Water Walking | Miracles 4

In which John and David talk about Jesus (and Peter) walking on water. The miracle of Jesus walking on water is often appreciated as an event, but what does it teach us? Does it give us insight in to who Jesus is, and also how he helped his disciples grow?

• Click Here to read the text from Matthew 14:22-36. 

Episode Outline

• 1:05 - Matthew 14
• 6:40 - Water Mythology
• 13:38 - Exodus Resonances
• 19:24 - Take Heart “I Am”
• 29:14 - The Importance of Hearing
• 35:04 - Peter the Rock
• 46:27 - Hearing or Seeing
• 50:33 - Little Faith
• 55:48 - The Relatable Peter
• 1:00:46 - Fear and Humiliation are Bad Teachers

The next episode of Two Texts will be on Tuesday July 20. 

Episode 21 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 4

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Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Chapters

• 1:05 Matthew 14
• 6:40 Water Mythology
• 13:38 Exodus Resonances
• 19:24 Take Heart “I Am”
• 29:14 The Importance of Hearing
• 35:04 Peter the Rock
• 46:27 Hearing or Seeing
• 50:33 Little Faith
• 55:48 The Relatable Peter
• 1:00:46 Fear and Humiliation are Bad Teachers

Transcript

This Transcript is Auto Generated by Descript.com

DH Intro: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm David Harvey and I'm here with John Andrews and this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries. I hear every two weeks talking about two different texts  from the Bible. This is our second season. It's about the miracles of Jesus. And this is episode four. 

And it's called. Water. Walking.  

David: [00:00:34] Okay, John. So we talked about the feeding of the 5,000. That story continues. So our second text for this week , is the immediately following story that happens as if, as if one miracle in a day. Isn't enough. The story of the feeding of 5,000 follows  the story that you're going to read for us just now in Matthew chapter 14, and it begins in verse 22. 

John: [00:01:05] Yeah immediately. Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side while he dismissed the crowd. After he had dismissed them. He went up on a mountainside by himself to pray when evening came, he was there alone, but the boat was already a considerable distance from land buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.

During the fourth watch of the night, that's somewhere between three and 6:00 AM in the morning. Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. It's a ghost. They said and cried out in fear. But Jesus immediately said to them, take courage.

It is, I don't be afraid. Lord, if it's you, Peter replied, tell me to come to you on the water. Come Jesus said, then Peter got donut of the boat, walked on the water and came towards Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and beginning to sink, cried out. Lord, see of me. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him you of little fear.

He said, why did you date? And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died dying. Then those who work in the boat worshiped him saying truly you are the son of God. When they had crossed over, they landed, it can ask for it. And when the men of that place recognized Jesus, they sent word to all the surrounding country.

People brought all their sick to him and begged him to let the sick, just touch the edge of his cloak and all who touched him were healed. Wow,

David: [00:03:00] it's it's it's an intense day for the disciples. 

John: [00:03:05] absolutely is absolutely. Is.

David: [00:03:08] They have, they have a lot going on.  So this is, it's an interesting turn, isn't it? Because we've had the feeding of the 5,000, this, this Very public miracle, which is, which is got so much resonance to stuff that's going on in the old Testament. Moseys there's abundance and scarcity,  and then we have this very private miracle that that might actually  be a little more complex to see what's actually going on here.

Like what, what do you make of a miracle like this? Cause it, it seems. Well, it's sort of random at some level, 

it's like, oh look, there's, Jesus is walking on the water. And there's almost a sense, particularly in Mark's gospel  that well, I mean, mark, mark literally says it and he meant to pass them by

John: [00:03:56] Very

David: [00:03:57] It's just, he's trying to walk past. And it's only when the disciples start having a sort of meltdown that Jesus intervenes, I mean, what do you make of a miracle like this, Johnny?

John: [00:04:07] Yeah, I think it's a great reflection, David, and I think the sort of private nature of this and can I say hope my listeners don't sort of through things with their computer when they say this, it almost 

David: [00:04:21] Or through their phone out of the car, 

John: [00:04:23] Yeah, yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. But it almost seems, can I say pointless?

David: [00:04:28] huh? 

John: [00:04:29] I suppose it's your, it's your term of random? So we totally get why he does what he does with the 5,000. This sort of is something that seems a little bit random and at first we're going well, well, what's the point of that? But of course I think it is. Perhaps leaning into something that Jesus wants his disciples to get an understand and grab.

And of course we, , we get a little bit of that when Jesus gets back into the boat and the wind days down, and it says, they see truly you are the son of God. So there's something maybe being revealed here to them in a dramatic way that is about helping them to start connect some of the dots. So, so what you've just experienced with the feeding of the 5,000 plus.

It is, is a miracle, but there's a greater point to this miracle. There's a greater journey to this. This is, this is not just about, helping people in a, in a wilderness. This has no boat, what I am here to actually achieve. And, and perhaps actually Jesus is revealing something of himself specifically and uniquely to this core group, we assume the 12 are in the boat.

I mean, we were just making the assumption, they're all in that boat. So, so there's something they're getting to see, which no one else is getting to see. 

David: [00:06:00] Okay. 

John: [00:06:00] And I think when you have a situation where only a certain group of people are getting to see something, then maybe there's a, there's a reason for that.

So Jesus is, transfigured a bit with Moses and Elijah there and only three disciples get to see. Okay, well, what what's going on there? So, so I think, I think it's probably this, this almost private demonstration of his, his power and glory is for their eyes only at this stage, maybe to help them connect some dots that the previous miracle have created.

David: [00:06:40] It's interesting that  we talked about this in the last episode that Jesus is in a place of grief. So his, his cousin has been executed. He's found that out, in the morning, he's then still found a place of compassion. And he's even been trying to get to a quiet place to pray the crowd, follow him, his compassion, overwhelms his need for a quiet space, but then he does manage to get himself alone and up the moment in by himself.

So, so he is coming from a slightly different perspective. Now you see this with Jesus and a few, quite a few occasions, doesn't he? That Jesus wants to be. He wants to be somewhere else to be with God, too, to get some alone prayer time. There's probably a whole discipleship lesson for us there. I remind if Jesus needs a loan space to pray, we probably do as well.

And . I think it's worth mentioning that within the  mythology of Israel, the water's not a place that is overly comfortable . So the water is the place of chaos, even in the Genesis story , the the deep is this kind of, so you don't, you don't see a lot of water skiing and Jesus these days.

So fishermen are, are brave people. They're the people that go out and, and battle the seas battle, the deep and the chaos. And there's a lot of you see it not, you don't see it so much in scripture, but you definitely see, although is there in some of the old Testament stuff, you definitely see it in the contemporary texts, that there was a bit of fear around the water.

The water was a scary place. So being in the water at night, and I don't really know that I want to do that. And, and so then a stormy waters is even more scary than because you're now reading this in terms of the mythology that you've grown up with stormy Watchers. It's not just, oh, these are big waves, but something going on here and you see this at a few points Throughout the gospels. I think that that Jesus has control over the,  the elements, as we would say, in his control over the seas. And the storms is something that, that makes the disciples draw connections to who Jesus is. Even at the end of this story, the fact that when Jesus gets into the boat with them, things calm down, like, whoa, who is this?

Because,  because he's not simply calming nature in the mind of the disciples.

Now he's calming the, evil forces of the cosmos. And I don't want it to sound too weird, John. So forgive me if it is sounding that, but there's extra levels going on as to what they're seeing in a story like this. Does that make sense? 

John: [00:09:12] Yeah, totally does totally does. And I, I would concur that, that there would be a, a backstory to this, that again Matthew's audience would understand and, and see some of the implications and ramifications of that. Of course, it's probably a sideways step, but it's, it's worth a mention. Of course it w when I, when I think of the, of stormy waters and boats, my mind immediately goes to the prophet, Jonah, so you've got an incredible story there of someone trying to escape the purposes of God.

And it's the Lord that sends the storm. It's the Lord who. Creates if you lake or sends the grit fee, its the Lord who then calms the storm when Jonah is swallowed by the great fish. And of course you have this Joel is imagery of descending into the depths of the deep this, this watery grieve, whether literal or metaphorical.

And this sort of sense that this turbulence is all about wrestling with God's purpose, God's identity, God's desire and human autonomy. And, and all of those things are going on. It is it's probably a stretch, but I think  that this is a safe space to do a few weeks stretches.

Without pushing heresy, but of course they are on their way to a Gentile arena. They are underway to the Knesset. This will ultimately be the arena of the 10 cities that the 10 Greek that the capitalists. So there's interesting that you've got a nuance of there they're making their way to somewhere. And as they're doing that, there is this incredible demonstration of who Jesus is in the context of this.

And not only the comment of the storm, but the ability to enable others to engage with him in that store. So yeah, I, I wouldn't want to push that too far. I wouldn't necessarily preach that on a Sunday morning, but, but for me, again, as we've seen there is this there's often these little pop-ups these little threads and some of those threads lead to something and some of those threads may not, but it leans into your idea of discomfort around the world.

David: [00:11:25] Yes. This, this kind of cosmic chaos of, of the water is, I think is expressed in, oh, it's a ghost, they, they immediately assume that there's some sort of spiritual apparition going on here  it's it's like, you go to Disneyland  into the haunted house and, and even, if you don't believe in ghosts and things like that, you've grown up with ghost stories and haunted house stories, and you create the right environments for that.

And it all gets a little spooky. Doesn't it? So imagine the disciples they're haunted house and ghost stories are all told about the sea. So they find themselves in the sea at night. It just all starts to feel a little bit spooky 

and so, so the it's a ghost kind of gives us this insight into almost the mythological world of the disciples and why they draw those lines and beautifully how Jesus is going to redraw all of those 

lines. 

John: [00:12:16] And I think too, it's remembering these boys are probably pretty war 

. I mean, they've had a long day they hope to get rid of the crowed which may have lent into the fact not only, that we not have enough food and bread, but actually were whacked.

And it would be great to get rid of this cried. Not only does Jesus keep the crowd, but he feeds the crowd. So that's, I mean, that's gonna to take a while to do all of that. So we're probably no, well into late evening when they're getting into this boat and it is between three and six o'clock in the morning when this.

So, so these boys are, these parts are probably pretty tired as well. You've got, you've got physical fatigue kicking in, probably some of them literally waking up from asleep. When winter, when they hear the shading and you've got, the uncertainty of the storm. And, if, if they're in the standard first century fishing boat that we think they were in th th the fishermen and the group mate, fairly comfortable with that experience.

But I wouldn't have been, I'd have been looking right worse, whereas the life preservers boys. And and when do we get to the other end? So there's a lot going on. There's a lot emotionally, that's going on a lot spirits. Selena's going on. There's some cultural stuff that's feeding into their fears and their anxieties.

And then Jesus comes walking across the water in the midst of this windy stormy moment that it is quite dramatic, really, as a demonstrator.

David: [00:13:38] I'm just reflecting back on our resonancies and all of this. We've had the feeding of the 5,000. So we've had bread in the day assert like moseys I was thinking about Psalm 77, your way was through the sea, your path through mighty waters, your footsteps were unseen.

The wa the, the path through the sea, when the Israelites were exiting, Egypt is such an important story in the, in the narrative of Israel and the narrative of, of Jesus, these people you can't help but wonder, oh, okay. There's a little bit, we've got, we've had a feeding in the desert miracle, and now we've got a water related miracle going on as well.

This could also be the sort of new Moses imagery coming up a little bit, a little bit in all of 

this.

John: [00:14:23] Yeah. And of course, what a way to supersede Moses, Moses by God's grace and power open the way through the sea, Jesus walks on the sea. And, and, again, you, you are, you are looking at something that, that if you're, if you're wanting to grab the threads of Moses within the Matthew tax, then here is another nudge towards this supremacy over the elements in order to get God's people to where they need to go.

And I, I, again, I think that that potentially is there as a thought process, as well as the, just the incredible astounding miracle that I think that nuance is potentially there.

David: [00:15:09] So w just changing it up for a little bit, it strikes me that a resonance in the. Story. And I'm curious as to where you would want to go with this. There's a lot of talk about fear. So I just was looking, they're in this context, the winds against them, they see him walking on the sea seas, terrified it's a ghost. They cry out in fear. And then you, you get Peter's, freakness th th there's this strong, fear resonance in, in this text. And, in the, in that perhaps in the absence of Jesus or his any, even in the presence of Jesus, this is the emotion that's driving.

That's driving this story a little bit. Isn't it? 

John: [00:15:50] Mm. Yeah, definitely there. And I think, again, we're, we're entering into the human experience of these disciples. So, so even being around Jesus, even being with Jesus, they're still exposed to the challenges of the every day life in which they're living. And no, no, no. Protected from that, from the point that they're not touched by it, but our, our being then brought into an experience where, how do I address those fears?

What, what is the answer to those fears? How do we overcome those fears in the midst of that? And if our listeners can remember in our. Previous texts. When we looked at the feeding of the 5,000 plus, we talked about God being enough, that he is enough in our need that he can provide our need. Well, this thing's the end of the idea that he is enough in our fear, he's enough in our weakness, in our vulnerability.

So there's nothing that makes humans feel vulnerable, like being in a situation where they are completely out of control, where they have no control. I mean like probably many of our listeners I I've been on planes that have hit turbulence. I remember being on one plan that hits such powerful turbulence that I remember holding a glass of juice on as the plan had a pocket of turbulence.

That was so severe, no word of exaggeration. My, my body, my cup went down the way with the plugin on my juice stared in the air. It descended so quickly. It went down so fast that my juice and my ice remained in the air. And of course, eventually what goes up, must come down. And I, my juice ended up on, on my tray mostly.

Now I want to say, there you are a human with all your abilities and all your dreams and all your desires. And you're sitting on a plane that is in the middle of turbulence and you cannot do a single thing about that. I mean, all you can do is sit there with your seatbelt on praying to Jesus that this thing does not go down.

And the sense of vulnerability within that. That's not a nice feeling for humans, for humans to feel. Vulnerable for humans to feel totally exposed and weak either in the midst of a literal storm or a, or a storm of another kind, we'll expose our frailty. So just as the, the, the frailty of the Crow does exposed in its hunger.

Here they are. They've been so preoccupied by following Jesus. They forgotten that they're hungry. They've forgotten that the shops have closed and that there's no way we're all going to get dinner tonight or supper tonight. And yet Jesus says I am enough. And here we have a group of his disciples, fading, the waves, fading, the wind fading, their fear fighting their vulnerability.

And he, it's just so beautiful. He says immediately, I mean, I think there's three or four references to the word immediately in that little passage immediately, he says to them it's I, tick courage. It is, I don't be afraid. So once he hears him say, it's a ghost, he goes immediately.

He responds to their vulnerability and their weaknesses. Don't be afraid. It's me. I'm enough for you even in the storm. And I think that's absolutely beautiful, beautiful idea there.

David: [00:19:24] let's just hang around in that for a moment. So a lot of translations have something like take heart. It is, I have no fear at Darcell the Greek, actually be cheerful, take heart, be cheerful, have courage. I just think it's worth mentioning though that what Jesus says, often gets translated as it is.

I, but I just want to push into that a little bit more than that because, because they all keep it's, it's quite interesting actually to, to look. In, in the Greek of this all three authors. So this appears in Matthew, mark, and John, this story does right. So, so Luke skips this one John, sorry about that.

But

John: [00:20:08] It's 

David: [00:20:08] whatever reason, it goes back to what we were saying in the last episode, for whatever reason, Luke goes, man, I'm not going to tell that story. So we had enough?

excitement for one day. And, and I don't mean that irreverently Jade just is, it's so fascinating about like, well, why would you drop a story like this?

But interestingly all, even though if you actually look across a lot of English translations, the sentence of Jesus, bizarrely enough, across the three different gospels gets translated average slightly differently. I mean, very marginally. But in the Greek, it's the, exactly the same words across across all, all of the versions are Matthew mark.

Luke is the same thing. And the word that Jesus uses. Where it says it is. I is Agel Amy. Which is, which literally means I, I am it's, it's an emphatic sense of, I am. So Amy in Greek means I am. So it's just the verb to be, I am. But when you add EGL, which is the, the, the pronoun I, you get EGL image, which it's a really emphatic sense of.

I am. So he doesn't say, I feel like the translators don't they miss something here for us, because I want to talk about the pattern as to what happens next in a moment, but take heart. It is, I actually, what you get is take heart. I am. And now I think a lot of our readers will go, whoa, wait, wait a minute.

I think, and very, my we're riffing heavy over Matthew 14 on.

Moses similarities. Surely, surely there's some sort of connection going on, here between God come into Moses and say, Who shall I see Moses? He says, well, well, well, who am I gonna tell? What's your name, right? If I'm going to go and tell the if we're going to tell him, tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go free, what's your name?

And what you get is tell him I am sent you. And of course it's worth noticing that I'm mentioning that in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, whenever this phrase I am is used as, as the name of God at some level, it, they, they always use this phrase. EGL Amy. So it's always the emphatic I am.

And now another little piece just to help our listeners in John's gospel. All of the, I am sayings of Jesus. I am the bread of life. I am the good shepherd. I am the way the truth of life are also EGL Amy. And when Jesus is facing up to angry code in John seven, who are a little bit uncertain, but things he's saying, and Jesus says before Abraham was.

I am. He says before Abraham was Eagle Aimee and they pick up rocks and start trying to throw them at him because their interpretation is by saying, Amy, you have aligned yourself with, you have made yourself like God. Which of course for many Christian readers, you're going to be sit quite comfortably with that.

Right. So all of that thrown up into the air, which is a bit messy to me, changes what Jesus is doing here. So he comes out to them and they're like, oh my goodness, it's a ghost. And immediately Jesus says, take courage. I am the very opposite of a ghost. It's stunning. Isn't it? 

John: [00:23:16] Oh, it's breathtaking. It's breathtaking. And, and it could be that, I mean, who knows it could be, the translators are a little bit nervous about driving that, that translation, that, that actually, well, it, it is clearly saying it's just me, but if, if we're, and this, I suppose, is the difficulty a translator faces, do we, do we simply translate the literalism of the text.

This is how you would write that phrase. If you were like translating it into good English or do we try to understand the context of the translation and therefore Jesus may have been seen something else. And I think that's a really tricky tension for them. Isn't it? We're, we're actually a literal translation would be, yeah.

That's fine. That sort of reads well at probably if you read any of the paraphrases on it, you would get that idea. I'd be shocked if, and if the pushback on that. But of course, if we're leaning into Moses in the context, then for him to say, take courage, I IRM. And of course that absolutely seems to lean into the disciples conclusion.

Truly, truly you are the son of God. They are making the link that insane. I am. This is not blasphemous that actually, he we've just seen a demonstration that he is the IRM, because he's done something that not even Moses was able to do in terms of walking on the water. So, so you, so you're getting, I certainly think there's mileage in that.

I, I, in fact, I was just reading it this morning in my daily devotions, David, where Jesus into Johanna and text is in the guard. The  mall, but come to get him. And he says, who are you looking for? Jesus of Nazareth. And he goes, I am, Hey, and they all fall down, they all fall over.

So something you go, whoa, what what's just going on there. So something dynamic and powerful is associated with the idea of IRM when Jesus is using it in, in his as it were designated sense, not just the grammatical sense, but he's, he's using this as part of the connectedness to the I am who sent Moses to the IOM who called the Abraham to the I M who is bread and vain.

And later. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's my goodness or something. So, so you've got an eye arm here in the midst of a calming storm walking on the water and of course, right in the middle of it, this gorgeous, beautiful, intimate story of saving Peter's life as well. It's all going on in the context of I am.

David: [00:26:03] And there's a couple of things that are worth mentioning that when you dig into John's gospel as a reader, he is fundamentally drawing these parallels for you. He is making, I am statements all over the place because he wants you to see that it is Jesus.

The emphatic it's it's, I am not anything else, so I am the bread of life. It was often, a lot of the, I am sayings relate to beliefs about the Bible, actually I'm in Jesus. He's time reliefs about the Torah. Your word is a lamp unto my feet. And Jesus comes in and says, actually, no, the light of the world.

He's he's DRI drawing the boundaries again and pulling it all back into himself. And I think it's worth mentioning as well, that in the Greek translations of the old Testament, the, I am language was used in a lot of contexts to mark off God's name. So it's, it's hard to imagine. And because in more normal day-to-day language, you wouldn't see if, if, if, if you walked out into the field in Jesus's day and said, who's here to play football, people are not going to put their hand up and go Eggo Amy, they're going to put their hand up and go Amy.

I am. Right. So, so the, the, the, the, the emphatic sense of it seems to be drawing this parallel towards the name of God. And that's why I think that's quite interesting. And there's so much that you could see it, but the, I am statements. Hmm.

And I think we're, again, going to have, to probably spend a series at some point in talking about John's I am statements because they are so good aren't 

they? 

John: [00:27:37] please. Oh 

David: [00:27:38] But notice the transition. If you actually read this, I didn't know that this is like we're reading, miracle stories and trying to read them normally. Right. But they see him walking on the sea. They're terrified. It's a ghost. They say, cause they cry out in fear immediately. He says I am and Peter answers him, Lord.

Okay. So again, Lord.

is one of the Greek cords that used to define the name of God as well, in that sense. But Peter answers, Lord, if it is you bid me to come out onto the water. So you've got to somehow relate in the storytelling. How do we get. Afraid of the ghost too. I'm going to come and walk on the water too.

And I'd suggest that the I am is the catalyst for this change. This is, God is in this space. God is here. Did this, 

John: [00:28:34] Oh, 

David: [00:28:34] you resonate with that? 

John: [00:28:35] 100%. It, I think it will help. So many of our listeners so much because it does, the gear change in the middle of the story is colossal, right? We've gone from we're terrified. We're all going to die. It's a ghost too. Any chance I can get it on the boat and walk on the water with you in the middle of a story.

I mean, that does not, it just does not make sense. And the only thing that makes someone like Peter, remember a seasoned fishermen get out of the boat is he's heard something. He hasn't just seen something because they thought it was a gold. 

David: [00:29:13] Yes. 

John: [00:29:14] what, what flips at what flips them from a scene is the hearing.

And he hears something to goes, the IRM is on the water and, and this regulatory moment, this lean in moment where he has heard something, he's heard something that saying to him now get out of the boat. And, and Lord, if that is you bid me come and, and in his language, he may have probably used add-on I, I dunno call me out of this, out of this boat on Jesus says come, no, I keep it doesn't make sense that, I know it's Jesus saying it, but.

No, one's gonna get out of the pool on the basis of just come on less. They've heard something else. 

David: [00:30:07] Yes. 

John: [00:30:08] It's not it's it's not getting out of the boat. I think on the basis of the word com he's getting out of the boat on the best of biome. I think 

that's the, I think that's the $64 million moment. Now. I love the idea of, of Peter walking on the word, calm I've preached on that.

I think it, I think it preaches. I think it works that the, that the word of Jesus come becomes the solid rock on which he star. I mean, I love all that and I think that lives there and that's definitely, it has may leach, but I think what causes Peter to go Lord of a chew is, is the statement. I am.

David: [00:30:50] It it's it's It's so, 

John: [00:30:53] It's powerful. It will, it, it flips the story. And I think if our listeners can get the eye arm in the middle of this, it completely transforms the story. And then it moves from what felt like an hope. Our listeners didn't weren't defended by certainly my language. It felt, it felt like suddenly felt almost random and a bit pointless to, ah, that's the point right there.

That's the point?

David: [00:31:22] And that, and that's why I think it's worth slowing down and not just reducing this to oh, look, Jesus can walk on.

water. Isn't Jesus. Cool. And, and some, I've heard  this miracle so often referred to in that sort of level, that, that, that we almost unintentionally make it appear simply a magic trick and where there's actually something profound.

And even the discipleship language here, look at, Peter's like spend some time as a, as a reader of the text, Lord, if. If it's you if it's you bid me come right. Like what a, what a phenomenal confession from pizza at that point, that to, to, in the midst of all of the chaos, that's going around him in the storm.

And I think it's Stanley Hauerwas in his commentary on.

Matthew. He, he sorta makes this point that, that pizza then later becomes the rock of the church. Right? So, upon this rock, I'll build my church. Jesus says, so, so however of is, so when we read this text and he's also a message to the church, the church,  for us as the people of God, the call is to say, Lord, if it's you bid me, come, there's a, there's the invitation from us to the Lord that we might join him far from the shore.

It's quite, it's quite something, isn't 

John: [00:32:44] All of that. And I think I love the link and even the confession of Peter, which, which we bump into a couple of chapters later in Matthew, Matthew 16, you are the Christ, the son of the living. God. No. 

David: [00:32:58] Yeah. 

John: [00:33:00] It's either that revelation Peter gets there and then on Jesus says, this wasn't, you, you didn't learn this.

This was revealed to you by my father. But, but sometimes we, we may be tempted to read that as a revelation. It just comes at that moment, which is uncool with absolutely fame with, but could it be the revelation? You are the Christ, the son of the living, God has been seated in this moment. As far as the Matthew text is concerned.

If, if Peter in the boat goes, the IRM is on the water and he says, Lord bit become and all right, we, we know Peter sinks and we'll get to that. I'm sure in a moment, but, but the fact that he responds to a regulatory. Hearing of something, which in a couple of chapters later, I think then explodes into this.

You are the Christ, you are the son of a living God. And, and of course, then Jesus says, and on this rock now I know there's a lot of controversy around the whole thing. Who's the rock, what's the rock. But for me it feels like an easy fit to lean into the idea that the rock is the confession that Peter walked on the water on.

So if Peter is seeing the am on the water or this in reality, walking on the water to that revelation, then the connection that, that revelation you are, the Christ, the son of the living, God, you are, the air is, is, is connected to Matthew 16 as the rock. On which not the church walks on water, but the church is built.

The ecclesia is built. So, so potentially the Matthew 14 story and the Matthew 16 story are connected. And I, I think there, I think that's worth exploring that link. 

He walks to the eye arm, then he confesses that he's the Christ, so, 

David: [00:35:04] love that John and I do, I think you're right. And it's probably worth mentioning very briefly. There is a lot of nervousness amongst Christians, often around the Peters classification as the rock. Right. And, and I think some of this is rooted in historical, your Protestant and Catholic divides. I suppose my comment on it would be simply to say, Bear in mind that that discussion about, cause what we hear is there's a question is Jesus instituting Peter as the Pope, when he calls him out to be the rock.

And I obviously, and I mean this with great sensitivity to our Catholic listeners and our Protestant listeners that we would have just bear in mind that that whole discussion is a discussion that begins at very least 400 years later and may even begin 1500 years later. So when Jesus and Peter are having a conversation about, Hey you Peter, which means literally.

I'm going to make you this big rock. I think that you can, as a Bible reader, forget the next 1500 years of discussion and rather connect that to what you then see happening at the day of Pentecost, where you actually see pizza becoming this catalyst leader of the beginning of the church. And so I think it's an important and sorry to kind of move the conversation somewhere that we didn't expect to go.

 It's worth, always mentioning there's a lot of times that model. Or, or more recent discussions about pieces of theology get important back onto the text, don't they? 

So there's No, sense that pizza or Jesus were thinking about that at that particular moment. And I think that to me, that's always helpful. To, to just release myself from worrying. I, I want both Catholics and Protestants to read this text and, and hear this text and, and, and not get caught up in, in, in our later divisions.

If, if that's it, maybe I'm being too bold as to assume what we can do in, in a conversation, read the Bible, but we've got to be careful of importing ideas. 

John: [00:37:06] oh, absolutely. But I mean, that's been one of the things we've constantly reflected on together. And our, and our two tech series is that we are prone constantly to read back into, I said, Jesus is a very, very dangerous thing and, and we're reading something in, we are all vulnerable to that improvement to that.

And I think the beauty of making a sort of a journey that we're doing together as two friends is that it forces us just read it as it is. Don't read it with 2000 years of church history. Layered back on top of it, read it as it is right now. And if you just read it as it is, if read it, as Matthew says it, then there is this gorgeous, I think more than tenuous link between the IRM who standing on the water calling Peter happens to be, Peter just happens to be Peter who responds and he responds not because he's crazy.

And he wants to, he has a death wish. Well, because he's, he's hot, he's hot, a revelation. Something has happened in Peter that says, if it's you, if it's you, if you're really the arm, then bed me com 

David: [00:38:19] Hmm. 

John: [00:38:20] Now I know some people will go, well, no, it wasn't saying if it's the I arm, he was just saying, Jesus.

Yeah, but he's never seen Jesus do this before. He's never seen it. Jesus. Walk on water before this is a whole new literally excuse the pun out of the boat experience. So he is absolutely. Absolutely in, in, in, unchartered territory with this. So something is getting him out of the boat. If you're prepared to go with the conversation, which I think is just must be considered at the very least, then Matthew 16, when it pops up and we read it later, you go, oh, oh, where have I heard that before?

And, and this is where it potentially, so it could be the revelation we're seeing Jesus Peter fully articulate in 16 is seeded in 14.

David: [00:39:12] And so you get this. And this is important. If you read Genesis, you read Genesis one as a Jewish reader. What you see is, is, is the Lord. I deny I am. He controls the chaos of the waters. Like w we don't read this often, but, but you get a sense of this chaos and the holy spirit is over the deep. And then what you start to see if you, and go back and read, go back and read Genesis one and watch for it.

Now that the V the first few days of progress in the Genesis story are the Lord controlling the waters. He's pushing back waters and the land, the separating sky, the waters of the sky from the waters of the sea. So I love this nuance, that pizza. Well, if it's, I am, I can go out and be next to him on the waters because he has control over the chaos of the deep, in the waters of the deep.

And, and so in mark and Matthew, he see it in very matter of factual. So Peter got out of the boat and walked on water and came to Jesus. 

John: [00:40:14] Yeah.

David: [00:40:14] Matthew, Matthew has this brilliant sentence of occasionally this amazing language. And other time he says this with all the grand juror of and David and John wandered down the platform of the train station and got on the train like this.

So Peter got out of the boat and walked into water and went to Jesus. 

John: [00:40:30] Yup. 

David: [00:40:31] It's people accused the gospel writers, sometimes of manufacturing, these stories to see things about Jesus. This is a common criticism over, over the last several centuries, isn't it? That these stories are made up and they're basically making up these mythological stories to make points about Jesus.

And I always find myself thinking. And I mean this with respect, I should be a better, I should be a better opponent and pull later than this, but when people say stuff like that to me, and I mean, learn at scholars, say that I always wanted. Have you actually read these texts? If I was going to sit down and make up a story about Jesus walking on water, I, I do it better than this.

Like it's so matter of fact, you can't, you cannot accuse Matthew of pomp and ceremony here. So Peter got out of the boat and he walked over to Jesus on the water. It's like, there's no, it's, it's, it's not how you make up a story like this you'd do a much better. You've got kids, I've got a daughter when they make up stories, imaginative stories, they're way more grand and glitzy than this.

But Matthew talks about it. Like I say, as if he also had said, Peter got up out of the boat, walked on water. And then also Peter one day went to the shops and bought some lamp. And I know it's not the strongest argumentative point, John, but it just strikes me that there's something beautiful about the simplicity and the matter of fact, this of this, 

John: [00:41:56] for sure. 

David: [00:41:57] he walks on water. 

John: [00:41:58] And, and again, it's recognizing that into the ordinariness of our faith, there is a, an expectation of the school. Natural that in the every day we believe in the arm, we believe in the am, who can step into my job, who can step into my family, who can step into my relationships, who can step in to literal or metaphorical storms, but, but actually who wants to live with me in the ordinary and, and as but yet in the ordinary demonstrate something of his glory and something that is truly not ordinary and supernatural and spectacular.

And I do, I love, I love how it reads and I simply, it sort of reads it. Of course, the matter of factness it seems in which Peter walks then suddenly leads us to this next dramatic moment. Which for me demonstrates a little bit of of a a nuance in the text that wants to allude to, it says, it says there verse 30, seeing nine, the wind.

He was afraid. Okay. And he began to sink. Now. What's really interesting is I think in our passage, David, there's a lovely tension between the reaction to something. When you see it under reaction of something, when you hear it. So for example our first reference during the fourth watch of the night, Jesus went out to them.

When the disciples saw him, they were terrified. Okay. Then they cried. But look at, look at the expect, but Jesus immediately said to them, 

Lord, if it's you tell me to come, Peter responds to a word. So he, I arm come. So Peter responds to that word, walks on water. So he's walking on the water based on what he's heard.

He starts to sink based on what he sees. All right now, again, could be over cooking that, but I think there's a bit of a sandwich there that they're terrified because of what they see Peter sinks because of what he sees, but he walks on the pieces of what he heard. And again, in a Jewish nuance, this sort of idea of hearing is a stronger one than seeing.

I think that's a stronger idea in a fifth context then, then, then seeing is, is the hearing. Now, we, we would lean into seeing in terms of revelation, our eyes are opened, opened. My eyes are Lord that I may see wonderful things in your law. The Psalmist says in Psalm 119. So there's no problem with the idea of seeing, but there is in this story, a lovely contrast between what they see and how they respond on what they hear.

And how they 

David: [00:44:55] Yes. 

John: [00:44:56] And I, and I, I think there's something going on there, David seeing the wind, he was afraid and began the sink. And, and I just, I think that the world of revelation in following the IOM and following the Lord in, in, in FA we've got to learn to hear more than we see. 

David: [00:45:17] Yes. 

John: [00:45:18] I think if we can lean into what we know by hearing, then it allows our, our hearing allows us to inform our, seeing that that actually we, we then can interpret the wind and a different way if we've heard certain things.

But if we allow our lives to be driven by simply what we see on the surface, then it will always challenge what we've heard. So I just think there's a little. There's a, there's a couple of rabbits in there worth chasing for our listeners to think about what they, when they saw, they were afraid when they heard he responded.

David: [00:45:58] Deuteronomy six, four here. Oh, Israel. the Lord, your God is the only God or the Lord. Your God is one. The it's difficult. Not to think that the nav there's something going on in that. I think it's Leonard suites, who I first encountered this idea that your eyes are pretty much fixed size, your entire life, your ears never stop growing.

And. 

John: [00:46:26] wow. Wow. 

David: [00:46:27] And is this, so your ears get bigger as you get older and they continue to do so. And and Len sweet mix the point that, we actually need to listen much more than we do. We're, we're over overstimulated by, by visual stimuli and under-stimulated by listening. And so I Love that John, that this idea that, that.

there's a scene and even it's interesting in verse 30, he saw the wind and he was afraid and began to sink.

And

John: [00:47:02] Hmm,

David: [00:47:03] even in the, in the studying for, for, for talking about this today, I find myself reflecting on.

have I ever noticed that order before? I think if you'd said to me, if I was being honest, I think if you said to me what happened, I would say Peter started sinking and was afraid, but actually he becomes afraid and then start sinking.

He allows the visual stimuli to overwhelm what he's heard and that leads to fear. So the fear comes before the sinking, which is quite, it's just a little interesting nuance in terms of the order of the way Matthew tells the story there. 

John: [00:47:40] It is. And I think when you read, so like one of the things I love to do, I think I've said this to our listeners before. I love to read the Bible at load. 

David: [00:47:49] Yeah. 

John: [00:47:49] So it's funny when you read attacks, you sometimes hear the sort of rhythms of the tax or even repeat ideas. So like when, when I was reading this and reading, I kept hearing the word immediately pops up which is there.

But also then you,  you hear, as you read it, overload this, they were afraid because they thought it was a ghost. They saw him, then Peter responds to a hearing and then there's a dramatic moment with another scene. Now, when you read that out loud and you read it slowly, you're seeing a sandwich though.

There's a scene hearing, seen somewhere. Now is that just a coincidence? It could be. And of course our, our listeners pay their money, take their choice sort of thing in the sense of going yeah. I'll, I'll decide whether I believe or not, but but I, I, I don't ignore those little connectors. I see them so often in the text, little literary nuances, that, that point to something I'm, and again, that revelation that comes via hearing, which in a Jewish worldview is strongly rooted in Shamar hearing and doing, you, you heard the proof that you've heard something is that you do something that's, that's the sort of Shema idea hearing.

Undoing our own almost synonymous within the multilayers of that beautiful, beautiful word. And, and of course it's, it's often translated obey in the Torah, but there is no verb for obedience in the Torah, which is quite striking it's it's it's most of the time it Shema. It's the idea I've heard.

Therefore, I obey Peter is getting out of the boat because he's heard. So I just, I think things quite powerful as a lean into the, to the sort of Jewish context of that,

David: [00:49:50] I love. The preacher in me wants to make a big deal of this, but I'm just going to drop it. And and then our listener can, can turn it into the big deal and they can go and preach it. They can go preach it as as we've alluded to before anything you hear in two texts, you can steal for a sermon, right.

But just notice verse 26, you just alluded to it. But I just, I just want to circle back to you for a second. It's a ghost and they cried out in fear, but immediately Jesus spoke to them have courage. And then verse 30, he was afraid and began to sink and he cried out. Lord save me. And immediately Jesus, Jesus is immediately at , both the points of fear in the, in the story.

He, they immediately as appear following fear Jesus, this time, instead of saying something, he now reaches out his hand and catches him and then asked him the question. I love it. It's kind of, I. Peter, Peter gets told by Jesus, you have little faith. Right. And, and I always, and, and let me just jump into some Greek where I w you have little faith was always a condemnation.

When I grew up hearing this, oh, you have little faith. Like you failure pizza, you failure. And it was only when I was reading the, the, the Greek of this. That Jesus doesn't see this in the most natural way. He doesn't use the kind of Greek comparables of you, of little faith. He actually calls Peter a name.

Right. And I just find this really fascinating job because  I actually think it helps us read this just, just a little bit differently. Right? So, so Peter reaches out and he cries out Lord save me, which again, I mean, there's so much resonance and a nuance in that.

Isn't there. We can't, we don't almost don't want to just jump immediately.

over, over that, that call of, of, of Lord save me. But then there's this little phrase that he uses. All legal pistos us.  It's an adjective, but it kind of means like micro faith or weak faith, but it,  like Jesus calls him.

Yeah, exactly. At least like he calls him little faith. It's not  the translators. I, I don't want to feel like I'm running on the translators, but oh, you of little faith, Sones, condom, naturey. And we then have utilized this to kind of create anxiety amongst a lot of people about, do I have enough faith or not, but in the Greek, there's this sense of Jesus, Lord save me.

And Jesus catches him. Good. Hey little faith. Why did you doubt? Right. It feels pastoral. Now. It feels like the great rabbi saying great job on trying here. Peter, why did you give up? Right? Why did I. Again, we're always, we're all you and I are both always nervous about pushing it too far, but I hear this differently in the Greek, by Jesus using this, this adjective of, Little faith.

Why did you, why did you give up on this? It just, I don't want to say it sounds cute, but it feels like it changes the resonance and the tone. 

John: [00:53:03] What does, can I say? I think it makes more sense. So. New other disciples got out of the boat and walked on water. 

David: [00:53:14] Good call. 

John: [00:53:15] I mean, this is the first human that I knew of in recorded history. That's walked on water apart from Jesus. So, so, so the man, alright, he's sinking, but he has walked on water and it's clear, he walked towards Jesus.

I mean, he got done out of the boat. It's very explicit. Got doughnut of the boat on walked toward Jesus. So then for Jesus to suddenly say, you're NumPy, what's wrong with you. What's 

David: [00:53:43] big failure. 

John: [00:53:44] Yeah. It reads wrong. Whereas if there is a, if you, if you're going to read it with a pastoral nuance or little faith, why did you date me?

And here's, here's the thing. I think, I think this leans back again to I arm because, because Jesus is saying Peter. The key to walk in on the water is not, it's not something you can muster up in you, but it's trusting in me. It's why, why did you don't when, when you already grabbed the idea I arm, why did you donate that?

I've got ya. I'm enough. So again, back to back to the feeding of the fact, I'm enough to feed these people. I'm enough to calm the storm. I'm enough that Peter, why did, why did you allow the storm to take you away from the enoughness of me in this situation? But, but I think, I think David, you are absolutely on to something.

And I think that that reads better. I think it makes sense in the story. It doesn't feel brutal. It's still a rebuke. And I think there I've often reflected on the fact that there are, there's almost two sides to love than this, this action, you immediately he grabs him. You're not going to die, boy, I've got ya.

No, one's dying today, especially not you. But then as he, as he hangs onto him, he says, but, but, but why did you, why did you dope me? 

So there's a gorgeous sort of compassionate shepherding side of rescue. And there's also the compassionate shepherd inside the challenges within this. But, but I think it reads better that way.

And I think it's sort of, it's almost like, yeah, he's still getting a rebuke, but it's like, Jesus is saying, Hey well done. But, and I think that, I think it makes sense because he has just walked on water. 

David: [00:55:45] Yes. 

John: [00:55:46] I think it's a bit hard.

David: [00:55:48] And, and in truth, we're all sympathetic to Peter because most of us know we wouldn't have done well, most of us know that if we, or anybody in the story, we're the unnamed disciples that are firmly rooted, 

John: [00:55:59] Absolutely. 

David: [00:56:00] rooted to their seat in the boat. 

John: [00:56:02] it's true. What's Peter doing? I'm not going after him if he goes on their place, 

David: [00:56:08] Yeah.

it's true. And so I think there's a sense in which the doubt. Of Peter, resonates with us. And, and I, I think we'll talk about this a little later in this series in more depth, but there's some there's, we have an uncomfortable relationship with doubt in the church because we see it as the opposite of faith and the two can't dwell together.

And if you live in that world, This, this story becomes quite terrifying because if Jesus is condemning Peter for, Oh, you of little faith, why did you doubt if it comes in that sort of tone? It's a terrifying story because the one thing I can be absolutely certain of in my own life is doubt.

Doubt is present in a whole host of areas of my life. And if Jesus is condemning of doubts, then where am I safe with all of my debts. But if Jesus like a dad teaching his child to read, ride their bike, he's just like, ah, little faith. Come on. Why did you doubt, why did you stop paddling? Why did you get off before that hill?

Not, it is still rebuke, but it's rebuke based off. You've got it in you to keep doing this. So it's not, I don't know if that metaphor example works, John, but you know, you're teaching your child to ride their bike and they're still dealing with some of the fears. And so occasionally they stop early in the process.

You do rebuke, but the rebuke is based on it's in you. Right? You could have kept going. It's not the rebuke based on, you don't know what you're doing. Cause that's an in breath. That's an aggressive and unfair rebuke to rebuke somebody based on something they cannot do. Right. What I'm hearing for Jesus is, is the loving hand of the shepherd going, Peter, you were able to do this.

This is in you. And all of a sudden now. My doubts are met with a Jesus who says you didn't need to because I'm with you rather than the condemning Jesus, who just is looking for a chance just to knock me down and leave me in anxiety about not having enough faith. So for me, there's actually quite, I know I could argue from elsewhere in scripture that we're not hanging all of this, just on one little Greek word saying Jesus is being cute, but it's worth just pointing out how you think of God and how you think God engages with you.

And your doubts can be quite catastrophic to how you go about living your life. Is your relationship with Jesus one-off taskmaster. Who's waiting for you to fail, or is it one of excited teacher who just wants to encourage you that you've got it in you to keep going and growing in this? And it can, I'd like, to me it changes the resonance of a whole host of things. 

John: [00:58:57] massive on of course, that funneling you once you've led you you've leaned into is very much captured. Isn't it? In terms of that, the father will discipline. Those that are his, so, eh, no, it came, we think of a word like discipline and we, we, many of us automatically jumped to a very negative understanding of discipline, but of course, to discipline and that Constance simply means to disciple, to grow in the context of learning and affirmation.

It's not, it's not about brutality or putting someone down. It's always with the idea to build up, to enhance, to increase. And often of course, it's seen in a Bible worldview in the context of dynamic, covenantal, understanding and relationship. So again, you, you used a beautiful example of father and child.

Or parent and child in that sort of respect. I think the Bible leans into that with God's relationship to us. Absolutely. Both in Hebrews and in Proverbs, we get that very explicitly presented to us. If you're then prepared to read that call the Nantel context of discipline into a moment like this, then it's never a rebuke of death, but always a stimulus to life.

It's never, about the Lord saying to me, like a school teacher once said to me, bless his heart. You're an idiot. Andrews, you're stupid, boy. You'll never amount to anything. You'll probably die on the streets of Belfast. That, that's what, that's what I was told as a 10 year old in school.

Grateful to God. That was an exceptional moment, but it I'm 54 and I can still remember my insides. 

David: [01:00:45] Yeah. 

John: [01:00:46] like, I don't want to, I don't want to disturb our, our listeners, but I almost wet myself as a 10 year old boy being brought out the front and humiliated in front of my class because I wasn't doing very well in some of my math work.

I struggled with now I'm 54 and I still remember the feeling of humiliation. 

David: [01:01:07] yeah, 

John: [01:01:08] So humiliation fear is a terrible task master in 

David: [01:01:13] yeah, 

John: [01:01:15] If you want to grow grit, disciples, fear and humiliation will not do it. Now, what you'll end up with is a bunch. The subjects who are sort of free to step out of lane that they'll do whatever they're told, but you'll not grow life.

You'll not grew health, you'll not grow something it's vibrant and dynamic and, and is worth replicating. And I think Jesus creates this dynamic relationship with his young disciples where every now and again, he has to say, swipe them. He has to get into them. He has to challenge them. But the, the whole of the context is about them becoming everything they were meant to be.

And, and that's why I think you don't get any massive negative repercussion of Peter getting back in the boat. You don't get this sort of big negative story as a result of it. Well, if Peter gets his head kicked in by Jesus, because he's sunk in to see what are we going to do instead? What's the reaction.

The reaction is true too. You're the son of God. 

David: [01:02:15] Yeah. They 

John: [01:02:16] So, whatever has gone on there, it's not the negative negative. Life sapping type of rebuke. The people often think it is it's it's maybe all little fear. Come on, Lord, you can do this. I know you've got this and I've got you. And if I've got you, you can do this.

And of course what's fascinating, David is that Jesus and our listeners might pick this up, but like, Jesus does all of this. It seems while he's got Peter in the water. So it doesn't say Jesus lifted him out of the water. It, it sort of, immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. It doesn't say lifted him, caught him.

And then while he's holding him in the water, he said, Little fifth, come on. What, why did you date? And then he pulls him out and that's when the, when the storm comes down. So, so yeah, it's I think if you put all of the, sort of the hints together, I think you're getting a much more, I mean, it's a rebuke, but it's so much more, life-giving tend to rebuke.

It's a, it's a chastisement that the Bible talks about of the chest Heisman of a loving father to children. He loves rather than a rebuke of a tyrant to a subjects. 

David: [01:03:35] Are the Shepherd's crook. We've talked about Jesus over Matthew 14 and the illusions in John to him as the shepherd, it's that, it might look firm and harsh, but it's guiding and directing. And I mean, it's interesting that they get back into the boat and That's when the wind ceased, if you just want the final piece of proof that this is, I am now, the storm has been subject to his, to his will in, .

And, and the net result, of course, when you're in the present of I am is you must worship. 

John: [01:04:07] Absolutely. It's gorgeous. Isn't it? It's truly, you are the son of God. And my goodness, that's got to be ultimately our, our desire is to, is to hear that he is the I arm and in to see him as the one who can be totally trusted in and to worship him. I love it. 

 DH Intro: [01:04:31] Okay. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening and we hope that you enjoyed it. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something that we said , you can reach out to us on podcast@twotexts.com. Or by liking and following the two tacks podcast on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. 

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