Ritual and Spontaneity | Disruptive Presence 45

In which John and David consider ritual and spontaneity in prayer. Acts 10 gives us an insight into why it might not be always best to choose sides on how to pray.

Episode 102 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 45

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Transcript

Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] John: Well, David, I have to say I loved our Cornelius reflections. I, uh, x chapter 10 I, I mean, I could have hung around that for a very long time, and I think it's such a significant thing in the context of the book of Acts and the trajectory of that. So, but we are, we are moving.

[00:01:09] And we're moving now into this incredible moment with with Peter. So we've had Peter at the end of chapter nine of Acts and his sort of physical trajectory towards the Gentile world. And then we've had this lovely interjection of Cornelius. And now Peter's being brought back into the story.

[00:01:29] So a, a significant moment which we're gonna think about, I should say to our listeners I am sounding a little bit hoarse. I did lose my voice at the weekend because of the little bug I picked up. So if I'm sounding particularly annoying, I'm really sorry about that, and I hope you can live with that.

[00:01:46] But the wonderful Dr. David Harvey will, will help as if my voice wins throughout the podcast. So let's see how we get on. So, David, can you read for us sort of, 

[00:01:57] David: your voice gives out during this recording, I have spent a lifetime preparing to talk in the space of others if they need to.

[00:02:09] John: Yes, yes,

[00:02:10] David: Nobody has ever said about me, John. Oh, David. Oh, he won't know why he won't have any words to say in that space.

[00:02:17] John: Come on. Come on now. I love that. I love that. 

[00:02:20] David: Yeah. 

[00:02:20] John: So, so that's Dave in, we're, we're gonna now jump into this wonderful.

[00:02:26] Incredible and controversial moment with Peter and just pick up his encounter with the Lord after thinking about Cornelius. So do you wanna read that for us, David, and we'll jump straight in.

[00:02:37] David: Yes, absolutely. So we'll read from chapter 10 verse nine through to verse 23. Today. It says this about noon the next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while it was being prepared, he fell into a.

[00:03:00] He saw the heaven opened in something like a large sheet coming down, being lured to the ground by its four corners in it. Were all kinds of four footed creatures and reptiles and birds of the air. And then he heard a voice sing, get up, Peter. Kill and eat. But Peter said, by no means Lord, for I have never eaten anything that is profane or unclean. The voice said to him again, a second. What God has made clean, you must not call profane. This happened three times and the thing was suddenly taken up to heaven. Now, while Peter was greatly puzzled about what to make of the vision that he had seen, suddenly the man sent by Cornelius appeared. They were asking for Simon's house and were standing by the gate.

[00:03:50] They called out to ask whether Simon, who was called Peter was staying. While Simon was still thinking about the vision, the spirit said to him, look, three men are searching for you now. Get up, go down and go with them without hesitation for I have sent them. So Peter went down to the man and said, I am the one you're looking for.

[00:04:10] What is the reason for you're coming? They answered Cornelius, a centurion, an upright, and God-fearing man who is well spoken off by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say. So Peter invited them in and gave them lodging.

[00:04:32] John: I love. Love that I do. The as as I listen to you, read that again, just the simplest thing that struck me. Hearing it read, I think I, I do love the fact that you, I don't know about you, but I, I listen differently to the Bible with my eyes than with my ears. So, if I just. I hear the Bible a certain way.

[00:04:56] When I hear the Bible read, I, I think I hear other things and I just loved that gorgeous little simple introductions says about noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof and I was just struck there. David by. Can I call it the providential chronology here?

[00:05:20] That that actually God is speaking to Cornelius previously, and even as the guys are on the way, the three people are on the way from Cornelius. Now the Lord moves into action and speaking to Peter, so.

[00:05:35] David: Yes.

[00:05:36] John: You get this lovely sense of even, even sort of before he has spoken to Cornelius, he knows he also has to speak to Peter.

[00:05:47] That actually there's, there's two conversations that need to be had here. And although they're, they're, they're, they're ultimately going to sink together. There's this lovely sense. You get a sense of suspense here. We don't even know how Peter's gonna react to the second conversation, even though the first conversation has already kicked into play.

[00:06:05] And that sort of, I, I love that sort of providential chronology in the story. I just, I just love the way it sort of felt in the opening of that.

[00:06:15] David: Well, even that's thought that, I mean, they're already on their way, aren't they? So. Peter is quite literally, I mean, it's, they, they're sort of leaving, earlier and they're already on their way. Peter hasn't even begun to have the vision yet. He's still not even on the roof and they're heading to Peter's house, trusting that he'll welcome them.

[00:06:38] And Peter has, has not the first idea that this is happening. And I mean, it's quite, it's quite brilliant, isn't it?

[00:06:45] John: Well, it is really in, in the sense that I, I, I think we get that sense again. That the Lord is up to. We, we've been talking about the disruptive presence of the Holy Spirit, and we see again that the Lord is up to something, that it's not just. At the mercy of human agency alone, although human agency is very, very important in the Book of Acts, and we see that all over the place and all over, I would say the biblical narrative too.

[00:07:13] But there's also this magnificent guiding hand of the Lord, connecting people, connecting events, connecting ideas, and, and, and yet, in the midst of this, it still feels. Like Peter could say no to the Lord here, so it it, although the Lord is at work, he's also, can I say this carefully? He's, he's also vulnerable to human agency.

[00:07:41] And even though humans are at work, they're maybe not seeing the providential hand of God guiding events. They, they, they, they're, they're just turning up, assuming Peter is going to receive them. But ironically, Peter has to have the same sort of level of encounter with God on a different conversation, but a same level of encounter with God that Cornelius has.

[00:08:04] These two events can truly sink and join together. And I, and I just love the, I, I love the combination of that, the providence of God, the human agency, the fact that these two are mystically, gloriously, majestic combining together, and yet one, one side is still vulnerable to the other, if that makes sense.

[00:08:26] I don't know if I'm making sense at all, but that's a sense of it. I'm, I'm,

[00:08:30] David: as you're saying it, that there's, there's a subtle theme implicitly happening over the previous few chapters that mean that this is not a huge surprise to you. The Ethiopian Euch is a similar situation. I remember in the episode that we recorded about that we were struck by even the timing of the text reading the, the Ethiopian Euch is reading the text just as Philip appears.

[00:08:58] Having had to set out on what you mentioned at the time is a quite substantial journey. So, Philip has to set out a particular. In order to turn up at the centurion's chariot at a particular time. We have Saul encountering Jesus on the road at a particular moment, and then an Ananias responding to go to a place and look for him.

[00:09:21] This seems to me to be the place where it becomes very explicit that the spirit is moving from both sides. We see both sides of the story, but in support of what you're saying. This is not new. The, the, the spirit's prodding and pushing and, and even. Even right the way back to the anani and Shi story, Peter seems to know what's going on despite us not entirely understanding how he knows what goes on.

[00:09:51] So, so I do love what you're saying there and see it as a, as a, as a kind of underlying. Theme that we are encountering, that the, the spirit, the disruptive presence is the spirit disrupting us. It doesn't mean the spirit himself is disorganized and random. Actually quite the opposite. You see this, this almost providential.

[00:10:15] I love that. The idea of pr providential chronology. There's something's happening, just moving and shifting things towards God's plan for the Gentiles. It's, yeah, it's, it's quite stunning. Isn't.

[00:10:27] John: It, it is. And, and the thing that I love about it and, and how the book of facts is shaped is that even though we, we can see the Lord at work, it doesn't feel like Peter and Cornelius and Ethiopian, Munich and Philip are sort of pawns on a chess board. It doesn't feel like they're being controlled. It doesn't feel like they're being.

[00:10:49] Manipulate it in a way against their will.

[00:10:52] David: Hmm.

[00:10:53] John: It seems that like the Lord is always looking like he did for Cornelius. Okay. Send to Joppa. And theoretically Cornelius could have said no, he's about to speak to Peter as we're, as we're gonna reflect on. Peter in theory does say no initially but comes around.

[00:11:11] David: as

[00:11:13] John: So, so you get this lovely sort of tension in God has a plan he's on with that plan. Some of that, some of that plan we're seeing, some of our characters see that plan in front of their face and other bits of that plan. It's like the Lord's doing it behind their pack, but. But in that plan, they're invited in a full and voluntary way to engage.

[00:11:35] They're never controlled into the plan. It's a sense in which they're invited into it. And I love that. I mean, I love that. I, I love that idea that this almighty god we serve still, and that's a mind blowing idea, allows John Andrews to engage to say yes or even say,

[00:11:58] David: Yeah.

[00:11:59] John: Ah, it's, it's remarkable. And I still, after many, many, many years, been a follower Jesus and studying the Bible.

[00:12:05] It still makes my head hurt a bit. That, that, that's an idea that we should revel in and rejoice in. So I just, just struck, it's a beautiful combination. Again, we see here.

[00:12:16] David: It's interesting as well in an ancient context. The synchronized time is fascinating as well, because that's a relatively new. Construct in, in, in the, in the modern world. It, it's really not until , it wasn't until railroads were really established that the idea of time and time zones as something we needed to pay attention to.

[00:12:43] Started to become sig significant because the idea of, well, why would I need to know what time it was over there? Because there was no need to coordinate two people arriving at the same time. And so time zones trains did that. And then when the telephone was invented, that made the need for a worldwide and awareness of what time it is everywhere. What's interesting for me here is we see time located around the hours of.

[00:13:10] John: yeah. Very good.

[00:13:11] David: so you have the, first, the first time we meet Cornelius, it's the ninth hour. And that, that's in, in the Greek, it's the ninth hour. I think most English translations put it at three o'clock, don't they?

[00:13:22] Which is the, the sort of I think that's the time of the evening sacrifices

[00:13:25] John: Yep.

[00:13:26] David: the, all that sort of, so, and, and where's evening prayer. But then Peter, he's at. He's at the sixth hour, isn't he? So he's in there, the midday prayer. So, so they are, it's interesting to see that they are, in a weird way, I don't wanna over egg this pudding, but, but Cornelius, the devout man is having a vision, quite likely when he's at the hours of prayer and cor and, and pizza.

[00:13:50] Likewise, the, the temple structure. Do you hear what I'm just

[00:13:55] with there.

[00:13:55] John: No, I love that. I, I love that. I, I think that's very deliberate here and I think it's, and again, doesn't it show you there's a sense in which we're, we're seeing within the story? Both men, although they're going to hear very different things and they hear them in very different ways, both men are hearing from the Lord.

[00:14:15] In a context where they're open to hear or they're open to engage with the Lord. That structure, that sort of liturgical structure of following the time of prayer in, in many ways, positions their mind, positions their heart. I mean, if these are devout people, which both of them are Peter and Cornelius in different ways, the this is clearly not just mindless.

[00:14:41] They're engaging in the seasons of prayer, the times of prayer, because these are important moments to them. So there's something going on in their hearts. Like this morning, when I got up to, to do my, my devotions, I sit before the word of God and I go through a series of preparations in my thinking and in my prayers and in my confessions, which are about preparing me to hear the.

[00:15:06] David: mm.

[00:15:06] John: So it's not just, oh yeah, I need to read the Bible today. And, but for me, neith, there is a fixed time every day when I do certain things, and I find because of that, I have an expectation, a preparation, and an openness. Now, could the Lord speak to me from the Bible at sort of six o'clock in the evening when I'm watching the news?

[00:15:26] Of course. But the fact that I am deliberately at six o'clock in the morning, for example, sitting, going through certain rituals, I would say life-giving rituals that are opening up my heart and my mind to focus and to listen specifically if the Lord has to say something. I think that makes you more susceptible to that idea, and I think that that the fact that Dr.

[00:15:49] Luke shows. Three in the afternoon, Cornelius hears something probably because he's praying and at noon Peter hears something or sees something because he's praying that that can't be a coincidence. And I think that's, that, that's a real message to us all as followers of Jesus in terms of the rituals and liturgies of our prayer, devotions and reflections.

[00:16:13] Is that, is that, is that fair? You you think? I'm not pushing out too hard.

[00:16:17] David: Oh, I was so excited that you went that direction because if you didn't, as you started to talk, I was like, I must ask John about this because, so I'm really, I'm for one really happy that you went there because here's for me the subtle, I would say critique potentially is the right word to to use of. Of some forms of following Jesus.

[00:16:40] And I think, and, and you and me are well public about the fact we grew up within Pentecostal tradition,. Now, one of the things I think Pentecostal tradition gifted to us, and I really do mean the word gifted to us, is the idea that the Holy Spirit can, meet you while, while walking down the path at five o'clock at night.

[00:17:00] John: Yeah.

[00:17:00] David: I think one of the things that, that understanding of. The Holy Spirit. Took from us Was how to live with a good structure of prayer and spiritual space for God, and also a knowledge that, that God can bump into you and, and I think it's a false dichotomy that it's either or.

[00:17:20] Right. And, and this idea that all that type of Christian, they just pray ritual, ours and this type of Christian, they just wait for God to interrupt. I actually think that what we're seeing here in Acts chapter 10, and this is just striking me as we're talking now. And we've not read it all and I don't wanna, and, but people have read acts before, so I don't think these are spoilers, but by the end of Acts chapter 10, we will have, I'm gonna pray at this particular time, and a vision's gonna come in that time.

[00:17:50] I'm gonna pray at noon, and a vision's gonna come at that time and then unexpectedly midway through a conversation, the Holy Spirit's gonna break in. And it's only striking me right now, John, because of this conversation that Acts 10, I think, is. Not, not intentionally, but unintentionally. The model of what we're talking about is that actually have both Right.

[00:18:12] Have a structured prayer life. You, if you put a, if you put a webcam in, someone's in a family home and watch it, I can almost guarantee that there will be a window in, in that family's life where all of a sudden everybody appears in the house and starts to gravitate towards the table because they're hungry and they know that they're hungry.

[00:18:32] Now, here's the fas, fascinating thing. They're hungry and so they know it's dinnertime, so they go and eat. Psychologists would tell us one of the reasons they are hungry is they know it's dinnertime, right? And, and because it's dinnertime, we get hungry. And, and nobody looks at that family and says, look at that ritualistic family.

[00:18:48] Don't they realize they could just eat whenever they want? And, and think about that when you're getting in for your dinner or, or supper or whatever it is that, that you call that evening meal. It doesn't really matter whether. It's six o'clock and that's why you're hungry or you're hungry and now it's six o'clock, so you're going to eat.

[00:19:08] You've got into this ritual of knowing that food will be there at that time. And I think what can happen for us is the same as it approaches the the morning prayer hour or the evening prayer hour, you can actually start to be hungry for that prayer, and it's not insignificant that Peter is hungry in this story as

[00:19:26] John: Yeah, that's true. Literally. Yeah. No, that's so good. I, I, I totally. And I, and I think for any of our listeners, whatever traditions you come from, we, we want to be open to the spontaneity and the dynamic interruptions in interventions of the Holy Spirit and the Book of Act shows that, but you know, to have the undergirding of rhythm.

[00:19:50] Can I say the word properly? Ritual liturgy that's based in life, that's based in an expectation. My, my wife and I celebrate a weekly Sabbath. We, we, we anticipate our weekly time together and with the Lord. It's just beautiful. And those, and yeah. And when, when I stay in a hotel I, I get up for breakfast and I'm ready to eat breakfast, and I never eat the sort of breakfast I normally eat in a hotel at home, and yet I'm hungry at eight o'clock.

[00:20:19] And I, I wouldn't normally, but it's that anticipation. It's that expectation. So I, I, we would want to encourage our, our listeners, be open to the spontaneous, but also be committed to the intentional. And I, I believe that spontaneity can be intentionality at play. It's, it's that sense that the more intentional we are, the more spontaneous we can be.

[00:20:41] And I think it's into our intentionality that often the holy. Can really then flex us into the spontaneous and being open with that. So, so I, I don't think it's a coincidence that Peter at noon and that Cornelius at three have respective encounters with the Lord and I think that's worthy of our worthy of note there.

[00:21:05] Beautiful stuff that love that.

[00:21:07] David: And some, somebody helped me with this. Three words that we use. And if you're from a freer church tradition this, these words often have negative connotations to them. And, and I've maybe mentioned this before, but the words are liturgy and ritual. You've used them already. And the third word is ceremony.

[00:21:25] And and somebody helped me by saying this, liturgy is quite literally just the things that we. To draw us towards worship in God. So every church has liturgy, right? It's just that they, some of them look different from one another, right? But, So liturgy is the things that we do. And liturgy is composed of two things.

[00:21:42] Ritual and ceremony, right? And ritual is just the words that we say in the midst of the liturgy. And ceremony is just the things that we do

[00:21:53] John: Beautiful,

[00:21:54] David: in the midst of the, the liturgy. So,

[00:21:57] John: beautiful.

[00:21:57] David: a, if you look in the window at a, a high church, and. Pray the Lord's Prayer, they'll do a sign of the cross over themself.

[00:22:05] The Lord's Prayer is the ritual. The sign of the cross is a ceremony. You walk into a Pentecostal church and they, after two or three songs have a free moment of worship in which everybody raises their hands. That's their ritual and their ceremony, and, and for me, that really helped release me to think about this in a way of, don't.

[00:22:25] Don't just dismiss something because it can be called ritual or liturgy or ceremony. This is our whole lives. When you go to a wedding, do you take this man? That's ritual when the, the, the bride and groomer holding hands and putting rings on each other, that's the ceremony. And, and I found that quite liberating to think these are not negative things.

[00:22:45] I can and, and people say, well, sometimes they're lifeless and, and I say, well, I can make anything lifeless, right? I can make a ritual if, but let's be honest, and you may have been in a lot of services, I've had times of Pentecostal worship, which have been largely just people going through the motions as

[00:23:00] well. So we're always at risk of these things. What I love about Acts 10, Is that the spirit is very evidently, undeniably present in all three situations. Right? He's, he's present in the, in the, well it's, it's three o'clock. We better go than do the prayers. And he's present in the, I'm just busting into this sermon to start doing some stuff and I think we can, you can almost, I wish the church would just lay the argument down there and go, clearly both are good and.

[00:23:30] John: absolutely 100%. David. The other, the other thing I noticed just as you were, as you were reading again and just caught me again the guys are journeying towards Peter and it says Peter went up on the roof to pray. Now of course, I probably, many of our listeners will understand. First century world often the homes had flat roofs, so they, they would maybe have covered sections under rubs, like booths that they could perhaps sit under.

[00:23:56] Remember, this is at the coast, so maybe a nice cool sea breeze coming over for Peter. But I, I'll tell you what struck me again, was that Cornelius at his hour of prayer, three seems to be alone and Peter goes up onto the roof and he's. And again, you although these, these two stories will collide and we'll end up with a fantastic community conclusion to all of this, it's interesting that there is a can I say an aloneness a stillness, a quietness an intimacy in both moments of encounter.

[00:24:35] Which are, are worthy of our, of our consideration. You, the Lord can, as we're gonna see at the end of chapter 10, of course the Lord can speak to us in the crowd. And it's interesting, every time the Holy Spirit comes dynamically in the Book of Acts, it is to a group, not just to individuals. That's worthy of our thought process.

[00:24:53] Maybe a bit later, but, but I love this sense of. Aloneness A and the implication with that, I don't wanna overcook it, quietness stillness, focus. There there's a sense in which Peter goes onto the roof so that there's no distractions, there's no, there's nothing that's gonna pull his attention away from the Lord.

[00:25:16] And, and again is, is there that tension between things we do as a collective? We pray together as a group. We worship as a group, we serve as a group. We give as a group. We feed the poor as a group. But there's then again, this dynamic room being made for the individual to experience and encounter. And again, it's a both.

[00:25:39] I, I don't wanna neglect the group and we should be open to the group, but at the same time, I, I'm being, maybe I'm being called by the Holy Spirit as Peter was and Cornelius was to cultivate intimacy and comfort with my own self in the presence of God without distraction of noise or other people. Is that, is, is, is that a fair reflection, do you think?

[00:26:03] David: I think I was interesting. I, I was thinking as you were saying that the. I, I probably should say what's in the back of my mind when I say this, but Ananias, the chapter before is the same. He is,

[00:26:14] John: Yeah,

[00:26:14] David: appears to be alone. And and, but, but I think you're extracting just the wonderful, a wonderful principle there that actually builds on the previous thing that we've talked about, which is that number one, a rhythm and.

[00:26:28] Of life invariably means that you will do, it's, it's an old adage. The things you put in your calendar become the things that you do and, and the things you, you know that friend that you're like, yeah, we should totally get together sometime. If you don't put that date in, it just keeps getting, well, we should totally get together sometime.

[00:26:46] I, I think the structure and the plan, but then the intentionality of not just people, but I would say of noise.

[00:26:55] John: Yeah, so

[00:26:56] David: I, I think that once you've found the time to pray, I think you then need to find the space to pray. If I

[00:27:04] can. Frame it like that. And I I don't wish to be a Luddite. I mean, you and me are, quite literally sustaining a deep friendship through the wonders of modern technology.

[00:27:16] but I also think when you find the time to pray, one of the ways to make the space to pray is probably get away from your technology.

[00:27:25] John: It's true. So true. So

[00:27:27] David: modern technology. Cuz the Bible in a book form is a technology, but you know what I'm saying about that.

[00:27:32] John: No, no, it's, it's true. I, I, I totally, absolutely, 100%, one gazillion percent resonate with that. I think, I think for me, we're living in the noisiest generation in the history of the world. I, whatever age you are this is not, again, I'm, I'm totally, I love the technology. I've got, all of it in front of me here in this study.

[00:27:56] But I don't know. I don't know if it's just simply the comfort with following Jesus. I am craving more and more the stillness. And, and by stillness I don't just mean quietness, I mean stillness. I think there's a difference between quietness and stillness. So I, I think that, that beautiful Sam that we love the Lord is my shepherd.

[00:28:19] I, I shall not be one, makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside the quiet or still waters. And then it says this in the context of that, he restores my soul. I think, I think that that there is a, there is a definite link between the restoration, the return of, that's one of our favorite words in the Hebrew text, isn't it, David?

[00:28:43] That

[00:28:44] David: Yes.

[00:28:45] John: that returning word that that, that returning of the soul often. Only happens, or, or perhaps consistently happens in places of Green pasture and Stillwater. And, and, and of course I, the reason I made distinction between quietness and stillness, I think stillness is about me being at ease with myself as well as with the Lord.

[00:29:09] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:10] John: And I think, if you stand in a. At an airport or a train station or a restaurant, the the minute, the minute we feel a little bit awkward with the stillness or the silence, what do we do? We reach for the phone or we reach for the technology, and we're now being programmed to sort of not be bored.

[00:29:27] We're being programmed to not be still. And somehow, and this is where I think a Judeo-Christian worldview really can help us re-engaging with those rhythms, those opportunities. And that's why I love what you said there, David, not just the time, but the place. The place. I, I'm very blessed in the home that I live in.

[00:29:47] I, I have a couple of special places

[00:29:50] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:51] John: where I know that when I shut that door, I can, there I can have stillness. Now, I appreciate most of our listeners, many of our listeners won't have that, but find that place. At Bible College, it was a walk in the woods. I, I, cuz you know, the walls were way for thin.

[00:30:05] You could hear people literally turn over in their beds next door. So for me it was a 30 to 40 minute walk in the woods. That's was my, that was my stillness. But the older I'm getting, David, I, I, I don't know if it's just I'm older or I'm craving something deeper, but I love this.

[00:30:24] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:25] John: this stillness. I, I don't know if that makes sense or I'm just sounding old suddenly, but, but I, I love it.

[00:30:31] I love it.

[00:30:33] David: I am struck by the text in Jeremiah at the moment where Jeremiah is told, you, you, you stand at a crossroads, choose the ancient paths and walk

[00:30:46] John: Yeah. So good.

[00:30:49] David: I, I, I, I think that if we are serious about developing relationship with God, what we see from Peter and Cornelius here, what we see in Ananias you think back to, early in acts, the apostles going, listen, we've gotta take prayer seriously.

[00:31:09] Right? We've got to spend some time. And, and what I'm noting is, There are world worn paths of great saints of the church who have journeyed these things. And there, there is a, can I say, and I mean this respectful, even though it's not necessarily a respectful language, there's a modern arrogance that assumes we know how to do everything better and, and that we go, oh, you know what?

[00:31:34] You, you don't need a, you don't need a, and. I'm gonna defend, I'm, I'm not a Luddite on this, but you hear people say, oh, you don't need a, a prayer book or a, or a Bible, cuz there's this app now that does it all. And, and the app makes it easy because you don't need to look anything up. It just, it just spits out the data for you in the course of the day.

[00:31:52] And that's hugely helpful in certain context, in certain spaces. But we have to, I think we have to be careful of the quick and the fast and the convenient because sometimes it's in the struggle and the wrestling and. And the silence and the, I'm not quite sure what's going on here, but for me, what I'm learning is, one of the reasons I love praying the Psalms, and I know when I'm talking to you, I'm preaching to the choir, right?

[00:32:15] But, but you know, when I, this is what strikes me at the minute, if I can share vulnerably for my own devotional life, whenever I pray the Psalms, there's two things that come to me. There's a pretty good chance, right, because I, I pray the psalms according to the, the lectionary schedule, right? So whenever I pray them, is that pretty high chance that somebody else, somewhere in the world is praying these exact Psalms right now, and a person that I don't know is voice is joining with mine, maybe in a different language to the Lord.

[00:32:46] And I think that's, maybe that's a bit weird to hear. I think that's gorgeous. And then the second thing that strikes me is I am not the first person to pray these songs. So, like I am, I am joining with a chorus of thousands of years of, of devout people who have loved the Lord as Cornelius does.

[00:33:04] I'm praying these psalm, I bet you Cornelius has prayed some of these psalm. I'm, I'm. Guaranteed. Sure he has. Right? I, I, I will bet the house on that one. And and so it's an ancient path that is well traveled, right? And for time to time, it's fun to just step off that path and tramp through the woods and the, and the fresh grass and pray my own prayer.

[00:33:23] But after a while, if I'm not careful, I'll get a little lost out there. And, and, and in me, what that means is my prayers become all about me. And

[00:33:31] John: it's true.

[00:33:32] David: And they become shopping lists. Whereas then I come back onto the ancient path and I pray the Psalms and they remember, why don't you pray for your enemy?

[00:33:39] Why don't you, why don't you pray for that person that's been really horrible to you right now? And, and why don't you pray a thankfulness for this nature that you've forgotten about? And, and, and so those are the two things for me. It's that I'm sure I'm praying with someone else, and I know I'm praying on a path that other people have prayed in.

[00:33:56] And, and, and that silence and space of delving into those things, I think is the path that ultimately if we, if we learn from the ancient, ancestors and the faith, I think that's where we all end up if we're serious.

[00:34:10] John: So beautiful. So beautiful. I mean, speaking of ancient in, in my devotional reflections, I, I'm rotating again around Psalm 119 and I'm in the LAMA section. So in our modern Bibles, that's verses 89, sort of through to 96 and verse 89 says, your word oh Lord is eternal. It stands firm in the heavens. The stanza it verse stanza finishes to all perfection.

[00:34:41] I see a limit, but your commands are powerless. And this morning and I was thinking about some friends who are suffering. And they are suffering terribly. A couple of my friends, and as I reflected with that, in my back of my mind, my, my pain, my worry, my anxiety was lifted up to the boundlessness of the word of God, the, the greatness, the eternalness of God.

[00:35:08] And I love what you said, it, it's when we, when we walk these ancient paths and we allow, for example, the Sams to guide our steps in some of our praying, it lifts us above ourselves. It lifts us away from ourselves. We are desperately prone to look in and to allow our world to really center around us. And and I understand that.

[00:35:32] I understand that. But when you hear these words that, that your word is. It is boundless. If, if your law had not been my delight, LA that says I would've perished in my affliction. It's just absolutely magnificent. And however you're feeling, and whatever you're going through, six o'clock in the morning or nine o'clock in the evening, or whatever time you pick this up, this these glorious rhythms and truths, these moments of anticipation and expectation have the potential to open us up to eternal.

[00:36:05] Truth that can transform our hearts, our minds, and our behavior.

[00:36:11] David: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and another thing I I, I would say that would be for any prayer book, actually, if you're, if you look at the book of Common Prayer in North America, common Worship, the Anglicans in England the Psalms, which are a prayer book, one of the compellingly Good reason. To use guided prayers sometimes in your silent space, not just is it that it's the ancient path, but I, I would, I would firmly bet that you will realize as you read the Psalms, That you can pray things you would not normally dare to pray.

[00:36:47] John: True, true.

[00:36:49] David: and, and actually that's an, for me, it's another beautiful reason of stepping into that sort of pathway is the Psalms say things that I would say on pretty good confidence that you didn't realize you could say that to God

[00:37:02] John: Yep.

[00:37:02] David: and God will still love you and poor out his loving kindness and journey you with, with you on that and, and, I mean, I, I think, I mean, it fascinates me that I didn't anticipate a conversation about, about prayer at this level today,

[00:37:16] John: No, 

[00:37:17] David: I, I hope that what. People hear from both of us is that, that this is really where the magic is, is opening up your, and I mean using the word magic, 

[00:37:29] John: Yeah.

[00:37:29] David: in a teasing way there. But, but actually open up that sense of the broad deep stream that we swim in as people of the faith have moments where the Holy Spirit just busts into your life and changes everything, but also have moments.

[00:37:44] You know it, I'm praying because it's nine o'clock and and that's what I do at nine o'clock and I'm praying these words and and even if, and even just stretching our prayer life I think it's rich Fis that says, when you pray the Psalms and you read a particular Psalm and go, that doesn't mean anything to me.

[00:38:02] He says, well then just pray it for someone else, and and if you can't think of who that someone else is, let the Holy Spirit know that it's for someone else. I think. We, we can actually lean into the beauty of the disruptive presence, but also the simple presence of the Holy Spirit and and I and I, and so my hope is that, that even just, and this is what's beautiful about Slow Reed, that even these two little possibly throw away moments in the text actually open us up for it for, for a beautiful reflection on our own lives.

[00:38:33] You know what? Some, some 21 centuries later,

[00:38:37] John: Absolutely. Cornelius prayed. Something happened, Peter prayed, something happened. And I suppose on our next podcast we'll have a little reflect on what happened when Peter prayed.