Pursuing But Being Pursued | Disruptive Presence 36

In which John and David continue to explore when Paul meets Jesus. In this episode we consider the irony around some aspects of the story - the hunter is the hunted, the pious one learns he doesn't quite know what's going on, the zealot is invited to think differently about zeal.

Episode 93 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 36

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Transcript

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[00:00:00] David: Okay, John. We're a little bit long in our last episode. I hope our listeners will forgive us for getting excited about Paul and the conversion of Paul

[00:01:02] John: Yeah, I, it was funny, I, I just kept looking at the clock thinking, oh, we, we should probably stop. And I just couldn't, it was like I was, no, let's, let's do this bit, let's do that. And actually, I, I hope it, we, our desire was to sort of set Paul in context a little bit. And in some of those ideas sewn in, in that last episode, if they travel with us for the next, however long we engage with Paul and X, then it really will help us.

[00:01:27] It it does. And, and of course, as you start to spin into the writings of Paul in terms of the content of the New Testament, that that makes real sense. And passages like Philippines and, and especially Galatians, just really make sense to us.

[00:01:42] David: Well, and also listener. I'm going to, John and I's friendship is deep. I'm just gonna mention that, that I hope you noticed that, that John closed our last episode with a reference to Galatians and, and I looked at the clock and realized we were, we were at the sort of 50 minute mark. And, and I, and, and I said to John, I said, I could only comment on that if I had another 30 minutes after recording.

[00:02:05] Bring it up. Galatians in the final minute, minute to a Galatians scholar is, is sort of like that situation where somebody brings out a lovely hot apple pie from the oven and then your friend says, oh, we need to go now and there's no time to eat it.

[00:02:22] John: That's a great, that's a great analogy, man. That really does work. Yes. I could see, I could, and again, our listeners may or may not realize, we can see each other's recording and I could see literally sort of, passion start to burst out of it's pos, as I mentioned Galatians. But, but yeah, it's, it's, it's Marvel.

[00:02:40] David: But, but actually let's just, and I'm not gonna take 30 minutes on this, I promise, but where you left us off in the last episode actually is, is a beautiful summary line that will help us now dive into the text of Acts chapter nine. We read the text in if full in the last episode, so we, we won't jump into it again.

[00:02:57] You can go back and, and check that in your, in your own time listeners. But this line in Galatians chapter one where Paul. He says, you've heard of my early life in Judaism. I was violently persecuting The church of God was trying to destroy it. I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my people of my age was far more zealous.

[00:03:18] There's that word that helps us locate Paul in his psic tradition. I was zealous for the traditions of my ancestors. And then you get this, I, I love this text, but. When but when God who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his son, and the different translations go either to me or in me.

[00:03:45] I really like in me, even though historically to me works as well, but there's a double handed with this, that he would reveal his son to me so that I might proclaim him among the Gentiles. And I think what we. Paul doing here is merging this, this set apart from my mother's womb, alludes to to Jeremiah, the lines of the prophetic text of the Old Testament.

[00:04:09] The revelation of the Jesus is bringing us into this New Testament and Saul is showing how. This is not an abandonment of his way and the things he used to believe, but rather he's now through Jesus seeing everything differently and the Old Testament traditions and, and Saul realizes, and Paul realizes that even though he meets Jesus on the Damascus road, God has been working this for a long, long time and, and I think that's the frame and the mindset for us to come into Acts chapter nine with.

[00:04:45] John: Yes, absolutely. I, I, I think that is stunning. I, I really think it's stunning and I, I, I think there's a lovely. Direct or indirect accidental or genius illusion to that in, in, in our passage and X where, where we have this sense that, that Saul is pursuing people of the way and the language, is that As, as he came on his way to in fact, it's Anais who, who really refers to this a little bit later on as he came on his way.

[00:05:20] And of course, as Saul is going his way to pursue people of the way he meets. The way, and you, and you get this, you get this beautiful, if you put those ideas together, you get those. Beautiful. I know that sounds a bit poetic and that's cool, but, but you do get this beautiful immersion of all that Saul has been, is no collating with everything that the the lord of.

[00:05:50] Wants him to be that actually somehow now what he's about to become with Jesus formed in him, pulls everything he was together and, and it feels like in the life of Saul, though, it looks like a radical directional conversion. It feels like everything in his life, as he says in Galatians, from the moment of his mother's womb.

[00:06:16] Is, is pulled together by this Jesus of the way. And and it all comes into this glorious clarity as far as Saul is concerned, and that, that's totally amazing. I, I think there's some big picture practicality, landing points for all of us there. But if we're just thinking about Saul, you, you sort of go, my goodness.

[00:06:38] Wow. E. E, everything. He's been trained in, in his love for Yahweh, up to this point is now about to catch fire because Jesus Messiah is being formed in him. And, and all of that finds focus, crystallization purpose and meaning in a completely different way on the. By the way, and I, I, I, I just think knitting those two little ideas together from X nine and Galatians one, I think is, I just think it's magnificent, really.

[00:07:17] David: it, it's interesting, like I, I know I, I reference from time to time Willie James Jennings commentary on Acts. I always hold this caveat. I, for some people they might find it a, a difficult read cuz he is controversial in a few things. But one of the reasons I like reading it, it's a theological commentary rather than an EAL commentary.

[00:07:35] And Jennings is a poet as well. But, but just I can. I have to read this, John, because it's so beautiful. We've got, we talked about it in the last episode. Saul is breathing out. He is his puma, his spirit, his breath is murderous threats and what's he doing? It, he has this zeal, and this is what Jennings says, because diaspora betrays of the faith are a clear and present danger to Israel.

[00:07:59] This is how Saul sees them. His rationality demands his. Justice, right? But this is where it gets amazing. Listen to this. But what Saul does not yet know is that the road to Damascus has changed. It is space now inhabited by the wayfaring spirit of the Lord. And then love you. Love this Saul Pursues, but he is being pursued

[00:08:30] John: come on, come on,

[00:08:33] David: Oh my goodness. I cry when I read that because I'm like, isn't that the God that we're talking about ? Like, like yeah. Good plan. Soul

[00:08:43] John: That's beautiful. My, my goose pimples have goose pimples, so Yeah, absolutely. That is, and, and, and I just, David, I don't know I, I can't read this beautiful story without seeing h h Here's a man absolutely zealous in Tana Knock, and when Jesus speaks to him, the echo of TaNaK is, is everywhere. And. I, I, we, we, we look at that gorgeous just to pick up your IDs being pursued.

[00:09:13] He's being pursued by Jesus. He's not just pursuing, he's being pursued. And in verse four, Shaul Shaul it. His, his name is called Twice. And of course, if you've hung around the Bible, any length of time, that double calling of a neme

[00:09:31] David: mm.

[00:09:32] John: of kicks around a little. And, and I am reminded, and I couldn't, as I'm reading it again, I'm go, oh my goodness.

[00:09:40] And, so, so, Moses is drawn to a bush and, and God speaks at the bush. You get this double emphasis of his name when. When Samuel, eventually, Eli eventually works out, hold on. This boy's being called by God, it's not me that's calling you. He, he, he sends him back the fourth time and says, okay, look, if God speaks again, really listen.

[00:10:02] It's God. And of course on the fourth time God speaks, he says, schul, schul. And, and you get this double emphasis of call and, and it seems every time you get a double emphasis on a name, there's something significant in the call. Something powerful is about to kick. Kick in. . Now we've got Shaul, Shaul, and Imagine

[00:10:31] Oh dear. Now I'm getting emotional. Imagine hearing your name called twice. And of course the other little illusion here, David, and we don't get this from X nine, but we get this in the X 26 version in the X 26 version when. Saul Paul speaking to a Agrippa, speaks of his conversion. He said that Jesus, Jesus spoke to him in Hebrew,

[00:10:58] David: Hmm.

[00:11:00] John: and I sort of go, okay. So you've got like Moses, it gets called from the bush in Hebrew. Moe, Moe. You get Samuel called from God in Hebrew, and here's now a man who's going to take to knock and reread it through the lens of this Messiah formed in him and this messiah. On the road to Damascus, calls him twice in his Hebrew tongue. And, and I, I just think that that is magnificent and I, I think it, it, it all plays into this pursuit idea. This is not, Hey, you over there, this is Shaul Shaul, it's you. It's, there's no doubt who Jesus is pursuing here. And the double emphasis on his name I think is a, is a gorgeous. Well, it's more than an illusion.

[00:11:56] I, I think it's a very, very, very, I think of all the people on the road at Damascus who would understand Shaul Shaul, I think it's, I think it's Shaul . I think he's getting it maybe more than anybody else on that path.

[00:12:10] David: The, it, it's, I mean, it's a stunning, it's a stunning text. It's, the, like this per this persecution of soul and. and this chasing of, of the Lord of Saul. And, and I, I just, there there's a level of which without trying to be too pastoral, you know that line from Jenning, Saul Pursues, but he's being pursued.

[00:12:34] Luke is writing this text, not because he wants you to have a history. Lesson about the early church, because this is all theology. This is all the story of Jesus. Saul is pursuing, but he is being pursued. Luke wants you to know this because you are being pursued as well. This , this is the God who chases us down, and, and so like, Dearly hope that we all read this, and in this story of this man who set out to try and destroy the church, God was pursuing him the whole time and God is pursuing you and he's pursuing me because this is what God does and God cannot.

[00:13:16] Deny himself. But, but while we're over in chapter 26, there's the kinda line that people might recognize. Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? I mean, think about that question for a second. It's the same question in, in both versions. Why are you persecuting me? This Jesus is aligning himself as the.

[00:13:36] Oppressed. Jesus is aligning himself. This is the sort of question that we hear from the downtrodden peoples of the world. Why? Why are you hurting me? It's not the powerful question. So this great God that brings light to the sky, doesn't ask a question of power. He asks the question that the, the marginalized ass, the, the downtrodden ash.

[00:13:56] But why are you hurting me? But notice in chapter 26, in chapter 26, we get. Why are you persecuting me? It hurts you to kick against the gods.

[00:14:10] John: yep.

[00:14:11] David: it, it actually, this is like, you're, you're not actually even hurting me here. Right. You know what I mean? You're actually, you're actually not causing me problems here.

[00:14:21] It's you that this is damaging persecution. Paul is damaging you. And, and I'm, and, and I just flicked to that as you were referencing that and thought isn't. The story, that, that, that God has a better plan for Saul, a better plan for his own life. And I, I, I found that fascinating and this resonance that.

[00:14:43] Why do you persecute me? Right? Remember when Peter said to Anan, I and Safara, you've taken this money from God, right? , and somehow, again, the church is not the Fi, Paul's breathing out threats against the church, but God's like, but you're persecuting me. So, there's, there's a lot in that I realize.

[00:15:01] But I feel like, we, we, it's worth pausing and thinking about these things.

[00:15:04] John: For sure, for sure. And, and I think, I think there's a double edge to that, David. I think you're absolutely right that Saul is, is hurting himself in the context of, of that. And, and then you get this gorgeous illusion to the idea that, that actually you're, you're hurting me, Paul, you're, you're persecuting me.

[00:15:26] And, and, and I think Paul later really understands that, picks that. . I, I think he would understand that from the, the, the context of TaNaK that, the, the, the great Abrahamic Covenant itself says those who bless you, I will bless those who curse you. I will curse. There's a sense in which a people get identified with God himself, and there's a sense in which.

[00:15:49] We're, we're, we're, we're taught in, in TaNaK that if you put your hand on what is God's in terms of people, God, you're putting your hand on God himself. And, and then, and then I think Paul picks that up even beautifully in his own reading, where he refers to us as God's temple.

[00:16:06] David: Yes.

[00:16:07] John: In Corinth. If God, if someone tries to destroy God's temple, then, then, then, I mean strong language, God will destroy them.

[00:16:15] And you get, in the same letter that beautiful we are the, the body is a unit though it is made up of many parts. So it is with Christ. So you get this gorgeous I think identification. , which then becomes, I, I, could this become part of the radical shift in Paul's thinking? Cuz not only now is Paul saying a revelation of Messiah in Jesus and this Messiah will form in him.

[00:16:40] But now Paul is saying these followers of the way in Messiah. Are part of Messiah. Messiah is in them, and they are in Messiah. We are in Christ. Christ is in us. And I, and, and I love that, that idea. Eko Galatians, I, I love the, the translation he's formed revealed in me, not just revealed to. These are profoundly deep formative formation issues and that, and that Saul sees a double fresh revelation that Jesus is Messiah, Yahweh's servant, and that now the people of the way are Yahweh's people. And that, my goodness, if I put my hand on. I am putting my hand on him and, and he more than anybody, he would understand that, I think. I think he would really get that solidarity of idea.

[00:17:37] David: Abs. Abs, absolutely. I mean, he could, he's so it's, it, it's like a handful of words, but there's just layer upon layer upon layer of resonancies of, of what, of how he speaks to Saul, of how it connects with, with, with what's going on. And, and I just think. To me it's that it's all the threads that Luke is hanging together for us as well, and reminding us of where, of where this all works, which actually then serves to make the following interchange even more electric, doesn't it?

[00:18:12] So who are you Lord? Soul asks. I mean, again, like, like four words, but, but it's, there's, there's stuff going on here, John isn't.

[00:18:25] John: Oh yeah. Magnificent. Absolutely. And, and you know what, it's, it's this, it's, it's interesting that he responds with a question and. , is, is drawn into this moment and, and draws the Lord into this moment, in the way that he does. Who are you Lord? Now if if, if anyone knew who the Lord was in terms of TaNaK in scripture, Saul is the man.

[00:18:52] I mean, he could, he could give you a breakdown of, Who the Lord is, and yet he's now experiencing, seeing, understanding another, can I say this carefully? A, a, a revolution of the Lord that is now causing him to sort of ask this question and, and feel feel it that he's now being introduced to something beyond himself and someone beyond himself.

[00:19:20] David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I, a slightly interesting thing, I, I was just, I've got kinda one eye on Exodus cuz you got me thinking about, about Mo's Mosies from, from, from the burning bush and Mo's response, here I am and, and then the Lord's saying, I'm the God of your father Abraham Isaac. But, but, but Saul's response of who are you is I think is in, in indicative of.

[00:19:48] His, his sort of lack of alignment because I think even though, I would, I would argue strongly that, that, that Saul. Sees like his Christianity, if that's, that's an anachronistic term to use, but his following of Jesus aligns him with the traditions of the Old Testament and the TaNaK.

[00:20:07] This, this, this tradition is, is there and, and, and constant. His murderous intentions are out of line with the work of the prophets, right? The, the, the, the Micah six, do justice and, don't oppress the, those, and, and, and so, so Saul is out of line and I, I sometimes hear that resonance of when he first hears the Lord's voice.

[00:20:34] He doesn't recognize it, even though he is intentionally, absolutely committed to serving this God to, to doing this God's work when he actually hears this God's voice. who, who, who are you? And, and this Lord language obviously is complex for us because Lord can just mean, sir, it can just mean master or it can mean you know the Lord God.

[00:21:01] But I, I think I read this more as a sense of who are you, Lord. There's a sense of respect because obviously something very intense is happening here. But it's interesting that, that the, the who are. Is the complex bit. Now I have some thoughts on, I have some thoughts on some of that, in terms of how that connects with Paul's telling of the story.

[00:21:23] But I'm curious what your thoughts are in terms of that, that slight unknown.

[00:21:28] John: No, I, Anna, I, I think it contrasts beautifully. We, we, we may lean a bit harder into it later in this podcast or in another one, but when it's interesting, the contrast when the Lord calls an Anais to go to Saul. He speaks. Once Anais an Anais responds in, what I would regard is a classical

[00:21:54] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:55] John: Hebrew, he would be responding heini.

[00:21:57] I am here. Here I am.

[00:21:59] David: Yes. Yes.

[00:22:00] John: And yet when Jesus speaks to Saul Shaul Shaul, he goes, well, who are you Lord? So I think in the contrast, in the very text we've read in x.

[00:22:12] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:13] John: You're getting that very idea that you've touched on, I think you're getting someone who knows Tana Knock, someone who knows Torah and someone who, who believes he knows the God of Torah and, and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but he's now meeting someone on the road.

[00:22:32] And he's not, hold on. I know I'm, I know I'm encountering something supernatural, but who are you yet, when Ananias is called in a vision to go to Saul, Ananias says, I'm here, but what is it you want? So, so you, you, you get a response of knowingness from Ananias, even though Anais isn't too, too taken with what the Lord's gonna ask him to do.

[00:22:57] And you get a responsive, I think genuine. Curiosity's probably not the right word, but, but genuine desire to know who is speaking to me.

[00:23:09] David: Hmm.

[00:23:10] John: And, and, and so that not knowing is, is again, doesn't it point that the idea idea that that. There is an encountering Jesus, a revelatory dynamic. You can learn words, you can learn ideas, you can learn theology.

[00:23:28] But actually here on this road, ironically though he's struck blind. Saul is about to see something he's never seen before. And it's, there's a revelatory element that. All those beautiful ideas into knock together into Jesus, which we've already talked about many, many times, and it's about to happen for Saul.

[00:23:49] So there is an unknowingness and unknowingness.

[00:23:52] David: I. I like that you talked about the, the language of seeing there, because that's how, that's how I sort of have landed this in my own reflections on on Paul's conversion. So you've got Mosies, there's something happening here. There's a bush on fire, , but it appears not to be burning up . Okay. So, and then a voice speaks to it.

[00:24:17] I'm just going. Assume that this is something very divine going on here, and then the voice explains, this is who I am. So I find myself sometimes reflecting when I read this story, why does, why does Saul respond this way? Someone so steeped in scripture. should recognize at some level the, the divine voice, right?

[00:24:39] The, the, the, the, the, the Saul. Saul, why do you person, all this sort of stuff. What would, what would cause him to react in an almost understated? Who are you, sir, or who are you master, right? Because I don't think someone of Saul's status says to the Lord God, who are you? If he thinks it's the Lord God, does that make.

[00:25:01] John: for sure. Absolutely.

[00:25:03] David: And I think what helped me with this was then when I turn over to Paul, in his own words, in first Corinthians 15, right? And at the beginning of first Corinthians 15, Paul lays out I, I, almost legal defense, he uses this sort of framework of a, of a sort of legal defense that Jesus has been raised from the debt and he starts to list eyewitnesses to the resurrection right now.

[00:25:29] A couple of fascinating things here. Doesn't mention any of the women. That saw Jesus. Now, is Paul being sexist when he does that? N I don't think so because what he's doing here is presenting this first paragraph in chapter 15 of First Corinthians as if it's a sort of legal defense and in his era, Women's testimonies weren't allowed in legal defense.

[00:25:51] And so Saul, who seems to be, and Paul, who seems to be championing the voice of women in all other places, I think because of the genre he's approaching here, he drops into, into legal form. And, I, I, I hope that doesn't come across negatively against Saul, but it's interesting that he, he doesn't mention that.

[00:26:09] And this is what he says. Christ was buried and he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures and that he, to Kfa. S So that's Peter, then to the 12th. So we're tracking with this, we, we recognize these stories from the Bible and then he appeared to more than 500 brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive.

[00:26:28] Those some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Then he says this last of all as to one untimely born. He appeared.

[00:26:39] John: Hmm.

[00:26:40] David: To me, I'm the least of the apostles, unfit to be called apostles because I persecuted the church. So it, the question that I often used to ask about this is, If Paul's trying to make a case for the physical resurrection of Jesus, why does he lay out his encounter with Jesus as an encounter with the resurrected Jesus when we always talk about it as a vision, right?

[00:27:08] And I started to look closely at Luke's language there and realized that, that if I take the approach that Luke is looking at this. eyewitnesses perspective, right? And then allowing Paul to represent it. They do mesh together. If you're watching this story as not Saul, there's just light and sound, and you don't really know.

[00:27:30] I mean, it's very apparent. Those who are with him are not entirely clear what's going on. But notice the little tiny giveaway in verse seven. The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless. They heard the sound, but they did not see anyone. And I just argue that's Luke's point. Somebody saw someone, right?

[00:27:52] So here's my take. Saul. Saul, why do you persecute you False. He falls to the ground. Here's a voice. But I'm gonna argue that Jesus is there , right? This is not a voice coming from the heavens. This is not a voice coming from the, this is not a voice coming from the, from the bush. This is not, the voice in the temple that, that Samuel heard.

[00:28:16] I think Saul sees a man. In the middle of this, right? And hence his question like, who are you ? Okay? And I'm gonna say, Lord, because clearly you're a terrifying person because you've just appeared in a bright light that has knocked me to the ground. But the fact that Saul later references this situation as an encounter with the resurrecting Jesus in his own words, I think we have to work from the assumption that, and bear in mind that Luke makes the point, but nobody else saw.

[00:28:49] But Saul saw someone who did he see? And Jesus's response, I am Jesus, right? And, and for me, and maybe it sounds like I'm stretching here, but I, this is the only way I can make sense of all of the moving parts here. The rabbinic Pharisee, he knows the voice of the Lord, like he's maybe never heard it. But something is making him think, I don't think this is the Lord's voice like I've read about in scripture.

[00:29:14] Something is making Luke say, but none of these people saw anyone. And then something is making Saul in Paul in first Corinthians 15 say, I out of time with everybody else encountered the resurrected Jesus. There isn't another. In Paul's letters or Luke that come close to being able to be described as a meeting with the resurrected Jesus.

[00:29:37] And, and Saul is very clear that whatever he's describing in first Corinthians 15 isn't something that continues for him. So he's not describing a vision, he's not describing an intimate moment of spirituality with the Lord. He's describing an encounter with the resurrected Jesus. And so,

[00:29:55] John: Mm.

[00:29:56] David: I think that's what's happening here, and I think that's what makes sense.

[00:29:59] And then it's only after the light disappears that he then realizes, oh, now I can't see. Right. That this has been, this change. So, and I think that, so I think that makes sense of all the parts. But I, I confess that maybe for some of our listeners, that's not how you've heard this text talked about. , but I could even push it further that if you keep reading first Corinthians 15, Paul makes the point that what convinced him that God was now doing things different differently was that he encountered the resurrection in the middle of time.

[00:30:31] And so again, like I'd realized that's a lot, John, but I want to help people make sense of what's going on here and I hope that does something along those lines.

[00:30:42] John: No, I, I think it really does. And in fact, if you there is strong, the first Corinthians passage 15, there's a strong repeat of the idea of scene.

[00:30:52] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:53] John: That really, n i v translates it appeared, which is gorgeous. But you, you could translate, sing, I, I, I. So, and then, and then of course we, we get this in in our little passage in, in X chapter nine, this lovely contrast of conversation in terms of seeing verse seven.

[00:31:15] They heard a sign but did not see.

[00:31:19] David: yeah.

[00:31:19] John: And then, but when he Saul opened his eyes he could see nothing. So Saul is seeing something, but yet he's, he's ultimately blinded. They are seeing something, but they can't see. That thing. So I I, I, I think there's a real case to be made and you're, you're making that so well, where Saul in the light saw Jesus and Anais alludes to this.

[00:31:48] Later on, he says, the one who appeared to you on the road. The one you've seen on the road. So, so you, you, you're getting something there. So Saul is in the light, is seeing Jesus. Everyone else is just seeing light and hearing noise, but he's the one having this amazing, revelatory experience. And of course you, you get within that a gorgeous.

[00:32:14] Merging of both a, a very strong Hebraic idea and now a very strong what feels to be a fresh emphasis, new Testament idea, the idea of hearing something which is very Hebraic. The idea of having your understanding shape by what you hear rather than what you see. And then, and moving that into a New Testament context.

[00:32:37] And here's, here's Saul, this crossover moment, both hearing. on scene. There's a scene and a hearing going on, and this revelatory idea of the scene, this, and, and it's a big idea. And Luke, Luke loves this idea, things, being open, seeing things for the first time. I mean, it's a very strong idea in Luke as well, in his gospel and in the book of Acts.

[00:33:00] So, so there, there's definitely something there, David. That Saul sees this man and asks who he is, and is this, is this one of those gorgeous, again, another Old Testament illusion to a Theophany? Christophany? Is this, this incredible idea of an appearance that, again, in Old Testament scripture, TaNaK scripture, Saul would understand as a concept, as an idea.

[00:33:29] And he sees it can't work it out. So we ask the question, well, who are you? And then of course the answer comes and the revelation comes. So, yeah, I, I think it makes total sense. I I, I know you worked very, very hard to pull all that together, but I, that makes total sense to me, both from Corinthians and drawing it back into the way X nine is.

[00:33:48] David: Well, if we think to the sort of stuff we talked about. With, Saul as a mite, Pharisee, the, the, the, the, the future day of the Lord is coming when the Lord will bring about the resurrection of his people, Israel, the, the, the vanquishing of evil. And then there's this group of Christians going around saying, oh, no, no, no.

[00:34:09] That. That resurrection that you hoped of for Israel in the future has actually happened in the present in this man called Jesus, that vindication of Israel in the future that you hoped for has actually happened in this Israelite called Jesus. That vanquishing of the enemies has actually happened in the present in.

[00:34:31] Israelite called Jesus who died for those enemies. So all the pieces are there, but they're happening in the, if you can let me, if you let me use this language. They're happening in the middle of time, not at the end of time. And what would convince Aite Pharisee that this was the case? And the answer is, The resurrection

[00:34:58] It's like, if he can meet somebody who he knows is dead and that God has raised a life, then that suggests that I, I often describe it. That if you imagine Paul is thinking about history as this plain, flat piece of paper where we are here and we're going towards the end. And if you were to hold that bit of paper and then kind of fold it up on itself, like concertina it.

[00:35:22] And I think what the resurrection of Jesus does is in Paul's mind, it starts to bring the future into the presence, right? God is wrapping time up in on itself. You see it in, actually in first Corinthians 10 when Paul is. Is, is, is talking a, a about, the journey that we're on in Israel's history.

[00:35:43] And he talks about all the things that have happened in the past in Israel's history. And he says this in verse 11 of first Corinthians 10. These things happened to them to serve as an example, and they were written down to instruct. Us upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Right? So what a strange sentence to talk about in the middle of a day, to say the end of the age has come.

[00:36:04] And what Paul means by that is not that the end of time has happened, but that what we thought was gonna happen at the end of time. Resurrection vindication, all people worshiping the Lord has now happened in the middle of time through the resurrection of Jesus. Now fascinatingly for me, if Paul was a mite Pharisee and you were to say to him, okay, let's assume the day of the Lord happens.

[00:36:29] So the Lord comes, identifies his true people, vindicates them, defeats the enemies, what then happens next? Right? And, and you see this in like Ezekiel and Jeremiah and Isaiah. What should happen next? I, I believe Paul would say based on reading the same text that he's reading, what will happen next is the world will be told that the Lord is the true God, and all the nations will come to Israel to worship him.

[00:37:00] All right, so think about Paul's timeline. Resurrection, vindication, defeat of evil. Everybody will come to worship, to worship. Now we come back to acts, right? Shamai, PHSI. I'm on the pursuit of ensuring Israel will be vindicated, ensuring that evil is knocked out the way I've just bumped into the resurrection.

[00:37:20] I thought that was happening at the end, but it's happening in the middle. If the resurrection's happening in the middle and God really is present in this person called Jesus and God has vindicated sin on the cross, or what should we do? Well, vindications happened. , resurrections happened. Defeat of evil has happened.

[00:37:38] The only thing left is we've gotta get the Gentiles to come and worship this God

[00:37:43] John: Yes, yes.

[00:37:45] David: So then in the very next thing, what is Ananias? Hey, by the way I have a plan for this soul. And guess what? , it's for Gentiles, right? I mean, I think it's, and, and, and maybe people will accuse me of train. It's too neat and tidy, but I think it's beautifully as neat and tidy as we would expect from the Lord.

[00:38:05] And I think it also helps us, hopefully, as listeners, to make sense of why Paul responds the way he's doing. He's actually now refocused and re-understanding what God has always been trying to do. And, and I just, I. Gorgeous. And I know that's a lot from, who are you Lord

[00:38:22] John: No, no, I, I, I, I love it. And again, it, it does show that in the way that Jesus meets this man speaks to this man and positions this man, that it isn't just, oh, Saul got converted in any, in any sort of, yeah, he became a missionary person, right? No, no. This is, this is the pulling together of all the ideas that would be.

[00:38:48] in him for years before this moment. And actually again, it show, it, it shows us to, to an extent that many of those ideas forming him were fundamentally good. They're fundamentally right ideas. They just haven't yet met the resurrected Messiah when those ideas collide with I am Jesus.

[00:39:11] David: Yeah,

[00:39:12] John: Everything changes, and then we, we, we see this man go off in a, in a, eventually, immediately, and then eventually on a campaign to, to reach the regions beyond and reach as many people with the message of this resurrected Messiah as possible.

[00:39:30] Because he sees this is prophetic fulfillment. This is the ultimate end to the. Of that, that God began with the Abraham all those years ago. So, so there is this gorgeous pulling together of these threads, and it does help explain, this is not just Paul's personality. This is not just Paul being a bit of a go-getter person, this is Paul motivated and energized by a belief system that has in itself been motivated and energized by the resurrected Jesus. And all of that is colliding on the road to Damascus and will crystallize in the days to come.

[00:40:07] David: I, I like to think of it, John, and maybe this will, maybe this is just me that does this, but if you've ever been to the, to the movie theater to watch a 3D movie, , and at some point during the 3D movie, I always have this moment where I go, I wonder what it looks like with my 3D glasses off, and, and I'll take and I'll peek over at the top of my 3D glasses and all of a sudden the picture separates and it starts to sort of fall apart and be harder to track.

[00:40:35] I, I kind of feel like that image is what we've got going on, that Paul is in the right movie theater. Right, and he's watching the right film, but this encounter with the resurrection allows him to put on the glasses and Jesus becomes the lens through which he sees, and all of a sudden everything else makes sense, which is why we don't get Paul going and Christians please hear this.

[00:41:00] We don't get Paul going. Get rid of the Old Testament. It's not important anymore. Now we've just got Jesus. And that's enough. What we get, Paul going and look at Romans. Look at Corinthians. We're going, okay, now we go back and we start reading these texts again and we see different resonancies in these texts because we have the right lens.

[00:41:22] And that's a like a confess. A Jewish friend would say, it's not how I see it, but that is the Christian take on. What we've got going on here is that these text. Deeply and profoundly important and essential actually to make sense of things, but we have to have the right interpretive lens and for Paul and for us, it's the resurrection of Jesus.

[00:41:43] John: totally. And, and I think I as you, as you shared that, David, I, I hear, I hear Paul. Praying for the church at Ephesus, that they would have the spirit of wisdom and revelation so that they would know him better,

[00:41:59] David: Mm.

[00:42:00] John: that the eyes of their heart would be enlightened, so that they would know the hope to which they're called.

[00:42:08] And we realized then, Why perhaps Paul is so zealous in the centrality and the supremacy of Jesus. Because for I, I think for Paul, I, I think all things come to life through him and. Paul then sees a whole life dedicated to Tana, to Torah, to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob come to life resurrected in a fresh way by encountering with the resurrected Jesus.

[00:42:43] And I think th that's what makes it so important. And I think if we were then to delve into the New Testament and read his letters, we see the obsession with Jesus. The obsession with the centrality of Jesus, the sin, the, the obsession with the supremacy of Jesus, with, with the awesomeness of Jesus. He declares for me to live is Christ and to die is guillen.

[00:43:07] And you get this immense commitment to the person of Jesus because it is the person of Jesus on the road at Damascus that made sense of everything for a young man called Saul

[00:43:20]