Trouble Breaks Out | Disruptive Presence 30

In which John and David discuss the tensions that quickly arise for the church in Acts 8. the death of Stephen serves as a catalyst for a violent persectution that breaks out against the church. Although the terrible situation doesn't entirely do what it's intended to do. It doesn't quite stop the Spirit from working.

Episode 87 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 30

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Transcript

 Transcript autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] David: Okay, John. So we left our story last time, right at the death of Stephen in Acts chapter seven. And then we had this, just this little half sentence, which is half of chapter eight, verse one that introduces soul. To us, it's not, it's not a grand introduction. It always reminds me of one of those little moments in a movie where the camera pans to a particular person and you think, oh, I think they're significant 

[00:01:19] John: Yes, it is. It is an incredible sort of moment which sort of leads us into this almost a new movement, isn't it? It's a, it's like a, a gear shift again in the narrative of the commentary of acts. And it's it's, it's a significant introduction. And, and of course in my, in my Bible, your Bible, It, it kicks off chapter eight, although it really is absolutely seamlessly connected to the previous narrative, but it's it feels like we're shifting gear again. 

[00:01:49] David: The whole thing seems to come quite transitionary actually. This, this story that we've been telling and, and I almost feel like. This moment in the story is very decisive. This moment of change that now that there is actually, there's these two groups of people, one, trying to follow out, Jesus the Messiah. 

[00:02:12] Another not sure about what to do about Jesus, the Messiah. And these, these little subgroups as they are aren't, they are kind of battling with each. But now it's become violent. Now it's moved into death, which is a significant transition, isn't it? 

[00:02:30] John: It certainly is. It certainly is. And of course it seems to accelerate the sort of the original Acts one eight narrative that we had. Where you'll receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, you'll be by witnesses in Jerusalem. Well, we've seen a lot of that up to this moment. It's been virtually. 

[00:02:48] Almost entirely and completely Jerusalem centric, the narrative, and we've seen incredible things happen, and there seems to have been this tolerance of this new group. Some, some clashes moments before the Sanhedrin. A couple of the apostles getting a bit of, a bit of a beating, but, but it doesn't look like it's spilled into anything significant. 

[00:03:09] There seems to be a tolerance of this new group. And maybe, maybe that's the influence of Gail again, sort of saying, look, watch and see, but this is the tipping point moment and Steven's execution. And then what comes from that? It, it really is quite significant and we see. The X one eight narrative sort of kick in. 

[00:03:30] So as we're going to see together, looking at Philip, we move into Samaria and Judea. There there's a, there's a movement towards wider Judea into Samaria. And then of course beyond that, we're moving into the ends of the earth. So it, it, there is an acceleration here, but. Probably not. As the apostles envisaged it, it would happen. 

[00:03:50] So this seems to be something that the providentially God is orchestrating in order to move the church out of its Jerusalem centric mindset and into a wider and global understanding. 

[00:04:04] David: There's also an interesting little contrast if you've been following this story the way that we've been talking about this story. If you think all the way back, but it's actually only chapter five. It just feels like it was a very long time ago that we recorded that, that part because of the. the Slow pace that we're taking. But if you remember something we said in, in chapter five that was fascinating, that you have this, this death of Ananias and Safira. but the death is not at the hands of the apostles, the death. And so we talked about how even in this new way of being of being alive, I suppose at some level in this, this way of following Jesus, that God is doing some pretty shocking things. 

[00:04:46] But the apostles are not the ones inaction it, they are not the dealers of death for one of a, of a, of a better term. But here we have almost this hint back to this sort of old way of, of meeting out justice, that we are gonna take death into our old own hands. And there is just, if you wanted to see it, a little contrast there between the two ways with Saul as the pinnacle that. 

[00:05:10] That we see how God wants to work with I'm trying to think of the right word to use here, John, but with people who are trying to cause damage to the system. And we see then how Saul wants to work with people who are. Causing damage to the system. And it actually, if you just step back and hold those two chapters next to each other, you do have this. 

[00:05:31] I think Luke is showing the, this contrast of the two ways.  

[00:05:34] John: It's brilliant. I I think it's a brilliant observation, David. Really helpful. And I think in Stephen and Saul, you do get in two people that sort of dynamic contrast as well. They almost are representative in personalities of this tension. And, and I couldn't help but think about the words of Jesus as you were reflecting on that, where Jesus re refers to sort of new. 

[00:06:00] in old wine skins and if you try to put something new into something old, both will be destroyed. And it feels a little bit like there's been an attempt by the apostles to were possible remain within the wine skin that they have been raised in, that they know so well that they respect and love of. 

[00:06:25] David: Hmm 
 

[00:06:26] John: is no exception of that. 

[00:06:27] Of course. I think Stephen desperately is profoundly and was profoundly respectful of his Jewishness, but there's a recognition, hold on a minute. This is now becoming something that. I don't think it was meant to be. And we are, we, we, we need to break out of this to use the, the Jesus expression, this wine skin, in order for this new wine to be everything it was meant to be. 

[00:06:54] And I think in the tussle between Saul now and the church and the echo of Steven, In his great sermon. I think they are both representative of the struggle of those two ways now together, which literally clashes, it explodes in this, in this mini passage we're about to read together. There is this incredible, I think Dr. 

[00:07:17] Luke writes this brilliantly and brings us to this really dramatic tipping point moment. With Saul and Steven standing, not literally, but certainly in terms of the story standing side by side. And this is an incredible observation, 

[00:07:33] David: so let's jump into the text then, John. We've got a massive three verses today and and, and, and technically, technically it's actually two and a half, but let's read the full three just to just to make sure everybody gets their money's worth from us 

[00:07:46] John: Let's do it. Absolutely. Come on. Come on. Sh. Shall I read? You want me to, are you reading? 

[00:07:51] David: Yes, no, you, you go ahead and read. 

[00:07:52] This is Acts chapter eight, verse one through to three. 

[00:07:57] John: Okay, so it says this and Saul approved of their killing him. And the hymn there, of course we know is Stephen, on that day, a great persecution broke out against the church in Jeru. And all except the apostles were scattered through a Judea and Samaria, godly man buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him, but Saul began to destroy the church. 

[00:08:27] Going from house to house. He dragged off both men and women and put them in prison. And, and I know we're, we're sort of, we're gonna focus in on news verses, but I love the little extra from Luke there. Those who had been scattered, preached the word of God wherever they went. It's a, it's 

[00:08:47] David: Mm 
 

[00:08:47] John: atic little shift here, isn't it? 

[00:08:49] Beautiful stuff. 

[00:08:50] David: little little trailer for the next episode right there at the end. 

[00:08:54] John: on. 
 

[00:08:56] David: It's actually quite interesting how Luke stitches all of that together. I've not done the research of English translations to see how all of the different English translations break up this text, but it's actually quite hard to put headings into this sequence from chapter seven through, because it's, Luke, I think, wants you to see the, , the death of Stephen, the arrival of Saul. 

[00:09:20] Spreading persecution, the spreading word. , if you look at the fact that we've got this internal debate between Hellistic Jews, Who are suspicious of Jesus and, and Hellistic Jews who are Jesus followers. I think that's what we've sort of, kind of framed it as. And you move from that to, then Saul, within a few verses we're in Samaria and then a few verses later as we'll get to, in a few weeks time, we've got this Ethiopia. 

[00:09:55] Man, and, and, and the gospel is now spreading down into Africa and, and, and so it's quite, it's quite fascinating actually, how so much is happening just in the narrative here, that all the stories are threaded into each other. 

[00:10:10] John: It's, it is really, really outstanding writing and I, I think X chapter eight represents as we've strongly hinted at already, the, we now start to see the outworking of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth, because literally by the end of chapter eight, we're sort of all for, if you like, areas or all four things named by Jesus are not. 

[00:10:35] Jerusalem. Totally. That's, that's, there's been tremendous success even though this persecutions breaking out. And then we now get the Judea Samaria context, and of course the Ethiopian Munich by the end of chapter eight is, is representing a, a absolutely dynamic gentile global context. So we're by the end of chapter eight, we are in no doubt that. 

[00:10:58] Local community of the way centered in Jerusalem is now on a relentless global trajectory. And I think chapter eight is the gorgeous, magnificent tipping point of all of that. But it begins in a very, very troubled way. I mean, we, we, we've no hint that the, the magnificent things we're going to read by the end of chapter eight 

[00:11:22] David: Hmm. 
 

[00:11:23] John: are. 
 

[00:11:23] Are there, there's none of those are hinted in the first few verses of chapter eight. This is a really, it's like storm clouds are coming. It's a dark thing that we're introduced to, but by the end of chapter eight, those clouds have well and truly been dispersed by the power of the way and the power of the gospel. 

[00:11:41] David: It's interesting how the theme continues about the, the driving power of the Holy Spirit in this process. Like there is no. There is no missions school for these disciples. There's no planning process there. There's no shadow shadow another missionary around for a little while, while you learn, it is quite literally a dispersion, isn't it? 

[00:12:04] It's a, it, it's, they're, they're being thrown out by all of this, by whatever means, seems to be happening. And I always feel that you can, you sense that in the way Luke is framing the whole story? The, the, the. The Christians are not intending this story to go like this, but I love the way Luke tells the story in such a way that this is, you can see the Holy Spirit is clearly working through all of this stuff regardless, and we're actually getting. What Jesus always wanted, even though he, I'm not saying Jesus wanted the persecution, but exactly as you said, the gospel was supposed to go to these areas. So there's this profound irony of. the, the death of Stephen, the persecution of the church leads the gospel into Samaria, which is exactly where Jesus had told them to go with it. 

[00:13:01] But of course, you know anybody that's read John chapter four, and it comes up often in the church sermon cycle. So I'm sure some people have heard sermons about it as well. We have Jesus meeting this Samaritan woman and perhaps we talk about Samaria a little more in the next. But you know, hold that in your mind as you're listening that there's a little bit of, if there was a soundtrack to ax, there would definitely be a little music intensity when it says they were scattered into Samaria 

[00:13:29] John: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And and isn't it interesting that, that Luke says to us that all except the apostles were scattered? So we are, I mean, we've, no, lots of, lots of guesswork or, or. Intelligent guesstimation has been made of the size of the Jerusalem Church. I, I certainly don't wanna lean in that. 

[00:13:49] I have no confidence in that, but, but we are amazing that across the city it could be hundreds, maybe even in totality, thousands of people. If it's in the hundreds, of course, then. Then we are looking at hundreds of people, if not thousands of people, with the exception of the apostles scattered here. 

[00:14:10] And and I, I love the, I love the sense of the word scattering here, David. I, I, for me, it's just, it, it sounds, it sounds sort of random. Terrible. But that, that idea of the diaspora, it's, it's that, and at the heart of it, it's this idea of sewing. So it's, it's there. There's a sewing to the scattering. 

[00:14:34] And I love this picture that. In the diaspora, in the dispersion of these believers, the scattering, which feels like it's it's something terrible happening to them. And it is of course, at one level, but but also leaning into the sewing inside of the interpretation of that word diaspora. It's, it's like, There's, it does feel like there's a providential dynamic to this, that it's feet, it's like, yeah, they're being scattered by persecution, but is there another set that we could read this? 

[00:15:04] They're being sown by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is sewing them into the harvest field. He is sewing them into Judea, sewing them into Samaria, and certainly if you follow. Track into chapter eight with Philip. It certainly feels like that. It certainly feels more of a, hold on a minute, this, this almost feels like there's a plan here, even though we know this wasn't a plan, that wasn't a strategic plan. 

[00:15:30] It's a sort of a reactive plan that's happening as we go along. But, but I love the idea and I've, I've just meditated on that, David, that the it, if you look at this from the, from the Saul dynamic, then it's scattering. Wow. We've scattered them. If you look at it from the Holy Spirit dynamic, no, no. We're sewing. 

[00:15:51] We're sewing, we're sewing them into the world. And I love this, the power of this, the juxtaposition of this idea that often what an enemy can do to destroy the things of God. God can sometimes take that and use. And we, we've seen that in our parables. Even the parable of the weeds, haven't we? The idea of weeds being sewn in the midst of a harvest. 

[00:16:12] And it feels a bit. There's, there's two ways to read this. Terrible catastrophic scattering, which seems to lean credence to the enemies of the gospel. But the sewing, which seems to lean into our interpretation of the disruptive presence of the spirit, is the Holy Spirit at some level align this disruption in order to sow the, the followers of the way into the. 

[00:16:37] David: , I, I love that. And I was thinking as you were talking about all of the, the language around the scattering in Jesus, but even some of Jesus' very specific language where he talks about the. You strike the shepherd and the flock will be scattered in, in, in Mark chapter 14, in verse 27. 

[00:16:57] That is and it's, it's not exactly the same word. It's a derivative of that word. So it's, it's kind of grouped in the same little sort of meaning of scattering words. I mean, literally it's, it's spelled marginally differently. So I think you can see that there's almost a. But, but a strangely restorative thing cuz when you first encounter language like this in mark 14, you tend towards reading it negatively strike the shepherd and the flock will be scattered. 

[00:17:23] What turns round, I think as the surprise is that this is what's supposed to happen. The flock are scattered, but the flock have become shepherds themselves. And so there's, there's kind of, there's something kind of, kind of neat going on there,  

[00:17:39] John: Gorgeous. I, I, I do like that and I, I, I, I wouldn't, as you and I sometimes say together, I wouldn't necessarily build my house on that, but I wouldn't take it off the table. I think there is a strong idea and nuanced here that, that this is not simply a random catastrophe, but there is the guiding, disrupting. 

[00:18:01] Influencing power of the spirit that is sewing these, these gorgeous believers. So it looks like Paul, it looks like Saul is the one doing the scattering, 

[00:18:11] the hint in the text is maybe, maybe God is doing the sewing. And I, and I just, I like the tension of that. I like the tension of that. 

[00:18:19] David: Ab, absolutely. And, and there's one thing that against worth, worth noting, is that some translations, remember, you remember way back when, when, when Gael had stood up in front of the San Adrian and was sort of saying, wait a minute, let's just be careful what we're doing here. He talked about Judas, the Galilean band who are in revolt. 

[00:18:39] And if you're reading in the niv, which a lot of us do, it says that he was killed and his followers were scattered. But what's fascinating is Luke doesn't use the same word. So the word that Jesus talks about, about Strike the shepherd in the flock will be scattered, is in the same, is is essentially the same word that we, we meet here about the scattering. 

[00:19:00] But it's not the same scattering that happens when Judas the Galilee. And again, you know nothing to build your house on there. But I think it's interesting that, that Luke, when he's writing, wants to just choose his language a little carefully and not make contrasts that he that he doesn't want you to see. 

[00:19:17] There's 

[00:19:17] John: No, I like that. A script. Love that. 

[00:19:20] David: It's fascinating as well, how I, I, I've been thinking a little bit about the severity of this persecution and I wonder if it's, it's almost surprising if I can say it like that. When you actually look at what's going on in this story, it's kind of surprising at this stage. you are even getting this strength of persecution, right? Do, do you know what I mean by that? John? Did you get that sense that it's not absolutely clear? Why is everybody so upset about this? Because I think we now, from our side of history have a tendency to go, whoa, it's because they were claiming Jesus was the Messiah. 

[00:20:02] But Asile shows this is not actually an overly controversial thing to claim. And obviously there's, there's, there's more to it than this. But yeah. Before I say anything else, I'm just curious, do you feel that sense of the kind of escalation of this is almost surprising in the story? 

[00:20:20] John: it totally is. And, and, and again. I look at Saul as the sort of incarnation of that. When, when we meet Saul in chapter seven, end of chapter seven, there's a, he's there, but the language is very passive. , isn't it? They, they, they put their garments at at his feet. Saul gives approval to the execution. 

[00:20:44] We, we assume from that some sort of casting vote or nod of approval within that. So, so everything about Saul up to this moment is quite passive. 

[00:20:56] then, and then it equals, it goes ballistic. I mean, it absolutely, I mean, language the E S V uses language like Saul was ravaging. 

[00:21:06] The church and, and it's a very, very strong idea here. In fact, my, my sort of research shows it's, it's the only time this word that's translated in the e s v Ravaging, N I v, destroyed it's the only time it's used. In the New Testament, it's a very, very unusual and a very, very strong word. Some translations have wreak havoc, so, so Saul himself, David seems to go from, yeah. 

[00:21:35] The closer at his feet. Yeah. Yeah. I think he's a blasphemer he probably needs to die to. Right. That's destroy all the followers of the way. That's like, it goes from sort of first gear to. Sixth gear in, in seconds. It's, it's, we we're in the overdrive. And it does feel really surprising the, the level of the persecution which now kicks off. 

[00:21:59] David: , here's, here's my, my take on this, think about the development of how the story has gone as we've said before, we're now about a debate within. At the Stephen Point within Hellistic Jews. Right. So it's, it's a, it's a particular group of people who have, who have moved their trajectory towards Israel, towards Jerusalem. 

[00:22:24] It's a group of people who potentially by some are perceived to not be. Entirely proper, right? Like if, if, and I, and I'm being cautious with my 

[00:22:36] John: No, no, I know what you 

[00:22:37] David: even in the narrative, there's like, well, there was Hebraic Jews and there was Hellenistic Jews, and this extreme development has happened amongst the Hellenistic Jews. 

[00:22:46] And even, Saul Paul, we know that he comes from, from, not from Jerusalem, even though he's moved his way there for, for various aspects of. Now I, I was thinking about this. There's, there's some work by a couple of sociologists that I they've got this the Stegeman brothers, two brothers who both decided to become Christian sort of early Christianity sociologist, what an incredible family Christmas dinner that must have been, that they had in their house. 

[00:23:11] But they , they, they wrote this fascinating book called the Jesus. And I, it's a heavy read, right? But, but they make a point in it, which I think is really fascinating. They say if you look closely at the early persecutions that happen in acts and stuff like that, you say they, they happen at two levels, right? 

[00:23:29] They say that they're basically, they are controversy over religious content and conviction, but also, and this is the really key thing they say, but also the social manifestations and social consequences. of these controversies. Right? So what they're essentially saying is that the reason you get the persecutions happening, it's not just because of what everybody believes, right? 

[00:23:54] And I love this. They basically are saying it's because of the way that these people lived as a result of this, right? So, but, but even then, still at this moment, you're a little bit. Well, I'm not quite sure I'm even seeing hugely controversial lifestyles. Like what have we had controversially so far? 

[00:24:13] People have given up money, right? And they're helping the poor. All of this stuff's deeply rooted in, in, in Torah. It, it's not controversial. What for me is interesting. It's, and I think this is part of how Luke's telling this story to help us. It's the next chapter where the church almost effortlessly moves into Samaria. 

[00:24:35] Effortlessly. I mean, I think there's a huge verse coming in a, in a, in a few episodes time where the Ethiopian eunuch asks, and what should stop me for being baptized? Right? And, and the answer to that question is there should be lots of things stop him from being baptized, but Philip's answer is, is to baptize him, right? 

[00:24:55] So, I think this starts to get into the mindset of why we've got such a violent persecution, because if you've got a group of people. You hear this in church life actually all the time. If you've perhaps, been in a, like a highly traditional church context and, and like I, I have encountered that at various points in my life and what you hear from people. 

[00:25:18] Sometimes if somebody comes along and really presents the message of Jesus, he's grace. You'll hear somebody say, oh, but after all the things that I've done, that sounds too. Right, and so think about it. You've got this group of Hellistic Jews who are potentially being perceived as slightly outsiders compared to the Hebraic Jews. 

[00:25:41] Now, within this group, there's another group developed that go, Jesus is the Messiah, and they seem to be open to the concept of welcome in everybody. Right. So all of a sudden, all that hard fought distinction, all that hard fought separation, all those nice clean boundary lines that you have, people like Stephen are coming along and saying, no, God doesn't live in a house. 

[00:26:02] God doesn't , live in a temple that we built. God's always been for everybody, and although that's that message isn't explicitly, Raised in the arguments. It's like once this persecution happened, it's like Luke, Luke pulls the covers off and says, look what's actually happening. And I can see that being a huge source of tension that, that I'm, I'm of the opinion, John, and I've said far too much. 

[00:26:28] So I'm not gonna be quiet and let you respond. respond, but I'm of the opinion that nobody ever. , and, and I say this, it sounds controversial. I I don't mean it to be, I don't think anybody ever gets in trouble for what they believe in in all of history. I think what people get in trouble for is what they believe makes them do 

[00:26:51] Right. And, and I, and that's what I think we then start to see in the chapter that we're diving into now. 

[00:26:57] John: yes, yes. And I, I, I would go with that completely. And, and I think Steven represents that. I think Steven is representing someone who. Realizes that if we're taking the trajectory of the way seriously and the teaching of Jesus seriously and the understanding of TaNaK that Jesus has left his followers with seriously, then the trajectory has to be outward. 

[00:27:22] The trajectory has to be beyond. Jerusalem as controversial and as uncomfortable as that is for Steven, that's an easier idea to understand cuz he's come from outside of Jerusalem. But then for those that he's speaking to, including Saul, a native of Tarsis, 

[00:27:39] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:39] John: though educated in Jerusalem, Saul sits in the category of ironically Haaz Jew, even though he is a Hebrew of the Hebrews, I mean in terms of his origins he set, he definitely sits in the Hellenized world though later on he identifies himself absolutely as someone raised in Hebrew context. 

[00:27:58] So Paul at Saul is, is totally sensitive to this. , and I think that might explain his personal reaction to it as well. David. I think this isn't just a theology reaction. I think there is a reaction to, hold on. Saul's a clever man. He can see where this is going as well. And therefore, isn't it interesting then what is Saul trying to do? 

[00:28:22] He's trying to stop this community from spreading. And ironically, of course, He becomes a catalystic. Yeah. E exactly. He becomes a catalyst for the spreading up, but of course he is trying to clamp down the spread because if this thing does go where Steven is saying it's going, Then it's suddenly out of control. 

[00:28:46] And isn't it interesting? Eventually, and we'll meet Saul again in chapter nine. Where do we meet him? We, we meet him going, going global. We, we meet him going outside of the boundaries of Israel. Because he understands if we don't shut this stone before it gets beyond our grasp, it's then completely out of control. 

[00:29:07] And I think Saul recognizes the missional trajectory of Steven's argument and therefore reacts profoundly violently against this, these people of the way in order to stop them. Scattering stop them moving to different parts of the world. And so, so I, I think that fits really well, David, and I think Steven is the embodiment of that. 

[00:29:31] I think he is representing the behavior of that theology that we're not going to stop at the borders of Jerusalem. 

[00:29:38] David: But at the same time, it's also interesting, I wonder what you thought of it, but verse two, devout men buried Stephen and made loud lamentation over him, and I was reflecting on. This use of this phrase, devout men. And, and again, anybody that's listened to us for more than a few minutes will, will know that when we're reading a text wherein, the, the, the, the term for people is, is vague. 

[00:30:03] We always would think about that as people are humans or brothers and sisters, men and women. But here the text is very specifically men, right? It's not, so quite regularly, maybe I didn't say that clearly, but quite regularly you get this term in the New Testament, anthropo, it literally just means humans and, and, and there's a tradition coming back to the King James to just translate, translate that as men. 

[00:30:26] But really it means. Men and women, but this one is very specifically men. And I just wondered if this is a little hint towards, even in all of this persecution, there's still significant people within this community, within this, this community of Hellenistic Jews who are, who are. It's not an insider's outsider's conversation. 

[00:30:51] I think that's what I'm saying to say. There is a conversation, and I'm using that word very loosely, happening within this group of Jewish people about Jesus and some devout people within this group. Right. Bear in mind, this is a, this is a conversation that this is a storyline that started with a edk and, and the, the, it's. 

[00:31:10] everybody against the church. There's clearly there there's factions going on within here, and some of these devout people are actually, are actually burying Stephen, which suggests some level of following and I would say 

[00:31:24] John: Indeed. And, and, and not just burying him. I mean, n I v it's a gorgeous, poetic phrase, mourned him deeply. I mean, literally lamented him greatly. Great lament. So this isn't just, this isn't just all we, a respectful burial here of Devotement. This is, these are people who realize, hold on. 

[00:31:43] We've lost a great man 

[00:31:45] What's just happened is not right. This is, I think, I think in the burying of Steven by these devout men. I think there's a double message here that there's a protest here. There's an identification of saying we've done something that shouldn't have been done. Th this is. 

[00:32:03] This is wrong. And I, I think this also becomes a catalyst for some who are moving towards the way, and maybe this is a further nudge for them but also it's a, it's a deep, a deep respect for Steven. So whoever is burying him, whoever these devout men are, there is great lament for Steven. And I, I couldn't help but hear the echo of John the Baptist. 

[00:32:26] There's a, there's a lovely little sort of hint to that it you, when John is executed, Matthew tells us his disciples came and took the body and buried it. Now you get that, that feels very respectful, 

[00:32:40] David: mm-hmm. 

[00:32:41] John: but I, I saw the contrast between okay, the disciples of John bury him, but devote men, mourn deeply for 

[00:32:50] David: Mm. 
 

[00:32:51] John: It's not, it's not an interesting, I I, I mean, it, it's not fair to make those comparisons, but, but I couldn't, when I read the Steven story, I couldn't help but think of John's execution. I was drawn to it and the impact it had on Jesus. But, but I noticed when I looked at the, the contrast is that, is that they buried John, but they mourned deeply for. There's something really, and I think there's something profoundly spiritual, emotional, psychological happening in this moment. This is a really, really huge moment and and we can sometimes reduce it down to you. Oh yeah, it's the story of the first martyr and move on, but actually something deeps happening here, something very, very felt is going. 

[00:33:39] Through the execution of Stephen. And I think something, my little theory, and again, I wouldn't build my house on it, but I think something of the feltness of this, the emotion of this, the power of this, I think it's getting under Saul's skin and I think ultimately when we meet Saul in chapter nine, in that moment when Jesus confronts him, I think Saul's been fighting some. 

[00:34:03] in himself. That may have been awakened in this moment with Stephen. Because something deep here is happening with the death of Stephen, beyond the execution of a troublemaker or a blasphemer, 

[00:34:15] is that, is that too much or are you, wait, what do you, 

[00:34:18] David: Yeah, I'm, I mean, it's the, the whole question, and, and this would be a big conversation for, for when we get to him, I, and I think it would be a fun conversation for us to have on the podcast around where, Paul fits, and I always feel, and so my kind of highlighted with Paul is that you want to hold two things in tension with, with Saul or to use his Greek name, Paul, that, that you've got this sense that he's definitely, Luke is wanting you to see something's going on here. 

[00:34:51] Right? Something's stirring, but you want to think about that without, in any. Removing weight from the fact that for Paul himself, when he tells the story, like in the Galatians, or even as you see it in Acts, when we get to that point, this is a thunderbolt , that he did not. So I, one of the challenges for all of us when we talk about our coming to Jesus is when we look at the story backwards, it makes a lot more sense than it did at the time. 

[00:35:17] And that's kind of where, what I love about what you're saying is that if we stop Paul, at this point in this, in the. I don't think he would agree with you, right, . But if we, if we stop Paul later in his life, I think he for sure would say, oh, something's going on this, the Holy Spirit's doing something there. 

[00:35:34] But I wasn't aware of it at the time, which I, I think there's that, that's how I would articulate that, John. But 

[00:35:39] John: that's brilliant. Yeah, that's very helpful. That's very helpful. I, I think that helps maybe square a little circle for me cuz because I do, later on I do feel something I, I, I have the theory that Saul and Steven are contemporaries, not, not just in the story. I think they know each other through study. 

[00:35:56] I think if they are rubbing shoulders with the synagogue of the freed men, Saul and Steven have had. Met each other. I would be shocked if they haven't spoken to each other. 

[00:36:08] David: Hmm, well, these communities are not big enough. We've got to, we've got to, not think of these as sort of, 60, 70,000 people groups. These are, this is a, so yes, a hundred percent,  

[00:36:20] John: And, and, and, and that could be maybe one of the reasons why Saul doesn't forgive my language, doesn't get his hands dirty. With Steven, it's one thing, it's one thing to destroy them, it's another thing to destroy someone,  

[00:36:34] isn't it? I, I, I mean, I, I remember Jonathan Sack speaking about violence and any of religion, and he said one of the great, one of the great tricks is you turn your enemies into them, you dehumanize them. 

[00:36:48] you, you make them a generic lump. And now that's Jonathan. Sex would never stoop to that sort of language. But, but but, but it helps me, I, I look at people not like me, and I reduce them to them, and then it's easier to persecute them. It's easier to hit them. It's easier not to like them. 

[00:37:07] David: yes. 
 

[00:37:07] John: If Steven and Saul really did know each other, maybe there's a little bit of, oh, I, I don't agree with Steven. 

[00:37:15] I'm totally against Steven, but hey, I'm not ready to literally kill this man. Yet, we know later on he's not afraid to get blood on his hands. And, and, and maybe, maybe the them kicks in then. I don't know, David, maybe I'm overcooking that, but, but I'm trying to understand the dynamics of someone who, right at the end of Steven's execution goes ballistic. 

[00:37:37] He goes like, totally, 100% destroy the church. And yet when he has a chance to kill somebody who's, who's the blasphemer, he doesn't pick the. 

[00:37:47] David: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:37:48] John: so, so maybe there's something deeply, deeply personal there. And Steven has made more of an impact as a man than, than even the sermon gives him credit for. I 

[00:37:59] David: Yes. Yes. What you're saying there, like so many profound pieces of that, the dehumanization, like, I often think about that even theologically that. Let us make humans in our image is the, is the line from Genesis and almost all human conflict, I believe, involves us having to ignore that 

[00:38:27] John: Yes, for sure. 

[00:38:28] David: And, and to some extent the, the depth of the conflict will be defined by the level to which you're willing to ignore that and uh, and, and so in an argument where I just call you a name, it's a minor dehumanization, and in another argument where I kill you, it's a, it's a greater one. 

[00:38:49] If it's issues of racism or sexism or anything like that, it's all dehumanizing and, 

[00:38:55] John: it 
 

[00:38:56] David: So no. So I think I, that's profound, John, , and, and actually that, that is just, I, I wanna say something almost playfully here, but with a very, Sting in the tail. So I just noticed something as well. 

[00:39:07] I wondered if, so we have these devout men, right? And this, this is kind of broadly aligned to what you're saying, but in a slightly different tone. You have these devout men and it, it's not humans, it's, it's, It's Andress is the Greek word, it's definitely, it's males, right? But of course the whole go back to chapter seven, brothers and fathers. 

[00:39:27] Steven said, cuz he's in, he's in this group and it's a male group, right? This is not a space that women go, so it is not a space that women are welcomed into. Right? So it's, it's it, you've literally got a chapter for the whole of chapter seven. There are no. Right. And you, if and, and a little bit of study, you spend a couple of minutes on Google, you'll find how easy that is to find that. 

[00:39:48] That's true. There's no women and devout men. Take Stephen and bury him. Right? But notice verse three. Saul was ravaging the church by entering houses after house, dragging off both men. 

[00:40:00] John: both men and women? 

[00:40:01] David: and women, right? And again, you couldn't build anything from this one particular verse, but if you hold that in mind, you do start to see another of the controversies of the early church that the women were. 

[00:40:16] Also perpetrators of the gospel. And it's a little hint that we, I don't hear people talk about very often, but it's little hint that after this very male journey that you've had of all these men making all these decisions about what's right and wrong, but women have been practicing the gospel. To an extent that that they are required to be imprisoned. 

[00:40:36] And so it's a little subtle hint again from Luke. And, and I know that you talk about it in Luke's gospel, to Great depth, but it's another very classic Luke and hint towards the full inclusion of women as, as, as equals that, you can argue all, women weren't preaching in the early church. 

[00:40:52] Well, wait a minute. They were doing enough to get put in prison for it. Right. And, and, and I mean, I just, I, I couldn't let it go without just spotting that one, John, cuz I 

[00:41:02] John: was b. 

[00:41:02] David: I think it's great. 

[00:41:03] John: brilliant, I I think it's a brilliant observation. I, I had never seen that verse in that trajectory before. I'd never, I'd never read. Men and women put in prison in the trajectory of the all maleness of chapter seven. That's a brilliant observation. It really is. That's just absolutely outstanding. 

[00:41:22] And again, it shows another dynamic contrast to the way that the, the new wine of this new way is definitely not going to fit. The old wine skins of the old way. And I think that's a gorgeous, gorgeous observation in the context of of even a terrible moment of persecution. Brilliant.