His Name was Legion | Miracles 5

In which John and David discuss a man tormented by evil in a place called Gerasenes. A dark and slightly scary story of a man with an "unclean spirit", or perhaps a legion of unclean spirits. How can Jesus turn around a story like this? And if he can, what does that imply for all of us?

• Click Here to read the text from Mark 5:1-20. 

Episode Outline

• 1:04 Mark 5 
• 9:13 Jesus v Legion 
• 18:07 The evil forces are malevolent 
• 27:24 Did the demons worship? 
• 40:19 The authority in a name 
• 48:24 The economic impact of the story 
• 56:13 The adverse reaction to a miracle 
• 1:02:01 What happened in Decapolis doesn't stay in Decapolis

The next episode of Two Texts will be on Thursday July 22. 

Episode 22 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 5

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Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Chapters

• 1:04 Mark 5
• 9:13 Jesus v Legion
• 18:07 The evil forces are malevolent
• 27:24 Did the demons worship?
• 40:19 The authority in a name
• 48:24 The economic impact of the story
• 56:13 The adverse reaction to a miracle
• 1:02:01 What happened in Decapolis doesn't stay in Decapolis

Transcript

Intro: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm David Harvey. I'm here with John Andrews and this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends, two different countries here, every two weeks talking about two different texts from the Bible.  This is our second season. It's about the miracles of Jesus. And this is episode five. 

And it's called "His name was Legion".   

David: [00:00:36] Well, hello, John. We are here again and ready for another two texts this week. And so let's jump straight into it. We're talking about Jesus and his miraculous works that he's doing and what we might learn from that. And we have for the next two episodes, really tasty chapter of Mark's gospel, which is mark chapter five.

So you're going to read it for us just now. 

John: [00:01:04] Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Very excited about this. So here we go. Verse one, mark five. It says they went across the lake to the region of the garrisons. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs and no one could bind him anymore.

Not even with a chin. For, he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his face. No one was strong enough to subdue him night and day among the tombs and in the Hills, he would cry out and cut himself with stones. When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him.

He showed it at the top of his voice. What do you want with me? Jesus, son of the most high God in God's name, don't torture me for Jesus had said to him, come out of this man, you impure spirit. Then Jesus asked him, what Is your name? My name is Legion. He replied for, we are many and he begged Jesus again and again, not the send them out of the area.

A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby Hills. The demons begged Jesus sent us among the pigs, allow us to go into them. He gave them permission and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd about 2000, a number rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned. Those tending the pigs, ran off and reported this and atone and the countryside.

And the people went out to see what part happened when they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the Legion of demons, sitting there dressed and in his right mind. And they were afraid. Those who had seen it told the people would have happened to the demon possessed man and told the boat, the pigs as well.

Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave the region. As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go away. Jesus did not let him, but said, go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you and high. He has had mercy on you. So the man went away and began to tell, and that the capitalists, how much Jesus had done for him and all the people were amazed when Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake.

And we'll, we'll leave it there because that sets us up nicely for our next podcast, David. So there we are. Beautiful story. 

David: [00:04:07] Also a slightly scary story. When you actually think about what's going on there. I often wonder if mark had a server side gig in writing scary stories for people, because if you actually listen to this, the images in the, in the, in the picture that he paints  it would be quite a scene, wouldn't it?

 There's Hills and tombs. There's this man who is probably. Heavily scarred and damaged because of what he's been doing to himself is his encounter with Jesus. It's all done at load volume, then there's, then there's pigs diving, diving off the side of the cliff.

You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's big budget movie stuff. If you were to try and turn this into a scene that we could understand.

John: [00:04:56] For sure. And of course the disciples of Jesus are entirely Jewish under entering into what will feel to them like a fairly unsafe region as well. I think the pigs are a great little touch on that in terms of letting the reader know we are no firmly in Gentile territory. So, so imagine also then 

David: [00:05:18] not in Kansas anymore. 

John: [00:05:20] antique indeed.

So, layered, layered on to the obvious aggressive nature of this moment. And it's probably the most aggressive event we've seen in the gospel of mark up to this point, in terms of, in terms of this experience. But then put it in the context. We're also firmly in Gentile territory and it makes for even the disciples of Jesus, it makes a very unnerving experience.

And of course, one of the things that is remarkable as it just a little almost throw away is that the disciples aren't even referenced. It's like you do sort of get the impression they're going, oh, whoa. A step away from the man with the chains and it's I, and you do really. And of course, we, we've all been in those life moments that have terrified us lately and put us on the back foot.

But also some of us have been in maybe spiritual experiences that have really thrown us. We are, whoa, what's just happened or what is happening and We're disorientated and it is quite striking. There's not a single reference to his his gorgeous young disciples in this story, probably taking now a fairly significant backseat on this particular event and who, who would blend them, who would blame them seriously. 

David: [00:06:41] I was I was involved in, sorry, I shouldn't say involved, John, that would be a completely misleading. I, I was present an armed robbery once while I was doing some some work in the U S I was in a gas station and, and S some men came in with guns and, and, and held up the place.

And me and my friends in a scene, I would love to see the CCTV from realized that we had a very brief moment that we snuck out the back door. So we saw the people coming in, realize what was going on. And somewhere on CCTV in the world, there's the three of us just shuffling along the wall and then out the door.

And we were gone never to know what exactly happened there again. I, I feel like that's the disciple, this story just let's go back to the book buys.

John: [00:07:30] Indeed. And of course it's really easy to miss that little well factor. I, as well as we'll lean into probably in our next podcast, there's, the disciples are involved in, in the second half of, of mark chapter five and, and in and deliberately. So, but, but in this one, they are incredibly.

Absent from this story. And, and of course it's, it's, for all of us to remember this for them is also a learning experience. They are literally seeing things they've never seen before in some cases. And they're certainly seeing G. Deal with it in a way they've never seen dealt with before.

So, so, w we should give these lovely young followers of Jesus. We should give them a bit of room and a bit of a bit of slack on this one, because I, I think there are moments in the ministry and life of Jesus. When he seems to move into overdrive, he seems to go into something that's really quite dynamic and powerful.

And, and the, these disciples around him, I think in a lot of cases are catching up and they're just trying to get their head around. What on earth is going on. And, and so, I think that's an encouragement to us all as followers of Jesus. There are moments when, when we are taken by surprise.

And also if we're honest, there are moments when we do want to step back, we do want to step away. We are a little bit intimidated by stuff that's going on around us. And so we would rather someone else handle this and that, and Jesus absolutely steps forward and, and, And ticks as it were control of this situation in a, in a fairly significant and authoritative way.

It's very powerful.

David: [00:09:13] There's a little bit of me wonders if there's a bit of the, the contrast happening in the story. There, it's also the fact that Jesus seems to be alone. Despite the fact he got off the boat with some disciples almost increases the contrast of the story because it's a face-off between Jesus alone and.

A Legion of demons. So one level, it's a one V one, it's this, it's this man with the chains, screaming from the, from the tombs versus Jesus. But then as you dig into the story, as you say, you notice, wait a minute, Jesus is alone without his disciples. It appears. And, and secondly, this man, when we spend a bit of time with him, seems to have the strength of thousands of, of demonic forces that are giving him this sort of supernatural ability to essentially be uncontrolled.

John: [00:10:09] Yeah. Beautiful observation, David. I love that. I love that. And, and whether that's deliberate from mark or, or one of those gorgeous God incidences in this sort of story into it's like, oh, that is not a beautiful little sort of nuance, whether that's deliberate or not, but, but you do get this stark moment of fear SOF you've got a fairly significant spiritual The challenge for Jesus here, as he steps forward and engages with this bond.

And, And and you do get the sense of, wow. Anything could happen here as we, as we read the story. so it is, it is very dramatic. It's yeah, I think again, reading it, I load gives the, the sense of the drama. And when you're prepared to slow that story down, you are, you are aware of hydromatic.

This would be for his disciples for the, for the Gentiles looking after the pigs for the whole thing that's going on here. And of course, right in the center of it, it's Jesus and this man, this nameless month w we, we don't know his actual name, which is a striking thing, but, but Jesus engages with them.

Beautiful. Beautiful.

David: [00:11:18] what's, what's interesting, John, is that the language description? So if you follow verse 2, 3, 4, and then five, you get this very, very graphic description of what's of what we're dealing with in this, in this particular story. But interesting that it starts with the term that feels slightly underplayed to us.

So if I said to you, let me like a lot of Bibles, they had this Jesus heals the, the Garrison a demoniac right or something, like this we're going to say Garris Seine in, in this episode has some people would pronounce it, Garrison a these are the things that let's leave that to another group of people to discuss, which is the right way to pronounce this.

But, but if you actually read the text. A man with a spirit of impurity, that's that, or, or perhaps an unclean spirit. Now I think I, I'm just going to say here, I think the way to potentially translate that word is Imperial. But actually because of how Mark's telling us this story across the next chapter, because we're going to encounter more religious and ritual impurity in the coming in the coming verses.

But at the same time, I think that as far as trailer goal for the coming verse, he's a man with, with ritual impurity or a man with a, with a spirit of impunity sorry. The very escalates quickly. That almost sounds like, well, what is a spur of impurity? And the next thing you've got tombs and chains, 

John: [00:12:54] Okay. 

David: [00:12:54] the, the, the sort of, all of this kind of very vast destructive language, this, this description of this man as.

Well, I mean, as, as, as tormented by these other powers, aren't they? And definitely, it seems like Mark's trying to describe to you. He lived amongst the tombs. Now this, you see this in a lot of Jewish literature that this is where. People who are in the Jewish literature. We talk about contemporary Jewish literature around at the time of Jesus.

You see the language of, well, that's where people are out of their mind going Hangouts. Right. And even though mark, doesn't say that the man is out of his mind, it is worth noting the, after the, the, the, the story, the healing, or the actresses, and happens, you notice that he does sail. The man is now in his right mind.

So you've got this, this very graphic image of, of, people hanging out in, in, in tombs being very unstable. But then, then mark adds to that. No one could restrain him, not even with a chain. So they've tried, they've tried to chain this man up. But whenever they've chained him, he's just wrenched apart.

And the shackles of broke in PCs. Now, now this could this could sound slightly wrong and abusive at some level like, oh my goodness, these people are chaining up this man. Who's in such a difficult scenario. But if you actually jump ahead just to the end of verse five, you realize that that he is, he is cutting himself, the net result of this impure spirit or this, this oppression, these cover is causing immense bodily harm to the man.

So there, so it's also possible that the attempt to subdue this man is for his own benefit. Like this man is hurting himself. We have to somehow protect him. And then just at the end of verse four, I love these little moments in mark where mark goes and no one had the strength to subdue him. 

John: [00:14:47] Beautiful. 

David: [00:14:48] And then,   and then enter stage.

Right. Jesus.

John: [00:14:53] Yeah.

It's a beautiful contrast out. Of course we we've leaned into some of the stuff in mark four in our parable series. And I think moving from mark four into mark five, really exaggerates and illuminates that contrast even more of the death sense, the uncontrolled chaos of the demonic world, this impure uncleanness that these demons have brought on this man, contrast that to the, to the vitality and life of the kingdom of God that Jesus has touched on in, in parables like the soar and, and the mustard seed.

And of course what I love there, David you've picked that up just beautifully. At the end of verse four, there was a gorgeous contrast and diverse for chapter five with the end of chapter four. So when Jesus comes the storm he said to his disciples, why you saw free at verse 40? Do you still have no fear?

And it says this, they were terrified and asked each other, who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him. So, so we're stepping out of a storm where wind and where the Zev obeyed him. The first thing we're confronted with is the chaos, the destruction, the antithesis of this life of the kingdom of God that Jesus has been presenting through these magnificent parables are on climactic glee.

We're told on, by the way, no one could subdue him. Having just been told by mark that Jesus subdued, he caused. The winds and the waves. And I love that again, to our, to our listeners. It's leaning into sometimes the cautious connectedness of the text and not just, don't just jump off the edge of a chapter and then like, forget where you've just been an in jump into a new chapter.

Sometimes the writer literally is carrying up a gorgeous golden thread or a nuance from one story into another story. And if you read and the four into five, you cannot miss this life death. Sort of contrast and this subdues, the wind and the waves or by the way, no one could subdue him. I just love that.

Isn't that gorgeous. It just, it just grabs you. And so you're you, you know that, even though if we were reading mark five for the first time, oh, what's going on happen. If we were hearing this red, to us, what's about to happen. If we've gone through four into five, we're going, hold on a minute.

The one who just calmed the wind and the waves is now in front of someone who cannot be subdued. Ooh. Ooh. Is that a clue? Is that, is that some, so he's, he's gone from subduing nature. 

David: [00:17:51] Hmm.

John: [00:17:53] he's being challenged by spiritual forces in terms of his authority and power. I love, I love that nuance to carry through there, David and I, as you pick it up there no one was able to sit you.

How many tickets? Beautiful. 

David: [00:18:07] And you get this sort of sense in the, again, in the surrounding kind of literature and beliefs of Jesus, he's time that the evil forces are malevolent. They are setting themselves in opposition to God. So you've got Jesus, the Lord of nature even the winds and the waves, and now you're going to come into all.

Or what about Jesus and the malevolent forces? What about Jesus in, in, in this context now, and what's interesting, of course, is mark has been hinting to you about this. So if you go right the way back to the beginning of Mark's gospel, mark chapter one, Jesus, one of his first things that happens to him in his ministry after his baptism is this encounter with this oppressed man in, in a, in a synagogue context.

And now, interestingly this man there. The same question of Jesus in mark 1 24 as this is this Legion as Jesus here in verse seven, like the literal Greek is what, what is there between us? What to you and me, or, what have, what have you got to do with me? And now this is a beautiful insight, I think, into the sort of sense of the, of the, the kind of demonic forces and how they were understood in the time of Jesus.

Like what have we got in common? What have we got to, to do in this? It's very, very harsh language. You and me are significantly different. In fact, what's interesting is aware as several points through the gospels. You'll see the demons asked Jesus, this question, what is there between us Jesus, the only time you ever see Jesus asked this question is actually in John's gospel.

When he asks it to. To his mom, right? When she says you need to do something about there being no wine and Jesus and Jesus was like, well, wait a minute. What have we got in common going on here? So it's an in John that frees really contrast the timeline of God with the timeline of humanity. But here in mark, this question is always posing.

Hugely significant contrast between the world of the demons in the world, the world of Jesus. But then what's interesting is at the end of that story in mark chapter one, you get to verse 32 and 34. And mark just throws out this little report about Jesus that says that Jesus goes through places and he's proclaiming the kingdom of God and casting out demons.

And the way that the grammar of that little verse works is really beautiful because it sort of mark implies that the kingdom of God and the demons, they can't share space, they can't be in the same location together. So from the very beginning of Mark's gospel, you've got this sense that when Jesus enters the place of impure spirits, Something's going to have to happen because the two it's the oil and water, they don't, they don't share space.

They don't, they don't mix well together, which I think is quite, it's quite exciting actually in the way that mark set this up nature. Now let's have a big contrast between not one but thousands of demons.

John: [00:21:12] Yep. No beautiful. And isn't it gorgeous as well? David, they're just following your, your thread of just seeing something beautiful again in mark. One is that all of those references would be in mark one largely in a sort of a Jewish context. And so, that that mark one story actually happens in the context of a synagogue, which is, which is quite striking.

And the implication following that towards the end of chapter, one of mark is that Jesus ministry and in sort of largely Jewish territory. And here he is now crossing into Gentile territory and it's like, and of course, some of our, some of our listeners may make. I have an understanding that this year it's, but there wasn't the ancient near east, there's sort of a territorial view of power of, God is the God of this region or this people doesn't just being, a group of, but, but a sort of a geographic identity.

And, and you've got there Jesus and in a very much Jewish context and Mark Wong showing that he is master and Lord here. And the impact that, that makes, they in a Jewish worldview, they, they even say, he, he teaches as one who had authority there shocked, what is this? They say new teaching art with authority.

He even gives orders, evil spirits, and they obey him. So in a Jewish world, he establishes that authority. Non-market five it's as if it's, as if he's put in a marker. Even in Gentile authority and showing that God's authority can cross borders. God's authority can cross boundaries. God's authority is not hindered by geography or by race.

I think it's a lovely, if you connect one and five together, I think it's a nice wee extra thread there

David: [00:23:07] So you're seeing a sort of expanding influence that Mark's kind of re pulling back the curtain and showing you, cause like I'm noticing mark 1 39, and he went throughout Galilee. So it's a very, very Jewish ministry, a very localized Jewish ministry. He went throughout Galilee proclaiming the message in synagogues and casting out demons.

So you've got this if, if and I love what you're seeing here, this idea that, oh, look at this little local ministry and there's a bit of, there's a bit of casting out demons going on and there's proclaiming of the message. And then you get this ministry growing and now it's like, wait a minute.

Okay. It's now taken on nature and now it's taking on, what do we see Jesus doing locally in Galilee and synagogues. He's now doing in Gentile territory amongst the tombs. And of course, as you say, the pigs, the pigs work is a good marker of we're definitely not in Jewish territory. Right? 

Yeah. 

John: [00:23:58] For sure for sure. No, I do think that's a lovely little because the other gospel writers, Matthew very much leans into the idea of Jesus giving priority to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and rightly so, and there is a trajectory there. Luke is absolutely passionate for the margins and a love mark here.

Just gluing the two ideas really nicely together with it. It's really easy to miss that. It's and it, it it's, it's only when, again, you're reading the text in a bit of a big flow, you go, oh, okay. He's, he's popped from a Jewish context into a Gentile one, but he's doing the cm sort of stuff. And I love that.

David: [00:24:39] And so talking about those contracts, then I want to talk very briefly about what seems like a marginal anticlimax in the, in this story, which but a beautiful anticlimax. So like I'm noticing around about. Two and three and you see this particularly strongly in the original language, but it's there for us as well.

Is this kind of this compounding of negatives that stress quite strongly that this man is out of money. So yeah. He, he is, he's no longer he, no one, not even they, they, they can't restrain him. They can't change them up. The no one strong enough, there's this, this strong sort of building of this is a bad situation that we can, that we can't fix.

And then and there might be, then there's some things that we should want to say about the interim versus, but just notice this while we're talking about these contract, the, the man's house and bruising, he sees Jesus from a distance and he runs. And bows down before it. So, so mark, doesn't hold you in a lot of suspense as to how the story's going to go.

So it's like, well, how does Jesus work within Jewish context and Jewish synagogues? Well, he comes in with the message of the kingdom. Demons are cast out demons. Can't share that space. Jesus is able to control the wind and the waves. This is things. And now there's big setup. There's uncontrollable, man, which we find out shortly is, is being controlled by thousands of demons.

And it's a clash between, it's, it's like you've paid your, you've paid your money to sit down and watch the championship fight in the boxing ring. And you've stayed up till 1:00 AM because it's, it's, it's being fought at the other side of the world and you've got your, your popcorn and all of your friends have gathered round and their fight starts and, and it's over within seconds, there's the that he, this man comes and he bows down.

There's some, some translations have, have he fell down. And he fell at Jesus' feet. It's quite interesting, actually, that throat chapter five, you have the, this man falling, you have a gyrus falling at Jesus' feet and you also have the woman falling at Jesus' feet, but it's just worth noting.

The only thing it's subtly different is that when gyrus and the woman fall, it, the language is literally they fell at Jesus's feet. But when this man comes to Jesus, what he does, mark describes as  the Greek word , which means worshiped. So this is not just a collapse of thing. He actually is drawn, not simply to admit defeat, but this man oppressed by demons now worshiped Jesus.

I think there's something there.

John: [00:27:24] I do. I think it's a beautiful, beautiful pick up there, David, because that stuff is so easily missed in our, into English translations. Cause you read those three freezes that all look very similar falling at the feet of, and we go, oh Yeah.

well it's just to see him thing, but there is that beautiful difference of course.

And literally translated. Of course the word is literally towards the kiss. I mean, it is quite a powerful sort of imagery behind what's going on here. There, is there something within the ma. That is responding to the presence of Jesus. And of course, then we, we end up going into a very interesting conversation, which seems to jump between sort of the man And, the demons in the singular and the plural.

And it's all sort of bouncing around there. But, but I think so, the way I would want to read this is that I think we see a man here to even end the, in the darkness of his experience. He is seeing enough light in Jesus that he physically maneuvers himself. So if that, so so that's called back to this idea that you've already picked up on, which I love this idea that mark is setting up this scenario, that, that Jesus the presence of God and the presence of the demonic can't share the cm space.

David: [00:28:51] Hmm.

John: [00:28:52] So then the man moving towards Jesus. That, that can't be the demons doing that, that the demons and their conversation with Jesus are trying to get away from Jesus. In fact, that there's sort of nuclear option is okay, dump it in the pigs, but just don't send us out of the area, but you can dump us into pigs because when they get into the pigs, they can get away from Jesus, which of course they try to do.

Here's the man running to Jesus. Now, the only way I can square that circle if demons and Jesus can't occupy the same space, or certainly if demons don't want to occupy the same space as Jesus, then, then it's not the demons moving towards Jesus. It's the man. And even in his possessed, broken, desperate devastating context, he is physically.

Moving and, and the text seems to suggest that these demons just cause this, man to cut himself and hurt himself and do all sorts of terrible things to himself. The impression you're given is they overpower him. They make him do, but he doesn't want to do, but here's the man. It seems to me, David is doing something that he didn't want to do.

He is literally, it's like, it's like he sees a light at the darkness. I've got to get to that light, even if it kills me to do it. And, and I, and I think that's, I think Mark's use of prosecutor. Nao is, is leaning into that. I, and, and I think if you grabbed the idea, it's, it's too much to say maybe worship in the sense that we understand, but I think it is enough to say here's a man.

He sees something and he moves towards Jesus. In spite of the demons inside him, he's desperate to get the job. 

David: [00:30:44] so then you get this this coming versation which is quite, which is quite some of the, what do you have to do with me? Jesus, son of the most high God. So sorry. No, well, this is quite interesting here because you get this this narrow appeal here's to be the, the, the demons are now talking, right.

Have you come to torment us? Now a couple of things that we're interested in here, John, I'd love to pick up on one. Just that that perception of torment is some irony. No, they have been, they have been destroying this man in tremendous thing, this man, and their first question to Jesus, to almost, is what have you come to do the same to us?

There's something fairly classically biblical about that, that the demons assume that God has the same agenda as they have. You see this in the temptations of Jesus early on in his ministry, where, where the Satan offers Jesus. All of these powers, assuming that Jesus is essentially on the same journey as he is.

And this is a common problem of evil in the Bible. That, and it's actually a common problem of evil in the world. Isn't it? That, that the Christianity that follows Jesus can quickly be perceived to have the same agenda, but just to do the same thing slightly differently, and one, and sometimes the church I feel gets lost in that assuming.

Well, we're just trying to do the same thing for a different reason. And the constant ministry of Jesus is no, he's trying to do a different thing. He's trying to do 

things differently. The way, the way the ministry of Jesus reached success, like a very easy, let me, let me pick on some low hanging fruit for a second, but the way that the society judges success has often become the way that church chooses to judge success.

If a church is bigger, richer, and fancier, that clearly is a better church than a church that smaller, poor and not so fancy. And you've accidentally stepped over into assuming that the kingdom is motivated in exactly the same way. Whereas wider society. You see this again here? Well, you must be here too.

We terminate people all the time, so you must be here. It's torment us. It's a very interesting thing. There's also a little, a little potential. Yeah. Interesting. Hint. Back in the old Testament where. In Zechariah 13, you get this sort of prophetic, look as a cry 13 too. You get this sort of prophetic look to the day of the Lord and what will happen.

And the Lord says on that day, I'll cuts off the names of the idols from the land. And you get a lot of idle, demonic connection in, in, in, in Jewish thinking at that point. So there'll be remembered no more. And I will also remove from the land, the prophets and the, the ruach of impurity, the spirit of impurity.

So is it possible that you've got this kind of background of, of. Of knowledge within this context that if, if the demons have identified who Jesus is, is there a sense of the math of the equation is, wait a minute, if he's here, that means that we're not going to be here very soon,  

John: [00:33:56] absolutely. And of course there's a beautiful irony that maybe before a lot of humans start to spot who Jesus is within space of the market and context. It's the demons that are spotting it and actually in a weird way, they're sort of, this is going to sound perverse.

Please don't hear what I'm not saying in a weird way. They're sort of the  for him. So, so they are declaring who he is. I mean, even in the mark one situation, he literally tells him to shut up. He tells him be quiet. I don't, I don't want you to say this. So 

David: [00:34:31] Oh, the Greek in that context, he actually, Jesus says to him be muzzled, which I always think is brilliant. He actually, that often gets translated as be quieter, but the Greek is be muzzled, which is interesting how Jesus there's maybe some talk about one day about how Jesus talks to demons, , he shuts them down and he doesn't give them space to keep tormenting people.

John: [00:34:52] Mm Hmm.

And of course, if, if you link something like Zachariah into mark, then we are given a very clear understanding of what this kingdom is starting to look like. What the agenda is what Jesus is here really to do what, what he's here to cut off or cut away.

And, and th the demonic forces clearly understand somethings on and therefore are, are begging as it were for mercy before this thing gets going. So, so I, I think it does. It leans into the sort of wider agenda of an understanding of the kingdom and the fact that in the early part of March, it's the demons that are actually given us the big clues as to who Jesus is and what he's here to do.

So I think it's a beautiful idea. And of course the irony it's Okay.

for us to torment him, but you don't torment us. Don't don't do to ask what we've done to, I mean, isn't it, they, they they've, they've destroyed this man within an inch of his life, but, but don't torture our son. Of course, Jesus, his agenda is not in the torturing of the demonic, but his agenda is in the liberation of humanity.

And, and he doesn't, it seems to me, Jesus, doesn't go way out of his way to hunt the demonic, but it, but it seems to me that in doing the kingdom, he collates with the demonic constantly. And and I think, again, it's another little nuance with it. 

David: [00:36:18] Even as you were saying that, John, it just struck me that the golden rule do to others as you would have them do to you w w you get this implied opposite of how evil works. So what is the way of God? One of the things that Jesus says is what, do to others as you would, as you would have them do to you.

And then here you have the forces of evil saying, don't do to us what we've been doing to everybody else. I mean, that's not explicitly present in the text for sure, but it just strikes me as an interesting potential connection 

there. And I love what you're saying about you. This identification of Jesus.

It's something that I have long enjoyed in the way mark structures, his gospel, that where he. He tells you in verse one, this is the good news about Jesus Christ, the son of God, but then the identity of Jesus then is a very strange question in Mark's gospel. And ironically enough, as you said, it completely correctly.

Yeah, it's just demons. That spot, who he is and know no human actually spots this. And what's really ironic is there's only one human in all of Mark's gospel that identifies Jesus as the son of God. W w when you say, when I say only one human, I mean, one human, not speaking by demonic powers and it's, it's the Roman Centurion in in, in mark chapter 15, verse 39, this, this century.

And that goes, surely this man was the son of God. And there there's something really ironic there that it's a Roman Centurion who is in the process of, of guarding Jesus he's execution that notice he it. So there is a little art to think about there, about how Jesus relates to power even. You know that this demon runs down the hill and falls at Jesus' feet, Annie.

And all that Jesus has said at this point, is this come out of him. So demons, the forces of evil recognized Jesus humans are a little uncertain and it's something, there's something beautiful about the fact that the only time in Mark's gospel or the first time that a human recognizes Jesus as the son of God is as he dies.

And it's, again, I feel like it's this inverting of structures of power that you would assume that people would recognize him as son of God, when he feeds the 5,000, when he walks on water, when he, when he comes the storm, when he raises the dead, when he heals the blind. But none of that in no point in Mark's gospel, do people draw that connection, but when he dies, the people that the man goes or surely, this is the son of God.

And I think Mark's intentionally help drawing us towards those stories to make that point that if you're going to understand Jesus, remember what we talked about. An earlier episode where Jesus says, take up your cross and follow me is when he describes who he is. It's that journey of the cross.

That takes us to the understanding of Jesus. 

John: [00:39:15] Yeah. Yeah.

totally. I I'm and it's, it is a beautiful idea that nature recognizes him. The demonic recognizes him. People are a little bit slower to recognize him. And yet even within the gospel accounts, sometimes it's Gentiles who are recognizing him before his own people. John of course picks this up very, very starkly.

John says, he came to his own and they didn't recognize him. No, no. I know that sounds like, I sort of totally inclusive term, but of course, John, John is saying that in the general sense that, that he was not recognized even though many did recognize him personally. So I do, I think that tension, I think it's one of the dangers we have when we read back into the gospels, we just assume people are getting this stuff.

My goodness, if this was happening on main street, we would just get this. But it takes people awhile to get this and we move towards an understanding of who Jesus is, especially in Mark's gospel. 

David: [00:40:19] And so then, so then you get this conversation around the person's name. And this seems to be interesting that there is a view in the ancient world that owning that owning the name of something gives you a level of authority over it. You see that right? The way back, even with Moses in country with God the, the burning Bush, there's this sense of about what's your name?

So name gives authority. So there's some sense. I think it's important for the reader to see that, Jesus son of the most high God is a little bit of a power play by the demon as well. I know your name, so, but Jesus, his response then is to say, well, you've, now you've got to tell me your name to which the demon has to seed to Jesus in that it's interesting that demon can't resist Jesus.

He, and you get this. Well, my name is Legion for, we are for, we are many. So legions somewhere between three and 6,000 soldiers in, in those days, 

John: [00:41:11] yeah. Before we even dive even further into that, David, I think there's a lovely little illusion in verse seven itself. The demons say what to me unto you, Jesus, son of God, the most high I a jury, you, 

David: [00:41:27] Hmm, 

John: [00:41:27] I adjure you by God not to torment me now.

That's sort of very literal language art. Most of our translations sort of don't have that. So in my nav it sort of says what do you want with me, Jesus, son of the most high swear to God, you won't touch me. And, I think that takes us slightly in the wrong direction. So the, the language of a jury.

Is, especially in the casting out of demons would have been language, no one in that day, for example, by the religious community, I adjure you by the name. of add-on. I come out by bank. So, so actually the costing out of the demon would probably involve the term or free apology. I adjure you by God, most high.

I adjure you by Adorno Elohim that you've got to come at Alyssa. So isn't it ironic that they try to play the, a juror card on Jesus. They sort of, they're actually trying to play a game here now. I that's probably far too frivolous language, but they're there, I'm leaning into your power stuff. I think there's a power play talked in this verse where the demons are going.

I adjure you. By God. No, no, of course. If, if we're going with this idea that the demons have already spotted who Jesus is, then they know there is, as it were in, in, in, through the incarnation, there's some sort of authority structure here. Jesus though, God is walking in submission to his father. And it's almost as if they're trying to Trump him by appealing to an authority structure above him.

I adjure you by God. Now isn't that fascinating? 

It's a little bit, it's a bit cheeky. Like it's a bit in England. We would set a bit brass neck. Isn't it? It's like, it's like, you are really absolutely pushing it there. But, but doesn't it then lean into the idea. We do have a January power struggle going on here.

Because Jesus has, has told them to come out neither a jury in him,

David: [00:43:34] Hm.

John: [00:43:35] Cm language and revert. So I, 

David: [00:43:36] using his name. 

Yeah. 

John: [00:43:39] indeed. It's really fascinating, isn't it?

David: [00:43:42] So you've almost got this sense from what you're saying there, that the demons are using the first century Jewish playbook on how to cast out demons against Jesus. We know your name, and we're now going to use exorcism language to demand that you do some things.

That's quite a, that's quite an  insight.

John: [00:44:01] It's it's I think it's too good to miss. I think it's there. I think it's easy for us to miss, of course, in the 21st century. Why would we know that? But when you dig into the. Language and practices of the first century that really does hang there. And of course what's fascinating is in, in mark five or see it, it, it just says, he was saying to him, you come forth unclean spread over tomorrow night.

Really fascinating. It, that Jesus seems to be acting in his own authority. And at this stage he's not even doing the a juror bit. So again, there's another little beautiful nuance that what they're normally expecting is to be a juror. I adjure you by the name of idol and a commode and here's Jesus or scone.

No, no.

come on Archie. Come, 

David: [00:44:50] Yes. And he doesn't even know their name.

John: [00:44:53] I, at this stage, absolutely. It's it's this, it's this interesting dance that seems to be going on. 

Which just looks like a story to us, but I think there's something very powerful. Cause we're, we're trying to lean in, not just what Jesus did. We're trying to lean into.

What's the messaging here. What's going on? Jesus. Doesn't do anything randomly. So this, this man has been exercised of these demons, but it's, there's, there's something else going on here. And this is one of the most explicit encounters that Jesus has with demonic force in terms of conversation which has gotta be a wee bit of a clue for us, I think. 

David: [00:45:30] Yeah.  I really, really like that, that  insight.  It just adds to the whole sort of picture of the scene. Doesn't it?  It's quite excellent. And no, some, some writers over the years have kind of wondered whether there's something interesting going on with the language of Legion.

There's definitely, mark is contrasting Jesus potentially as. Has some alternative to the Roman Caesar that, the Caesar was known as the son of God. And mark is presenting. I'm here to tell you about Jesus, the son of God, which therefore is why it might be interesting that, that it's a Roman Centurion that declares you.

So there might be an emphatic contrast. It's not surely this was the son of God. It's actually surely this is the son of God, not him. So then you've got this potential little thing that, that mark likes this story here because it, because there's, we're, we're in Greco-Roman context and we're outside of Israel.

So the, the, the demon has a Greek name and the name happens to be, you don't have happens to be the name of of a, of, of a rule. Military outfit in that sense there's so there's, again, this potentially just a subtle, underlying anti powers thing going on here. I wouldn't want to go too far on it.

I, lot of people have made a lot of the Jesus versus Rome stuff, to the extent that some writers even give you the impression that's all that's going on in the Bible, but I can't help. But think there is a very subtle Jesus in the powers edition because of this language here of of, of how is Jesus, the Jesus who will die on a Roman cross is, is facing some of these things earlier in his ministry.

John: [00:47:11] That's beautiful. And uncertainly. It's worth noticing, isn't it? It's like, that is a very unusual word, like of all the words that the demons could have called themselves. Why that word? So, so I think when a word stands out like that, you go, oh, that's interesting. I'm certainly, once you dig into the world of Jesus, the Roman context, that Jesus, at the very least it flags a moment of pause and think about, is there something else going on here?

And I wouldn't push back against that at all. I think that's a beautiful nuance and of course, What's gorgeous that the gospel writers never Sue show Jesus being auntie Roman and a purely sort of racial or political way that, that if he does set himself up against room, it's purely in terms of the kingdom of God.

It's never in terms of right. I'm here to overthrow Rome. Although ultimate the kingdom of God does love Rome, 

David: [00:48:11] yes,

John: [00:48:12] which is magnificent. But, but it's not as agenda. He's he's not trying to score any points against pilot or any other authorities, but gorgeous little you wants. They're beautiful. I love that, David.

Very nice. 

David: [00:48:24] And so, so then, so you get this, this scene just the complete manic. Is there a sense of the scene, the spirits come out, the, enter, the pigs, they rush down and jump in or drowned in the seat. It's it's quite, there's a part of me, John. I'm not even really sure what, what to say about this part of the scene, other than it's just, just it's, it's just quite the only thing I can sort of kind of put together there is there's something going on here again, once since we've talked about the powers and, and, and this contrasting percents of the powers, and then you get Jesus, allowing them to go into these pigs and, and just.

The grandness of this. Now we actually see the Jesus has been very understated throughout all of this. The man is screaming at the top of his vice Jesus is talking to him. They're trying to use excesses and language against Jesus. Jesus is just operating calmly in his own power. And then you just get this little moment of insight in contrast, perhaps with the calming of the winds and the waves you get.

Oh, Jesus actually can move the demons from this man elsewhere and charge off into the sea. Do you see what I'm kind of scratching out a little bit there?

John: [00:49:44] Absolutely. I I've always found this a little bit difficult from understanding the complete trauma to the economy of whoever owned the place. 

David: [00:49:54] yes.

John: [00:49:55] mean, it,  if we ignore that we do, or we do ignore a pretty awkward moment in this story. So we've got the glory of the redemption and transformation of this man.

I mean, he is transformed, but at the cost of someone's livelihood in some way now, I know people may not appreciate this, but like two thirds, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of money that has just rush down the hill. I remember a friend of mine. He used to minister in Donegall Alan Graham.

Who's no, Michigan's in Barwon. Our church supported him and we went round. The schools have done a goal rural Donegal to do. Child evangelism. And the school is fantastic time. And Alan was teaching the story of the Tucson's the loss on. Or of course for him, it was the, the product Eleni. He said, he said, he said that that the product goes lion with these pigs and it wants to eat the pods of the pigs.

And Alan's trying to share this terrible scene with these pigs. He said, wouldn't it be awful to be surrounded by pigs? And honestly, David, that what happened next was glorious. We boy put his hand up and and Alan says, Yes. he says, Mr. Greer. He says, Mr cream, there's great money in pigs. He says, I thought, Yeah.

only a kid in the rural community would get them. 

David: [00:51:19] Yes. 

John: [00:51:20] Me and you, the only time we think about peg is when it's on our plate. If we eat peg, many, many of our listeners won't touch it. But, but, but you know, that's the only thing we think about pig bud, but this is serious money. So it is a hard one. Why does G permit them to go into the pigs and destroy or at least impact someone's livelihood?

Is it simply to create this massive moment of drama that then actually ironically opens up the pathway for the gospel in that region? Which of course we know from the trajectory of the end of this story in the mark, six are, I mean, amazing things clearly start to happen in that the capitalists and the 10 cities because of this.

And it almost takes this shocking. 

David: [00:52:10] Okay.

John: [00:52:11] Moment to jolt this community out. Of course, there is, there is nothing granny would have said, it's the thread of execution concentrates, the main, there's nothing that's going to get your attention more than, than economic disturbance in your region. And that seems that actually though, there was an initial backlash, it does seem to create the weight for the gospel, but it's a hard one.

David: [00:52:36] Yeah, it is. I mean, the only other thing that I would add to it is that reading this story as, as a, as a Jewish Messiah, you have a man who has a, an impure spirits and of course, pigs are impure animals now. And I get that. We're not in Israel at this point, but if you're, if you're reading this from a Jewish point of view, this might actually.

Almost makes sense that the, the impure spirit attaches itself to the impure animal and both are destroyed. So there's a potentially a symbolic way of reading this, which is definitely the visual destruction of impurity at a grand scale, almost a preceding preceding God's grand destruction of evil, which is coming on the cross.

I mean that, but like you say, that doesn't, that doesn't take away from the, the poor people who, who lost all of their pigs and therefore come back quite rightly and say to Jesus, maybe, maybe you could go somewhere else. Jesus, 

John: [00:53:42] Lost yeah, absolutely. It's, a begging language, isn't it? It's it's at the cm sort of verocity that, that the demons begged to be, let go into the, into the pigs. They're sort of saying to Jesus by the end of this story leave us, get out of here. Leave our region.

I think it was a beautiful little play on the sort of imagery of begging you to the demons bag. The man who's, who's released from the demons he begs the people sort of beg it. I mean, there's beautiful, beautiful language sort of knocking around than this. And, and I do love that sort of juxtaposition there in, in all of that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's incredible. Incredible. 

David: [00:54:24] So, so like verse 15, they come to Jesus. So seventies, the poor swine herds. They're like, oh my goodness. So they head off to the city to tell everybody what's going on. The people there. They find out that this is actually right, our pigs are gone and they see Jesus and the demoniac, it's fascinating.

This is the first time the man is called the demoniac in the text. And actually it's at the point that demon has been evicted from him. They saw him sitting there and then you get this sitting th the, the, again, the Greek is really quite punchy, the way the Greek does it. You sort of a sitting clothed in his right mind.

It's a three category serve. It's a three, it's the complete reversal of him. In, in, when we met the man, he is, he is roaming around the tombs unrestrained. Now he's sitting, he's slashed and cut and you get the sense that clearly he was not well dressed in this sort of sense.

And he was out of his mind and Jesus has completely reversed this 

John: [00:55:26] That's beautiful. 

David: [00:55:27] And then again, still not knowing what to call the man. He now becomes the man who had had the Legion and then you get, and then the, you get this lane and they we're afraid. 

John: [00:55:38] Yeah, 

David: [00:55:38] Now maybe it's some of their fear. Oh my goodness.

If this man comes into our city, we're gonna have no animals left anywhere. Is it just the basic and I'll make fear. Is it fear at work? I didn't think anybody could restrain this man. And not only has Jesus not restrained him, he has actually healed him. So it's not becoming, Jesus has got him in some good chains and Jesus is saying, you need these chains from the other side of the sea that you can get in Galilee, but actually better than restraining the man Jesus has, has, has cured him.

It's 

John: [00:56:13] Absolutely beautiful. And, I love that contrast in how he's introduced to how he knows his and the reaction. And again, I think the reaction of the people in the capitalists is, is a repeated sort of nuance in all of the gospel. Jesus does some stuff and you just expect everybody to go, wow, that's amazing.

We need a bit more of that. That's that's a bit, and yet, so often when Jesus does stuff, either even in a Jewish context or a Gentile context, he gets an adverse reaction. So, they, they were afraid. I do sense. I mean, for me, I would lean in to the ID. You couldn't, you couldn't build your hosts on this explicitly, but I would lean into the idea of fear of wow.

Something something way above our pay grade has just happened here. We are seeing something that none of us have ever seen before this month was completely wild and no look at him. And I think there's a general, a general fear comes on. And then of course in 17, they began to beg him to depart cm languages, the demons who begged to be sent into the region.

So you, so, so is that a little nuance there that sort of in the way that the demons are going, okay, we need to get out of your space. No, the people are saying you need to get out of our space. We need your away from us. Get away from us. We're not ready for whatever this is. We're very impressed by what you've just.

But like we are, we are totally not ready for whatever this is. And of course we know there will come a day when they will be ready. Mark picks out up beautifully in chapter six. And maybe this man is part of that story. I'm fairly certain he is. But at this moment, they're begging Jesus in the cm language of the demons get out of here.

And I love that contrast again, this, this is a passage of beautiful contrast and connections, which we're seeing everywhere. The demons can't stay in the same space as Jesus know that people don't want Jesus to stay in the same space as them. It's fascinating. Fascinating reaction. 

David: [00:58:34] I did the whole, the whole, thing's quite funny actually, at some level, like this story, the story is beautiful. Right? I love this story. You said it right after you read it. The stories got a lot of scary elements to it, but it is a beautiful story. It's even John, it's even beautiful that we see Jesus. In what we know come to believe would be his standard miraculous ministry that he has.

He's the individual has been separated from the group has been cast out, has been marginalized and, and Jesus isn't drawn first to the group, but he's drawn first to this marginalized situation. So again, we're seeing the same sort of patterns happening, but, but there's a humor even to the story, if you actually just remember, and I don't know, I just love reading the Bible in its way as to how it works sometimes.

And we can get so intensely focused on stuff that we, we forget sometimes that just a little bit nuances of the story. So they've gotten a boat they've sailed through a storm. Jesus has had to miraculously calm the storm, right. They go out of the boat, they met this man. They healed him. And now they're getting back in the boat to head back where they came from.

There's there's almost a sense of what yeah. I think give the realism to the story at that level that this ministry has completely been halted. It's it's like, let's go over there and do something. We crossed, we crossed the sea at some great peril. And it, I almost imagine this whole scene happens kind of close to the beach where they they're.

So, so then they come back there and jump on the boat and they have to head away again. But actually that becomes really important to me. You've just alluded to it and I it's one of my favorite bits of this story is they're getting back into the boat and the man still hasn't got a name. So now he's just known as the man who had been possessed by a team.

And talk about your past chasing you around, right. He now comes and notice, just notice what's going on there in. In verse 18 again, and look what he does. He know bags again, but this time a different bagging this time. It's that actually, I want to be with you. Jesus. And Jesus instead says to him, no Jesus refused, right?

Like, goodness me. He refused to, so this is all we would expect at this point in the story. If you just try and lead it, read it plainly, Jesus has come. Nobody likes him in this place. This man's realized Jesus really is quite something special. So the man says, I want to follow you, Jesus. I want to be with you, Jesus.

And we would assume Jesus would say, absolutely, leave your past life behind, come follow me. Cause that's what we're saying. But instead Jesus Christ. No is it says instead go home. So your friends and tell them how much the Lord has done for you and what mercy he has shown. Okay. Now I'm cautious to say these here, John.

Right? Because both you and me have been strong proponents of biblical education and discipleship and ministry training for our whole lives. But Jesus sends this man off with no training whatsoever. All he has is a story. All the men has is a story that, oh yeah, I was, I was the guy, I was the guy. We don't know what his name was.

I was the guy that used to be possessed by a Legion of demons. And I met Jesus and now I'm not possessed by a Legion of demons. What else do you know about him? He was merciful to me. 

John: [01:02:00] Yup. 

David: [01:02:01] And that's all he's got, that's all the 

man has and, and, and Jesus goes away, but the man verse 20, he went away and he began to proclaim in the Decapolis the region of the 10 cities, this Gentile region, how much Jesus had done for him.

And everyone was amazed. No, no, the thing is, so you've alluded to this and so let's just jump to it really, really quickly though, John, because it's just too much fun not to. So Jesus later on, so let's just turn over to mark chapter seven in our texts for a second and, and it right up at verse 31 you get, so Jesus has now gone through a few other scenarios and healings and things like that.

And then the text in verse 31 says this, then he returned from the region of tire and went by the way of Sidon towards the sea of Galilee. In the region of the Decapolis. So this is the next mention of the capitalists. We don't, we've, we've, we've not sure what's going on through there and notice what happens.

Like the people they brought to him, a deaf man who had an impediment in his speech and they bagged him. Look at that word again, begged him to lay his hands. On him. And I just love this sense, John, that the F the first time we see Jesus in the Decapolis, they're like, you need to go away from here. The second time we see Jesus in the Decapolis, is people going, you got to help us.

Cause we know you can. And just taking Mark's text as mark text is given to us, the only connection, the only thing we know is that Jesus left this unnamed man in the Decapolis and somewhere between visit one and visit two, the people went from, you've got to get out of here to, we need your help. 

and and I just love the idea that this untrained man, who all he had was his authentic story, tells his authentic story and something changes in the region of the 10 cities.

I mean, it's good stuff that John isn't 

John: [01:03:57] It's too good. It's too good. David. It's it's gorgeous. It's brilliant. It's magnificent. And doesn't it.

show again? One of the things we leaned into in the parables was Jesus' Supreme confidence in the seed Supreme confidence in the word of God and what that does and people

 and actually there's a, there's a gorgeous still in between bit between  mark five on mark seven, David, there's a, that you've referenced the explicit to capitalists, but it actually at the end of mark six as well, it's almost like it's, it's a, an emphasis here.

And it says at the end of mark six, when they'd crossed over and landed, I think in a good Nasser, it and anchored there. And as soon as they got out of the boat, people recognized him. That's interesting. And then at the end it says, end of the passage, it says they begged him to let them touch even the edge it was closed.

So, so you've got, if our listeners can put all of this together, it is just magnificent. We've got the begging, of the demons don't touch us. You've got the begging of the mine helped me. You've got neither man begging to go with Jesus and the people begging Jesus to leave. I know we've got the kingdom of God spread in and they're begging him to stay under, begging him to behave.

It's just, it's just stunning. It's just stunning. And, and that runs as a beautiful little subtext there. That's definitely worth picking up on Jesus' ministry into that, the capitalists. And again, it leans into this idea that Jesus, wasn't just preoccupied with exclusively the Lordship with the lost sheep of the host of Israel, but was opening up a pathway for the Gentile world.

And and of course, Galilee of the Gentiles becomes the grip platform for that, of which of the capitalists gets the benefit.

David: [01:05:50] It's it is when you look at it and put all those pieces together and kind of string them all, all, in line, it is just a phenomenal little text that we've just looked at today that that just sort of pushes into the power of Jesus, the mercy of Jesus. And, just the, the story of what it's like to encounter that, that Jesus.

John: [01:06:12] Incredible. And,  for me divot, there's a lovely little, just a lovely little finish, like in mark five, but I just spot it. We we've talked about the fact that the people were afraid in verse 16 it,

says they, they when they saw the man sitting in his right mind, they were afraid.

And then at the end, in verse 20, as he goes a boat, they marveled, they were amazed. And, and what a beautiful thing that people could go from being a free. Of something that they don't understand to then Marvel at something. And ultimately, I, think Jesus wants to take the world from fear, a boat, him, or fear about themselves and lead them to a place where they Marvel, where they wonder.

And, and again, I think it's just a lovely little contrast there read at the end of our story, which just grabbed me as I was reflecting on it.

 Closing: [01:07:09] Okay. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed being with us. If you want to get in touch with either office about something that we said, then don't forget. You can reach out to us and podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the two techs podcast on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. 

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We'll be back on Thursday with our second text for this week. But until then, Goodbye.