Barnabas: Pastor not CEO | Disruptive Presence 40

In which John and David ponder the role that Barnabas again plays in the story of the early church. Stepping into a situation and seemingly knowing the right thing to do we recognize Barnabas as the pastor many of us need to emulate.

Read John’s book that, amongst other things, explores the influence of Barnabas - click here

Episode 97 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 40

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Transcript

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[00:00:00] John: So David, we're back and I so enjoyed our previous reflections on Saul, the Damascus. That introduction of the timeline that we looked at, if any of our listeners have missed that one. And you've jumped straight into this, it's definitely worth going back one and having we listen on that, I think it really set the context, not only of Paul's timeline for us, but really showed us the weight that's on this mountain. 

[00:01:12] And in some ways we're, we're now getting a little bit of a sense, oh, oh, we're, we're following something that's, that's going to be very interesting here as far as the book of Ex narrative. It's concerned. And we sort of left, it, left him at, at Damascus growing stronger and strong. Baffling his opponents introducing the one, the Christ, the Son of God this name that the disciples are calling on. 

[00:01:37] All of those gorgeous connectors that you reflected on. And then, and then we find him making his way. To Jerusalem. And we get this, he escapes out of Damascus and then after some time, and we, we sort of discussed the fact that was a three year gap. He's now in Jerusalem. So should we, should we pick that little bit up and have a little reflect on what went on at Jerusalem? 

[00:02:00] David: Yes, and clearly everybody's struggling a little bit with, with Paul or Saul. In fact, everybody's struggling with him. The, the , the people who don't believe in Jesus are like, wait a minute, what's going on here? And the people who do believe in Jesus are not entirely like that Line in verse 26 of AP chapter nine, he comes to Jerusalem. 

[00:02:22] He tries to join the disciples, but they're all afraid of him not believing that he really was a disciple. Like so the level of mistrust that. Saul has clearly been creating is that somebody at least is thinking, what if he's just pretending to be a disciple so that he can infiltrate our ranks? 

[00:02:39] Something we know that happens in oppressive regimes around the world. So I, I think this is the fascinating. Journey for Saul because he has, he has become a traitor and therefore is considered untrustworthy on both sides, which is fascinating and I think believable. Like when I read this part of the story, 

[00:03:01] That makes a hundred percent sense to me that I think, I would say as a Pauline Scholar, as somebody that spends more than enough time thinking about Paul, I think if I was those disciples, I would've asked exactly the same question. 

[00:03:17] John: Of 
 

[00:03:17] David: I'd be like, Hmm, maybe not this guy 

[00:03:20] John: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You, you, you totally understand and doesn't it chew you again, even with the time gap, the impact he must have made. 

[00:03:29] David: yes. 
 

[00:03:29] John: On our last podcast, we reflected that there's, there's possibly this three year time gap between this sort of Damascus experience and arriving in Jerusalem, and they're still nervous about him. 

[00:03:39] So this man must have really raised serious trouble. As a persecutor of the way, because three years down the track, they're still nervous about him. In, in the context of that. And, and, and yet, I love this idea, David. I, I, I, I was just, I, I love the language of the NIV V around this. It says he tried to join the disciples. 

[00:04:03] So we, we, in our last podcast, we reflected on the fact that Paul probably had this sort of three year. Where he's studying, he's learning, he's receiving revelation. There's even a sense in which he may even be suffering and wrestling with certain issues within these great moments of revelation that he's receiving. 

[00:04:23] But, but he doesn't stay there in this place of aloneness or isolation. I, I'm sure he was surrounded by Christian community even there, but, but he, he. Understands, right if, if I'm going to be able to fulfill what God has called me to fulfill, I've got to join. What is going on? I've got to find a way to connect to the Christian community at Jerusalem because of its influence and significance. 

[00:04:50] And, and I cannot stay aloof from that. And I love this, this, his compulsion to join this to be glued to them, to be connected to them. And, and I think that's a great, I, I think there's a great. Encouragement to us as followers of Jesus that although many of our experiences can be very personal, intimate, individual in many ways a personal experience of Jesus and a personal experience in the word that, that, that, that, even with, with Paul now in his great moments of revolution, he still seeks to be joined. 

[00:05:25] To community, and he still seeks to be joined to the apostles. And I love that little, I, I love the, I love the language around that. I thought that was really, really nice. And a nice little nod to that. 

[00:05:35] David: And, and of course this, this little window again, just to speak to the chaos of Saul's life. If we remember in the last episode, we were overlaying Second Corinthians and Galatians at times, but you know, he, he stays with them in Jerusalem, moves around freely, speaks boldly in his name. and then they try and kill him. 

[00:05:53] Paul tells us in Galatians, this was a 15 day period, so I mean, he got into trouble really, really quickly. He's like, he disappears off the map for three years in Arabia comes back and two weeks later they're like, oh no, okay, Paul, you need to go somewhere else because you're gonna get in trouble, And so 

[00:06:12] John: it really is striking, isn't it? It's. 

[00:06:15] David: I think it was Tom Wright that said whenever Paul went, every anywhere there appeared to either be a revival or a riot. And and , then Tom makes this beautiful stage, he said, and whenever I go anywhere, they just serve tea and 

[00:06:29] John: Love that. Love that. 

[00:06:31] David: But in between all of that, not to skip over it. So they were all afraid of him not believing he was really a disciple. But Barnabas Barnabas. Talk to me about Barnabas 

[00:06:44] John: Oh, I, I, I love this and I know some of our listeners who've tracked this for a long time will know I've, I've got a bit of a thing about Barney. He is one of my heroes, I have to say. And of course we've, we've met him before. 

[00:06:55] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:56] John: In Act four, we, we spent a, a fair bit reflecting on this amazing, amazing man who liquidates asset and gives his assets and lays them at the apostles feet. 

[00:07:07] And it's just absolutely beautiful and, and you have this moment of tension. In the tax, this in incredible moment verse 26, but they were afraid of him not believing that he really was a disciple. So he's tried to join the disciples. They're not convinced. He is a disciple. 

[00:07:23] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:24] John: what's gonna happen, bud, Barnabas. 

[00:07:27] And, and you get, you get this gorgeous intervent moment from this amazing, amazing man. And, and I don't know if I, I, this is maybe the preacher in me now, David, but I'll, I'll notice the gorgeous language over, over the two verses 26 and 27. Barnabas Toki brought him or led. And then told them about him. 

[00:07:53] Essentially these three actions took LED told he's, he's acting here as not just a brother in faith. He's, he's, he's acting as an advocate. First of all, he is literally putting. His own reputation on the line on behalf of Saul. And, and, and, and I love this, this sort of language, you he, he, he clearly knows the story of Saul intimately cuz he says, it says that he spoke of how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord. 

[00:08:22] That the Lord had spoken to him and Highend Damascus, he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. So it, it's Lucas dropping this detail in. Barnabas has clearly done his work. He's done his research. He's checked out on this man. He's tracked his story wherever Saul has been for three years. Barney's got a handle on the story here, and he finds out this man's in Jerusalem and immediately steps into the breach of the hesitancy, the uncertainty, the sense of suspic. And fear and Barnabas does something that changes. I think the course of his history because in stepping forward to advocate for Saul, he ensures that Saul doesn't go awol, that Saul doesn't get pushed out to the extremes, that Saul doesn't become this sort of edgy agitator from the fringe. But Saul ends up becoming a mainstream player in the mission of the church, and that is all down to Barnabas. 

[00:09:21] When, when, when, when I think of Saul's contribution to the New Testament, and I'm reading letters like Galatians and First Corinthians and Ephesians, I'm also sort of, Thinking about Barney, I'm thinking about had Barney not stepped up, what would've happened to Saul? Now, now we, we believe in the providence of God to work it all out in the end, but Barnabas is a significant contributor here, and his action in no small way affects the future of the church and the mission of the church in the book of Acts. 

[00:09:54] David: And so just for our listeners, a couple of things. We, the episode we're referring to, if you need to refine it again, is backs episode 20 of this series. So you can find that on the two text.com website. You can go back and listen to episode 20 where we talk about Barnabas and how we, so we know him in the story. 

[00:10:11] So you may wanna refresh your mind to that. I'll also put a link, John, to your cuz your book that we talked about in a podcast last year in our couple of bonus episodes. You spent a bit of time talking about at Barnabas in the life of John Mark, don't you? And. 

[00:10:25] John: Mm 
 

[00:10:26] David: So, well, I'll put a link to John's book in the show notes as well to help 

[00:10:29] John: oh, bless you. 

[00:10:30] David: Just sort of, perhaps jump in and connect to that. 

[00:10:32] But, but I think what I love about this, and this is what I think we in the episodes, the bonus episodes we did last May about your new book. I think what you're seeing here is atypical Barnabas behavior. This is what this incredible character who just sort of floats around on the edges of the New Testament story He is acting exactly as we see when we see elsewhere. 

[00:10:55] This is how Barnabas is, isn't it? 

[00:10:58] John: It's true. It's so true. And in fact there's a gorgeous but Barnabas took. 

[00:11:03] David: Mm. 
 

[00:11:03] John: the same phraseology and language used of John Mark in X 15. Where Paul says, no, the boy's not coming with us. And it says, and Barnabas took him. And you sort of think, is that, is that Luke just given a little tip of the hat there and, and maybe, maybe wins, saw Saul, or Paul reads Luke's words back again. 

[00:11:24] He goes, oh. , Barnabas did that for me too. Right? And, and this, this gorgeous symmetry of expression. He, he took John Mark, he took Saul and, and, and I love this advocacy for, for me, David, I'm, it's funny when, when we think about. The Ephesians four 11 ministry gifts. We've got named apostles, named prophets, named evangelists and named teachers. 

[00:11:49] You, you, you, we, me and you, just off the top of our head, could come up with names for all of those categories in those four 11 ministry gifts. If we wanted to try and name a pastor who's named as a pastor Shepherd in, in the explicit sense, Paul the Apostle, or Paul the Shepherd, were sort of struggling a little. 

[00:12:09] David: Yeah, 
 

[00:12:09] John: And I think, I think Barnabas, if I was creating a template for what a Shepherd pastor looked like, I think Barney is the d n a that we want to get ahold of here. Cuz I think, I think he, as you say, this is not exceptional behavior. This is now part of a pattern behavior, which will repeat itself on at least another two occasions explicitly in the context of the X narrative. 

[00:12:36] And Barnabas, really, I, it, he, he's an amazing, an amazing person for me, David, in that he seems to sit on the fringe of the story and yet he cannot be. 

[00:12:46] David: mm mm. 

[00:12:46] John: his sort of word wordage in the book of X is quite small, certainly compared to Paul, 

[00:12:54] David: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:12:54] John: goodness, he burns bright in the text and stands out and, and, and I. 

[00:13:01] If, if we do get the chance to go to heaven and, and meet someone, I, I do wanna have a coffee with Barney. I really do. I, I wanna sit with him and just thank him for John, mark and thank him for this moment because I think his contribution is incalculable because of his 

[00:13:19] David: you said. As well about, about his pastoral heart. And I, and I hope there are that, pastors that listen to us hear that, I think there's this immense pressure on pastors in the contemporary context to model their pastoral ministry on something which is not pastoral. Right. And I, I've, I've been reflecting a lot on this recently about how this pressure to be the c e O. 

[00:13:45] Pastor, to be the, the great leader of people pastor. And I think we want to confess that the New Testament model of pastor, which is a little sketchy at times, but you know, because I think my take on it is the reason the Bible, the New Testament writers don't model pastor for us. 

[00:14:05] Explicitly is because they assume that we will see Jesus as the true pastor. Right. And so I think my suspicion from silence is that they never struck the New Testament re writers that they would need to un, he is the good shepherd to just go and do what, shepherd Pastor is the same word. 

[00:14:20] So I almost the sense of you don't need us to unpack what, what the shepherd gift looks like. It's go and do that. But I think because of that, we have inserted into the silence in the West, in the modern Western context for sure. our view of what a leader is, which is not the Jesus model. 

[00:14:36] And I think we would all do much better to sort of just track Barnabas for a little while, read a little bit more of Jesus and see this model of the pastor that cares for people, that shepherds people, that loves people that you know that I actually think. I think it's Simon Chan the Singaporean Pentecostal theologian that says that we need to lean into the, the priestly model of the pastor actually. 

[00:15:02] That, that, that, my, my, my role is to call and shape and, and draw these people into a beautiful journey with Jesus. Not the c e o model that, you know, Hey, I'm here to run a church that you might come to. So I think there's some real beautiful stuff that you see. Look at barn. , he puts his neck on the line. 

[00:15:19] He has to overwhelm the same questions that everybody else is overwhelming. Is this man really a disciple? And Barnas decides that despite evidence, data, lack of support, he's going to, he's going to gather with this person and draw them, into the community. He's just gorgeous 

[00:15:39] John: It's stunning. It's stunning and I think, I think your reflection, David, is very, very powerful and I think whoever's listening to us, if you find yourself in a leadership position, Whatever your leadership structure and whatever your labels and whatever, whatever way we shape ourselves in running local churches, for example. 

[00:15:58] We must never have the voice or the heart of the shepherd far from that conversation. 

[00:16:03] David: Mm. 
 

[00:16:03] John: So, so when the shepherd is excluded from conversations or part and excluded from even leadership culture and leadership structure, then the emphasis becomes about, Organization, it becomes about achieving things. Now, is it important for the church to achieve things and important for us to organize ourselves? 

[00:16:27] Well, of course we're living in a modern context. We've gotta do things well, but, but of course our primary call is to grow people. Not just develop brilliantly efficient organizations now, now I, I'll get criticized if people say well, well, brilliantly efficient organizations are all part of growing people. 

[00:16:44] Of course. As long as we keep the shepherds in the room, cuz the shepherds will keep reminding us. That there's no point to structure in brilliant organization and, and fantastic programs if actually we're not growing people into followership of Jesus and ul. Ultimately, the role of the Shepherd is to help assist the process of growing strong sheep and growing strong followers. 

[00:17:08] A, a man of God said to me years and years and years ago, and it has remained for me. A constant guide. He said, son, and I was a young man at the time, and he was a seasoned man of God. He said, son, never lose the smell of sheep off your clothes. And even as a teacher and someone who has the privilege of opening up the scriptures and getting to preach and in some wonderful contexts, I, I have to keep reminding myself of that, that my job is not just the text. 

[00:17:41] My job is. 

[00:17:43] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:43] John: And if I keep thinking sheep, I'll be better at the text. And if I keep thinking sheep, I'll be better at communicating that text. It's when I forget the sheep, then, then my communication and my gift becomes about excellence and brilliance and impressing people and not actually about equipping people to be better followers of Jesus. 

[00:18:05] So, forgive me listeners, if that sounds, I, I hope that hasn't come across any way Pius or pompous or. Or superior. It's, it's actually expressed with the deepest sense of humility in my heart. But I, I, I look at lots of leadership books that are coming out even with a Christian genre, and, and Shepherd is absent from the conversation. 

[00:18:27] And I think that is a mistake that we must be powerful not to allow to continue. So, so Barnabas appeals to us all and, and maybe continues to speak to us in the 21st. 

[00:18:40] David: Well, I mean, I, and I like, I, I would want to say that strongly as, as well, John. It is, it has been apparent to me for quite some time that the, the so-called Christian Leadership Movement that produce these books and conferences and videos and all these sorts of resources Almost entirely fail to wrestle with Jesus as a leader. 

[00:19:02] And, and I think it's exposes, and I've, and I've said this before and I think I've said this before in this PA podcast, but I think it exposes a problem that what's actually going on here is we are looking at the models of leaders in wider society and trying to find examples within the Bible that reflect those models so that we can, and I say this in, in, in air quotes, That we can Christianize, the, we can christianize the, the what is essentially a secular. 

[00:19:31] Model of leadership and, and secular models of leadership are always about conquest and conquering, right? They're about, how do I put the other competition out of business and do my thing? And a lot of people think that we, the church, have been called to conquer the world, that we've been called to take over the world. 

[00:19:46] You think about the. Fight. We talk about this language of battle, not realizing that Jesus has come to save the world, and not to conquer it. He's come to conquer evil, but not to, but he's come to save the world and, and so we. We have to allow this dynamic, I think of the good shepherd of the, it struck me as you were speaking there, what is Barnabas doing here? 

[00:20:09] But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. Okay. You know what, you know what struck me when you were talking and I was, I'm looking at the verse while you're talking. I just, I found myself thinking, Jesus said, a man once said a hundred sheep, and, and one went missing, did. , go look for that one and bring, bring it and return it to, and was there not great celebration more for this one sheep that was lost than the 99 that did not get lost? 

[00:20:33] Barnabas is in that little verse there if you want to. He's living out the parable of the lost sheep. He's absolutely, he's putting his neck on the lane, heading out into dangerous country to find that witch is lost. And Jesus says, I am the good shepherd. I am the good pastor. , and I will lay down my life for the sheep like this is. 

[00:20:54] Like if as a very basic level, you gotta have enough smell of the sheep on you to be able to spot that one's gone missing . You know what I mean? Like, so, so I, I, I think I, I love the way that you've brought that resonance to this, and I, and I hope I'm not, people don't think, oh, you're stretching it there, but I just love this and it struck me as you were talking, the Acts 9 27 in Barnabas's behavior is the parable of the lost sheep being acted out by the church. 

[00:21:21] It's like Barnabas heard it. and believed it.  

[00:21:24] John: Yes, totally. And, and, and I, and again, David, there's a lovely echo back to X four. He, he liquidates asset and brings it to the apostles. Now I know it's slightly different reflection there, but, but here's a man who, who not only is committed to the cause of mission, but he's committed to the cause of people. 

[00:21:47] David: is so good. 

[00:21:48] John: So, en liquidated in his asset, he's saying, I believe in the mission, the mission to feed the poor, the mission to reach the loss, the mission to help the margins. 

[00:21:57] David: go sell everything you have and give it to the poor and come follow me, 

[00:22:00] John: there you are. So, so you, you, you're getting, you're getting someone who it seems to me, it seems to us, has picked up more of Jesus. 

[00:22:12] Then sometimes we may even give him credit card credit for we, we sort of think, well he's, he's, he's come into faith after Jesus sort of thing. But he's clearly caught Jesus seriously and he to the point he brings offering and now he brings a person. And and I love that he's not just committed to this idea of mission, but now this is embodied in bringing a person to the apostles because he believes in the restoration and transformation of people. 

[00:22:46] And, and I love it. I, I, I think if, if you see those two little moments of bringing together, I think they're absolutely stunningly gorgeous. And Barnabas starts to emerge as a serious person within this text. 

[00:23:00] David: It's so, it's so good. . It's so good. So then thinking then also in this about about Saul. I mean this is quite a, quite a complex time for Saul actually, isn't it? Because somehow his life is in this very brief point, point, sort of turning in on itself. He is , he's far from home. The, the, the, he's now requiring help from the people he was sent to kill. 

[00:23:30] John: Hmm. 
 

[00:23:30] David: You see this sense almost that he is being drawn deeply into the life of Jesus, actually, that that, that he, as we see becomes so true of Paul in his later life. He talks about being poured out as an offering for everyone. He talks about, trying to model and imitate Jesus in his life, but here he finds himself, quite quickly. 

[00:23:52] He's in exactly the same spa space as Jesus was. He stays with them. Like I said, we know this is a 15 day period. He stays with them. He has a good time with the apostles. So we learn that from, from Galatians one. He's speaking boldly in the name of the Lord, right? And he's talking and debating. 

[00:24:11] But as we saw with Jesus, as we saw with Stephen this. Seems to have a trajectory to it, 

[00:24:19] John: it 
 

[00:24:20] David: that, that I laugh nervously, not in in the humor of it, but it seems to have a trajectory to it, that speaking about the name of the Lord is creating and generating difficulty. And so Saul now is part of that story. 

[00:24:34] John: Yeah, totally. And isn't it interesting, David, that in his bold proclamation, which is interesting, that it's the same, same sort of phraseology of Barnabas Barnabas says he spoke boldly in Damascus, and then Paul goes out, or Saul goes out and speaks boldly in Jerusalem. There's this gorgeous synergy. In the text there, but, but I, I, I love this and, and I don't know if I'm overcooking this David, so I'm gonna throw that yet and then let, let you work it out. 

[00:25:00] But it, it says he, he debated with the Hellenistic Jews, but they tried to kill him now. But before we get to the idea of trying to kill him, I. 

[00:25:13] Am I seeing something almost redemptive here? So, so I can't read that and not think of Steven and Steven's. Execution. Saul, I think, and Steven were friends so that, we, we've discussed that before, so we're not gonna go over that old ground 

[00:25:33] David: Yeah. 
 

[00:25:34] John: Saul coming from Tarus, although educated in Jerusalem, would be extremely familiar with the sort of Hellenistic Jewish influence in Jerusalem and how zealous they were. 

[00:25:47] But he would also have understood that it was essentially the hell. Group or groups of people that came together to sort of agitate for the execution of Stephen. So essentially it seems it's the hellistic followers that kill Stephen, and yet Paul makes a beline. Or Saul makes a bee lane for them now. 

[00:26:11] Now there's a sense in which, yeah. Well, I, I, I would, that may be argued as a natural trajectory. He's, he's going to groups of people he's had previous contact with and therefore he's got an opportunity to speak to them. And I think that's all there. But for me, the fact that Luke highlights that is this, Is this Saul, going back to the group that he, to whom he approved when they executed Steven, is Saul, is this a full circle moment? 

[00:26:40] Is this Saul trying to do something that, that maybe he feels he needs in memory of Steven to force? Now I can't prove that from the text all, all I can allude to is the fact that. Why the Hellenistic juice? Why not just the Jewish community in Jerusalem, but it goes specifically to them and, and I think there's something slightly gloriously and beautifully redemptive here in this context that maybe Saul's trying to achieve. 

[00:27:06] I, I could be overstretching that David, so if I am, please feel free to put me back in the box on that one. But, but it, it, it seemed to sit out for me a. 

[00:27:16] David: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting I suppose, despite Paul's arguments of being. Of Jew, of Jews and a, a Pharisees of Pharisees. He is also, of course not coming from Jerusalem. He's not coming from Israel. So, I, I, I'm just reflecting on his own status. So these are some level his people. 

[00:27:33] There's, there's clearly a tension between the, even right back to how do we end up with Stephen and the other deacons. We end up with them because of attention around, Hellenistic Christians and, and, and Hebrew Christians. I wondered when I was reading it, which really leads me to the same places as you. When he's called to be this apostle to the Gentiles, we, we, acts 10 is still coming. Right. I wonder if there's an early sense of, well, let's start with the Hellistic Jews. There's but, but I'm also tempted to think that this is his community, so I don't like, I think your point is really valid that we, we don't want. 

[00:28:19] Ignore the fact that this story has just taken a huge circle. So we started, if you go back to chapter eight, we're in Jerusalem. Stephen is creating trouble amongst the, amongst the Hellistic Jews. Saul is there at the extermination of Stephen, and now here we are at the end of chapter nine. 

[00:28:42] Saul, having been sent out or chosen to go out, at least he's gone out with approval to try and destroy more heists. He's, he's not, he's heading out to Damascus area now, ends up back with the theists, him having changed, but apparently. Them having not , so they like, like they, so, so there is, there's definitely a cyclic loop going on there and I can't, I can't believe that. 

[00:29:05] Luke is very specific in verse 29, that he is, he is debating with the, with the hellas, to use the Greek word there. He, he's not just talking about just, generic followers of, of, of the way of Israel. He, he's a very specific group in mind that, that, that Saul is engaging with. 

[00:29:25] So I, I think, I think he's a beautiful resonance John of, of this possibility that. That Saul is back where he started, but in the second time round he has been changed. And and, and that's And isn't that the story of Jesus? That we keep going around. I, I, I was actually, a little side note, but I was I was involved in a retreat this past weekend and we were talking about the liturgical calendar, that we do. 

[00:29:51] Depending, every Christian follows the liturgical calendar just a different extent. So you've got your, your very basic followers, you know that we use Christmas and and Easter, and then you have your more advanced followers who are like advent and land and at Trinity Sunday in Pentecost and all these sorts of things. 

[00:30:07] But the idea of the liturgical year is that every. We start a new year, but we spent a whole year living through the story of Jesus. So although we think, are we gonna start this again? But we have been changed in the process of this year and, and I think isn't that life, that whether if you follow the liturgical calendar, your new year starts at the beginning of Advent, somewhere around the end of November. 

[00:30:29] If you live by the Roman calendar, it's January 1st and we keep redoing January 1st. But if we're doing it well, we come back to January one in a better place than we. the previous January one, and I can, I get this sense of this resonance here that, that, like here we are, two chapters later from the Steve Steven story. 

[00:30:48] And we're back in the same place, 

[00:30:50] John: Yes, absolutely. 

[00:30:52] David: but there's been change. Some of the characters have adjusted and Saul has stepped into the ministry of Stephen and now where Stephen was the one arguing with these people. Now the one who oversaw his death is back making the same argument for Stephen and Steven's. 

[00:31:09] Steven's work is, is not complete, but is But is it fulfilled in some way? 

[00:31:15] John: Yeah. I, I, yeah, I, I think I, I think it's beautiful and I think that's maybe what I was aiming. I, I think there's a harvest here of Steven in this moment. I think, I think, I, I can't read this and not think Steven, so I think something of the, like the blood of Ibel, that right to the Hebrews says, cries out from the ground and, and to sense in which. 

[00:31:42] Is Stephen's blood now has Steven's blood seated this amazing redemptive moment where Saul is now back with this community talking about Jesus. But then of course, we get this gorgeous kickoff moment where Stephen was executed. escapes and he's not killed. And then a new chapter begins. So Steven doesn't get to see the explosion of the people of the way across the earth. 

[00:32:07] But sa. Ironically who tried to stop the explosion of those people across the earth is now going to become one of the foremost protagonists of the explosion across the earth. But it's interesting, just as Stephen annoyed. The Hellenistic group and they try to kill, well, they did kill Steven SA annoys them. 

[00:32:26] And when word gets out that they're trying to kill him, then they get him out. So the churches clearly got smarter to this whole dynamic that, look, look, were you, martyrdom isn't the only option here. So I, I, I think the early church weren't afraid of martyrdom and the fact that all of the apostles of the 12 post resurrection ascension, who are put in place in the beginning of act, all of them except John are martyred. 

[00:32:53] I think that they're, they're clearly not afraid of martyrdom. But it doesn't have to be the only option, and it doesn't have to be the first option. And where Steven's Martyrdom kicks off an incredible explosion of persecution and ironically expansion, we now get Saul avoiding martyrdom. And being a protagonist for another phase of expansion, which we're about to see. 

[00:33:18] And of course it's, it's wonderful that, again, a, an a lovely little full circle bit there, David, which, which I think is not coincidental in the text. Is that, When the believers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus, which of course is where he's originally from. 

[00:33:38] Planted back in Gentile territory and in, in No mean city, it's a serious city, is Tarsus. It's a strategic city. It's a famous. It has an incredible history and it has an incredible strategic significance for the gentile world as far as the gospel's concerned. So, so you, you get this lovely kickoff into a new thing instead of martyred, and we've now got the opportunity to go again. 

[00:34:07] Mai mother used to say Grown when I grew up in Bevi. He said he who fights and runs away lives the fight another day. So you, you get, you get saw running or being helped to run for the hills, but he starts again and this incredible mission kicks off. 

[00:34:21] David: Oh, it's wonderful, John, and, and I'm, I'm thinking like, as you were saying that I think there's a beautiful thing that the verse 30, when the brethren or the brothers and sisters learned of this, They took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to TAUs. And I get the impression that there's at least an illusion here, that they have financed this. 

[00:34:42] They did it, they sent him off. This is the same group that we're like, you know what? We're kind of afraid of him. Let's not believe he's really a disciple. So Barnabas has done some phenomenal work in 15 days that they've gone from let's not talk to this guy to let's, let's, figure out how to save his life at potentially our personal cost. 

[00:35:00] John: Very good. Love 

[00:35:01] David: So I think that's interesting. You said something just a moment ago that is not connected. What I'm about to say is not connected to anything in the text, but it strikes me as, as, as as worthy of saying, coming out of just some teaching that I've been doing elsewhere. But you mentioned Abel, and as you mentioned Abel, I said, oh yes, it's beautiful. 

[00:35:19] You talked about Abel's blood crying out from the ground, right? So he's a little, a little reflection that he is. Like I said, please don't go looking, anyone that's listening for this directly in the text, Abel is the first person to die in scripture. Stephen is the first March the first person to die for Jesus in history. 

[00:35:39] So we've got, so that, that's as close as I can make to a connection here, but lemme just say this anyway, Al Abel's name in Hebrew Vapor, right? His, his name means vapor, which is actually quite interesting because. , it rarely gets translated that way in scripture. It more regularly gets translated as vanity. 

[00:35:58] The, the, the, the King James translated it as meaningless. So, there's this beautiful sort of thing where Ecclesiastes, and, and everybody that's had any exposure to church over the years knows the opening lines of Ecclesiastes. Meaningless, meaningless as the teacher. Meaningless, meaningless. 

[00:36:17] Everything is meaningless. But the Hebrew. Al Haval says the teacher vapor vapors says the teacher. And this, this gives you the option of completely rereading Ecclesiastes. The, the, the teacher is not saying that life is meaningless. He's not even saying that life is vanity. What the teacher is saying is that life is vapor, that it is here for a while, and then it is gone for a while. 

[00:36:41] And as he works his way through the story, The teacher in Ecclesiastes is pointing out, you have this very finite space here, and you are. But then he says, and I love this. I mean, this is the first few verses of Ecclesiastes, so we are vapor. But then he says, a generation goes and a generation comes. 

[00:36:59] It's a beautiful description of vapor, right? But the earth remains forever. The sun rises, the sun goes down and hs back to the place where it rises again. And, and. and you see like just when you said this, Abel, isn't that what's happening here, that Steven comes. And Steven lives out, his witness in this little moment of vapor that he has. 

[00:37:19] Sounds like maybe a dark ending to the podcast, and I hope people don't hear it that way, but, but the, the, the, that Steven's life is, is so fleeting and, and so easily extinguished, like vapor, so easy, little mist. It's so easy to go away. And yet the, the long arc of the Lord's plan means that here we are two chapters later, and the actual very person, they extinguish the vapor of Steven's 

[00:37:42] John: Yeah. 
 

[00:37:43] David: He's now back with his own vapor continuing in the way of the Lord, continuing the story. And, and it struck me, and I think one of the things that jumped into me, and I know that you didn't mean it this way when you said, you know that Stephen didn't live to see this, but if we then, if we then drop the story of Hebrews chapter 11 over this, the Hebrews writer would say to us, , but all of these witnesses, these martyr, martyr is the word witness. 

[00:38:09] All of these witnesses are now gathered around the throne of heaven 

[00:38:14] John: Hmm. 
 

[00:38:14] David: watching the story of God, that our lives may be vapor, but God's story is , is happening. And and I dunno, that was, I mean, like I say, that's not in the text here of Acts nine, but I, it just, it came to me through some other work that I'm doing at the moment that I felt it was poignant to. 

[00:38:32] John: Yeah. Gorgeous. And, and the only other little, I, that's a beautiful thought, which we, we should really land with. And the only other little thought I had as you were speaking was of course, Abel loses his life to a man. That is in conflict with God that, it's, it's, it's their view of God. Jonathan Sex refers this as the first sort of religious murder, the first murder in the name of God. Sort of thing. And, and it's interesting that, of course, Stephen loses his life in a, in a religious zealously context. And yet both men still speak and somehow their death was not inve for those who journey in faith. 

[00:39:17] And I, and I think it's a gorgeous moment of, of this reflection in the story that Saul having witnessed. The terrible execution of Stephen now it seems, picks up the pattern of Stephen and, and runs for the rest of his life for the cause that he now seeks to expand.