Sacred versus Secular in Corinth | Disruptive Presence 93

In which John and David peel back layers of history, strategy, and divine connection to uncover how Paul's tentmaking was more than mere survival—it was a bridge to hearts and a canvas for the Gospel. We examine the shift as Paul turns his attention to the Gentiles, a move that reverberates through the evolution of the early Church and  informs his correspondence with the Corinthian assemblies.

Venture into the bustling streets of Corinth with us, as Paul, the strategic missionary, sets anchor for 18 months in this port city—a choice signaling a deeper intent and a broader vision. We scrutinize the impact of Paul's craftsmanship on his preaching, pondering whether his daily grind as a tentmaker may have sown seeds for the Gospel to flourish even beyond Corinth's shores. The arrival of Silas and Timothy with provisions is a turning point, affording Paul the luxury of dedicating more time to his evangelical mission, yet having learned that no work is too mundane for the kingdom of God. Reflecting upon Paul's 'tent making,' we celebrate the sanctity of balancing secular work with ministry, a practice as relevant today as it was in ancient times.

Episode 148 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 93

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Transcript

David: 0:05

Hi and welcome to the Two Texts podcast. I'm here with my co-host, john Andrews, and my name is David Harvey. This is a podcast of two friends from two different countries meeting every two weeks to talk about the Bible. Each week we pick one text to talk about, which invariably leads us to talking about two texts and often many more. This season we're taking a long, slow journey through the book of Acts to explore how the first Christians encountered the disruptive presence of the Holy Spirit. So John Acts, chapter 18, is upon us.

John: 0:44

Paul has left. Athens. It feels amazing when we cross the border into the other channels.

David: 0:53

It's true, I'm never sure whether our listeners celebrate or are just surprised that we've made it.

John: 1:02

You mean there's a chapter 18 in the book of Acts? Yes, there are folks, are folks, there is come on, now we have made it to 18 absolutely so we, we can exit, and maybe it's better to say it like this that we're.

David: 1:17

We're feeling paul, in the narrative at least, is accelerating his missionary journeys now. Now, I know that when we pay close attention to the narrative, he's spending time in these places, but but it feels like axe is picking up speed, doesn't it?

John: 1:33

it really does. It really does and and and we're about to jump into 18, and corinth feels really significant. I think our, if our, listeners are not already aware which I'm sure they are but we're going to spend probably a few podcasts in chapter 18 as well and it feels like this is a pretty significant moment in the life of Paul and also in the mission of the church to the Gentile world. And we've come out of Athens, which is absolutely saturated in idolatry, and it feels like Corinth is not sort of un-Athens-like. There's a lot going on there as well, and so it does feel like the intensity of the mission, especially with the Gentile focus, is really really ratcheting up, and in an amazing way, I think.

David: 2:27

And you also, of course, get the beginnings of some names that maybe you recognize If you've spent time in scripture. You start to go wait a minute. I've heard of some of these people. So, absolutely so. We're going to jump in at verse one of chapter 18, and you're going to read through to verse 11 for us. Yes, see what the text brings to us today.

John: 2:49

Absolutely. I'm honoured to do so. So it says this verse 1 of chapter 18. After this, paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla. Because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome, paul went to see them and because he was a tentmaker, as they were, he stayed and worked with them. Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

John: 3:28

When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them your blood be on your own heads. I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles. Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius, just as a worshipper of God. Crispus, the synagogue leader and his entire household believed in the Lord, and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized. One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision do not be afraid, keep on speaking, do not be silent, for I am with you and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city. So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half teaching them the word of God Wow.

David: 4:35

I love that final line there, john A year and a half teaching them the word of God, it's like the beginnings of a seminary education.

John: 4:46

Absolutely. Imagine having someone like Paul in your sort of church plant, kicking off the discipleship programs. Goodness, gracious me. Nice sort of gentle introduction to Torah.

David: 4:57

Come on.

John: 4:58

Come on.

David: 4:59

It's fascinating, fascinating, so fascinating text actually for us, I think, because there's so I mean there's, you know, we're in Corinth and even a casual reader realizes oh wait, we have. We have letters to Corinth story introduce us to a quite significant relationship that develops, and even in the bit that you've read already we can see the development of that relationship. He's there for a year and a half. Is this why we have these letters back and forward. And in the letters of the Corinthians we get the sense that Paul has quite an intimate knowledge of this community. He knows a lot about them. So I don't know if it's a major point to begin with, but it strikes me as fascinating that we're seeing an Acts connection to the rest of the New Testament happening now.

John: 5:54

It is, it's beautiful, it really is nice and it's one of the most pronounced connections, I think, for us, which is lovely. And of course, if our listeners have read what we call 1 and 2 Corinthians, you realise the sheer, both at word level and also at teaching theological level, that Paul is personally investing himself into this community. This is quite massive. And you know that first letter feels it's almost like as a father he's coming to correct them and sort them out and there's a lot of dysfunction going on. They lack no spiritual gift in Corinth, he says, but yet they're quite dysfunctional in lots of their behaviours and practices.

John: 6:38

And then in the second letter I find David, 2 Corinthians, one of the most moving and tender and emotional letters of Paul because he's almost having to convince them that he has the right to speak into their world and it's almost like something's gone on between him and the church at Corinth. That that puts Paul. Paul sounds less self-assured in some senses in 2 Corinthians, but also there's this tenderness of an appeal where he's asking them to allow him almost to be the apostle and father that speaks into their world. So both letters are huge in wordage but they're also absolutely dense in conversation. So whatever happens in this first 18 months in the book of Acts is recorded for us, my goodness, it not only leaves a mark on Corinth, it leaves a mark on Paul, I think. And Paul is definitely impacted by this community and carries the burden of this community, it seems, wherever he goes.

David: 7:47

Yes, absolutely Absolutely, and I was thinking about like even it's worth, I would say to listeners do a little Googling of Corinth. I often say this to people that Google and Wikipedia might not be the best place to solve your theological questions, but it can be a fascinating resource in terms of just imagining what we're dealing with. Imagining what we're dealing with, because you've got this quite complex city that's going on around about you Like when I was reading, just refreshing my memory on some of this stuff. It's a new city and even by like, I'm in North America, you're in Europe, so anything less than half a millennia is a new city in Europe. But even by North American standards, corinth is a new city because, although it has long history, it's only been sort of reestablished by Julius Caesar about I mean, depending when you think Paul's visiting but Julius Caesar reestablished Corinth in 44 BC.

David: 8:46

So at very best, this country, this city, sorry is like a hundred years old. It's become the capital of the area and therefore part of a Roman province about 80 years maybe before Paul's there. And so as a result and I think this is significant for what we see in the letters and what we're going to see Paul encounter here you've got this huge immigrant population, because the people that settled Corinth were essentially ex-slaves from all across the Roman Empire. So you've got Greeks and Syrians and Jews and Egyptians, and you can see this when you look at some of the Corinthian architecture and archaeological work. You've got temples to Roman gods, temples to Greek gods, temples to the Caesar, temples to well, temples is maybe too strong a word, but you know statues and honorings to Egyptian gods are in there. So this hugely diverse, this massive marketplace in the middle of the city, which is where all of this is happening, I think you can kind of see why it's such an interesting and significant city for Paul to be in.

David: 9:57

And the other thing we know is this and I think this is really fascinating is that Paul's there, for we realized by the end of this reading he's there for a year and a half, which means the likelihood is that there was kind of biannual or biannual, I think, is the correct term games took place there. There was every year there was a sort of change of who ruled the city. So this year and a half that Paul's in Corinth is quite significant because he will have likely seen a full cycle of leadership change of people coming in to celebrate the gods through games and things like that. So I mean, I don't know that helps us necessarily with interpretation. What I hope it does is sort of gives us a little bit of a picture that Paul spends a year and a half in this diverse, cosmopolitan, complex space for a Jewish Jesus missionary to be in. Does that?

John: 10:50

make sense? It does totally. And of course, adding to that reflection, it's a port city. So you're going to get that natural cosmopolitan dynamic kicking in there and everything in a port city brings good, bad and ugly stuff sometimes. But of course it's a major capital to that little sort of provincial area of Achaia. So you've got this almost, this sort of almost looks like a little island mass that sits just sort of west of Athens. So if you look at the map, it's certainly a biblical map. Then you get this. It almost feels like it's okay. This is really significant. It's not only a young city, a cosmopolitan city, but it is a provincial capital for that particular area.

John: 11:38

And again, if you look at the map, paul is clearly also still sort of committed to this sort of coastal idea. So in that first missionary journey they've done a lot of inland work. And on his second let's use the language missionary journey we're already seeing some sort of coastal dynamic developing in the map and Corinth follows that pattern. Instead of Paul trying to go inland with the team and hit every little town or every little village or small city, he's targeting the big, influential cities. And of course, for ease of travel, if they're close to the coast even better. So although they bring particular challenges culturally, politically, religiously, financially they also offer at the same time, in the same ways, incredible opportunities for him.

John: 12:34

So Paul is stepping into a metropolis here. This is a seething mass of humanity. All sorts of stuff was going on Interesting world in which this new church is going to be planted, and the fact that Paul makes an off the back of a word from God, the fact that Paul makes an 18 month commitment we haven't seen, really, paul do this before at this length of time. So this is a major, major departure in terms of what seems to be his normal timeframe practice and he's absolutely committed to that whole thing. It is quite fascinating really.

David: 13:15

In one sense it's interesting as well that to your point, the port aspect of it also means that if Paul's successful in teaching the word of God there, it's being spread through the ports. So you wonder sometimes about Paul's missionary strategy. Athens is the sort of pinnacle place that you want to get to and then remain there as a philosopher. Corinth is a boomtown, so people are coming in, they're going out and it's not lost on me, and Luke clearly seems to think it's worth mentioning he works as a tent maker there. Again, if you think about it like we know that Corinth had these very narrow streets, generally sort of at most four meters wide, that were then covered. So there's a lot of kind of tenting work done, just creating the market, the street marketplaces. So what seems to happen from the archaeology is you've got this is like archaeology two texts today, john, eventually we'll get back to the text. But you've got these narrow streets with small buildings. On the ground floor would be the sort of workshop, and then at the back you would sort of go upstairs into a loft which is where you would store supplies and probably sleep. So I don't know if forgive me, listeners, if this is of no interest, but to me it helps me imagine. So Paul's there with Aquila and Priscilla. They're in a small street facing workshop and we don't know this from the text, but we know this from archaeology, that this is what workshop life was like in Corinth. Your shop is opening straight out onto the street. You're four meters at most, maybe only three meters from the opposite side of the street. You've got a tent covered, gallery kind of walkway, and then in the evenings we're imagining Paul going upstairs, probably sleeping in the leather or the furs that they've got, which is both storage space and sleeping space.

David: 15:14

And, like I love the idea of thinking about this is possibly a place where the church in Corinth starts to begin right. Imagine maybe some of these early communion services are happening in the workshop space. This could be why in Corinth Paul seems to worry about what will other people think if they see our meetings right, because maybe it's because they're just walking past in the street. Maybe this is why conversations around dress code at church starts to matter, because we're in a semi-public sort of space. But it's also an immigrant city. So the logic of taking up a tent making industry makes sense. Ships are coming in with canvas work needing done. Travelers are passing through. So there's also a possibility that there's practicalities for Paul, that here's a place where he can do gospel work and not be a burden, which is something we know. That Paul says at multiple places in his text. He references it in 1, 2 Thessalonians and in 1 Corinthians 4. He doesn't want to live in such a way that he's a burden to others, which is quite fascinating, isn't it?

John: 16:23

It is. It is, and I love I don't know if sort of we picked it up in the reading, but I love the little we picked it up in the reading but I love the little sort of nudge to that where it says that Paul hooked up with Priscilla and Aquila, tent makers together. So the implication is that as a tent maker, as they were, and he stayed and worked with them. And then a little bit later on, it says that when Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, paul then devoted himself exclusively to preaching. And, of course, if you know anything about the New Testament sort of story, you'll know that Silas and Timothy probably brought some resources back with them as well, and so it could be that the resources that Silas and Timothy have brought enables Paul then to go. Oh okay, I don't need to sort of spend so much time in the workshop making tents, but I love the matter-of-factness of this tent-making expression.

John: 17:26

Here's the great apostle. Well, he wouldn't have been seen as so great then, but we would certainly call him this great apostle. And yet he turns up at Corinth, takes a look at the situation, sees amazing opportunity to do two things. Number one make money. So this is a great opportunity to earn some money for the ministry, for themselves, to whatever the church plant looks like plant looks like. Also, he's connecting with two other believers, aquila and Priscilla, in this context and I absolutely totally agree with you.

John: 17:56

I think it's out of that initial working context that some of the greatest connections are being made in the city of Corinth.

John: 18:04

They're natural connections and Paul would not only be at the synagogue, which is, of course, we're told here that he goes and does what he normally does in terms of his pattern.

John: 18:13

But it is inconceivable that Paul, that Priscilla, aquila are not talking Jesus as they are making tents, as they are under those covered walkways and as they are engaging with people from around the world.

John: 18:29

And I love the fact that there seems to be in Paul the thinking not only are we going to impact Corinth but with this being a great port city, it could be that actually disciples of Jesus get back on those ships and then go wherever they're going. And certainly a little bit later on, when we eventually get to it next chapter we're into Ephesus and it's exactly the same dynamic a dynamic port city, a dynamic cosmopolitan place, and so there's something really exciting going on here and it's captured for us in the matter of factness of the language, paul just gets on with it and he just does what needs to be done in order to help the church get established there. And I just love that about Paul, that even though he's a brilliant scholar and an outstanding man, he's not above himself to just go okay, I'll get my tools out and we'll make some tents together and make a bit of money.

David: 19:32

I also. This is like a really tentative link and I was pondering this when I was reading the text. But we know that at least some of the reasons some people are here on Two Texts with us is just for our tentative links that we don't want to gamble the house on but we love seeing. But then I discovered Oregon spots this as well. But then I discovered Oregon spots this as well. So when the church fathers are kind of playing around with this, but it's not lost on me that he's a tent maker, the doer, the poeo, is the Greek of skeno and that's of course also the word for the tabernacle that we see used.

David: 20:07

But Oregon picks up on this notion of tent pitching that when God brings the Israelites out of captivity, that they become tent dwellers. So God's way of starting new community in Israel is in tents. And now we have the great apostle his tent making. Now please hear me well, listeners. I'm saying don't go preach this on Sunday morning, unless you're quoting Oregon, of course. But it's interesting that this sort of process of connection, and so what Oregon does in his sermon on this is that he makes the point that Paul echoes Israel by this kind of tent pitching. But ultimately what he's trying to do is make heavenly tents, because really what he wants to do is create spaces and churches that bring people into the dwelling place of God, which I thought is great preaching. I'm not sure if it's great exegesis, but it's great preaching.

John: 21:08

Well it is. And look, we sometimes use the expression I wouldn't build my house on this, but don't take it off the table sort of thing. It's still worth. There's something beautifully poetic at a theological level in this little reference tabernacle inside out. Who will have studied this, every nuance of the tabernacle? And it's interesting that when he's not teaching torah before he met jesus, he's.

John: 21:49

He's making tents and and there is something quite beautifully magnificent, it's beautifully poetic really, in a beautiful theological way, of all the trades that Saul could have had, making tents. It's pretty cool. In sort of the same way and again, I wouldn't want to overcook this, but we might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb here. So let's do this, but it's almost. There's a lovely little nuance linked to Jesus himself. But it's almost. There's a lovely little nuance linked to Jesus himself.

John: 22:26

Jesus himself, this lovely tecton, this carpenter, stonemason. Isn't it amazing that the creator of the universe has a day job where he's building stuff? Do you know that the creator who built a woman out of the man, the creator who built a woman out of the man, the creator who scooped up the mud and formed the man, is now cutting stones and shaping wood and building walls and building houses and amphitheaters for Romans and you sort of think that is so cool as an idea that you would think, well, Jesus J Job would have been a shepherd, but actually he's a tecton and there is a sort of a lovely Jesus-Paul connection here. Again, without overstretching that that you've got their everyday professions reflect something deeply poetically theological.

David: 23:18

So I mean, let's just keep stretching then, because if we go back to oregon sermon, he makes you know what funny is. These are the sort of things that we always like talk about and laugh at the beauty of them and then we say like don't build your house on this, don't go preaching this without. But then we actually also know this is exactly the stuff we want to preach because it's so beautiful, right? Oregon makes the point, actually totally thinking like you do so, and I actually think it's quite lovely.

David: 23:44

So Paul is is a tent maker until until he doesn't need to be a tent maker, and then he focuses exclusively on on the preaching, as you just observed rightly a little moment ago. So Oregon says he goes from making tents for earth to making heavenly tents in the building of the church. But then he draws the connection that he says but wait a minute, this is exactly what we saw in Jesus with Peter and Andrew. Because he says to them you're no longer fishers of people, you're no longer fishers of fish, you're now fishers of people. So Oregon tracks this kind of change of tech now your change of skill set when you come to Jesus. So we go from fishes of fish to fishes of people, tent makers for earthly tents, to tent makers for heavenly tents and, to be honest with you, like you say, I mean we're just playing a little bit with words, but my goodness, it's gorgeous. Not to mention, of course, we've talked about tents for far too long, to not forget that John talks to us about Jesus pitching his tent amongst us.

John: 24:51

So it's the ultimate tent, absolutely. And do you know what, david? The other thing that's worth a little reflect here and this would be this would literally impact millions of people across the earth potentially is that. Is it actually?

John: 25:06

In our modern era, me and you sit amongst some of the most privileged people in the world in that we get paid enough money by somebody else to do ministry full time, all right. Now, when I say full time, what I mean is, if you were putting that in a professional category, this is our job, right? Every Christian in that sense is full time. But me and you are representative of a group of people that have the incredible privilege of being paid to do Christian ministry, which is a staggering idea. My father worked in the shipyard and every night came home, got washed, got dressed, went out, did children's meetings, did Bible studies, visited the sick, and he financed all of his passion for Jesus and serving the church by working in the shipyard and stuff like that. So, and actually, paul shows us again something of the glory, the sanctity, the value of tent making, and we mustn't despise that, that there could be brothers and sisters listening to this podcast who have to tent make in order to do the ministry stuff they passionately want to do, and they would love to be like me and you and be paid full time to do this. But actually, tent making is a glorious and wonderful thing in the sense that it mustn't be devalued and it should be celebrated and actually for the vast majority of people in Christian ministry across the earth, this is their norm.

John: 26:43

They're bivocational, they're generally doing ministry that they're supporting by holding down other jobs school teachers or doctors, or holding down three part-time jobs in order to make it work.

John: 26:58

My oldest daughter, who's now in ministry in our local church as family pastor, children's pastor when she started in ministry as a 19-year-old had three part-time jobs because the church couldn't pay her or the church couldn't pay her very much.

John: 27:11

So there's a 19-year-old holding down three part-time jobs, tent making in order to be able to teach children because that's her call and her passion. So Paul is saying to and Priscilla and Aquila are also saying to us actually there are moments when we just have to do what we have to do in order to serve Jesus. But even when we're tent making, it is in no way devalued and it's no way less as valuable and important and dynamic and glorious as someone who happens to have the privilege to not have to tent make and just read the Bible and teach it and visit the sick, and I think it's worth a note into our modern context, where this is almost an entitled dynamic that we expect to be fully supported when we do something for Jesus and actually the New Testament world. That was an exceptional model rather than a normal model. Is that a fair point?

David: 28:13

I think that it's a really, really important point and because there's a couple of things, because there's a couple of things that come to mind as well about it how do you say it? There's another error that we get caught up in, I think, in what you're saying. So, number one yes, I fully affirm the privilege of my own life and that most Christians are just working can I say, a normal job, with all of the intended honor to that, maybe a proper job. They're working a normal job that looks very much like what everybody else in their street does. Here we have Paul working a normal job and using his spare time. I mean, and it's quite fascinating actually, it's every Sabbath he goes to the synagogue, so his rest time. You begin to get this subtle sense of Paul just sneaking into his rest space to actually do gospel work as well, which is quite controversial actually at some level for a Jewish man, and maybe this is the beginning of Christians suffering from burnout.

David: 29:20

I don't know when we start not paying attention to our rest time quite as much, but I think one of the problems that comes with the perception that people should be paid full time for Christian ministry. I mean, I appreciate it and value it. But it also starts to create this notion of sacred and secular work. And it creates this notion that that you and me have like sacred work and then everybody else just has has secular work, and, and I think that there's a beauty that we see I mean, think about the Genesis account the humans are put into the garden and asked just to take care of it, and there's in the creation of our work. There are so many works out there that are part of the caring for God's creation.

David: 30:12

Now, I think there is a bit of brokenness in the contemporary world that we invariably finance jobs all the wrong way around. But if you were to start to think about work as a form of worship and work as a form of doing and working out your own calling the nurse that serves people in an elderly person's home, the person that ensures your vegetables are available for you in the store when you go there, the farmer that's up earlier than everybody else in the cold, making sure the land is ready for when it's planting season, the idea that my work is better than that work, I think, is a really broken one. Right? It's I try to think about it that my work is privileged work, that I am set aside from needing to do some of those things so that I can focus on helping people in their journey with Jesus.

David: 31:14

But I think if I lose sight that that's a privilege, I think I'm in huge trouble. And if I lose sight that that job doesn't make me any less a worshiper, any more a worshiper of God, right, that doesn't mean that I'm working at my calling, but that person that's a farmer. They're just doing a regular job. I think that starts to become a very dangerous way to see the world. I don't know if you would. I think you would agree with me on that. John, totally agree with that.

John: 31:39

Totally and for me, I don't like the sort of sacred secular split and I don't see that really as a biblical idea that's played out strongly. So the closest you might get to it is the priesthood that got the privilege of taking care of the tabernacle and the tribe of Levi, but that was always seen to be saturated in the normal life of the nation and also not separate in a superior sense but simply separate in a responsibility sense. So I think we've got to watch over that and I think these lovely little extra bits in the text that luke didn't need to tell us about. Luke could have just said paul rocked up the core and met priscilla and aquila. Oh and by the way, boom, here's the church and there we are. But actually he drops these bits of information and because they are important to us and they do remind us that that actually the vast majority of the Christian world, in terms of volunteer ministry or ministry itself, is funded by people making tents, is funded by people doing their everyday work and then, out of the generosity of that everyday work, blessing the work of the church or blessing the work of their local community or blessing the work of professional ministries or missionaries or teachers or whatever those labels are. But actually you know, as a local pastor, David, there were two things that always deeply moved me, always humbled me and still do, still do profoundly. One was when, when people gave of their time, and people gave of their financial or material resource, because I'd see people step up to say helping the poor and and give an offering and, and I know how long it takes to save that money. So when people are giving of their resource that they've earned to help the poor, to help build the church, to literally help the fabric of the church or help support ministries in the church, my goodness, that's profoundly humbling. That's something you go, that's not entitlement, that should make us go. My goodness, here's a woman working two jobs and raising her three kids and she's still contributing financially into this community so that I can do my work. Wow, and I think it's remembering.

John: 34:15

Here's the great apostle making tents. And if me and you got in a time machine and rocked back to Corinth, the unimpressive looking man sitting under the canopy sewing some skins yeah, it's true, this man will end up writing 12 books of the New Testament. Right, and there he is sitting, working over a table in the heat, toasting, surrounded by all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff good, bad and ugly all going on around him. And he's an expert in Tanakh and a follower of Jesus. And he's met the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus. And there he is. Look at him, he's sitting at the table sewing some skins together. And you go come on.

John: 35:04

There's something very powerful in that little sentence that we must not forget. And if people like me and you do have and you're right, it is an amazing privilege If we do have the privilege of earning enough money to actually do what we do full time, then that places us in a place of immense responsibility and joy and also, hopefully, one of humility and gratitude for what we've been given and the privilege we've been given.

David: 35:42

So that's it for this episode. We know that there's always more to explore and we encourage you to dive into the text and do that. If you liked this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you rated, reviewed or shared it. We also appreciate all of our listeners who financially support the show, sharing the weight of producing this podcast. If you listeners who financially support the show, sharing the weight of producing this podcast, If you'd like to support the show, visit twotextscom. But that is all for now. So until next time from John and I, goodbye.