Unknown & Automatic | Parables 5

In which John and David consider the parable of the farmer who plants some seed.
Mark 4:21-34 talks about how the farmer's seed grows in a way that the farmer doesn't entirely understand and it happens without his input. How is this similar to the Kingdom of God? 

• Click Here to read the text from Mark 4:21-34 
• David wants you to know that the quote he cited around 51 minutes wasn't Chadwick or Gibbon, but T.R. Glover: “The day was to come when men would call their dogs Nero and their sons Paul." 

Episode 5 of the Two Texts Podcast | Parables of Jesus Series 5

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Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021 

Transcript

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David Harvey  0:01 
Welcome to the two texts podcast. I'm your host, David Harvey, and I'm here with my co host, John Andrews. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries here every two weeks talking about two different texts from the Bible. This is our launch series, however, so we're bringing you a daily episode of the two of us talking about the parables of Jesus. This is Episode Five, and it's called unknown and automatic. Okay, john, so we're going to begin by reading from Mark chapter four, verses 21 to 34. Jesus said to them, Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed, instead, don't you put it on it stand for whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed. And whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. If anyone has ears, let them hear. consider carefully what you hear, he continued, with the measure you use, it will be measured to you and even more, whoever has will be given more, whoever does not have even what they have, will be taken from.

John Andrews   1:20 
He also said this is what the kingdom of God is like a man scatter seed on the ground, night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up the seed sprouts and grows. Though he does not know Hi, all by itself, the soil produces corn versus the stock, then the ear, then the food green in the ear. As soon as the green is rape. He puts the sickle to it. Because the harvest has come

David Harvey  1:49 
again, he said, What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable Shall we use to describe it? It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on Earth. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants with such big branches that the birds can perch in shade. With many similar parables, Jesus spoke the word to them as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his disciples, He explained everything. Don't you wish, john that sometimes we had those explanations written down as well?

John Andrews   2:36 
Absolutely, yes. There's those beautiful little moments in the scriptures. One of my favorites, not not parabolic at all. But Luke 24. I know, I know. We love the Luke 24 posses to do on the road to a mess. And beginning with Moses and the prophets, Jesus explained to them about himself from the scriptures. And you think, Luke, why didn't you write that? Where is that sermon, even if just stick it in the appendix or something that doesn't even have to be in the Gospel? And you sort of think, Wow, what a sermon that would have been, and I love that sort of you wanted, of course, that lovely little bit at the end where it says he explained everything is almost a little mirror reflection. Earlier in the chapter, verse 10, I think it is when he was alone, the 12, and the others around him asked about the parables. And he told him, the secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. So you get this sort of this sort of almost introduction sense where the disciples are going, we know something's really big going on here. We know, you're saying some cool stuff, can't quite get our head around it, and so that the conversation begins, and then you get that lovely, fatal emphasis sort of at the end. And he explained everything to them. I love that. And it's a beautiful inset. And of course, it does show as David doesn't it that, that some of the parables did need it did need explanation, they actually do need unpacking and even in a culture that would have understood some of that language, biblically, some of the imagery, of course, and of course, that the standout statement, The kingdom of heaven is like, or what is the kingdom of heaven? Like, I mean, that's one of the most controversial ideas in the context of the first century so that Jesus probably had to do a lot of explaining in the context of that to stop people jumping to the wrong sorts of conclusions.

David Harvey  4:29 
And there's also that element which we've talked about in this series already about, but I think it's worth repeating about how when you're dealing with something as abstract to us as the kingdom of God something that is hard for us to get our heads around these kind of multiple windows in of the parables are, are helpful to us, aren't they? So connecting that in then, you know, this, this to me seems to link into what g starts with in our in our passage in this episode about struggle do you bring a lamp to put it under a bull or a bed instead? Don't you put it on its stand this whole notion and what we're seeing the repetition of ideas that we've talked about already in this series about this hiddenness thing and this concealed miss the ears to hear, let let them hear. So there's a lot of ideas, we're seeing Jesus kind of tie together now to try and make sense to us. But then asking us this question of what do you hide something under under a bowl or a bed that's supposed to give light? Now there's some irony, I think in this because it's following this sequence of parables, some of which, as we've noticed, are not always entirely clear. So there's almost a level you could be if you're brave enough, turn around to Jesus and say, Well, wait a minute. Aren't some of these parables like putting a lamp under under a bowl? Or are you trying to do something to us here,

John Andrews   5:54 
Jesus, and it's interesting.

He goes on to say, for whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, whatever is conceived is meant to be brought into the open. And then a verse 24, he says, consider carefully what you hear. So it's almost to me that phrase, which then leads into the next bit where he starts to talk about those that have, they'll get more those that don't have even what the heart will be taken away, which, again, is quite quite paradoxical. But that link that linkage between Jesus and you know, we're putting the lump out so that everyone can see. And yet there's some ambiguity. And then within that, he says, No, listen, carefully, consider carefully how you hear and isn't it really striking, it just, he doesn't just say, Listen carefully, but pay careful attention to what you hear. And the potential perhaps for missing what is being heard. And that I, you know, if Jesus is using that illustration, I'm bringing the lamp boat, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shed some light on the kingdom of God. But if you're not listening carefully, to what is being said, you could end up thinking you've got but what you've got will be taken away, and those who do have them, then more will be given to them. There's almost this this tension, contradictory tension, paradoxical tension, in the way Jesus is illustrating that tours, I think, again, it's back to the sort of idea of, of hiddenness being brought out. A sense of, we're not just dealing here with knowledge, there is a regulatory element to this that some of your going to see things you've never seen before. And then the challenge that if you are prepared only to hear this, in the framework, you've always heard it in before, you are going to miss how I am presenting the kingdom of God to you. So it's a real challenge, as well as I think, an invitation to his audience, that there's something here to be hard, the lump, but there's also dynamically, something to be missed. And that if you don't hear it carefully, then then it's going to be taken from you very, very challenging way of the way he connects those big ideas. I think

David Harvey  8:40 
it's interesting, even the phrase geology in marks Greek, you know, he he literally, you know, see what you hear, you know, which which is is a bit of a mind bender as a phrase at some sense, but I think it's that sense of, of just, you know, I think consider carefully what you hear is a great translation of this, but by all means, but but I love that visible this, there's a lab, bringing light, and light makes you see if everyone has here ears to hear, hear, but then Jesus is but see what you hear, you know, but I want to pick up on that comment you made about the kingdom not being as you expected. And that, to me is quite an interesting piece here. Because one of the hard things I think about trying to deal with a group of parables like we are today is that sometimes you almost need to have all the parables in your head at the same time to see what Jesus is stitching together. But there's something that strikes me as really interesting and all of these seed parables that we've looked at, that the seed is already here and amongst us, the lamp is already lit in here. So if these things are the kingdom and you know and this is what we're about to see, you know, in our in our kind of main parable in this in this text, but this is what the kingdom of God is like and Jesus has said this numerous times now, all of the time. The shall we call it the active ingredient, be it seed or yeast or treasure in a field. It's here, it's already present. And I think that's a really interesting controversy for Jesus in the first century. So the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, this language of heaven, I think it's worth mentioning is a very Matthew like way of just not talking directly about God, which your classic, you know, I think scholars around the world have pointed out that that would seem a little uncomfortable to constantly just be seeing God as a Jewish focused writer. So you get this language of Kingdom of Heaven. I think it's important, because sometimes I think the language of Kingdom of Heaven pushes us to think it's talking about somewhere else, you know, that we're talking about, but this so this language of Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, I think, in Jesus's context, is something expected in the future. It's something that's coming. It's something that's not here yet. But I'd even be tempted then to say, john, that in a lot of Christian thinking, you hear that idea as well, that the kingdom is something that's coming in, or it's something it's in the future. And yet, in all of these parables, the kingdom is something that's already here. And there's various things that are then going to tweak those parables around how we see it, how we access it, how we connect to it. But now you've got this in Mark 21, this sense of well, the kingdom is here. But what are you going to do with it? and so on. And this is where I find this passage really interesting. So do you bring a lamp in and put it under a bull or a bat? Well, the answer is clearly no. And not withstanding the ineffectiveness of the lamp, the fire risk of this even somewhat terrifying. So, you know, so no, of course you don't. And of course, this is one of those very classic parable look sort of structures, isn't it? Where you know the answer instantly? Yes, nobody does that with a lamp, right? Because what is hidden is meant to be disclosed. So light is supposed to be brought into the darkness. But then you get this little warning, the measure you use, it will be measured to you. So here's my steps of thinking about this, john, because it's quite interesting that you've got, you know, the some of the parables out there. And again, this goes to our point of not of not overly taking parables, literally because they'll fall apart. And so a man finds a treasure on the field, and he hide, he hides it again, keeps it to himself and goes to get it. But that's not the attitude that Jesus, Jesus is saying, have this attitude about finding the kingdom. But his attitude of hiding it, then and not letting anyone else have it. That's not part of the parables interpretation, because now we get to this point and says, Well, if you have the light, let it shine. But this isn't, isn't zero stakes, because he then says, with the measure you use, it will be measured to you and even more. I hear these echoes again of that that line in the Lord's Prayer. You know, forgive us as we forgive those. So the kingdoms here, and you can hide it. That's the fascinating thing for me, john, is it's that it is possible for you to hide the kingdom of God, you as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus can love Jesus want to be about Jesus, but do things that conceal the kingdom of God. And Jesus seems to be just saying here, just be careful with that, because you're concealing has a much absurdly

John Andrews   13:27 
phenomenal insight into that. And I think, I think, of course, for the for the first century audience hearing his conversation, they would have been thinking, well, if the kingdom is here, why isn't the world changing? You know, if the kingdom is here? Why aren't the Romans leaving? If the kingdom is here? Why is taxation such a burden if the kingdom is here, why is and I think, again, this would have been one of the great challenges for Jesus in using such loaded ideas that carried such dynamic, religious, political and cultural overtones. And yet he is seeking to redefine or properly define the kingdom. And of course, saying to his audience, the kingdom is right here. You know, when he teaches his young disciples to pray, he says, pray, Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And again, I suppose the you know, folks could could lean into interpreting that purely futuristically but the whole tenor of the prayer Jesus teaches his disciples it's about it's about the hearing. No, it's about bread today. It's about forgiving those that have debts against you today. It's about it's about deliverance from evil today. So there's a whole sense of bringing something into today and Jesus is introducing, I think, a radical idea that the kingdom to quote Luke on this, the kingdom is among you, it's already here. It's it's just open your eyes look around. And I love what, there's a beautiful tension in this where we see maybe the tension of this illustrated if we're prepared to go sideways on this with John's relationship with Jesus, you know, john is the one set up to prepare the way. And yet from his prison cell, he's asking the question, Are you the one that I prepared the way for? And, you know, there's a whole conversation around our phenomenal, phenomenal mains better than mine have engaged in what's going on in John's brain here. But But it seems to me a rather simplistic answer fits best for me and that john absolutely knew he was the one who should prepare the way I think you put the Gospels together, that's clear. There's no doubt in his mind, to use johannine language that when he sees Jesus, he sees the Lamb of God. So we've got that's sort of locked and loaded. And yet he's asking, Are you the one? And I think I think you've got John's expectation of the kingdom, and therefore his expectation of Messiah, which I think had more fire in it than then, then, you know, Grace, I think john was looking for a whole bunch of fire to calm and I think his language is very strong. So he's looking for judgment, he's looking for the fire of the kingdom. He's looking for Jesus to sort the in justices out and fix everything. Of course, he's not seeing that, in fact, Jesus is avoiding political controversy. He's avoiding new sorts of issues. And instead, and of course, with John's disciples common sort of say, john sent us to ask, Are you the one? And he says, we'll go and tell john, what you see. And in reality, of course, what he's saying to him to john and his disciples, look around you, this is the kingdom of God, this is the kingdom I'm bringing. So it's not only the excitement that the kingdom is already here illustrated in these beautiful parables. But of course, it's the type of Kingdom it's there. What sort of Kingdom is this where we're Romans are also sort of getting access to this message, as well as tax collectors and sinners and the sort of people that we wouldn't have expected to get access into this. And I think this is, this is all got to be seen, the parables have got to be seen in the context of the trajectory of Jesus's ministry, the margins, he's touching, the people he's engaging with, though, as Matthew says, sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, he is he is not averse to dealing with the margins, on dealing with the Gentile margins. Within that, I'd say you're getting this kingdom thing is touching lots of areas that a strictly first century in house audience would not have expected to be. And I think then when you hear the lump conversation, and be careful how you hear conversation, and those who have moral be given and those who you know, who sort of think they have and a sense, they're gonna lose, I think then all that conversation makes sense, when connected to the wider trajectory. In a vacuum, it's very troublesome and very difficult in the context of what Jesus is doing and the reactions to him. It's totally, totally understandable. And it makes perfect sense in some ways.

David Harvey  18:21 
It strikes me how Jesus is dealing with the religious hearts, let's talk about it like that, like and we all have a religious heart. So I'm not having a, you know, a go at any one person in particular here in the story, but in terms of its its didactic purpose, its teaching purposes, a parable for those of us in the 20th century. You know, Jesus is saying, you know, I'm thinking through all the parables, you know, imagine a sore when you just throw seed everywhere. Whereas what we want is a sore that just puts the seed in the right place. And then imagine a, you know, a woman mixing up door and she puts the yeast and mixes it through everything and there's lots of it. And you know, there's a man he finds treasure, if you're the buys the whole field, to try it to try and deal with this. But the religious heart says, that might not be the right metaphor to use for it, but I'm going to stick with it for the moment. The religious heart wants to make things exclusive right wants to say that we're the inner circle, you see this in religions and cults the world over in fact, actually, let me see the different you see this in humans the world over. We like to pick on on religious organizations for this sort of thing, but you see it in golf clubs. You see it in, you know, social groupings. We like knowing who's in and who's out and we like having our boundary lines and in truth, I think if I'm reading Jesus correctly, Jesus, if he wasn't speaking in parables might say this. Listen, you like your lamp, hon. You actually You know, I don't want you to, you know, I don't want you to get some of my light. You know, we, we, you know, we more lawns and we cut those straight line down our side of the grass and don't go into our neighbors because you know, and and we do this and this, I think and this is what I mean by the religious heart not related to any one particular religion, but there's something in humans that likes to conceal, likes to hide, likes to protect it, and we see it in nature. And then Jesus is coming along saying, Well, what if the way that you give it out is the way that it will be given to you, you know, and, and then you see that in verse 25, the echo of the parable of the talents, and the parable of the coins that will come in other parts of the gospel stories where that same phrase starts coming out that the in this weird Kingdom investment, you gain, not by keeping, but by giving, you know, you know, so Well, the problem is, if I just let anybody use my light, there's going to be less light to go around. And, and then now you start to see perhaps why Jesus is talking in parables, is because the economics of the kingdom don't work for us. They don't make sense for us. It's you, how do you have more you invest it? You, you know, you save it, you know? And then here's Jesus saying, Well, actually, no. You're, you know, that's not how this is going to work. So it's almost like this little rejoinder in the middle of these parables, reminding everyone number one, the kingdoms here, number two, the kingdom's not working, how you naturally want it to work. And the implications of that are strong, even

John Andrews   21:37 
though it's powerful, I think, too. If If you add the political context into this, where you've got a people group that are exiles in their own country, they are by every sense of the word, enslaved to the juggernaut of Rome. And, of course, you know, when you threaten any group of people, or threaten any identity, or threaten any family, what do they do, they use an old Western analogy, they circle the wagons, they pull down, you know, the barriers, they, they defend, even if they knew they're wrong, they will defend each other because they're being threatened. And when someone is threatening your way of life, then you tend to go into a protectionist mode. And I think Jesus engages with a dynamic religious community, I mean, a very powerful religious community with lots of threads in it. And I think what you're getting for some of them is not just zeal for Moses, but I think a genuine, we've got to defend God, we've got to defend our revelation and our oracles of truth against these rump and pagans with her multiple Gods under God, Caesar, we do not want to succumb to this. And so I think if you throw that into the mix, then it's totally I totally get why a first century Jewish person wouldn't want to share this. With a Roman, I get that I totally, because I'm a human. And I'm, I'm prone to ego and selfishness and sectarianism and tribalism, because that's the worst side of us, as well as the best side of us in terms of if we manage that properly. So, so and Jesus, here he is, comes in and stressed and mess with those lines, he's starting to mess with an understanding, The kingdom of God is much more robust than this. It's, it doesn't need protecting God does it need protecting, the more you try and protect him, you know, the more you try to put that lamp on that ball on that lamp, we're gonna get trouble. And actually, he's, he's forcing the conversation, which ultimately will lead to a dynamic conclusion that the kingdom of God will not be contained within the borders of any one nation, or within the claim of any one people, which of course, ironically, historically, even in the pages of the Tanakh, was never God's plan. God's plan was always that his people would be late to the Gentiles, that they would bring healing to the nations. So I think you're getting the realization of so many ideas, but of course, it is dropping right in the middle of a polarized, troubled, violent, and dangerous society. And Jesus is is challenging all of those lines in his definition of this, this kingdom.

David Harvey  24:42 
Well, it just strikes me as so culturally relevant This is you only need to switch on the news. And you see whether from religious groups or from societies, this sense of how do we how do we deal with this? You know, we're we're recording this You know, spring 2021, think of some of the conversations that are going on in the world. You know, you have, you know, political conversations in the USA, where it seems to be very religiously focused and based on one group fighting for their group, again, the others, you know, many of the Western countries of the world debating your immigration, which kind of comes into the same sense. And we even have conversations in the news about countries deciding how much vaccine for Coronavirus. They're going to allow you to go to another Jesus is targeting a basic human behavior here, which is we keep stuff to ourselves. And, and unsurprisingly, perhaps if you've got the hints so far in these parables, the kingdom of God isn't going to work like that. But then there's this little kind of transition then to this next parable, john, which, you know, start to see perhaps why Jesus has been choosing particular metaphors. He's focused a lot on seeds, they're quite small, which I always think is something that's worth just noticing the kingdom of God doesn't, you know, not only is john expecting something, you know, john the baptist expecting some liberation movement with soldiers perhaps and like, say fire and judgment, Jesus is using all these metaphors and is consistently small things that he's referring to holistic things, you know, but there's a there's a pearl somewhere here, there's a treasure somewhere in this field, there's yeast, tiny little bit of yeast, and you know, you know, gallons of flour. And then now he comes in and almost begins to throw away a little bit about why he likes seed metaphors so much, because there is okay, so you know, a person scatter seed on the ground. And then you get this sense that, and it just does what it does.

John Andrews   27:20 
Scattered it, it's fine. And you get the same sort of language farmer scattered. And we've got another scattering analogy here, which is absolutely beautiful. Soon, it's almost a recklessness to the scattering, which then either says, well, either this guy like is just is prepared to waste stuff. Or he has such confidence in what he is scattering that he knows, this is going to work. This is going to work sooner or later, somehow or other, this is going to work on some of the phrase ology I just love within that. Night and day, wherever he sleeps, or gets up the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know Hi, now of course, today we wait. It's brilliant, 21st century and we can Google all this, we've got the science of all of this. But of course, first century world these guys know, well, there's something that in this seed that just works. It just works. And every time we put this stuff on the ground, works, it grows, and he does not know Hi, and then I love the second little bit all by itself, the soil produces the grid, it's it's almost like Jesus is saying the very opposite of our human desire is to control is to, well, let's just make sure we've got the soil, right, that's just make sure the conditions are right, let's make sure we've got a greenhouse built. You know, that's because we've got, you know, scare crews out the scare off this. It's like we want to manipulate and properly. So we as humans, we want to control the conditions, and here's Jesus go on this in this kingdom, it'll just work. Your job is not to worry about the conditions, your job is just a scatter this seed get this seed out there as much of it as you can, in terms of the kingdom. No, because I think, I think that the metaphor has shifted, it's gone from the word per se, to what is the kingdom of heaven, like what's the kingdom of God, like? And I think that's resident in our actions and our behavior in in in the proper sense of word, our righteousness that comes out of this understanding of the kingdom. And he's just saying scatter this stuff, just put it out there. But of course, when we're scattering, we're thinking, well, what's this going to? Cause? Where's it going to go? Well, we get a return and how high can we control it? And Jesus is scoring, stop worrying about that. Just scatter the seed, put it out there, under supreme confidence in Jesus in this thing, called the kingdom of God, whatever it is, Jesus is saying, once it hits the ground, it is gonna grow once The East hits the dough, boom, this thing's gonna work. What? Once that's gets contact, it will work. And I just think for followers of Jesus listening to this, just the supreme confidence of that, sometimes we worry about that everybody understand that, that everybody get that delivery? And absolutely, we've got to think about that stuff. And then sometimes you just got to relax, and just let the kingdom of God do its work amongst us. And I actually love that I love the simplicity of it. And the love almost the humor of Jesus goes, the guy doesn't even know how it works. It just works. It just works.

David Harvey  30:34 
Yeah, it is, it is great, isn't it, you don't need to be a scientist to work to work the kingdom, which I really, I really like it. And that's, you know, and that's a lesson for all of us, you know, scholars, like, you know, like you and me, you know, people who have given large amounts of their time to study in the text, which is mentally valuable. But the kingdom works. Jesus, he's confident in his is that it will do its work. I love this to Greek. So I'm moments in this passage that I always think are worth mentioning, I'll give you the the first one that I love here is that all by itself, the Greek word is automatic, where we get the idea automatic, you know, it happens automatically. And I like the phrase all by itself, but there's something about automatically that I like, even more, it's, you know, there's that sense of what it's just going to happen. So don't think that you know that you're having as much influence on this as you think you are, which in one sense gives us a little bit of relaxation, because we have a tendency to over inflate our own important, some shoulders, don't we? I think as pastors, you know, there's a temptation to carry so much pressure, do I have the right programs, you have the right systems? Am I doing the right things? Am I you know, am I setting up everything right, so that people will, will be impacted by the kingdom. And then Jesus says, all by itself, the kingdom, the kingdom does what you know, does what it does, which is which is quite, it's humbling, actually, john, on some level, that, that, you know, just, you know, don't over inflate, you know, the kingdom shouldn't be a place for your own ego, you know, look at all this that we did. And you see that in the disciples, don't you look, all these things that we did Jesus, he's like, well, well, you know, there's other stuff you can be grateful for, I don't worry too much about that. And which seems really harsh, you know, when, you know, even demons were cashed out, you know, in your name, the disciples say, and then I find myself drawn back to this parable, Jesus, like, it's just how the kingdom works, you know, this other stuff to be, you know, don't don't, you know, go blowing your own trumpet just because of, you know, what you're seeing happening. And I think in the contemporary church context, this is a hugely, hugely valid word for us in that sense that, that, you know, it makes me like this, if you know, me, I like to I like to push sometimes a little bit too far, perhaps. So that but you know, there's almost a level of which just even be careful of how much you steal. And I use that word, you know, tongue in cheek, how much you borrow, you know, other ideas, just because one person is doing something over there, be careful of assuming that's know the model that you should do, you know, we see this quite often don't we? Oh, they're, they're doing something great. I'm going to copy it. And there's almost a level of which we'll even be careful of listening to why somebody thinks their work for God has been successful. Because it might not always be as, as scientific as we suggest, you know, I've read a lot of books as to you have as well. It's almost like, well, if you do this, and you do this, and you do this, then you'll have success in your ministry, or then your church will grow. But Jesus seems to be kind of almost just this throwing this little thing in here not to say don't do the reading, not to say don't do the research, but also bear in mind that the kingdom of God is working by itself. I don't know. Is that is that true? No, no, I

John Andrews   34:04 
absolutely love it. And you know, I think you've got biblical precedent. I think you've got story after story that sort of hint into that. One of my favorites in it in a biblical sense, is is Cornelius in the book of Acts, you know, you've got their Roman cinterion. And clearly, clearly the kingdom has got to him. Clearly, something's going on in this man's life to the point where if you looked at him from the outside you think, I think, I think he's got some measure of faith here. There's something going on in his world to such an extent that that you know, God says, okay, your your, your prayers and your arms have come up before the Lord. This is a man who's clearly been touched by something responds immediately to the idea of reaching out to Peter. Peter eventually comes out of course, Peter, ironically, is struggling. With some of those, well, I'm not sure the seats should be scattered this far at this moment that, okay, so, and even begins, I mean, it's, it's incredible, he begins his sermon virtually by saying, I really shouldn't be here. You know, we know that God really, that this isn't really as, but but then he he clearly shows his own journey in the context of that where he's had this shocking revelation of a raise and eat, don't call unclean, but I've called clean and unclearly, we see there that the kingdom was at work before Peter ever got to it. So somewhere some high, the seed of this kingdom was growing in this man's heart and fumbly, long before anyone, on the record at least preached directly to him. And the fact that the whole family, the whole household respond almost in unison, and the Holy Spirit comes. So then agree means these guys are absolutely ready. This, this seed had had grown in them. But at this moment, the label, the label hadn't, hadn't been fixed. And I think that's happening all over the planet. David, I absolutely, I do not simply believe that, that just because there's a political border that says you cannot come here with this message that that message is not reaching into there, I don't just mean technology, I mean, the influence of the kingdom that's reaching across the earth, on growing all by itself. And, and, and that really challenges our ego. And it made me It got you got saved without me. You know, so it's, it's like the, I think, and I think that should fill us with joy, confidence, not not hopefully with apathy, but we should be as committed to scattering of that seed as much as possible, but not worry about how neat all of that is, and who gets to control it. And most of all, who gets the glory for it, I mean, it doesn't matter, as long as the seed gets spread.

David Harvey  37:08 
And there's also a sense in this in this passage of, of trusting that in your own life as well, because I am one of the recipients of the kingdom of God myself, right. So. So there's, there's also a level of which you're just turning the parable for a moment, you tweak that Kaleidoscope slightly, I think about the need to have like a plan for your life and the need to have a process for your life. And, you know, and your goals, and all of these things can have huge benefit for people like I, I understand that and, you know, don't want people thinking I'm throwing all of their hard work out. But there's also a point where you can have a plan and a goal and a system and then a pandemic happens, right? You know, or you lose your job or you get divorced or something, you know, your health fails you. And there's a sense in which our plans and process can really come to zero very, very quickly. It doesn't take much. And, you know, I think of my my first job outside of, you know, ministry was a really, really tough and difficult situation that for many of the times I find myself thinking, you know, this was a mistake to do this. It led to then an even harder sort of period of time where I had to kind of not do what I felt I was called to do. Now 20 years later, I look back and realize, Wow, there was a lot going on in there. God was was, you know, was growing things in me. And it was happening, even though I would say the soil didn't appear that great. I didn't understand what was going on. You know, I met somebody during that that period of my life that became 15 years later, a key component in in God bringing me into a fruitful period of my own ministry. And I didn't know that for 15 years that that that person that I met was going to was going to do that. So I also sometimes turn this parable around into my own life and just be saying to myself, David, don't be too dismissive of your context. You know, the coach too bad. I love even the light. I love even the lighting judges, let me make sure that I could. It's this is word weather, right? Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets talked about dismissive, right? It's actually, you know what, even the days the farmer stays in bed all day. And is a really bad farmer. The seed is still growing, you know. And, and so there's a level of, of I would want to always encourage people to know, like, Don't Don't assume that just because you've gone through a bad period or your through, I suppose, a dry spell or something like that. That doesn't mean that God's been working because I have consistently john time and time again in my life, both my own life and people that I meet. retrospectively, you know, and so much of our story is told backwards, isn't it we retrospectively people point at those dark points in their life and realize, man, God was really doing something there. There was something growing in me there at the time. It was miserable. But and you must have met

John Andrews   40:17 
similar to totally. And I think it's, you know that there are some things are only learned by looking back. I mean, there's no question about that. And, again, that's a hard one for us humans, because we're trying to analyze everything, as we're doing it, try to understand everything is we're living it and trying to make sense of stuff that sometimes we cannot make sense of. And yet when we are by faith, I think it needs as much faith sometimes to look back as it does to move forward to look forward. I think when we look back by faith, we're able to see what God was at work in this or the kingdom was happening here. Or actually, I was in a place where I thought I had no influence whatsoever. And the and the seed was growing all by itself, it was working. Sometimes, because of me, sometimes in spite of me, and sometimes, without me ever even understanding what was going on. And I think it's absolutely correct, that there's this relentlessness to this process, there is not only a confidence that this works, whether we understand it or not, but there is there is a sense in which there's a relentless nature to this idea, this is just going to keep going, this is going to keep pushing, these plants are going to keep pushing through, in order to get to the sunlight, the seeds are going to grow. Even though it may take a while or even though it may look impossible, this is going to happen. And that fills me with supreme confidence in both a personal understanding of my own journey providentially in terms of the grace and goodness of God, but also, I think stuff that I've just, I have no control over and no influence over. But we've got to believe there's a deposit of righteousness, a deposit of the kingdom. And this thing grows, drop it drop the east end of the dough and see what happens. And, you know, if if one bit of yeast can transform kilos of dough, then then what could the kingdom of heaven do? If we give it a chance?

David Harvey  42:18 
Yeah, no, it's it's it's beautiful, john, isn't it really,

John Andrews   42:22 
I think I think that's sort of carried on and a mustard seed stuff. I think in the mustard seed. You're getting, you know, whatever the science of it today and what we know in the context of Jesus's world, they would have just understood small seed grows into something quite relentless and big. And again, you're getting and you've touched on this already, I think you're getting this beautiful sense of something from less to greater, not just bigger, but greater. I think the emphasis there is, is not just this group's big, I think the emphasis is screws, great. I think that's the sort of analogy behind it from small to bake. And from the sense of being in conspicuous, like nothing too influential. I just, I love that. I love that idea. And I think the mustard seed is this almost climactic little parable that goes on, by the way, yet the seed does grow, the farmer doesn't know how it works, and what looks really small, and innocuous, you know, in conspicuous and almost irrelevant and powerless, becomes great, it becomes strong, it becomes influential, and it impacts and changes its world. Whatever we think of that change, whether we want that change or not, this change will come because this this kingdom is moving relentlessly from small to big, and from in conspicuous to influence.

David Harvey  43:52 
And it's interesting how much then that echoes what Jesus, what Jesus is saying, echoes what we see in in Jesus's scriptures in the Old Testaments of their time. And there's a few nuances in here, which I think, again, speak to that tendency, we have the want things a different way. I I quote, and Anne Lamott all the time, john, to the extent that I must have said it to everybody I know at least two or three times but one of Alan Watts great quotes is where she says you can tell that you've made God in your own image, when God hates all the same. And, and there's always this tension that Jesus is thinking is brilliant, isn't it? And and Jesus is fighting that so often in his ministry, and we are fighting that so often in the world and in our own lives as well. That the it's actually we can conceptualize, we know that we're not supposed to say this, but we can conceptualize that God loves me. What we really struggle to conceptualize is the garden loves that neighbor that we don't like, just as much, you know, and that really kind of causes his troubles. And so it's interesting to me that there appears to be in this passage, just a few allusions to, I think what would be familiar pieces of Scripture to, to Jesus sees listeners. And so work them just backwards for a second here, this this mustard tree, your parable, I don't know if you hear it, john, but I hear these zekiel References floating around in there is equal chapter 17 verse 23, let me read it just here on the mountain, and the mountain height of Israel, I will plant that I will plant that it may bear branches and produce fruit and become a noble cedar and under it will dwell every kind of bird in the shade of its branches. birds have every sort of nest and all the trees of the field will know that I am the Lord. So it's hard for me, john not to feel that resonance that you know, you've got this biblically literate audience. I think that's you know, we've we've said that so far in this series, I think it's okay to lean into that when the when you see these biblical allusions, people are picking up on this to go, I know this, I've heard this. And so there's this idea that Jesus has just taken his vision of this tiny seed, he's replaced a cedar, which we know is going to be big with a tiny mustard seed. But the net result is, you know, is this is this image of what God's going to do in the world that actually, it's almost as if Jesus is saying, Oh, this is doing what you've always known that God's going to do, it's just that maybe you forgot it, or you're trying to exclude people from it, you want certain types of bird here. And this, this, every kind of bird language of Ezekiel, to me seems to be very specific, but controversial, that Jesus is no, like, we love that concept. You know, we, we love the concept that God can save everybody, we love that God so loved the world. But then, when certain types, you know, when it turns out to be, you know, all the all the dropouts and dead beats and, and sinners, all of a sudden becomes a little less comfortable that we're not so on board with this every kind of bird under this tree. So let's start, let's start shooting some of these birds away. So so This, to me, Jesus seems to be kind of resonating something in there. I

John Andrews   47:26 
don't know, if I know a lot of that. I mean, you know, for me, again, it it leans into just the whole trajectory of of the scripture where God's plan at a covenant, the level, you know, starts with one man calls a night, and he says to that one man, I will make you, you know, a blessing to the nations of the world. And, of course, we as followers of Jesus would follow the beautiful trajectory of that, that Abraham's seed is Christ Himself. And, you know, I love the idea that Jesus stands here with these beautiful parables of this small degree, it this, this sort of parently weak to something strong and something that seems inconspicuously influential, and, and without, without hopefully getting stoned at dawn for what I'm about to say, Jesus Himself fits that bill, he, he doesn't look like the Messiah. He doesn't look like the hero, he isn't coming in the package, we expected him to come in, he doesn't break the bruised reed or snuff out the smoldering wick. He's not john the baptist said, He's not what I expected. And Jesus is, is almost the embodiment of that very illusion that you've referenced in terms of the community of the kingdom of God, but also what God has been doing, from the very beginning of time he depicts one and makes it a family makes it a tribe, makes it a nation, makes it a family of nations. And I think Jesus Himself is the embodiment of this. Here I am one person alone small, but out of me will come something that literally will touch the nations of the world. And so I love all of that. I, I moved I and I'm deeply deeply moved by something that doesn't look like it should work. But it works. It's it's the antithesis of what Rome was Rome was this juggernaut this humongous Empire. I mean, I've had the privilege of visiting Rome some of your some of our listeners. Well, I mean, And you stand in the ruins of Rome, old Rome and you think, Wow, even the ruins are impressive, let alone what it must have been like. I've stood at the Arch of Titus, that celebrates the cataclysmic destruction of Jerusalem, an 87 day. And yet, Jesus stands when he goes, you see this great kingdom, this great empire, it will turn to dust. But this mustard seed will keep growing and keep growing, it will oat who could have predicted that the revolution Jesus was beginning in this mustard seed would last the Roman Empire, who could have predicted that. And yet, that's exactly what it does. And it doesn't do it through the CM tactics of the Empire. Oh, my goodness, how the church has learned about that over the years. But it does it by simply getting scattered, getting itself planted in communities

David Harvey  50:59 
and growing, there's, there's a brilliant line in one. It's just come to me as you're talking john, and I can't remember the name. It was either Henry Chadwick or Edward Gibbon. And I can't remember which it was, it may even be neither of them. This is great line where he's recounting the trial of Paul or he's already you know, he's knowing that some Paul probably, you know, is, you know, is executed under the Nero persecution and his great line where he says, little did Nero know, because near his, his Nero's, you know, concern for this dog, Paul? And he says, and he's Little did he know that a day was coming, that people would call their sons Paul and their dogs Nero.

John Andrews   51:42 
That's too good.

David Harvey  51:45 
But I think that you're absolutely you know, right. When you when you talk about that, those those resonances of you know, of, of Rome, like, let me say it like this, we know how Rome works, you know, and Rome can be, you know, Rome can be any Empire, you know, be it a government be an organization, you know, we can see how they work, their power is, their power is visible and obvious to us. Nobody is confused about why Amazon's the biggest company in the world, you know, nobody's nobody's confused as to why the United States is the greatest superpower in world history. This all makes sense to us. what's confusing is how the cross works, you know? And then there's this beautiful sense in this, you know, and, and the, the farmer doesn't even know how, you know, it's like obvious power is probably the power that should be trouble us a little bit because, because it's not the power that's lined up with the kingdom, there should be a sense of how this works. And there's just so just pushing into then that second resonance, which I think trips off this is is the is the Isaiah 40 illusion now as I 40 is a hugely important passage for Israel. But I think it's Tom Wright that points out the illusion. So he pointed that there were I saw it for the first time, Jesus opens with, this is what the kingdom of God is like. And Tom says it's difficult to ask something like that to a Jewish audience. When Isaiah 40 is such a popular text Isaiah 48. Teen to whom then will you like and God, right? So so so Tom sees this resonance between this idea of what is the kingdom of God like and Isaiah, then he rolls out this slightly surprising notion of God, what are you going to compare God to? What have you got? Isaiah says, Where are you going? Okay, let's do some comparison of God, that idol says, Is it gonna? Are you gonna compare it to that idol? Well, you know, your workman makes it. And a goldsmith comes along, and he overlays it with gold and then catch up with chains, you know, and of silver, and then, and then somebody else has chosen the mulberry wood, and we've brought in an artisan who's going to, you'll carve it in such a way that it doesn't fall down. And, and then you get this beautiful Isaiah 40, verse 21. But have you not known and Have you not heard? And has it not been told to you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers. This incredible moment, you know, of Isaiah saying, the best thing you can compare the Lord God to is an idol, which is made by a multiplicity of people from just stuff that we found laying around on the earth. And you're going to compare that to the God who sits over it all, you know. And so Isaiah then rolls people into this new understanding of God. And so Tom Wright points out that there's an illusion here for us, if we'll see it, the Jesus then come in and go, what will we compare the kingdom of God like? Well, you can choose to compare it to a whole host of stuff that we all can see and think we make sense of, but it doesn't make sense to us because it's different. It's coming from elsewhere. It's been it's been implanted into our Earth, but it Not all of our earth for one of a better tournament. And I find that hugely encouraging that, at some level, I do have to sit back and relax. Because this is this, you know, it's like a very small juggernaut at the minute, but it's a juggernaut coming, you know, this, these big trees are coming this, you know. And also, john, I'm just gonna squeeze in because I did say there was two Greek words I loved in here, I should point I should point out the second one, before people complain later and say, wait a minute, that was to I just love the fact that whether he sleeps or gets up, the Greek word there behind gets up is the same word that the pronounce about Jesus, after he has left the tomb, he has been raised. So whether he, whether he sleeps or is raised, that I can't help but think there's a little resurrection, who wants to this as well, that you know that that whole Jesus says a grain of the seed seed is planted into the ground and dies and brings forth something else. There's almost this allusion to the change that God is bringing, and it starts, you know, in the kingdom, which is present, but it becomes visible in the resurrection. No, I

John Andrews   56:15 
love that. I love that. And I think of course that you know that the resurrection is ultimately the the platform, the reality, the moment that changes everything, it it, it changes the way we see everything. If if we're prepared to accept that, of course, if we are prepared to accept the idea that Jesus rises from the dead and is attested to be the Son of God through that, then everything reading backwards and forwards is transformed by that reading and the kingdom he then represents and the kingdom he brought. Again, I think a lot of dots Connect. A lot of a lot of things fall into line on the basis of that, that understanding. So yeah, it's a beautiful new answer to it's a beautiful idea at the heart of it. Jesus Himself embodies this idea of planted and, and resurrected, brought to what what went into the ground look like one thing, what comes out of the ground looks something completely different and glorious, and magnificent and unstoppable.

David Harvey  57:22 
I love that what went into the ground looked like one thing and what came out, looked like another thing what a What a great thought, john, this this parable, we said, Hey, this is a nice little short parable, let's have a discussion about I feel like it could have been a series all by.

John Andrews   57:38 
Absolutely. But isn't it isn't that? Isn't that what what I think Jesus is digging into I think, I think you're getting the layers. And these things that are just magnificent are not just little stories strung together, or little random ideas that this is a genius communicator, who knows exactly what he's doing in order to get the attention of those who are hearing who are leaning into this, and he's putting the bread crumbs or, or let's use the another seed on the ground and we're just following the seed. We're following the breadcrumbs. And you go, Wow, and the deeper you go into it, the more while you're going. It's listening

David Harvey  58:17 
carefully to what you hear, I think is what Jesus said. Alright, that's it for now. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode from our lunch series on parables. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something we said you can reach out to us on podcast to text comm or by liking and following the to text podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you did enjoy what we had to say today, we'd love it if you left a review or a comment where you're listening from and if you really enjoyed it, why don't you share it with a friend? Was that is it for now we're back tomorrow with another parable for all of you. But until then, goodbye