Small is the New Big | Parables 9

In which John and David look at Matthew's version of the parable of the Lost Sheep. Jesus takes a parable we know and drops it into a new context about the greatest and the least. What if the economics of the kingdom of God don't think best, bigger and great aren't as important as we think?

• Click Here to read the text from Matthew 18: 1-14
• Click Here to see a book that David likes on the subject of "honour and shame" in Matthew's Gospel by J. Neyrey

Episode 9 of the Two Texts Podcast | Parables of Jesus Series 9

If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?

Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Transcript

David Harvey  0:01  
Hi there. I'm David Harvey. I'm here with John Andrews. And this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries here every two weeks talking about different texts from the fight. This, however, is our launch season. And so we're bringing you a daily episode of the two of us talking about the parables of Jesus. This is episode nine, and it's called Small is the new big . 

Okay, john, in our last episode, likely in the last two episodes, we talked about these Luke 15 parables of lost things, lost sheep, a lost coin, and then two lost sons, which was, which was really fun to talk about. But what's interesting, however, is we see in Jesus teaching ministry that, that it appears that he utilize these stories elsewhere. Sometimes this idea that, Oh, well, he only ever told the story once and I think on an itinerant preaching ministry as Jesus, the rabbi was, these likely these stories appeared in different contexts and, and we do get a little window into that with the story of the lost sheep. If we turn our Bibles or open our Bible apps over to Matthew chapter 18. We get the same story for almost the same story again, in Matthew chapter 18, verse 12, Jesus simply says this, what do you think? If a shepherd has 100 sheep, and one of them has gone astray? Does he not leave the 99 on the mountains and go in search of that one that went astray? And if he finds it, Truly I tell you, he rejoices over it and more than over the 99 that never went away. So it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should be lost. So So Jesus tells this parable, we know the parable has a slightly different ending them when we encountered it in Luke chapter 15, but essentially appears to be the same parable. So Jesus, this gives all preachers a little bit of a rest to say, oh, maybe this is Jesus showing me It's okay to reuse the sermon illustration. And, and maybe I can, you know, so so go easy on your pastor when he preaches the same sermon twice in a different context. That's probably the least, and most tenuous connection of this parable to anything we've ever done. But for me, Johnny's interest, a couple of things I almost want to ask us about right to start. One is that that sense of Jesus reusing a piece of story. And because what's interesting, which we'll explore today is that when he reuses, the story, the context is very different in Matthew chapter 18, before we get to that story, and after we get to that story, it's very different than what we saw in in Luke 15. So it would be really easy to just take this parable, and it's gonna go, I know this parable, this is the same one from Luke. But how is Jesus using it? Is he making the same point this time? And I think we'll discover he's saying something slightly different in there. And then the other thing is, then, is to talk a little bit about the rabbi then and their method of communication that might, might help us. So where do you want to kick us off?

John Andrews   3:24  
Yeah, I mean, I think you're, I think you're banging on the button in terms of that. Reading that parable, there's a beautiful miliar already about? Well, I've heard this before. That sheep thing. Yeah, I've got this on one of the dangers in is then we are automatically thinking we know what the conclusion is. And again, for our listeners, if they've been hooking in with us, we've been appealing constantly for a couple of things. One big thing is never just pluck these parables out of their context. It's really important. Sometimes they do seem to stand alone. But often they are part of a trajectory of thinking. The rabbi as, as it were, is pulling threads together and taking his audience on that journey. And, and so when you grab this parable that looks and sounds virtually the same as Luke 15. The danger is you go, Oh, well, that's just that thing about loss people, right? And then we we miss how Jesus specifically uses that sort of context against crucially important, and again, I think it does show that Jesus is comfortable adapting his material to the context that he's speaking into, and we've seen this so much. And you know, a great example of this is what we might refer to as the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew five, six and seven, my goodness what a sermon and then the Sermon on the plane, which is your Luke chapter six, so On the surface of it, there's lots of similarities. And, of course, sometimes what people have done the fall into the trap of thinking it's the CM sermon, and then they can't understand why there's huge differences in the sermon. Yeah.

David Harvey  5:12  
Luke thought he was in the flats. And Matthew thought he was in a mountain. Yeah,

John Andrews   5:15  
exactly. I'd also like, Jesus leans into this really strong, rabbinic sense in Matthew, which you would expect, because Matthew is writing as a, a Jewish person to a Jewish audience. And he's absolutely working so hard to show the Jewishness of Jesus as the Messiah. So you know, and in that beautiful Sermon on the Mount, six times Jesus says, You have heard it said, But I say to you, I mean, this is, this is sort of classic teacher language. In his world, he's saying, there's a, there's a few on this text, there's an interpretation on this text or oral tradition around this text. Let me give you my view of this text and an easy, really common, rabbinic way of doing things. Absolutely, totally. So the audience, the Jewish audience of Matthew Five, six, and seven would totally get that idea. In the Luke in context, it's the similar material, but presented in a very interesting way. And where Jesus is positioning the kingdom, perhaps in a way that allows a wider audience to engage with it. And also, Luke clearly grabs that which seems to be more accessible to a non Jewish audience. It's easier to get into that, because of that. So the idea of Jesus using material in different same material in different places is an absolute, it's not just unique to Jesus, it's totally normal.

David Harvey  6:46  
And you got to think that if we if he didn't do that, that doesn't mean we've lost a lot of Jesus, his species, although I suppose john, at the end of his gospel does imply that Jesus said a lot more. But you know, with a more than likely three year long itinerant Ministry of preaching, you got to believe he didn't do the last sheep the last Sunday and then go, Well, that's that one done. I'm never doing that again. So I think about in modern times, you know, how often do people go to hear a comedian, for example, you know, that they actually go to hear them, because they know the type of stories this person is going to tell, and you're gonna hear your favorite band actually play the song that you already know. So I don't think it's a stretch to say that people would even go to hear Jesus, because they want to hear they've heard rumors of his controversial stories they've heard about his healing ministry that, I think it's, it's not actually when we give it the time and space. It's not a hugely controversial suggestion that Jesus tells these stories, preaches these sermons more than once.

John Andrews   7:54  
Absolutely, I think culturally, for the world of Jesus, this would have been totally expected. I think we're, you know, if we were to modernize this to our world today, modern communicators, preachers, teachers, etc, are probably under more pressure because we're more exposed. So you know, and therefore, we feel like every time we go to a different church, we've got to come up with something absolutely different, unique and fresh, especially if you're like me in a more trans local context. But yet, there have been moments where I have felt a strength around an idea the Lord wants to communicate to the church, and I'm going, Well, this isn't just for one church. I think this is for a range of churches. I think this is for a season of time. I think this fits with the context, we're in the urgency of the moment. And so I wouldn't necessarily communicate a sermon exactly the same way, in multiple contexts was there's always new ones and change and contextual relevance. But the fact that there's something passionate on you, that you feel is really important, for a moment, the season a time or important to your fundamental ideas about God, and the kingdom of God. And, of course, Jesus has some very, very strong, profound, challenging and controversial ideas. And, you know, no good communicator expects his audience or her audience to get that first time. I mean, even Jewish culture and its education system is profoundly repetitive memorization, repeat, repeat, you know, liturgy, cyclical literature, the idea that you will go over and over the CMA ideas over and over again until they are ingrained into your personhood. Jesus is educated in that system. Geez. So Jesus memorize the text. That's how Jesus learns these stories because they're repeated to him over and over and over again. And therefore when he when he develops his originality of material. He's using the CM k have skills, I think that his culture would both appreciate and understand remembering, there's no books to go to, there's no apps to download what Jesus is dropping out to this crowd, they've got to remember, they've got to be able to remember this stuff. So if the stories are too complicated, too long, require, you know, brain power above people's pay grades, then he's going to miss the ability to communicate the kingdom. So he's got to make these things relatively accessible, so that the average person can engage. But also he, as we've looked at already, he has seeds, glorious hiddenness within his stories, that if you're prepared to find the treasure, then there's stuff to be, there's stuff to be grabbed, that doesn't seem apparent on the surface.

David Harvey  10:49  
And so you're actually representing Jesus to us then as an educator. So gcuc, Jesus was educated these ways. But essentially, what we're seeing is Jesus was an educator. And that phrase might sound similar strange to people, because all of a sudden, you know, they're in their car, and they've got Jesus as their high school history, teacher, flashbacks. And that might not be a pleasant analysis. But But we see Jesus constantly referred to as Rabbi, which essentially, in that context, one of the key roles of the rabbi was the education that was that was teaching it was, and we think, Well, yeah, but they were just teaching scripture. But that was the education system of Israel at that particular point in history, wasn't it? So, so we're talking about Jesus, the rabbi as Jesus, the teacher, as Jesus, the educator. So the idea that he's using his culture and context educational philosophy, educational method is actually is kind of neat, from a point of view of even just thinking about Jesus as, as man I knew the Incarnation is probably too big of a subject for us to try and get into in this podcast. But, but although we believe that Jesus is God, and also fully man, it that kind of humanity of Jesus starts to come alive when we see him using his culture and context methods and, and methodologies. So so what we're seeing then, and I think this is important to note, when you're engaging with Jesus is, is what did how did rabbis teach? And they didn't teach in exactly the same way as we would teach in the contemporary world, right. So we would, although this is increasingly becoming challenged correctly, in my opinion, but classically, in the western context, we would see, the expert comes in, they talk for a long period of time, at the end, once they have downloaded all of their brilliant knowledge to you, you may have moments for questions. But we've or you may have both been at lectures where the final line is, oh, well, look, I've talked too long. And we're out of time. So no time for questions today. And and we leave thinking, Well, that was a good lecture. In Jesus's educational context, people have said, What was that? He just talked endlessly for an hour and then went home. So if you see and if you look at the New Testament, you see this constantly. If you do reading about the context outside of it, you'll find it even more enhanced. The rabbinic method was, was quite eccentric almost wasn't it to us, we look back, you would you would pose questions to your students, you would take them on trips, you would point at stuff inside, make an object lesson out of what you were seeing, you would ask them questions, and sometimes you would ask them questions, not for them to get the answer, but to see what questions they would then pose back to you like Jesus had this ability. And rabbis did this all the time, to say what I'm really not interested is whether you know the answer to me, but what are the connections that you make as a result of it? So your answers are not irrelevant? Of course, you know the answer to this, but what are you going to ask back? So rabbis would would sometimes, quote half a scripture verse a, Jesus doesn't want you know, when he says, he's discussing something in the poor, you will always have amongst you. I know, some people have read that passage and realized, Oh, Jesus is just basically saying, well, there's always going to be poor people, but Jesus is actually only quoting half of a verse and terrorize me. And if you're a sharp student, you remember that the other half of the verse is to live with an open hand. And we as modern readers can come in to in depth to this rabbinic method, and come to the completely wrong conclusion as to what Jesus is actually saying, because we've assumed that he was just giving the lecture, not engaging his students in a sort of backwards and forwards. And I think in this passage here, what we're going to do then is try and string together all those things, the context, so so don't just take this one parable and say, Oh, I know what this probably means. Let me move on. But actually, it's strung together on a longer interaction of Jesus is Jesus is a rabbi. So when we string this together, we're going to have to look out for little clips, test connections, thought processes that will push us to think of Whoa, why does Jesus tell the parable of the lost sheep here? And how white? might we apply that? Absolutely. So yeah, so it's kind of exciting. And for me, john, whenever I've read about Jesus as a rabbi, it just makes me more and more excited to learn from him. Because I realized he was willing to take on the controversial he was willing to shock us sometimes to kind of almost wake us up out of our sleep, like really good. You know, rhetoric does that sometimes, doesn't it? You Oh, my goodness. And you remember the story. Because what we've Jesus's first sermon and Luke, you know, he just reads a bit of the Bible makes a couple of commentary, comments, comments on it, and people try and throw him off a cliff. So he had the ability to really get to the quick of the issue, didn't he?

John Andrews   15:43  
Yeah, totally. I think one of the challenges that comes to me as a learner, as well as hopefully, some level of ability to be able to teach people is, you know, I want to try and not just hear the words of Jesus, but get into the world of Jesus. So you're trying to understand the, maybe a cultural context, or a new ones within the text atone nation within the text that isn't always obvious, but maybe there are clues in the surrounding bits and, and slowing Jesus down, I think we assume far too much about the words of Jesus. And and because of that, I think we are and I see we, you know, the church itself has been guilty, perhaps of misunderstanding, or misrepresenting misinterpreting some of the words of Jesus and getting them really quite, radically wrong. And so slowing right down, and recognizing, if you're reading, like the passage we're reading and something seems to jar something seems to slip out of gear, what's going on there, don't just read past it, or don't just don't just ignore it. Something's going on. It's calling us into the text. And I think Matthew 18 is a classic example of a trajectory that Jesus seems to be creating. And then there's like a couple of jarring moments within that you're, well, what's that about, and maybe something else is going on in that text, which is both quite amazing, but a little bit disturbing. And sort of rattles us a little bit, I

David Harvey  17:24  
love the idea of tunes. So, so let's jump into the text with that in mind, it's it's lyrics. And to this little story about during the American Revolutionary War against the British, a song was written and if you read the lyrics of the song, it's just a classic sort of, you know, revolutionary, you know, encourage the troops to keep believing in what they were standing for. And it's not overly interesting. What's actually interesting about the song is that they set it to the tune of the British National Anthem. So So actually, if you don't hear the tune, you actually missed the power of what they were doing by choosing very much this song to see something else. So I love that idea of music and lyrics that it's not just what Jesus physically says in this one verse, But watch the tune of Jesus life of Jesus as a person. And truth. Jesus is saying something that seems out of synch with him as a person, we need to do some acts of Jesus, which would be the technical word, not just of the words, but of the context and the character of Jesus, because maybe, maybe he's pushing us a little bit.

John Andrews   18:31  
Standing point, David, I think I think that's worth emphasis. And I think the point you've made is absolutely, profoundly important and outstanding, that it, it's not just reading the words, it's reading the life of Jesus, if if Jesus is on the surface of it, saying something that seems to contradict the deposit of his life, the positioning of his worldview, then then we're not hearing that properly, or we're in danger of reading something in to the text instead of drawing something out of it. And I think if, if our listeners can remember one thing, one thing for this podcast, what you've just dropped out is gold. And don't just read the words read the life, it's like Paul as well. I think it's like all major contributors to the text. It's trying to understand something of, of the motivation of the person, as well as the actual words that appear on a letter or are recorded for us and and if you get that, whoo, I think there's there's gold in them there hills, you know, there's, there's stuff that we can find. So great point, David. Great point.

David Harvey  19:50  
So there's a last sheet, and so let's hit rewind, and we're gonna go right the way back up to the start of chapter 18. And we're gonna ask how do We get to a lost sheep. And we get there because the disciples come to Jesus and say, who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Everything we've just said, Everything we just said proves our point that you can even track around with Jesus and watch this incredible Ministry of service of care of the last shall be first, you can listen to the whole sermon in the mind. And you can sit one day and think to yourself, you know what, I'm gonna ask Jesus, I'm gonna ask Jesus, which of us is the best?

John Andrews   20:32  
Absolutely, it's it's a staggering out, of course, it is. It does set the tone for everything we're about to get so, so so that Jesus in response to that he, you know, brings this child into the midst of this thing, and says to them, you know, unless you're prepared to change, so that I think that's the key there unless you're prepared to change, turn about turn around your ideas, on on, as it were, become like little children, you will never enter. And of course, he he's, he's challenging this sort of drive for greatness and influence on DC saying, literally, you've got it, you've got to flip that over. It goes on to say in verse four, therefore, whoever humbles himself, like this child is the greatest. So introducing the paradox of the kingdom, that in the world in which they live, greatness is achieved by striving, by dominating, by competition, by abusing by manipulating or by Muslim

David Harvey  21:43  
is interesting to note as well, in this john, that Jesus lives in a world, you know, the language would be, you know, academics we talk about is the language of honor and shame. So Jesus lived in what we call an honor culture, many of those cultures still exist in the world today, the Western world seems to think we don't. But what's just a really significant point as to how controversial This is that in a culture that values honor, you never Humble yourself. So people are only humbled hump hum, humbleness, humility, that's the word.

John Andrews   22:16  
humility.

David Harvey  22:17  
It's a good job, we script this right. Humility is always enforced in an honor and shame culture, it is something that's put on you. And so there's we sometimes in the modern context, and particularly in Christendom, we actually miss how Jesus just turns around and says, voluntarily become humble. It's so upside down from what people are used to hearing. It's, it's it's power. Yeah, it really is powerful. And it shaped Of course, in Philippians, two, we see Jesus does it to himself, right. But if you're there as a first century listener, he said, What just now, he said that I should humble myself, I'm not going to be. So instead of being put in my place, I'm going to take a lower place. You know, Jesus says, But what happens when you go to a meal, don't sit at the top, sit at the bottom, voluntary humility is controversial in Jesus's context, and, of course, actually, maybe controversial in ours as well, actually.

John Andrews   23:11  
Yeah, totally agree. And, and of course, the fact that we've got a visual aid right in front of them. So it's not just Jesus sort of being intellectual with them. It's okay, here's a child like this, if you're not sure what I mean by humble, it's like this. I then of course, he he drives that even harder. In verse five, he moves from sort of saying, take the attitude of the child adverse for to welcoming one such child in my name, if you do that you sort of welcome me in in verse five. And then verse six, he seems to ratchet the the sort of pressure on this whole thing.

David Harvey  23:57  
But he's right up, isn't it because

John Andrews   23:58  
it really goes like off the Richter scale. So if anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea water the world because of the things that cause people to stumble such things most common, but water the person through whom they come, and there's really quite a dynamic play on on the idea of stumbling here, scandal on you know, you've got it, whoever then shall cause one of these that wants to stumble would be a great translation. scandal is actually is literally the idea and then as we move into verse seven, and some modern translations, really sort of, I think, play this stone a little bit, but in in the context of the original Greek the idea then of all stumbling is repeated three times wall to the world because of the stumbling that they bring. Some translations have the causes of sin or cause to sin. But but the word there's scandal alone. And then later on it goes on to say, you know these things in our world sort of calm necessarily these scandella these stumblings calm but again another repeat of the world war two the man by whom the scandal on comms. So you get this, you get sort of this this gentle, gentle, gentle beginning, who's the greatest will actually voice your thinking completely wrong. Humble yourself like a child, and you'll be the greatest in the kingdom. And then he goes on, by the way, are welcome, but one like this into your midst. And when you do that you're welcome me Oh, and by the way, if you cause one of these little ones to stumble, it would be like, really bad woe to you. That millstone around your neck. And I mean, not me just quite, is really quite drastic and quite frightening, really, from that context. So so suddenly, we've gone from humility to, to this idea of make sure whatever you do, you don't cause any of these little ones to stumble. And of course, that's that's creating a trajectory for what do you

David Harvey  26:31  
think the connection here is, generally speaking, when we read this passage, so we go, let's go back. And we'll repeat this many, many times over this podcast context. So this passage often gets quoted again, on its own as a standalone. Right? So you know, if you put this on and when it's quoted on its own, it entirely relates towards children, right, like physical children. And of course, and I don't want it at some level, I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that works at one level that this is a text about don't cause stumped, don't scandalize children, and there's a lot can be said about that. But that link peace between verses four and five, almost suggests a kind of metaphorical reading of children that's going on in this as well. So So whoever becomes humble like this child, so the child is now introduced as a model of the kingdom life. So whoever welcomes ones one such child is Jesus when he says one such child saying a child, or is he saying it Kingdom modeling person? Right? So, so so so if you listen to the flow of the parable, how do I become the greatest in the kingdom, I become like a child. And therefore when I've become like a child, if anybody welcomes that attitude, that behavior, that life, that kingdom, humility, life, they're essentially welcoming Jesus. So if you push that metaphorical reading, Jesus, then now is potentially talking to us about all Christian, potentially all Christians who are trying to live out the kingdom, be careful of doing something that scandalizes someone in your humility. I mean, do you think there's a two level way to read that, because I feel quite comfortable with that reading of the first level of there's actually Jesus saying, you know, God cares about children. But a second level, he also cares about people who are in their humility, living out the kingdom, because almost there's a sense if you do try and live out this kingdom lifestyle of humility, and Jesus following, you will be easy to abuse, you'll be easy to take advantage of the world will try and take advantage of that. So you get these wars towards the people who will miss what's going on here. Yeah, I mean, do you think I'm stretching it to find that second level? No,

John Andrews   28:42  
I I certainly wouldn't push back on that at all. I I know, you know, as we move into verse six, where he says, you know, whoever causes one of these little ones micron, which, which doesn't just been small, but but could be in contrast to the idea of great that's been introduced, and big, influential, obvious, standout. And of course, remember in the combine

David Harvey  29:10  
is also john Sorry, it's a hole in the Greek again, I realize it's always when we say all what's in the Greek, but it's a Greek phrase, actually, these little ones who believe it's almost I think, if you're writing this in English, you'd almost put quotation marks. It's almost like the title little ones who believe. So as in believers, small believers, yes. So I feel like there's a spiritual dynamic going on here.

John Andrews   29:32  
I I totally agree with that. And I think there are Jesus uses this sort of language and other parts of the gospel. And it's clear is not just referring to little ones, in the sense of child, little ones, but this idea of this juxtaposition of the kingdom of heaven. And again, to remind our, our readers which which we're always trying to have, you know, for ourselves, it's remembering that Rome is dominating the world. And everything about Rome is great is big, is influential, it's strong, its power. It's, you know, stamping down on anything that looks small or weak. And again, it leans into our, our previous conversation about the kingdom being small in its beginning, but it becomes influential. So again, I think that the language of little ones who believe or, or the idea of a child, I think it does have that double layer, David, I wouldn't have any problem with that within that

David Harvey  30:36  
content. So then you've got this warning, because he then ratchets the warnings up a little bit more. So you get this, this repetition of this scandal language. So verse six, don't put a scandal before these, these young believers, let's even phrase it that way, actually, because it'd be better off if you just dumped yourself in this, see if that happened, in fact, and water the world because it's always putting scandals out there. And occasions for scandal for scandal are bound to come. But water, the one who it comes through, and then again, you get verse eight, the ratchet comes up even higher. Now. In fact, if your hand or foot causes you, too, cause to scandal, so I'm just trying to keep that Greek word connected, like you say, if your hand or foot causes you to scandal, cut it off and throw it away. It's better to have life maimed than two hands and feet, and, and be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to scandal, tear it out and throw it away for it's better to enter life with one eye than if two hot eyes and be thrown into the hell of filing out. Like that got dark, really quickly. He said, is the child still standing in their midst? Is Jesus because He might have a few nightmares?

John Andrews   31:46  
Absolutely. But doesn't that really helped with understanding that passage how many times I've heard that passage, you know, if you're if and you go to that, if you're hard to be called, to be absolutely personalized, and it's almost been applied to me in terms of my sin, my personal sin, you know, if I'm, forgive me listeners, but you know, if I'm looking at porn, Buck, you're a better not, you know, better to be blind and sort of go to hell, or if I'm doing something wrong or mythic. But actually, in this context, of course, the the goji note of the eye, the cutting off of the hand, is not to do with my personal sins and stuff I'm doing when nobody's looking, it's to do with the way I am treating these little ones who believe it's to do with community. And again, it's forcing the agenda, away from the eye again, and back to the way, which is another constant theme of Jesus of, of the celebration of the way within the context of the kingdom of God. The the massive personalization that we have applied to the kingdom of God and a Western culture would have been almost unrecognizable to a first century world, they wouldn't have interpreted the kingdom of God as being something for me, it would have been something for us. And my actions are understood within the awesomeness of that kingdom, the way of that kingdom, it's i is always moving to we in the context of the biblical passage. And if you read that trajectory of of scandal, then then it takes the emphasis away from John Andrews, his personal sins, when nobody's looking to John Andrews is treatment of these little ones who believe and it's totally then a different type of challenge.

David Harvey  33:30  
By Geez, if this was a text, I would say, if somebody highlight just what john said, just they are just literally put a little marker point in that, because remembering that gonna come really important as you continue to push your way, the other side of the parable of the lost sheep, because, again, let's just keep repeating the point. If Jesus was saying, and we're saying he's not saying this, but if he was saying, oh, by the way, if you do something wrong, chop that bit of your body off, right? That would be completely out of line with his language of forgiveness. But, but somehow that that's when we read the verse out of pass out of context, that's kind of what we hear quite regularly is this idea that it's, well, this is just this is how bad it is. If you sin, if you do something wrong, you know, you you use an example of porn or, you know, lying, or whatever it is, it's always like, well, that needs to be dealt with. And we forget about Jesus's language of forgiveness and read the passage or sort of clunkily but if we follow that stream of this is about scandal causing, this is about what do you do with people who are perhaps young and faith, people or people who are who are meek, Christ, the Greek word who are little in the world's eyes, because they're humble? You know, bear in mind, we've got Jesus hanging on a cross soon, looking decidedly like, little in contrast with the Roman Empire, big Roman Empire crucifies little Jesus, who's who's the winner, who's the loser? You know? And then I love that line in First Corinthians one where Paul just said, but the Empire didn't know what It was doing. But but that's there's that sense of last first, you know, greatest smallest, these ideas are all turning around Jesus just here. So now you get this for me it's a big warning sign, hey, this is how the kingdom works.

John Andrews   35:16  
It's it's least you know it's last its smallest. So be very careful that you don't try and break that. So so. So there's a little bit of a, you know, when you hear yourself as a Christian begin to talk in the language of biggest, best and strongest. There should be a light warning lights all over your dashboard that well you've taken a wrong turn somewhere, because because that's not how Christians taught. Absolutely. Isn't it powerful David that, that we've picked up themes and threads already in the parables that Jesus is weaving in the different ideas, different moments in different imagery? So so we pick up here in this what seems like an innocuous beginning whose degree it is, and in Jesus weaves the end of the answer all the themes we've already picked up on and some of the parables, what the kingdom is like the contrast agreed on small or influential, and you know, in conspicuous, that it's all coming in here again. And remember, if you're one of these young disciples, you're you're picking those repeat ideas is all about this, again, he's talking about. But of course, now the application is coming to these disciples really dynamically to them as a group, it's not just, oh, here's what the kingdoms like. It's like a little seed and the growth. No, Jesus is absolutely applied. Here's what the kingdom looks like right now to you as a group, here's how we have to respond to what's going on.

David Harvey  36:49  
So when you see a big massive building, as opposed to, or actually, let's use another Jesus example, when you see a big massive mountain, right, or you see huge, massive stones in the temple, and you could be mistaken to go, oh, wow, look at that kingdom. And Jesus says, that's not Kingdom at all, when you start to hear that sort of language. The warning signs are. What a theologian I enjoy engaging with from time to time, is the American theologian Stanley hauerwas. And there's this somehow, I'm not sure how but a few quite a few years ago, now, Time magazine went to see Stanley Horowitz because they had decided for reasons unbeknown to me, they had decided to award him the category of America's best theologian. Now just remember all the things we've just talked about, they came to his office, and they said to him, so So how do you respond to the idea that, that you are America's best theologian and how advice to his just brilliant says to them, best is not a theological category. Come on, which and I think he's echoing this sort of stuff here. That's not what Jesus has called us to. He's called this the least. And so I often I think of it that best is not a theological category, because if you're pursuing best, you might trample the little ones. You know, when you when you decide you're going to build the big building, you might build it on a field of seeds. It's, which is the end is verse 10. Now chapter 18. We're just working our way through this beautifully. What leads Jesus into the shepherd and the sheep, take care that you do not despise one of these little ones beautiful fur, I tell you, in heaven, their angels continually see the face of My Father in heaven like scarjo the weight of God is the least the way to God is the humble the weight of the kingdom is is is small. And that is Jesus his link phrase in there. Okay. I feel like I'm imagining I'm trying to put myself join into Jesus the teacher here. Okay, that's pretty heavy. I think we need a story. Let me let me just throw in a story here. a shepherd has 100 sheep. I don't think you're getting this. I don't think you're believing me. So a shepherd has 100 sheep and leaves one. He's got 99 he's lost one. That seems okay. 99 biggest one least what is the shepherd do? He goes after the least? Which is brilliant. Because I mean, it bears repeating. No, he does. In real cultural life. The shepherd never does this. But this is a kingdom shepherd.

John Andrews   39:26  
Yeah, I love David the link. There's a beautiful statement, you know, as as Jesus is, is leading up to this, this this lovely idea. We're right at the end. Verse 14, he says, In the same way, your Father in Heaven is not willing that any of these should perish. I love the way that links to sort of the idea of Jesus searching for the lostness of those a son of man has come to sequency of that which was Last night, he is not willing for any of them to be destroyed. And I love that. And, again, that's, that's, I think it's a, it's just a sense of the heart of God, the sense of the kingdom of God. And it's within this particular context of greatness and smallness, that don't despise the small things, to the extent that you will know them to be destroyed. Because the father will pursue the small thing in order to not allow it to be destroyed. And it's just cut your losses. It's one out of 100 move on. Most most shepherds would settle for, you know, a 1% loss in a year. And the father says, No, no, no, I don't want to settle for that percentage loss I'm going to pursue so that none is destroyed.

David Harvey  40:52  
So NASA is the Greek word isn't it? Apollo's? Yeah. Verse 14, the Greek word appaloosas. Is there isn't it? It's an order that none would be destroyed, destroyed, you know, so he just cranks it up. And I think our English translators always use the word loss for the nice English balance of it being the lost sheep,

John Andrews   41:12  
but uh, but of course, destroyed really plays back to scandal on doesn't it? Absolutely. If you're looking at if you're looking at the aggressiveness of the language around this, that, that Jesus is saying, you know, Walter, the person who scanned the lasers and and, and rather pluck your eye out, then allow it to scandalize you cut your hand off and loaded and learn to lead others to stumbling. And then almost in opposition to that the father won't let anything be destroyed by that scandalizing. And if you connect all those words, together, I think you've got something really, really powerful.

David Harvey  41:50  
And, and it's always worth pointing out the economy of God in this, what happens when you're willing to let the one goal? Well, then you might let to go. And then you might let three goal. And eventually what might happen is you end up in a situation where you've let 99 go. And then what you do as the one who's left behind you say yeah, but I'm the right one, and look what I'm doing because I'm doing the best. And I'm and we've seen this in church life across the years that we even start to defend it theologically. And I don't want to take the podcast into into controversial grounds at this stage. But it's just worth noting that you do see an insight into the heart of God as to what God wants for the world here. He doesn't want any lost. So if your theological position is that God's okay with lost things, then you need to read the parables again, because God is not okay. And I hear sometimes theological positions that say, Oh, no, God, just God just wants to choose a few Gods only interested in having a few. And this parable becomes very difficult to read. Because it seems that God, not only is he wanted everyone, he he's encouraging Jesus is railing against those who might accept smaller numbers, who might accept less than, than, than everybody being found. It's it's quite, it's shockingly controversial. Actually.

John Andrews   43:11  
It is, doesn't it play also David to something we've touched on before it plays to the image of God. So, so you know, the image of God is in these little ones, the image of God is in the least. So, if the image of God is invested in the hannie, human, whether they be little, literally in terms of age, or you know, size, or they are little in terms of social strata and influence, that is irrelevant to us, because we are invested into seeking to redeem the image of God in lost humans in broken humans, and therefore, we have no right to categorize people at any level, at any level that says, Well, that's great, that small, because the Bible worldview constantly challenges our understanding of what is great, and what is small, and the value system that is placed onto that, you know, my my, my mother recently passed away and towards the end of her time on planet Earth, you know, she became Wait, no, she was a strong, independent, amazingly generous woman worked hard all of her life. But of course, she she gets she gets ill family gathering round or helping supporting her and suddenly all the things she can't normally do, David, you know, she can't she normally strong she's normally there. She's normally search. She can't normally do it. She can't do all of that stuff. Now, as she know, because of her smallness. Is she no less valuable? Right? Is she less valuable as my mother because She can't get up. But she has value as my mother because you She can't take me out for dinner, if she less valuable because her mind isn't as sharp as maybe it wasn't her strength is this great? No, we, we fundamentally believe that, that her value is intrinsic with her connection with the image of God and therefore little or great in the eyes of society is of no consequence to us, where we find ourselves driven by a worldview that starts to label people in categories of great and little, economically, politically, culturally, gender, color, whatever label We are, we are, we are in so much trouble, that it's not, it's not funny. And I think that's why Jesus is language here is so, so controversially strong. I mean, it's, it's off the scale strong, and he's not speaking to a bunch of unbelievers. He's speaking to his core group, he's speaking to his, to his gathered audience. And he's saying to them, Listen, you do not get involved in this, do not allow yourself to be one who propagates the great over little idea, or you will end up missing the kingdom of God. And you'll end up getting on the wrong side of God on this argument.

David Harvey  46:16  
And it's interesting that we often focus when I've heard this passage and engaged with in church context, we focus on the gouging out of the eye and the cutting off of hands. And of course, Jesus isn't encouraged encouraging self harm here. But what we miss in that side is that Jesus is throwing down the gauntlet is that that actually, if you do become one who scandalizes the small, who you know, who forgets the kingdom way, you are eradicating yourself from the kingdom, you're, you're putting yourself out, which isn't it fascinating that so often within the kind of Western church rhetoric, we talk to people outside the kingdom, about what happens if you don't come into the kingdom? What's fascinating when you actually read Jesus, he talks to people on the inside, about how they might get through and how they might throw themselves out, actually, because it's not that it's not the gods throwing those you are excluding yourself. If you want to run down this line of, of no big is better than small. You've excluded yourself from this journey. Shocking. It's shocking.

John Andrews   47:19  
Totally shocking, is well powerful stuff.

David Harvey  47:27  
Okay, that's it for episode nine. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. If you want to get in touch with either office about something we said you can reach out to us on podcast at two texts.com or by liking and following the to text podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you did enjoy the episode, we'd love it if you left a review or comment where you're listening from. And if you really enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend. Don't forget you can listen to all our podcasts to text calm, or wherever you get your podcasts. But that's it for this episode. We will be back tomorrow. But until then, goodbye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai