in St in Stephen's sermon that like doesn't need that much from us. You know what I mean? 

[00:25:25] John: He doesn't. And if listen, if, if, if our God needs protection from us, God help him. It, it's like, my goodness. So, but, but isn't, isn't that something of the, I think that is some of the vulnerability of, of humanity in its worst forms, even in a, in an apparent righteous. 

[00:25:45] Reason we can end up doing really terrible things that, that ultimately dishonor what we're about. Interestingly he's now a pass, of course. Former Chief Rabbi of the Annette Kingdom, Jonathan Sachs, wrote a brilliant book on this whole idea of no in God's. , it's a super book. I, I would recommend that to any of our, and he really does delve into the darkness of religious violence, violence in the name of God. 

[00:26:13] And ironically, of course, hello. Hello. He, he doesn't reference this moment in. In X chapter seven, and it, for obvious reasons this is a phenomenal example of the very thing that he positions and apologetic against. And it's a brilliant piece of writing and it's, it's worthy of, worthy of our consideration in that context. 

[00:26:34] David: And, and it's very important, I think, for us to confess as Christians that, that the way of Jesus has become so invaded by this brokenness as well, that, that this is not something that other religions do. The, the religious violence in the name of Jesus is, is long and storied, unfortunately. And, and I think that we see. The sermon on the mount, the sermon on the plane in Luke is so obvious places to go. But, but so much of scripture is a commentary against that type of behavior. And, and, and that sort of, that sort of warning that, and, and of course there's a subtlety now and we've not even talked about Steven yet. 

[00:27:23] But, but the way that even despite this, God is gonna keep working with these with, with within this persecution. So we, we don't see God being, it. It's, it's, it's, again, I'm wishing we did this podcast back backwards because I, I would frame my ideas better, but in one sense, the story that we're seeing from Luke is God doesn't need us to defend. 

[00:27:52] Right. And in fact, when we choose to take up violence and defend God, we might end up looking more like hell than heaven. Right. That, that's the one statement. But then the other side of it is, one of the reasons that God doesn't need us to defend him is even in a, in the point of persecution, God can still work. 

[00:28:10] Right? And, and this is the other complexity of this story is, For both parties. This isn't going the way that we would've expected, but God's still working. So you get this, acts chapter eight, verse four. Those who had been scattered, preached the word wherever they 

[00:28:26] John: Hmm. Hmm 

[00:28:27] David: there's this fascinating narrative in these few verses about God's control. 

[00:28:33] Isn't there about, about the fact that God doesn't need us to fight for him? The end of Stephen's sermon was he doesn't need us to build houses for him and, and then the end of this little passage is, and God doesn't even need everything to be going well, to to work. I don't know. I think that's a, maybe that's the free sermon that you get from this week's two text, but I think that's a beautiful, a beautiful little kind of subar. 

[00:28:56] John: absolutely. And, and I think that Subar narrative even carries into the, the actual event here of Steven's execution. I think you get. Gorgeous moments of of dynamic contrast. When when we look at the reaction of the crowd, they're cut to the heart. 

[00:29:13] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:14] John: nice their teeth and sort of, react to Stephen and then, and then you look at Stephen's reaction. 

[00:29:20] But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. So, so you've got one group. Their vision is completely consumed now with an agenda that is intent and destruction. And Steven's vision is filled with Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 

[00:29:42] You, they're looking at him and Steven's looking at Jesus. It's, it's, now I know I don't wanna fluff that up too much and make that sort of too, too sentimental, but there's a dynamic visional contrast here that there are, there are consumed with this man to the extent they're even at this moment, they're struggling to keep their hands off him. 

[00:30:01] And in fact, it's Steven's. Response. I, I, I see heaven open in the son of man, that, that's it. That's, that's the final Neil in the proverbial coffin as far as Steven is concerned. And then of course, they react again by rushing at him, covering their ears, yelling at the top of their voices, dragging him away. 

[00:30:24] And then what's Stephen's reaction? Stephen Ppri. 

[00:30:28] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:28] John: they're yelling, they're suppressing, they're, they're, they're wanting their voices to suppress his voice. They want their, the volume of their violence to extinguish. Hi, this message, and, and yet Steven's prayer is still heard. 

[00:30:46] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:47] John: it's not a prayer vengeance. 

[00:30:48] It's not a prayer of God killed them all before they kill me. It's a prayer of Lord Jesus receive my spirit and don't hold their sin against them, and, and I'm fairly convinced that elements of that prayer and Stephen's reaction were partly used by the Holy Spirit to get onto. The skin of a young man called Saul. 

[00:31:09] I, I do think this becomes an ongoing narrative and factor within Saul, but I think Steve David e even as you've El illustrated, the, the, the sort of tensions without, throughout this whole episode, the, the sort of the things that sit on the opposites and hear, even in Steven's execution, you've got, you've got in the words of the. The vision of the crowd and Stephen's vision. You've got, you've got them yelling and Stephen praying. There is a dynamic contrast. And remember, millions of years ago, we did the parables and we, we talked about the fact that in the parables sometimes it's not greater in the sense of size, but it's greater in the sense of influence. 

[00:31:52] It's not that the kingdom dominates, but that the kingdom infiltrates and you get this. Beautiful idea that Steven is in a, a, an an incarnation embodiment of this idea that actually he's not pushing back in the way we would expect him to, but his reactions are about enabling the kingdom of God to come and infiltrate this situation and for God to do something. 

[00:32:17] in what looks like an apparently completely awful hopeless and desperately humiliating moment for the people of the way. 

[00:32:27] David: And, and I wonder maybe, and I'm curious as whether you use that language intentionally or maybe I was just looking for it, but, but that, that. That filtration and arrival of God's kingdom. So when I read verse 56, look, he said, I see heaven open and the son of man standing at the right hand of God. 

[00:32:48] I can't help but be drawn back to Daniel chapter seven and this huge discussion amongst scholarship about this son of man language, but side step stepping that for now. It just, it's interesting that Daniel. I saw one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven, and he came to the ancient one and was presented before him, and to him was given dominion and glory and kingship that all the people's, nations and languages should serve him. 

[00:33:14] His dominion is never lasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingship is one that will never be destroyed. 

[00:33:21] John: Beautiful.  

[00:33:23] David: So again, just notice in the nuance here. So, so, so they're furious. Steven's full of the Holy Spirit. I mean, it's all that we know about Steven is that Luke wants us to know that every time we meet Steven, he's full of the Holy Spirit. 

[00:33:37] That's how we met him in the first place. And it's, so, I, I love that little nuance, but he looks up and it almost is as if we start to see. This little illusion to Daniel now developing, right? That, that I looked up, I saw the glory of God, and I saw Jesus at the right hand of God. But then he states it, but it's this verse 57. 

[00:33:57] Then at this, they covered their ears, and I think that, so there's a reaction. There's the gnashing of the teeth to his sermon, but when he then pushes it, Into almost the Daniel Levin of level of vision that this kingdom is coming and this Jesus that I've told you about is with, is with the Father. And you get this level two reaction, which is, and so I think it's important for the reader not to miss that that. 

[00:34:26] This scene in verse 56 of Heaven in the Son of Man is deeply rooted in scripture as well. This is not, people don't hear that and go, well, that's a weird thing to see the, there's, there's statements about Jesus as the Messiah being made here. The statements about, you, know, we're now no longer talking about whether he's just a regular liberator to help us, he's now been elevated in this statement and connected to deeply held prophetic texts, isn't he? 

[00:34:57] John: Absolutely. No, absolutely love that. And, and and, and it does seem to explain this last little. Moment of madness really, isn't it? It it's at that, it's at that moment, okay, we've, we've had enough we, we, we, we could just about have held it together, but now he's pushed the blasphemy button right over the, and, and pushed us right over the edge. 

[00:35:22] And, and whether Steven does this deliberately or he is simply so consumed by the vision of what he sees, and he just says what he. And at that point, and again, we must be careful not to be too sentimental here, but at that point is he so consumed with what he's seen in this wonderful image of Jesus standing. 

[00:35:44] And it's, it's not a sitting image, which we are familiar with in the New Testament, this sort of finished completion image, is he standing as some people have reflected to receive Stephen, or is this the standing that actually this is all part of the ushering in now of, of this glorious revolution of truth and kingdom that we're doing? 

[00:36:04] You, you've got this gorgeous idea of standing, but is Steven so consumed with this vision that he, he become, Even unaware that in speaking this out, it has probably signed his death warrant. That that's it. It's, it's all over. And, and again, I don't wanna overcook that, I don't want to over sentimentalize that, but I am, I am drawn to the idea, David, of being so consumed with a vision of Jesus. 

[00:36:36] That at that moment your own safety becomes sort of, Irrelevant or, or not, not the priority it normally is for each of us. We, we live as, as people seeking to preserve ourselves. Here's Steven. And it's almost like now he's throwing caution to the wind, but it's not in a death wish way. I think he's doing that because he's consumed with this vision of Jesus. 

[00:37:04] He has seen Jesus and now he goes, hold on. Is what? and he gets this incredible reaction. And, and there was a little thought that struck me, David, just as you, as you mentioned, Phil, of the Holy Spirit. It just took me back to X one in this gorgeous little sideways like that. Of course, Jesus said, you'll be full of the Spirit and you'll be my witnesses. 

[00:37:23] And of course, the word witness sort of doubles up as not just witness of Jesus. It doubles up a sort of martyr, doesn't it? The idea that, and here's Stephen, not only witnessing in life of Jesus, but he's about to become the first martyr witness of Jesus, at least on the record in the Book of Acts, as a result of this, seen who Jesus is and being filled with the power of the holy. So in a very unexpected way, he now becomes a witness to this power and to this person and to this way. So that's quite striking really. 

[00:38:00] David: And so now you've got me thinking, and I'm not, I'm , I'm not prepped for this study that I'm about to offer . So there'll be no detail to it, but. It's interesting that in verse 58 of Acts seven, we do get the word martyr. But it's in reference to the people watching. This whole story happened and the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of the young man named Saul. 

[00:38:25] And we often tend to think of, oh, that's the people doing the stoning. But that might be the, the people doing the approving. But I'm trying to think of another point in the New Testament where the term martyr is used of, of the people doing the wrong things.  

[00:38:44] John: Oh, well, of course. 

[00:38:45] Well, actually, actually, okay, so, so I could be wrong here, but don't we have witnesses brought into the trial of Jesus? So, so, so you, you get, is that somewhere Matthew? Let me just check. I, I, I, yeah. So, so I've just found a reference there to Matthew 26 and the Heist priest rent his clothes or to his clothes, he's spoken blase. 

[00:39:09] What further need do we have of witnesses 

[00:39:13] David: Right. Okay. 

[00:39:14] John: seeing word Matthew 26. 

[00:39:15] David: Okay. Okay. Interesting. So, so my point, my point is maybe not as, not as strong as I was thinking it was . That's, that's why you shouldn't do points live 

[00:39:26] John: No. Well, I, I thought the point you were making was this idea of, here's, here's a group of people not necessarily involved in the stoning, but witnessing to the idea of what is going on and, and even bringing the accusations against Steven. I think that's, that's what's going on there too. 

[00:39:44] David: Yes. No, no. Absolutely. That is what I, I think is, is, is, is, is happening there. I just, I was curious about, about the irony of the disciples being called to be witnesses, and then here we have people witnessing. Their persecution and I was, I was just, I was interested in, in, in, in how that works. 

[00:40:05] Its way out because there's definitely something heavy going on in that passage because we, we bring in this character soul now, and it's like it's, it reminds me of that scene in the, the Lord of the Rings movies when. When, when, when Frodo comes into the bar and at the time the, the Aragon is over in the corner, but he's just a, a, a roaming person at this stage. 

[00:40:31] But the camera pans to him and even. Even if you don't know the story of the Lord of the Rings, you think, oh, he's a significant character. Why have they just pointed the camera at him? It's like this. Like why has Luke just mentioned, oh, and there was somebody looking after the coats named Saul, right? 

[00:40:48] John: Yeah, and, and actually I, I think the sets us up beautifully for Nick's time, David, because I, I think what you've got here is a an introduction to, to Saul who's about to become a zealous advocate against the way. 

[00:41:06] David: Yes. 
 

[00:41:06] John: He's gonna be evangelistic witness against the way he's gonna, he's gonna work zealously to try and destroy the church. 

[00:41:16] David: Hmm. 
 

[00:41:16] John: And contrast that to Steven, who is now this zealous witness of the way I, I do think you get in that passage. Two sides of mission and evangelism. I think you get a, a group of people missioning against the way and a group of people missioning for the way, and it's really striking to me that as Stephen disappears, Saul is introduced because I think you've got the seam. 

[00:41:43] Mentality, same spirit, same attitude in both men. And, and I think when Saul eventually meets Jesus on the road to Damascus all of that zealousness remains intact, but his focus and vision changes, and I think you've got two I I, I, I believe Saul and Steve and or Xi. Contemporaries. I think they're friends. 

[00:42:03] I think they know each other. I think that's, maybe that's part of the reason why Saul's not actively involved in the execution because this is a man that's not afraid to get blood on his hands, as we'll find out later in the book of Acts. But he doesn't participate here. Maybe it's because they really do know each other. 

[00:42:19] And that synagogue of Freedman, maybe Paul was very, very familiar Saul with all of that. So I, I think you've got two dynamics. Witness dynamics here, mission dynamics, and they're literally crossing over in colliding and and in Saul from X chapter eight onwards, we see him going one direction and mission witness and we see the church going another direction of mission and witness. 

[00:42:43] And I think that Luke beautifully ties those two things togethers We're about to enter into X chapter eight. 

[00:42:49] David: And there's also something, again beautiful in this story here with the soul introduction, that especially if you think about the conversation that we've had where you've got. This language of hell, this violence in the name of God. All of this sort of awful stuff happening. And this is actually the beginning of the story of, of the great missionary of Acts, right? 

[00:43:20] So, so there's even this subtle, and maybe I'm just living in my preacher's world too much here, John, but there's, there's this subtle beauty of. Of Saul being kind of rescued out of the hellishness of this moment, right? And so that, that genuinely the truth of that, is there really a place that the hand of God cannot reach? 

[00:43:42] You know that even in this scene, which Luke is painted, using the most, graphic of language. We, we find Saul and he's gonna become this huge missionary. And, and so this scene you would write off and say, well, there's the, I I'm thinking about the, the disruption of the Holy Spirit. Even as a reader, there's a tendency to read this scene and go, and there is the people who are working badly against God, and there is the people, Stephen, who is. 

[00:44:09] Working for the Kingdom of God, and it's very easy to go. So there's your insiders and there's your outsiders, and yet the Holy Spirit is looking at this story. And in the very group that we would call the outsiders, he says, oh, there's Saul 

[00:44:24] John: Mm. 
 

[00:44:25] David: And so you really see, again this theme that we've talked about. 

[00:44:28] The Holy Spirit is just not going to categorize even when we use the language of hell to describe a group of people, the Holy Spirit can still reach, save rescue. And, and commission. I mean, it's, it's stunning really at that level if you're happy that that narrative's there 

[00:44:45] John: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And of course, you, you, I, I can't hear, I can't but hear the echo of the words of Jesus, that unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, Remains only a single tea. But if it dies and you just feel that the way Luke has constructed the story and beautifully put this together and highlighted the characters, that as Stephen literally gives up his spirit to Jesus, Saul is introduced into the story. 

[00:45:13] And that in the dine of one seed we're about to see an explosion of more seeds in the name of Jesus, and by the power of the. 

[00:45:23] David: Look at even the poetry of it. John, I was just thinking about, the, they laid their coat at the feet of a young man named Saul while they're, so there's your intro. While they're stoning him, Stephen prayed. Lord Jesus received my spirit. do not hold the sin against them, which actually is a very much an echo to me of of Jesus on the cross as well. 

[00:45:44] And we've talked a few times about the echoes of Jesus's trial in this particular story. Now you've got the echo of Jesus's death, 

[00:45:52] John: Hmm, 
 

[00:45:52] David: and then the next line in Saul approved with their killing him. So there's a young man named Saul. Steven says, do not hold this sin against them. And Saul approved their killing And Saul. 

[00:46:02] Becomes almost the fulfillment of Steven's prayer. The, the, the, the, the Lord Jesus did not hold the sin against the, I mean, I, I'm, I'm just, I'm just riffing off my enjoyment of the text here, so forgive me cuz it's moving me. But there's something gorgeous about that and as if s. Luke's genius as a writer is he's divided the intro to Saul and Saul's approval between this prayer almost to say to you, Hey, this prayer gets answered. 

[00:46:30] Right. Stephen's last words become true. I mean, it's, I love that. If that's okay for me to say 

[00:46:37] John: That is more than Okay. I think that's magnificent and I, I, I think that's a perfect place to finish that podcast. Absolutely. Gorgeous. 

[00:46:46]