Simon and Peter | Disruptive Presence 32

In which John and David discuss Simon and his desire to "buy" the Holy Spirit. The strange story of a magic man's encounter with the gospel and the Holy Spirit has much to say to us about the church today.

We mentioned Mark Baker's book in this episode. You can read about "Centered Set Church" here: https://www.centeredsetchurch.com/

Episode 89 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 32

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Transcript

Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com 

[00:00:00] David: Well, John, we left. Our listeners on edge with our story of what is maybe going wrong with Simon. He has quite a impressive resume. I have never been given a resume that says the people said This man is the power of God called great. So, so he's but you know, to be fair to him, he's encountered the proclamation of Jesus from Philip in Acts chapter eight. 

[00:01:19] as far as we can tell. He seems to have stepped in and believed and been baptized. But there's just this little hint that we saw in verse 13 that he might just maybe be focused more on Philip and his signs than he should be. So we're gonna jump into the second half of that story now today, and just see how this unravels a little bit and how that helps us. 

[00:01:42] John: Indeed in Indeed. So I'll, I'll jump in. Verse 14, chapter eight, and it says this, when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they made it receive the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them. 

[00:02:05] They had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the spirit was given at the lane on of hands of the apostles, he offered them money and said, give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. 

[00:02:31] Peter answered me, your money perish with you because you thought you could buy the gift of God with. You have no part or share in this ministry because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 

[00:02:51] For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin. Wow. Then Simon answered, pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me. After they had further proclaimed the word of the Lord and testified about Jesus, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages. 

[00:03:16] Wow. 
 

[00:03:18] David: It's a, it's a serious, it's a serious story with so many sort of layers to it. And I, I just, I, I, I, I'm alluded to this in the last episode, John, and, and I, I wanna keep it on the table in this one. I think Simon has. A function right to us, which is that that, that we can find this in our own lives. 

[00:03:45] I think we can find this story in contemporary Christianity. I don't think we should dismiss this as just one old story that happened in the olden times. Luke is telling us this story in particularly this detail because he wants us to pay attention to I, I think. This idea of the, the utility of the holy. 

[00:04:08] Right that Simon sees the world actually. I mean, at some level, Simon sees the world. Like a lot of us in the modern West see the world. Where's the opportunity to make money? Like I have been in seminars where they've, where I've heard Christians talk about or need to have entrepreneurial approaches to the kingdom and, and, and all this sort of stuff. 

[00:04:32] So like this is not a new, this is not an old. Sorry, that's, let me make better sense of that. This is the sort of story that hasn't been kind of stuck on the shelves of the past, but it's always there, this desire to see Christianity as just a means to a particular type of end. And I think Luke is just gifting us something beautiful by telling us this story in this detail. 

[00:04:57] And we have ignored it in the modern West, so, so, 

[00:05:02] John: Yeah. Yeah, and it's deeply uncomfortable, of course. I think your phrase regarding the Holy Spirit. As a utility, let's bang on the money. Excuse the pun there, but I, I, I think that's absolutely correct. I think humans in general are always looking for an angle with the divine, and I think religion in its most shameful context, has made. 

[00:05:30] Billions of people who, who both want to get on the right side of God and will do anything to do that from those who claim to have sort of the exclusive on God. 

[00:05:47] and have God in their pocket. Simon, clearly, if, if we're following the trajectory, Simon clearly is a man, motivated by the darkness, motivated by we might even say occultic practices in the, in the context of that, so, so, There's a assignment, has then a different worldview to power and demonstration than we've been now introduced to in the, in the, in the Book of Acts. 

[00:06:13] And this power that we have been encouraged to receive. And this power of the Holy Spirit is not about me and you wielding that for our end, but the complete opposite, actually, the surrender of our ego, the surrender of ourself. For the greater good of the work of this gospel and the person of this Holy Spirit. 

[00:06:34] The Holy Spirit is not a thing to be utilized, but a person to be surrendered to. and I think we've got, this is now the moment of clash and it's, you're absolutely right, David. It is easy to dismiss this as someone who didn't really believe and has come from an occultic background anyway. And it's not a really, it's just, that's a, it's a cool story, but it's doesn't apply to me. 

[00:06:58] But all humans, even humans who follow Jesus are. 

[00:07:03] David: Yes. 
 

[00:07:04] John: the temptation to get God in our pocket, make God in our image, and get God to do what we want 'em to do. And if we've worked out a formula for that to happen, then sell that and replicate that to others so that actually. It improves. And the, the, the longer I'm going on as AEs, I'm realizing I, God won't fit into anybody's pocket. 

[00:07:25] And anybody who tells you that he does fit in their pocket sort of thing should be avoided in, in some ways. So the, we do have a real clash here, a real, a real clash of worldview, but one that's not as far away from us as we would want to. 

[00:07:40] David: Yeah, absolutely. And, and and both John and I, if you were, if you were uh, watching our videos, you'd see both of us are, are sat with relatively sizable bookshelves in our backgrounds, right? So we have. We have, listened to and learned and read and studied various people with, Hey, I did it like this, this is what worked for me. 

[00:08:01] Hey, I did it like that. And, and there are bad. And so what we're not saying is, oh, well, don't try and learn from everything. Don't pay for any learning. Don't, like, there's definitely not an undercurrent here of, oh, anybody that charges for something is. is bad. That's like, not that you were saying that John, but I think it's worth making that explicit cuz there can also be a world of, of of. Negativity towards somebody then who is writing a book or something. That what Simon's got on going on here, and I think this is where Luke's language is really, is really powerful. He's like, give me this power, and, and to me that's the, that's the sort of thing, and even, and it's even the word you give me, give me this, this exia, this, this, this authority that's like this is a power play, so somebody's saying, Hey, I planted a church and I found the following four things really helpful in that process and I want to share them with you cuz you might also find them helpful. That's not somebody doing what Simon's doing here, right? 

[00:09:04] Simon's. I am, I'm gonna give you money cuz I want power. And, and of course like, think about the humanness of this is the man who, they said, this man is the power of God That is called great and a new. A new spirit has come into town and exposed to Simon. He's not as crazy. He thought he was. 

[00:09:24] And so his natural tendency is, how do I get back to the top of the castle? It is, it's the kids', kids' game, king of the castle in, in spiritual form. And, and I need to get back there so there's something rotten. And I don't mean just rotten and Simon, there's something rotten in the pursuit of power that will do this to you and, and you will use any. 

[00:09:45] any currency you can, if it's money, then I'm going to use money. If it's violence, I'm going to use violence. If how do I get to the top? And this so quickly is forgotten that the Holy Spirit scattered this way. , he was just the Holy Spirit's doing what he's doing. He's coming to the Samaritans and nobody's getting in the way of that 

[00:10:05] John: Yeah. Fantastic. And, and I, I love the, the, the, the gorgeous, gorgeous little, it, it's, it's really easy to miss it in, in the context of the book of Acts. I think that there are, there are some major outpourings of the spirit in the Book of Acts. You've got X two, which we've talked about, we'll, we'll eventually get at some point in the future to Cornelius's household, a gentile contacts with the spirits outpour in X 10, and in the spirit is received by a bunch of followers of John the Baptist. 

[00:10:34] In X 19, and this is another one here. So you've almost got like a Jewish context in X two. You've got a Samaritan context in Xi Gentile context in X 10 and in a sort of a weird, weird hybrid thing going on in X 19. But in each of the outpourings of the sprout, there are some significant. Noted physical or visible signs. 

[00:11:00] Un verbal. So verbal. Physical. Physical. They're all visible and physical. They're all going on. It's really interesting that in acts it, Dr. Luke doesn't give us anything. Okay, so, so it says it's, I, if you look at that sort of previous thing that, that they led their hands on the people to receive the Holy Spirit and just, and Luke sort of says, and they received that, that was it, sort of 

[00:11:24] thing. Nothing is explained, but then verse 18 says, when Simon saw. So we've no idea what he saw. We could, we could look at X two, X 10 and X 19 and sort of, put together some ideas. But, but isn't it interesting in the four events, the four moments of the spirit being. Specifically outpoured on four different groups, Jewish, Gentile Samaritan and N and x 19 we're given detail in all of them. 

[00:11:56] The one we're not given detail is the one that sparks the most interesting reaction from Simon, and it's almost like Luke is highlighting Simon's heart. Rather than the signs themselves. He really is. I, I think playing into what you've just said, I think Luke, Luke is really demonstrating some, this is really driven from Simon's heart. And, and, and we don't even know what Simon saw, but it was so significant that Simon is willing to, well, he wants to buy the ability, the authority to be able to do this thing. So whatever it was, whatever the, the signs were, whatever the demonstration, it's pretty spectacular in that context. But, but of course we've sort of gotta argue from silence, but, , but, but I thought that was a lovely in, in looking at the patterns of the book of X, that really does stand out as an interesting little pattern shift. 

[00:12:54] And then the reaction which follows it, which is, is very interesting, which probably says more about Simon's heart. 

[00:13:01] David: Well, and let me just, I'm going to make a, a subtle argument. From silence here, which we always say, don't build your house on them. Right? But I am also going to quote John Crio the ancient church father. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring in some, I'm gonna bring in him an old heavyweight of the early church to defend my arguments from silence. 

[00:13:23] Crio says this about this story. He says that this story story is a two-fold sign. It signifies the giving of the spirit. To these Samaritans who we'd long hoped to become part of God's kingdom, but also the not giving of the gift to Simon. Right. And, and, and what I and I, and when I look at the text, it's fascinating to me that. I th that, that Simon, we could read it and say, oh, Simon received the Holy Spirit, and what he wants is the power to give it to others. But this text never explicitly tells us that Simon even receives the Holy Spirit. That somehow the Holy Spirit, if you build from that, from, that kind of slightly more imaginative reading, but that somehow the Holy Spirit doesn't fall on, Simon doesn't give him any of the power because he knows. 

[00:14:16] John: Hmm. 
 

[00:14:16] David: The Holy Spirit knows that Simon's trying to abuse this, that there's still work to be done. And again, it's one of these classic two text moments where we say don't build your house on it. But it is notable that Simon seems to think. I don't have this and I want it and I'm going to get it. And what's ironic is everybody has been given it by the laying on their hands. 

[00:14:39] And when, and if I read it, imaginatively here it. And when Simon's turn comes, he puts money on the table and he tries to buy something that's being offered to him for free. 

[00:14:51] John: Very good. I like that. I like that. That's very, very good. And, and uh, actually that then makes total sense to Peter's reaction as well. 

[00:15:02] David: Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:15:03] John: So, so it, it doesn't, it really does. I, I think that's a case of a silence that is sort of supported by the trajectory of the, of the narrative. And, and I do, I do like that. 

[00:15:16] I, I love. Just love the way you put that there, that that actually Peter and John, if they are literally laying hands on all the believers, then, then obviously they're going from believer to believer. We, we, we would sometimes imagine that almost symbolically, they stretch their hands out over the crowd, but if they're literally laying hands on, and again, that's an interesting pattern in the book of acts. 

[00:15:39] You get, you get, of the four events, you get two of them with hands led on and two of them seem to. in a moment of spontaneity or at least a good environment of faith. And this is one of those lane, and I love that idea, David. That's just a beautiful little that, that actually as they're coming to lay hands on Simon before they put their hands on me, goes okay, this is, this is amazing. 

[00:16:02] Okay, can I have this? And that actually is also maybe a moment that interjects into this incredible. Moving of the spirit and hence explains perhaps the, I mean, Peter is pretty aggressive here. It's really interesting is that, we, we did the whole Anas and Sia thing. I think Peter's language here is more toasty. 

[00:16:25] Then he did, even with Anas and Sia, an as Anas Sia got taken out. And, and it feels, Peter feels like he's not missing and hitting the wall here. He really is nailing Simon to the wall and it does feel pretty, pretty brutal. And it is really interesting, of course, that. , but Simon says that, Peter, you, you pray for me that this won't happen. 

[00:16:47] Simon himself doesn't pray. So this me confirms the trajectory we're on, that he's following Philip, not the savior, that before he gets to receive the holy spray, he's trying to buy it. trying to buy the gift that is, and then of course the argument or, or, or the rebuke from Peter and the subsequent passivity around prayer and, and any disappears in terms of the X narrative. 

[00:17:11] Of course, Simon disappears at the 

[00:17:13] David: yes, he does, doesn't he? And it's interesting that like some of Peter's language is really, really fascinating, isn't it? Like, so, mayor Silver, mayor Silver, Perish with you because you thought you could obtain God's gift with money. You have no part of sharing this, but listen, look at this, like for your heart is not right before God. 

[00:17:33] And that's what I love. It goes back to what we said in the last episode in verse 13. You're just not, you're in the right space. Philip, but you're just not pointing the right direction. And then if you don't completely think that's what's going on, notice the end of verse 22. If possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven. 

[00:17:51] The, the trajectory of your heart is wrong, Simon, and, and I think this is really quite powerful. One of the things that I talk about a lot in my church setting, John, is that we say that we try to. One of our core values as a church is to be Jesus centered. But, and how we talk about that is by, we say that we, we want to live by a centered set, not a bounded set. 

[00:18:17] So a bounded set says that you basically, you build, you build a fence around Jesus, and if you're inside the fence, you're in. And if you're outside the fence, you're out. And there's a whole host of books on this, but Mark Baker's book Centered Set Church. If any pastors are listening to this podcast by Mark Baker's book centered Set Church, it's, it's, it's phenomenal. 

[00:18:36] Al I'll, I'll try and put a, a link to it in the, in the show notes, but, but what? What he then advisees in this book is that a centered set is, the question is not proximity. It's not how close you are to Jesus, it's your trajectory. It's what direction, it's your intent. Intent. Or the Latin literally means your direction. 

[00:18:58] What are you aimed at? Right? So, so that's just so we get this word intention from the Latin intent and, and here, here we have Peter saying to Simon, what you are aimed at needs forgiven so you can be right close to Jesus and aimed in the wrong direction. And you can be really far from Jesus and aimed in the right direction. 

[00:19:21] And what we've so often failed in in the church is we've built our, our theological houses of the church by saying, well, the people that are close are the people who are in, and the people who are far. Are the people who are out. And actually what Jesus does is he never deals with people in terms of in and out, but he talks about you. 

[00:19:39] Following him and being directed to him in the, the trajectory of your heart. And here we have, like Simon is in the presence of the Holy Spirit working. Like you say this, we don't know what's happening, but he can see that something's happening and yet he's actually trajectory all wrong and therefore the Holy Spirit keeps him in arms distance from that for his sake and for the church's. 

[00:20:02] John: That's brilliant. I, I, I mean, seriously anyone listening to that needs to sort of, go back the last five 10 minutes and listen to that again. That is absolutely brilliant. And, and as you were sharing that I was deeply actually got very emotional listening to you and deeply touched by that and the power of that. 

[00:20:19] And also my goodness. Even as leaders, as pastors, as shepherds, we, we must, we must not fall into the trap of proximity. 

[00:20:28] We, we must encourage trajectory. You, you, you can, you can be close and far, we, we've reflected on the gorgeous, beautiful parable of the, of the, of the lost sons, the two sons. 

[00:20:40] You have, you have the son who in proximity was close to the father. 

[00:20:47] But lost. 

[00:20:48] But the son who was far away, his trajectory was towards the father. I abs sinned against heaven and against you and in and in a few chapters time where I couldn't help but think. And this is, you and I race all over the place in our, in our thoughts when we're talking to each other. 

[00:21:04] But I, my heart, that's why I got quite emotional. My heart was drawn to Cornelius. We'll meet him in a couple of chapters, a gentile sanur. Whose trajectory is towards Jesus. 

[00:21:18] It's, and, and, and then Jesus has to radically speak to Peter to sort of get him to move in the trajectory towards Cornelius. And I just love this idea that here's Cornelius in proximity far away 

[00:21:37] from the church, but in trajectory. Touching the heart of God. Oh my goodness. That I'm, I'm struggling to talk, to be honest with you, I'm, I'm really, really moved by that, by 

[00:21:49] that language. That's absolutely excellent. 

[00:21:52] David: Even John, the, the intent of your heart as, as Peter says, to to Simon, right? Just like, yeah. I mean, I like Cornelius is a beautiful example of this, but notice even, and I hadn't thought about this until just as you were saying that, and I was thinking about the, how we get from Simon to Cornelius, but you know, Phillip's gonna go and find an Ethiopian eunuch right now. 

[00:22:19] You know we're gonna talk about this so in the next episode. But suffice to say eunuchs are not welcome within the rules of the law into any holy species. And Philip asks him when he, he fi, he meets him. It's just an amazing saying. He meets this African unit reading Isaiah, right? And Philip says, do you understand what you're reading? 

[00:22:41] Right? . And he's just sat in a chariot reading eyes. I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. But think, don't, let's not miss the profanity of this. And the unit replies, how can I, unless someone guide. Right. It's about intention. Again, point me in the right way. This Euch is saying, and the, and the beauty of Luke's narrative is to show you that this euch looks like he's going in all the wrong ways to the wrong observer, to the person that hasn't grasped the gospel. 

[00:23:05] This is the wrong direction, Philip, but this guy saying no, point me in the right direction. I was thinking, John, about. Incredible messianic line in Isaiah 42, the bruised reed, he will not break. And the smoldering flax, he will not snuff out. And one of the problems with a boundaried way of thinking about Jesus is there will always, always, always be somebody right on the edge of the fence. 

[00:23:30] And just because of where you've chose to draw the line, they now are out. You just never see Jesus do that. So the bruised reed can be far off and broken seeming, but the, but the look towards Jesus, is always enough, to to, to draw you in, in that right way. And I think that's why this story of Simon is so important, where it is in the story. 

[00:23:56] Cuz we have to get to the Ethiopian UN and understand it. We have to, I'm so excited from when we get to talk about Cornelius, but. This gift is free. All we need to do is point ourselves towards it. And, and yet we're trying so often about, to just figure ways to just keep it slightly out of certain people's hands. 

[00:24:17] And it's, it, it's. It's dangerous, and that's why I think Luke is doing a huge service to the church and one that we regularly ignore. You know that, just make sure you're pointed at the right thing, Simon, he's saying, but then of course also saying it to us as well. 

[00:24:34] John: for sure. Absolutely. And, and, and we, we hear the narrative constantly that it is not our job to protect God. 

[00:24:42] David: Hmm, 
 

[00:24:43] John: It's our job to proclaim him. Right. And, and I love how our story sort of comes to an end. There's something really beautiful here. Again, in what, in what Luke does, we, we've got this sense that when, that, when Peter and John finish. They, they, they proclaim to the people in, in the, in the city. And then it says, when Peter and John returned to Jerusalem preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages. I like that. So, so actually the apostles haven't scattered. They've stayed Jerusalem centric and we've seen up to this point, their strategy has not, doesn't seem to have included Samaria at this stage. 

[00:25:27] By chapter eight, they've now seen enough evidence by the outpouring of the spirit on the Samaritan believers by their joy in the city in receiving Jesus, that they don't just go home to jeru. 

[00:25:43] David: Mm. 
 

[00:25:43] John: but they proclaim in many Samaritan villages. I mean, this is, it is, isn't it gorgeous? It's like, it's like Luke is just dropping that in to show. 

[00:25:57] Okay. Something so significant has happened in Samaria that it's actually had also a direct strategic and practical impact on John and Peter, that they're not, not rushing back, but they are clearly the, the, in the inference here that in the, in the 50 or so miles from Samaria to Jerusalem, they're doing a lot of. 

[00:26:21] David: Guess 
 

[00:26:22] John: And they are proclaiming the gospel and it's like Philip leads the way and now these apostles are following his trajectory. And I love that. I love that. I think that is a, and it's a beautifully. Concludes the story, not only in terms of Samaria, but there's something now getting under the skin of these great men of God. 

[00:26:43] There's something getting under the skin of the apostles. They're now starting to see the disruptive presence of the Holy Spirit is now flooding across the border. And doing something. And of course that sets us up beautifully for the very next line. Now, the angel of the Lord said to Philip , you get okay, well haven't stopped there. 

[00:27:02] Now we are going to play on into the, we're gonna break some more boundaries. We're gonna push over some more borders, and we're gonna see God do something spectacular in the those who are willing when scattered to preach and proclaim the good news of Jesus.