Outrageous Forgiveness | Parables 10

In which John and David take a second look at Matthew's version of the parable of the Lost Sheep. Jesus's conversations on forgiveness in Matthew 18 have been used throughout church history to shape church behaviour and ideas about "excommunication". But have we understood Jesus correctly? What if he meant something much more outrageous?

• Click Here to read the text from Matthew 18: 12-35
• Click Here to preview Robert Farrar Capon's Kingdom, Grace and Judgment  which is helpful in understanding Matthew 18

Episode 10 of the Two Texts Podcast | Parables of Jesus Series 10

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Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Transcript

David Harvey  0:01  
Hi there. I'm David Harvey. I'm here with John Andrews. And this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries here every two weeks talking about different texts from the fight. This, however, is our one. And so we're bringing you a daily episode of the two of us talking about the parables of Jesus. This is Episode 10. And it's called outrageous forgiveness. Okay, then, john. So so let's turn our Bibles to Matthew chapter 18. In Matthew chapter 18, verse 12, Jesus simply says this, what do you think? If a shepherd has 100 sheep, and one of them has gone astray? Does he not leave the 99 on the mountains and go in search of that one that went astray? And if he finds it, Truly I tell you, he rejoices over it and more than over the 99 that never went away. So it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should be lost. So so let's continue through 18 passage about the other side of the parable of the lost sheep. Right. So we're, we have drawn lines, from the children, to the least to the kingdom way to the dangers of ignoring the kingdom way to the economy of God, this Shepherd will find all who's lost, and maybe somebody who's listened to that would go well, I feel like you're maybe stretching a bit too, then try and apply that to the church. But you get quite an interesting piece, because Jesus then comes out of that this parable of the lost sheep. This this Eloy, in, you know, verse 12, of Matthew 18, through the verse 14, he comes out to that directly into a story about the church, which is, which is really quite remarkable, because you almost see something of the vision of Jesus and what's going to happen to the kingdom. And of course, this word is, is

John Andrews   2:16  
ecclesia. Here it is. So this because there's there's there's two major references to to ecclesia. In Matthew, Matthew 16, I will build my ecclesia. And then in the context of this conversation, so so in verse 17, tell it to the ecclesia. So So

David Harvey  2:34  
Jesus jumps out of this story about the the lost sheep, and then says, If you essentially, if your brother and you know drops us into this conversation about church, it's kind of beautiful that Jesus is, is almost realizing this language of church, this language of ecclesia, which is community, he's imagining this is what's going to happen with the kingdom of if you obey all of this teaching, you will find yourself in this community that we now call, we now call the church. But it's interesting that he's no drawing a link. So we'll now jump into another passage from jack from verse 15. The emotion of my experience, john hasn't been connected to the story of the lost sheep. But so we've got the first half of the lost sheep is, Hey, be careful of causing little ones to stumble, and and to be scandalized. Now we come on, let's talk then a little bit about the community of the church. And I think we need to come into that with this mindset of, well, we'll actually this is perhaps one of the little ones. So somebody, if you have little ones, if you have young in faith, if you have new to kingdom, the likelihood is there may be going to do something's out of line with the kingdom pride. So, so before so so how do we deal with that? Because we've just said in before the parable of the lost sheep, we've said that we can't do things to cause them problems. So now when they do get themselves in trouble, how are we going to navigate that? It seems to me that that's the link that Jesus is drawing from what happens before this parable to the parable afterwards? Because these two stories come together? Absolutely.

John Andrews   4:06  
And I think there is a real challenge around verses 15 through 20, of this chapter, that in every occasion I've heard it talked about, it's it's ripped out of its context. And therefore then it becomes a sort of three stage. This is how you deal with discipline within the church, and that's become our guidance. So

David Harvey  4:33  
because it's the famous it's the famous text, isn't it? So we've got three somebody does something wrong against you. So you go to them when they're alone, and you point out the fault if they listen great work if they don't you take some more people with you at one or two others along. And so you've now got witnesses and if they still don't listen to you then tell the whole church and if they still don't listen, the text says let such a one beater you as a Gentile and a tax collector. So you're absolutely right. This has become the kind of Modus operandi of how to deal with awkward people in church, you know, we do 123 and then you're gone. In fact, like, within, like a word that would be in high church context would be ex communication that people have been, quite literally cut off from from the community. And that's, and that's been my experience of how this text has been cited, quoted and used. Would that resonate with how you've encountered

John Andrews   5:22  
it? 100%. And that creates a problem in the flow of the text.

David Harvey  5:30  
Like it is you think

John Andrews   5:31  
it doesn't say, but yeah,

David Harvey  5:33  
Jesus says, Hey, by the way, there was a shepherd who refused to let anybody last right? And then the next story is three chances and you're out.

John Andrews   5:40  
Exactly. And then of course, the parable that follows it, is the unmerciful servant who gets an unpayable like, you know, an unpayable debt canceled? And his reaction to that, and the question of Peter, so this jars again, that's, that's one of the things that we've been trying to, as we've just flowed together and discusses is that you're trying to not just see the context, but the flow the trajectory, and also, what Jesus seems to be saying in these few verses seems to jar in the flow of the passage, and also seems to contradict his own lifestyle. So you know, it concludes it concludes with this, you know, dramatic thing, before he makes his final statement, you know, if they don't listen to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. No, no, no, of course, the context of that. It's understood to understand what Jesus trying to do. But of course, when you look at the life of Jesus, he's surrounded by pagans and tax collectors. So so something is going on here that might lean into the idea of our Rabbi conversation earlier on is Jesus is Jesus saying, what it sounds like? He's saying, or is Jesus setting up a scenario here that will provoke the type of conversation he needs, provoked, that will provoke the type of question he wants provoking in order for him to establish what he's really after, in terms of the kingdom. And the little clue for us, David? Is, is Peters question, verse 21. Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister? Right? So So clearly, Peter is picking something up from the previous conversation that's causing him to ask a really important question. Okay, then. So how many times and of course, we'll get into this in a moment, Peter ventures his own answer to Jesus. But the fact that he's asking that question means Jesus is saying something previously, to provoke that question. That's the clue. Yes, it's a

David Harvey  7:54  
random question. And there's also some other clues in there as well, because at one level, what we are saying here could sound really controversial. So we're hinting towards Jesus is saying something, but he might not mean what he's saying. So, so level one, I think, great principle that you're teaching there. But what if this doesn't sound like the sort of thing Jesus normally says? Is it possible we're Miss reading this, right? So let's expand it, you know, let's think about, you know, how does Jesus normally talk throughout the Gospels, really important, but then even in the context of this chapter, and I realize I'm just repeating you here, but I think it's so it's so fundamentally important. He's just told the story. There's a shepherd who refuses to let anyone get lost. Okay, now, what happens if somebody causes you some problems? And there's, there's those little clues. I think, the first clue is the lead into this question about church discipline, I say that, in quotes, is the story of the lost sheep. You've then got that final little clue, which to me is so important. Let one be as a Gentile and a tax collector. If you read a line like that from Jesus, just pause and ask yourself the question, how does Jesus teach treat Gentiles and tax collectors? And, and it's not by kicking them out? Right? It's by it's by welcoming them in so that's quite interesting. So actually, how does Jesus teach treat Gentiles and tax collectors? Ironically, if you jump over to Luke 15, and the Pharisees are saying, Look at how he hangs out with all these tax collectors and sinners. And what's the story, Jesus tells the lost sheep? It's so Okay, so we see what's going on here. And then it's interesting that just before Peter says, If and Jesus offers this binding on earth, and loosing on Earth, if you bind something up if you lose something up, so so in the context, you've got this, this language of how, you know, Jesus is almost appearing to tell a story about will give somebody three chances, and then they're out. And then he says, Oh, and by the way, you know, what you do around this sort of thing has impact between heaven and earth, which is quite, quite fascinating. And then Peter, like you say, then Peter comes to him says, well, but you absolutely right. And this is where we know Jump into, isn't it? That Jesus gives a three strikes and you're out? And we just take that? Absolutely, literally, if Jesus intends you to take that literally, why on earth does Peter then come to and go exactly. So So what I'll do, if somebody causes me a problem, I'll give them seven goals I get, if you read it the way we've read it through church history,

John Andrews   10:20  
it's kind of nuts, isn't it is it's totally it does not fit. So of course, I think even the translators of our Bibles have felt that because they've they've put these gripping sort of headings, I guess, almost almost exaggerates the jharna. Set this this is like you're trying to reach you forgive me for those with automatic cars, but you're trying to reach for third gear, and you accidentally crunch into, you know, first fourth, yeah. first gear, on the car, shoulders, it feels like that. If we're if we're taking Jesus, absolutely. At face level, literally. Okay, because Jesus is advocating a three step program, which ultimately results in which many churches have been engaged in in terms of an actual policy of a sort of an excommunication policy. And I don't think ultimately, that's what he's driving it. I think, actually, he's setting up a scenario of three strikes in your own, which is then why Peter goes, Okay, then, how many times should I forgive my brother, I know, seven times. And it's like, he's listened to the story of Jesus and goes, Well, well, we'll show the kingdom by forgiving not three times, which was a sort of a rabbinic practice, a rabbinic standard was three times is pretty generous, that someone slaps you on the face, sort of in an insult, like three times to forgive them is pretty generous. And Peter goes,

David Harvey  11:52  
let's do seven, and ratchets. This thing, obviously tried to be star pupil, isn't he? He tried to be top of the class.

John Andrews   11:58  
Yeah. Which again, but double plus one. Yeah, indeed. But to be fair to him, it shows us he's grabbing the breadcrumbs. He is understanding Hold on a minute, we started this conversation with who's the greatest in the group. I know, we're on to, you know, how we manage the little ones, the vulnerable ones, the ones who struggle, the ones who are sitting. And Peter, at least I think, bless his heart is grabbing out any it's almost like he's picked up a rope on the ground. And he's like, he's just, he's just winding this thing in and following it. And then he says to Jesus, you know, seven times out, of course, then it's as if Jesus has been waiting for that question. Yes, it's, you could almost see. And I think this is the point that one of your faves Captain makes, you know, he, he argues that Jesus is, is almost setting up a scenario, which literally provokes the type of question that he wants in order for him to make the point that he really wants to make in the context of this passage. And when you then see how he finishes Matthew 18, and how it began. It's just magnificent. Absolutely, the tapestry is preferred.

David Harvey  13:20  
And so when we break it up, it makes Matthew a terrible gospel writer, because, because why is why? why are all these stories together? Or if the stories do run, as I believe they do, as one sequence from the life of Jesus? If we take them away, we've read them historically, Jesus is remarkably muddled. Lately, I'll teach you about, you know, three strikes and you're out. And then I'll teach you about 77 times. What's remarkable for me is I would venture a guess that most of our listeners, well, maybe not most of our listeners, I don't know that actually. But many of our listeners will have heard of the three strikes, you're out church discipline thing. Many listeners will have heard of the How many times do I forgive my brother? 70 times seven, right? What, what would be fascinating is how many of us knew those passages are right next to each other? And so, so think about that, who's the who's the greatest Jesus? Well, you've got to be great. You got to be small. Okay, so what about small? Well, the problem of being small disciples is you get trampled on really easily. So let's just be careful here. The kingdom of God could become a trampling mechanism, if we're not careful, so don't become a trampling mechanism, because everybody's important. I mean, everybody to get me disciples, everybody, what do you mean? What do you mean by everybody? A man had 100 sheep, okay. And one of them got lost. And he went to look for it. Obviously, you really mean everybody? Yep. I mean, everybody is important and we can't tremble on them. So imagine somebody comes along. Here's a scenario for you disciple. Somebody comes along and they do something that offends your or, or sins against you how many chances you're going to get them. I'll be really good. Give them three and Peter sniffs it. Normally. This is the test. This is the rabbinic test. I'm here. I'm ready for it through So I'm going to go with threes are good numbers, very good holistic number in enthuse thinking. So what if I did double double on one off seven sevens a great number? So I'm going to go seven that'll that'll do me well, so I'm gonna go seven, Jesus, I'm Let's be, I think you've been a bit stingy Jesus, let's go seven times your forgiveness. And then Jesus says 70 times seven, which I think john is just, it's like, my daughter does this thing. Sometimes you say that? How much do you love me? And she wants a number and whatever number I say, she just invents some like, you know, pavilion, or Google or something like that. Seven in Jewish kind of number, thinking 70 times seven is like seeing infinity times infinity. You know, Jesus is saying, just keep forgiving. So Peter smells the trap. Well, not the trap is the wrong word to use. He smells the test thinks he's pushed it far. And Jesus just says no, I'm just going to run that right through the doors and down the street. And and then it just brilliant Jesus way and don't miss the connections. listeners, notice that have verse 23 stars. For this reason, the kingdom of heaven is like this. Okay? So he then he gets to know you've got to keep reading your daily devotions is just stretched up, you thought you're reading a few verses. So to start from Matthew 18, but you're still going, what is the kingdom of heaven like and now this is for me, this is a fascinating connection. So for this reason, what reason, well, this thing this, we're talking about forgiveness now. So for this reason, let me explain what the kingdom of heaven is like, okay. It's like a king, who wish to settle the accounts, who wish to settle accounts with those who served him when he began. So when he begins his accounting, one who owed him 10,000 talents was brought to him. How many times seven times No, no, no infinity times infinity. Let me tell you a story. A man who had 10,000 talents, right? This is like, one talent. So just just to drop us into first century context. One talent. In fact, you'll see this sometimes in the notes of your Bible, a talent is for the average labor is about 15 years wages. So So Jesus facing says, Let me tell a story. Somebody owed somebody a billion extra makeup, it's just a ridiculously large number. This man is stuffed, basically. Yeah,

John Andrews   17:21  
of course. Yeah, I think it's absolutely fantastic. Because because, of course, the idea here playing into Jesus, how many times? No one, no one develops a billion dollar debt. instantly. Exactly. So it's a buildup of debt. So this is a man who hasn't been paying his debts, there have

David Harvey  17:42  
been borrowing money.

John Andrews   17:43  
Exactly. And and that we mustn't miss that point. Because I think Jesus picks a ridiculous figure 10,000 talents, I worked at idea that that 60 million denarii, which would take the demand like over 160 years to pay off on a on a sort of a laborer salary. So it's a it's an enormous amount of money. And it's deliberately because no one gets to all that amount of money, instantly. And that's an accumulation of debt, which means the master the king has been tolerant with that, that an eye he's calling in the note, he's calling in the monitors. And so, so so so he could not love this. And he could not pay? Well, of course.

David Harvey  18:30  
It's like, it's like Jeff Bezos, it turns out that, that you borrowed money from the Amazon owner, and you know, on, you know, or $5 trillion. And, surprisingly enough, David did not have $5 trillion. And so the Lord ordered him to be sold together with his wife and children and all his possessions and payment to be made. So this is a slavery that's happened, because he's no, everything's gone. And now he has to figure out a way to pay him back. But that but this,

John Andrews   18:57  
I'm sorry, to pause there, David, of course, that the idea of indebtedness, and some of our listeners will will know this, that if you if I owed you money, and I couldn't pay that I became an indebted slave to you. And I literally worked off the debt. But of course, ironically, there's no working off this debt. This that's gonna take three or four lifetimes to a death sentence if he's lucky, right. So clearly, again, Jesus, remember Jesus is telling the parable. He is deliberately playing with the words here to show that even if you follow the normal cultural trajectory of selling someone into indebtedness, somewhat, this is never even gonna touch the surface of this particular scenario.

David Harvey  19:42  
It's just phenomenal isn't the extent to which Jesus just says this is a ridiculous story. But then, but then the servant falls on his knees before him. Yeah, and the language is really interesting. It's often translated your patients which is totally fine. Be patient with me. The Greek word macro Soumya be big hearted with me like have a heart surgeon says, you know, because essentially I am in a match. So, so you know, and I will pay you everything. It's ridiculous, right? And, of course, but then you get this very common word that appears in the Gospels and the Lord of the sleeve then has spank needs for spine. midsumma is beautiful, this Greek verb he has its spanking, it is your bowels, your guns. He feels it in his guts is what we get the word compassion from so he has compassion from him and forgave him the debt. The accountant, the accountant King gives up his Robert Kaplan, in his brilliant book that we've alluded to already that the parables of Kingdom grace and judgment Captain essentially says that the bookkeeper gives up being a bookkeeper. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let you go then. And, and, you know, and it's stunning, you know, the parable already is is essentially there. So, Jesus, let me be really brave here. I'm gonna forgive my brother seven times. Geez, no, no, not, not seven times you 70 times seven a billion times a million. In fact, let me tell you a story a man owed, you know, $50 trillion. And I needed to pay and because he got into how he got into that debt required a lot of forgiveness to get there. And yet still, when the time came, the big hearted, compassionate, forgave him. There's already a stunning parable. But then verse 28, but that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow slaves who owed him 100 denarii. Right. And seizing him by the throat, he said, pay what you owe. And then it fell asleep, fell, fell down, pleaded with him, Have patience with me, and I will pay you but he refused. And he went in through into prison until he would pay the debt, which by the way, you can't pay the debt from prison, right? No. So when his fellow slaves, so it happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went reported to their Lord all the taking place. And then this Lord summoned him and said, You wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt because you plead with me, should you not have had mercy on your fellow slave as I had mercy on you. And in his anger, the Lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt. Wow. And then if and then just one final rotation of the ratchet. So my Heavenly Father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother, or sister from your heart, wow, like, Whoa, that that. And then just, you know, and then verse nine, Chapter 19, verse one, when Jesus had finished saying these things he left. So now we have reached, you've got a clue in the tags. Now you've got to the end of that, you know, so just to help the reader to feel okay, there are places where you can clearly go can take a breath now, but just like stunning that Jesus now does on the second half of the last son of the last sheep parable, exactly what he did on the first half, the warning isn't regarding the ones who are in trouble, the warning is regarding how we treat each other, you know, that, that if you want to be part of the kingdom, this is what it looks like. And of course, there's obvious resonance here with Jesus his own forgiveness with God's own forgiveness to us. How could it be it's so ridiculous, the story is so nuts that who would really act like this servant, and at one level, you're you're you're you're looking at this going, like, who would act like the sermon you preach this people go that servants behavior is ridiculous. And one of my bits, I'm just gonna third time, I'm gonna quote him. And you because I'm hoping that people will then go and read this book, but Captain makes just a phenomenal point where he says, who would behave like this? and Katherine says, all of us. For sure all of us behave like this. Because we actually struggle to be forgiving, even though we have a God who's forgiven us every percent.

John Andrews   24:02  
It's, it's magnificent. And of course, Jesus leaves us absolutely at the end of that parable with nowhere to go, in the sense that there's no doubt what he means by this. And it's one of the few occasions where he gives such a clear on profound conclusion. You know, you know, in the same way your heavenly Father will, or my Heavenly Father will so it's absolutely unmissable that if if having had my own payable debt, canceled, by God Himself, I must imbibe that same attitude and forgive my brother and my sister who in comparison for a relatively small amount, even if it's a grievous harm in comparison to what we have done to God and owed to God, this is a relatively Small debt to to cancel. And again, Mary's the whole thing together. So we end up with a magnificent chapter deeply troubled, some deeply scary in some places. We're the language of Jesus is both grace filled, but also incredibly strong, aggressive and uncompromising. But again, as we've as we've alluded to, that that uncompromising language is not is not to the unbeliever who doesn't know what God wants, but it's to the community that claims to know. We've got so that uncompromising parable of the lost sheep is to his own young disciples. You are a part of the end crowed. And of course then the unmerciful servant is to the gathered ecclesia book called out community who must and should know better so it is an unmistakable conclusion to a gloriously disturbing passage. It's so disturbing this disturbing out if it doesn't disturb you. I genuinely David, if this doesn't disturb us, we're not reading it, right. I mean, seriously, like I don't want to hurt or offend any of our listeners that it's not our but like, know, if we're reading that properly. If we're following the breadcrumbs that we've tried to pick up today, oh, my goodness, that you disturb me It should it should really get under my skin. And make me think about rate higher my treating the little ones on how do I respond to my brother and to my sister? And I maybe need to take that a bit more seriously? Yes,

David Harvey  26:49  
yes. And, and how, how much am I seeing God in all of this, like I'm thinking about the text in Romans chapter 12. Where were Paul is writing, you know, getting towards the end of his lecture to the Romans, and he says, you'll live peaceably. Verse 17, do not repeat evil for evil, but take thought for what is normal in the sight of all. If it's possible, as far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all, beloved, first 90, never avenge yourself, but leave room for the wrath of God for His written Vengeance is mine. And I will repay says the Lord. So So you think about that. But then what's shocking about this is, if the Lord is the Lord in the parable, even God Himself chooses not to take out the vengeance, you know, choose these to be big hearted and compassionate. So there's this beautiful sense that when we, you know, it's almost as if Paul's saying, you know, this is what forgiveness is, is saying, God, I trust you with this, because it's too much for me to carry. So shall we just, we just lob it over to him. And then the remarkable thing is that God doesn't take the sins against us. And good, don't worry, I'll sort this out. We've got to be brave enough to accept that God's gonna go, don't worry, I'll forgive this too. Which is not what we want. You know, 1234567, punch in the face. Number eight, I'm coming for you. And I've encountered people who have said, you know, what, well, you know, I'm going to still keep count, you know, and, and the point is, if you go, what is it three? No, it's not three. Is it? Is it seven? No, it's not seven. Some translations think maybe it's 77. Some translations think the way to deal with that Greek phrase is 7773 77 or 490? Well, then I think the connection here is, the king was settling accounts. And you began reckoning, the actual point is, it's not three, it's not seven. It's not 70 times seven. It stopped counting. It's, it's that because, again, think about the whole passage, when you start counting, you start thinking about best, you start thinking about bigger, you start thinking about about, you know, the size, and the kingdom is mikra. The kingdom is small, it's, it's just stunning storytelling and teaching from Jesus, isn't it? It's magnificent. It's magnificent. And, you know, it's, it's taking that to our hearts, and recognizing that,

John Andrews   29:26  
to grab the heart of that beautiful final parable and tie it to the lost sheep parable. We were lost and he pursued us so that we were not destroyed. Whatever scandalized us, he pursued us so that that scandalizing of our lives did not destroy us. And we had an unpayable debt that a million lifetimes couldn't have paired, and he canceled it out of his big heartedness. And if we can, if we can imbibe something of the spirit of that big heart Witness the, the value of the of the one, the, the importance of the small, and the courage to be big hearted with those who have offended us in the way that he has been big hearted because we've offended him, I think. I think it gives us a chance to see the kingdom of God manifest in us and through us, among us. And it's, it's glorious.

David Harvey  30:33  
I want to just make this point really quickly, slightly out of sync. But I think it's important to make as to pastors in the conversation, that that forgiveness doesn't mean that you just pretend that nothing ever happened, right? So, so if somebody has hurt you, for example, or abused you, this is not a message which says, treat them as if nothing happened, you know, there's that line in the Proverbs about, you know, a dog returning to its vomit, that there are times where you have to see that person is bad for me and justice might need to work it sometimes the way that God works is allows the systems of worldly justice. That's what Paul's talking about in Romans 12. Let let justice of the world sometimes work its way out, you know that we have police services and things like that for right and good reason. So, so there's that language of the point that, that for me anyway, and I'd love to hear your take on this as well. His forgiveness, isn't me saying you have hurt me, I'm gonna pretend like everything's okay. And we'll just be friends again, because somebody might not want to be forgiven, somebody might say, No, I'm still gonna keep acting like that. Forgiveness is saying, I'm not going to try and get even anymore, you know, so I'm done. I'm walking away from this, if you don't want to apologize, if you don't want to drop back into your into harmony, if you don't want to correct the way you behave, if you don't want to be changed and come like one of the little ones, that's yours to deal with. But I'm not living there anymore. So my forgiveness is me handing it over to God. Because sometimes I've heard the sort of almost the mindset of forgiveness means no, you just go back and just start treating the person as if it happened. And if the other person isn't partaking in the forgiveness with you, and changing the behavior, that could become a disruptive loop, that throws us into the first half of the parable about scandals, and that sort of thing, would you would you resonate with that?

John Andrews   32:29  
Totally. And I would say just to add to that, David, I think if you've summarized that brilliantly, I think there is a profound difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. You know, the idea of, of forgiveness actually doesn't require reconciliation, you don't need an apology, we, we don't even need to kind of say this carefully to like the person. But but to use the parable, you know, he sends away the debt. Literally the words, you know, that we've, we've touched on before where Jesus from the cross His Father, forgive them, it's ascending away from yourself, it's ascending away. And the point of forgiveness is not actually for the person you're forgiving. Point to forgive this is for your own freedom. Now, if there's if there's a conversation to be heard about, can that forgiveness lead to us being friends, again, that's a different conversation. And I would say this to to our to our listeners, I would say, you can forgive without reconciliation. But if you want to reconcile, you must forgive. So you could have you can have forgiveness without reconciliation, but I don't think you can have reconciliation without forgiveness. But they are two slightly different conversations. And we must not get them confused.

David Harvey  33:47  
And if we do sometimes get them confused, we

John Andrews   33:48  
get them very confused. And sometimes the Christian community has been so so keen to push towards reconciliation, we haven't addressed forgiveness properly. I know what this is opening up into a whole other world of conversation, but and maybe that's often we'll return to, but I think it's very important to make a distinguishing between forgiveness and reconciliation. We are technically forgiven in Christ Jesus, every human on planet Earth is technically has access to forgiveness through the death of Jesus Christ, but not every human will be reconciled to God.

David Harvey  34:22  
And of course, you get this sense that if you actually see it in the parable, that forgiveness doesn't level everything back off all the time. The king is still short, his 10,000 talents. Yeah. So so we sometimes you know, I think when we blur reconciliation, forgiveness, we assume everybody's happy at the end, the king has to take a difficult journey. Now, you know, in terms of I'm no short all of this. And for me, that's the point that you realize that forgiveness is a huge step. It's an important step. But but it just, I've just heard it so many times where then the, the mikra the little one who's been hurt is then almost encouraged. to re enter hurtful and dangerous situations in the name of forgiveness. And, you know, if someone's you know, if someone's beating you, or abusing you, forgiveness doesn't mean you have to stay in that place for

John Andrews   35:13  
absolutely true. Absolutely true. 100%

David Harvey  35:21  
Okay, so that's it for Episode 10. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. If you want to get in touch with either office about something we said you can reach out to us on podcast at two texts.com or by liking and following the to texts podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you did enjoy the episode, we'd love it if you left a review or comment where you're listening from. And if you really enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend. Don't forget you can listen to all our podcasts to text calm or wherever you get your podcasts. But that's it for this episode. We will be back tomorrow But until then, goodbye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai