They Were Both Daughters | Miracles 6

In which John and David talk about an ill woman and Jairus' daughter. A woman and a little girl from different places in life, both struggling, both meet Jesus, both are healed. You know there's lots to talk about with that, right?

• Click Here to read the text from Mark 5:1-20. 
• Click Here to learn about Matthew Thiessen's book "Jesus and the Forces of Death".

Episode Outline

• 3:00 Mark 5
• 7:08 Ritual Impurity
• 13:44 What does a Gospel author do?
• 22:11 The touch of Jesus
• 34:51 An automatic miracle?
• 41:22 Interruptions
• 56:44 The messianic secret

The next episode of Two Texts will be on Tuesday August 3. 

Episode 23 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 6

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Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Chapters

• 3:00 Mark 5
• 7:08 Ritual Impurity
• 13:44 What does a Gospel author do?
• 22:11 The touch of Jesus
• 34:51 An automatic miracle?
• 41:22 Interruptions
• 56:44 The messianic secret

Transcript

This Transcript is Auto-Generated by Descript.com

intro: [00:00:00] Hi there. And welcome to the two texts podcast. I'm David Harvey and I'm here with my cohost, John Andrews. The two of us from two different countries are here for the second time. This week to talk to you about another text from our miracles season. And this today is episode six and it's called. They were both daughters.  

John: [00:00:35] Well, hi David. It is one wonderful to be back again, and we are dipping into our second part of mark chapter five. Wow. We had a blast thinking about Legion and Jesus delivering this in this manner, this incredible story in the early part of mark chapter five, and we're sort of gonna lean in into the second part of that.

Having looked in our previous episode this man's story, we're not going to look at two stories involving women  an older woman and a younger woman, and ,and hopefully complete this incredible reflection on, on chapter five. So, so shall I hand it over to you and you can read it.

Four is from mark chapter five from around the boat. Is it 20 verse 22 onwards? I think.

David: [00:01:24] Let's, let's begin March 21, just cross over from our last episode, actually Jesus has been doing a chunk of sailing in mark chapter four and five. And as we pointed out in the last episode, they're basically just sailing back and forward across the same bit  of the sea.

So, so yeah, verse 21 of mark five should Jesus crossed again in the boat to the other side, a great crowd gathered around him and he was by the sea. So it's quite interesting. You've got the contrast actually from our last episode that Jesus has been ejected from the region he was in. By the time he gets back to cross to the other side, closer to home.

Now there's a big crowd waiting for

John: [00:01:59] Mm

David: [00:02:00] So let's pick this up from verse 22. Then John is one of. Somebody's going to somebody is going to send me an email one day and say, David says this about every verse that he reads, but one of my favorites that, well actually I'll tell you this, John, just out of interest, maybe it's not of interest. The reason this passage  is one of my personal favorites, goes back to my first year in seminary when I was learning Greek. And this passage of Mark's gospel is the first time in my life that I was looking at a text in the original language and saw things I'd never seen before.

And I remember sitting with my Greek texts. It was hard work for me cause I was still learning it by saw some things. And I remember thinking I've got to get better at this because, because this is amazing. And so, so there's a deep, personal sense of this story for me, that, that when I, it was one of my first kind of deep dives into into scripture.

John: [00:02:55] Beautiful.

David: [00:02:55] With that little bit of autobiography over it, let's go into the actual brilliance of the text. So then verse 22 of mark five, then one of the leaders of the synagogue named gyrus came and when he saw him fell at his feet and begged him repeatedly, my little daughter is at the point of death, come and lay your hands on her so that she may be made well and live.

So he went with him and a large crowd followed him and pressed in on him. Now, there was a woman who had been suffering from hemorrhages for 12 years. She didn't do it much under many physicians and had spent all that she had, and she was no better, but rather grew worse. She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak for, she said, if I, but touch his clothes, I will be made.

Immediately her hemorrhage stopped. And she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. Immediately aware that power had gone forth from him. Jesus turned about in the crowd and said, who touched my clothes? And his disciples said to him, you see the crowd pressing in on you. How can you say, who touched me?

And he looked all around to see who had done it. But the woman knowing what had happened to her came in fear and trembling fell down before him and told him the whole truth. He said to her daughter, your faith has made you well, go in peace and be healed of your disease. But while he was still speaking, some people came from the leader's house to see your daughter is dead.

Why trouble the teacher any further, but over hearing what they said, Jesus said to the leader of the synagogue, do not. Only belief. He allowed no one to follow him except Peter James and John, the brother of James. And when they came to the house of the leader of the synagogue, he saw commotion people, weeping and wailing loudly.

And when he had entered, he said to them, why do you make a commotion? And weep, the child is not dead but sleeping. And they laughed at him. And then he put them all outside and took the child's father and mother. And those who were with him and went in to where the child was. He took her by the hand and said to her Talitha Coombe, which means little girl get up.

And immediately the girl got up and began to walk about. She was 12 years of age at this. They were overcome with amazement and he strictly ordered them that no one should know this. And he told them to give her something to eat.

John: [00:05:45] come on, give her something to eat.

David: [00:05:50] just, it's just brilliant. Don't forget if you're ever raised from the dead, have a snack.

John: [00:05:56] Eight something eight, something absolutely. Make it healthy though, make it healthy. But yeah, absolutely. Even as you read that, I moved to new, I, I, I I've been reading in church of, of being a follower of Jesus consciously as a follower, since I was eight years old and hearing those two stories, right.

Again, I am just moved with the compassion of Jesus and also the sense of need that's felt, the story of the woman that you could get the overwhelming sense of her need her brokenness, her desperation and how Jesus ultimately. Is tender towards that, even though he's, he's a bystander to begin with.

And then this gorgeous no, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm going to get the germs as hosts and we are gonna raise this girl where I just, I just love, yeah. I, I just love the Jesus. I see in that there that we're going to dig in and, and get a bit more what, that's just, this is gorgeous. It's absolutely beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah.

David: [00:07:08] And so we probably spend most of this episode talking about how much we just love all of the little things in this text. So big contrast just for a second, going back to our previous episode, we had a Gentile man oppressed by an impure spirit in Agenta region, hanging out in the tombs. They crossed the leak and now we have a synagogue leader.

So a man of service. Societal influence a man of some social status, a Jewish man in a Jewish region, in a very Jewish job for, for, for one of a term, like notice the contrast that mark is just drawing for us here. The Jesus who goes to this man is also the Jesus who comes to this man, just in case you don't get that.

We're going to insert into the middle of this story, a marginalized poor person all once again. And of course just tie I I've been, I've been reading a really fascinating book of late by, by Matthew. Tiesen  he wrote a book called Jesus and the forces of death. And it's really interesting cause he looks through a lot of these stories in, in mark chapter five. And one of the things he notices is that between the story of our last episode, about the, the demoniac in the Gary Sinise and then gyrus his daughter, and then this woman ritual impurity is a thet thread through all of them.

It's an impure spirit. The daughter turns up dead. So it's a corpse. The, the woman has, has this 12 year long hemorrhage, which would be an abnormal at sort of bodily emission, therefore creating ritual, permanent ritual impurity. So there's something going on. We might want to come back to that at some points, but there's also a thread.

So there's a thread between the status of the people fluctuating that, but there's also a thread of, of, of them all navigating perceptions of what would be called ritual impurity.

John: [00:09:07] Yeah, really good. And I think actually Jarris himself is a, is a grit sort of jewel thing of that idea. So we, we've left the impurity into purity context of the two capitalists and of course it's interest that describes gyrus as a synagogue ruler.

David: [00:09:25] Oh

John: [00:09:26] is a suggestion. If the synagogue rulers may have been lay people, but also you may have had local food he's leading.

No, that would be an interesting one, indoor little sort of Jesus and Pharisee conversation. If, if Jarris is a Pharisee the table F w we don't want to, we don't want to build our hosts on, on silence here. But if gyrus is a Pharisee, then you've got a very, very interesting moment. So, so you've got this unclean M pure spirit in the early part of five, and then you've got this man.

Absolutely. Effie is a Pharisee committed to absolute purity. I mean, Pharisee means separated one. But of course, if he is a Pharisee not just a synagogue ruler, then, then falling at the feet of Jesus, something big going on there. I, I, I catch the spirit there of nicotine was coming to Jesus in John three.

We know, we know we knew, we knew you're a man sent from God. There's, there was a bunch of them, you and for one reason or another, weren't always coming out in public. Here's Jarris forced by pure on adulterated desperation. Ah, right. Okay. If this guy can do half the stuff that we're hearing he can do, then I don't care who he is.

I don't care what's going on here. I need him to get back to my hoax and heal my daughter. So, so you certainly then have this incredible moment where maybe this man would have been, I would have kept a distance from Jesus, but now his own desperate situation forces him to kind of say swallow was prayed.

Maybe that's too strong, but certainly humble himself before this Galilean rabbi and say, please, I need your help. You have to come and help me. And a do I love that jolt the demonized man, running to Jesus and, worshiping him and, and maybe a small w there. And I gyrus coming to him and begging him falling at his feet and begging, I love that.

I love that.

David: [00:11:36] If you've listened to the previous episode, this language of bagging appearing once again,

John: [00:11:41] seam, same language, same word being used all the way through their parakaleo. Yeah. It's beautiful.

David: [00:11:45] And so little, little point of note, w what gyrus actually says  then, so 

so my little daughter is at the point of death.

John: [00:11:53] Yeah. I mean, I think for me, there are two things within this I think obviously at a macro level. Oh my goodness. I'm a dad. I'm the, I'm a granddad, on my little, you just, you, you feel, you feel. The pen of a father crying little daughter, but then there's this cautious contrast as we're gonna lean into later on when, when the woman gets healed and Jesus calls her daughter, or they're just, I struggled to control myself.

No, I just don't think that's, I don't think that's an accident. I, Jesus has been summoned to the house of the man whose little daughter is dead or dying at the stage. And then he tenderly ministers to a woman who probably in a long time has never heard someone called her.

David: [00:12:45] Yeah.

John: [00:12:45] Because she's been ostracized and marginalized and has been probably perpetually unclean and it's taken a risk to just be in that crowd.

And he, when Jesus discovers her, he says, daughter, I just, I love this. And I think that lovely tension and contrast in the text the, the focus goes from a wild man to, to a little daughter and a daughter. And as we've reflected on before David, I think these gospel writers are just much more clever than we give them credit for.

Sometimes we just see them as storytellers. And I think, Aw, that feels like, that feels like a deliberate, just connecting of these beautiful threads. And I I'm, I'm very drawn into. The desperation of a dad and the tenderness of Jesus to, to both women in question. Yeah. Lovely

David: [00:13:44] Well,  let's just, let's just talk a little bit about hermeneutics  for a moment, right?  I love the fact that we use the word hermeneutics, it's a Greek word that actually appears in this story. It literally means to translate or to explain.

So later on in verse  41, when Jesus says telephone Coombe, the Greek literally uses that word. And then it says, this is the translation, but hermeneutics has become the term used for how we interpret the Bible. Okay. So something we've said a lot in this podcast has been.

All the gospel writer seems to be doing this. Mark's doing that. Matthew is doing that. And sometimes some readers might be going, oh, wait a minute. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with you putting this weight on Matthew. Maybe this thing, oh no, this is, these are just the words of Jesus you're talking about.

So it's probably important to say, there's the words of Jesus. There's the stories in the happenings, but this is how the gospel writer constructs the stories in terms of I'm going to put this one here and that one there. And we know the gospel, Luke tells us, start with Luke. John tells us that the end of John, that we're doing this with strategies.

Thought. And so the way they line stories up together is important. But, but mark five is a really great example of what, of what we're talking about here, because this stuff that's happening in mark five, that is, that is Jesus talking. And you, and I would want to share a sort of interpretive approach to the Bible that when Jesus talks in the Bible, the gospel writers have done their best, to record that accurately.

Right? So we, we're not trying to undermine that. And some of these people might think, it sounds like you're saying that when we talk about, oh, look at this word matches to that word and the way Mark's lined it up and everything like that, but you get this double level happening marks. It's a really good example to people as to how, how the gospel writer.

Is also doing really important theological work while they tell you a story that, that we would say actually happens right now, if it was a good preacher, John, I would keep this point for the end, but I'm going to say it now too, to help us hermeneutically. So this, so in the words of Jesus and the words of the story, there's this thread of daughter, my little daughter is at the point of death and Jesus turns to the woman and he says, daughter, your faith has made you well.

And while he's saying this, the, people from the leader's house come and say, your daughter, the beautiful, conscious dacha, your faith is what made you well. Yeah, but your daughter's dead, right? So there's this, this horrible clash. That's just in the language of the text. So what you're saying is. I think there's a connection there, David, I think that Jesus's language of little sort of gyrus he's little daughter, Jesus he's language of Dodger.

It's linking these stories together. Okay. So now what we're then I'd love for our listener to see is that you might think, why is John pushing it too far there? Well, I'm going to say no, you're not pushing it too far. Cause look what mark then does in the narrative of the story. So this isn't things that people say in this story, this is mark.

Now painting the picture for you. Notice what he says. There was a woman who had been suffering from hemorrhages for 12 years. That's commentary from mark on the story. So this is not reported speech. This is mark choosing to say, oh, by the way, she was sick for 12 years. And then notice as you look down at verse 42, when the girl is healed, mark decides to tell you again, not necessarily part of the story it's mark that choose to tell is, oh, by the way, this girl was 12 years.

Old. So, so now you've got, I'm probably over-weighting the point here. So forgive me, John, but you've got Jesus drawing, connections of daughter and daughter and daughter. And then you've got mark going. I'm getting on this bandwagon. The, the, the woman was sick for 12 years. The daughter is 12 years old.

Like it's as if Mark's going, I need you to see that these two people are worth exactly, exactly the same to Jesus. You have the marginalized, poor woman and the synagogue leader's daughter. The fact that they are from completely different backgrounds. How does Jesus treat them exactly the same? And so mark kind of, he's done.

He circled them all in highlighter. He's got arrows pointing down. It's as if you say don't miss what I'm trying to say to you here. They're both daughters.

John: [00:18:01] yes. It's

David: [00:18:03] It's. It's awesome. Isn't it?

John: [00:18:04] oh, it's gorgeous. And again, doesn't it show the value. Our listeners will be tired of hearing this from us, but the value of reading sometimes, especially in the gospels, the sweep of the stuff. So don't fall into the trap of just isolating. These stories is, oh, this is the bit where the woman gets healed.

And this is the bit where Jesus raises the girl. There is a sweep to these stories that, that often not, not always, of course, but often connect in the most glorious way. And and I do, I do love that idea. Have those lovely, connected thoughts that are just showing us. And again, it's of course th the, the challenge is not, what we don't want is, oh, isn't that cool?

Isn't that a nice kind of, Ooh, aren't, isn't it great to do schools boards connect, but of course we're leaning into, but why, why do they connect? Is what's going on here? And of course, what you've got in mark five is two females. One, it seems a little girl, so maybe. But mitzvah girl. So, so this is a girl, not a young woman in Jewish culture.

And then you've got a woman, woman, and, and both treat it with generosity and care and love and respect on both swept into this kingdom mandate that Jesus is giving to us. So it's just beautiful. It's not just clever connections. There is a reason for those clever connections that, that the gospel writers want us to get, because that's who Jesus is.

David: [00:19:40] Yeah. And, and you've also got both of them. With impurities, we've alluded to this already and, and not just within the Jewish world throughout the ancient Mediterranean, there's this sense that there are purity records relating to how you deal with, with, with the hemorrhage type situation. That, and he's very vague, mark seaman, you know what Mark's actually describing here?

But you've got this and you've got a corpse in the nature of a dead of a dead girl. So, so this is some things going on with mark of pointing together. We're going to talk about this perhaps later on once we've kind of dug in through the text, Jesus sees relation relationship to impurity which, which sounds like very ancient language.

It might not make a lot of sense to us, but again, this becomes a question of Jesus's relationship to people. Be excluded impurity does, does create periods of distance between you and others in that sort of ancient mindset. You, if somebody was looking for some homework, Leviticus, 15 would be, would be a little bit of homework reading for you, where, where literally this work through of the kind of impurities that can happen from bodily discharges, some of which are abnormal, some of which are normal.

But what they do is that, that these, when you suffer from some sort of discharge, please forgive me, trying to be very cautious with my language, because you may be listening to this in the car with your kids, and you will respect us being, being careful with how we say things. But you know, when, when you're dealing with any bodily fluids for want of a better term, The rules in the old Testament particularly are, are actually connected to their ideas of sacredness.

So it's not that, some of these, some of these things are perfectly normal and perfectly regular, but, but classify you as ritually impure. So that you'll keep your distance from the sacred places in the holy places. They're not rules that are designed to exclude permanently the rules that are designed to preserve a concept of holiness and a concept of purity that I'm going to suggest in this passage, Jesus might be inverting slightly and might be sort of messing around with, at some level, doing something unexpected.

John: [00:22:11]  Picking up your gorgeous thread on that. Isn't it interesting then that in the two women, the little daughter and daughter in these two stories, they both either touch or get touched.

David: [00:22:24] Yes.

John: [00:22:25] that interesting. So, so, so for example, there's no touching in the first part of mark five. So in a Gentile context that wouldn't, that probably wouldn't even be so noticeable if Jesus had touched the mom. And of course he speaks to the demons and the impurity leaves here, there's, there's touching.

So the woman touches the hem of his garment, him really? I mean, you can't separate the two things, so he's, she's touching him. And then he takes her hand, the little girl's hand, the little daughter's

David: [00:23:02] Hmm.

John: [00:23:02] So it is not, it's not gorgeous. So if you've got, if you've got this idea of uncleanness is not just unclean per se, but, but it's an uncleanness to protect sacredness.

Yes. Here's Jesus, the sacred one being touched by unclean and touching unclean. I mean that's and to me that is whoa. That's just, I, I can hard for us 21st century sort of living in Calgary and north Lincolnshire sort of people to pick that up, but your goal, whoa, again, back to mark, back to the tax, back to self stuff, they're trying to say that there's got to be a coincidence or it's got to be not a coincidence that two potentially unclean contacts are seen with touching going on and Jesus remains sacred

David: [00:24:09] Yes.

John: [00:24:10] a day a day.

They become clean. So I'm sorry. I'm getting very emotional. I'm getting more emotional in my old age. I am so sorry,   

David: [00:24:19] I think you're, you're, you're, you're picking up on a, exactly the sort of things that we want to be picking up in this, in this story. That, that generally speaking, , when you. Are ritually impure. Let's use a very up to the moment word. What is, what, what happens to a person when they are encountering a moment of ritual impurity?

Now, let me just be really clear on this Richland purity doesn't mean you've sinned, right? It just is something has happened that, that that means you just need to go through a period of purification or a period of waiting. You go into quarantine, there's a word from the 21st century for us.

So you, you would sorta quarantine yourself away from from folks for, for a little while now. I think it's important that when we talk about it, ritual impurity as well, that we always track that, we're not saying this person's dirty, they're not washing, there's in our minds, purity and cleanliness are kind of the same thing, but in the ancient, well, this is not about cleanliness.

This is about, about religious and ritual purity in that sense. And so one of the things it's important to note is that when. You are ritually impure. There's a purse there basically as a sense that, that, that you are infectious. Right. And, and therefore everything I I'm tempted to riff too much on COVID related things here, John, like what is the, our number of ritual impurity or something like that.

But, but you know, if you are ritually impure, anything you touch has the potential to be ritually impure as well. And there's even discussion within the Jewish literature about what then happens to the people who then touch that stuff. So, and, and in some cases, there's this perception that it really is infectious.

So the ritually impure person touches them. The chair and then somebody else touches the chair. They're now impure. So this kind of high infectiousness potential about ritual impurity for this woman, the nature of her illness and and sickness is that, that she will have been ritually impure for 12 years.

So this means it's highly unlikely. She's gone to the synagogue. She won't have taken part in any sacred practices. She will not be under Jewish law. Allowed to have children during this time. There's, so there's preventions between what her husband and hers relationships can be. There's th th the, if she has children already the text, doesn't tell us this, but if she has children, our inability to touch them, imagine like, if you, we don't have this in the text, but if she does have children and she's not hugged them for 12 years, if she has a husband, she's not been with him for 12 years, she has, she is living an isolated life, unless somebody is willing to accept the ritual impurity of being with her.

Right. And being around her and being her friend. So, so there's, and then contracting this, you have a gyrus, his daughter who is dead which also is, I can't say this without sounding like I'm trying to be ridiculous and facetious, but also has completely cut you off from people. But there's a sense in which this woman, her womb is dead at some level because she something's very catastrophic, really wrong that she's going to be prevented from having children at some level.

Her existence is towards debt because she's completely cut off from relationship and interaction with people. So again, you see these two stories they're kind of in the same space with each other. And the fascinating thing, however, is that she reaches out and touches Jesus, which is really brave because technically speaking, that should cause Jesus to become impure.

Similarly, when Jesus reached out, reaches out and touches Jerry's his daughter's hand, Jesus should become impure. Of course, the text tells us a different story.

John: [00:28:32] Yeah. It's yeah, it's so good. I mean, there's very little diehard that I debit in terms of your summary. I think, I think that's the benefit of slowing this story, dine connecting it to its culture, to the moment that it lives in. And this is not always easy for us in the 21st century. We, we, we need to do it, but a time travel and detective work, but it's worth the effort because then it takes these stories to a whole dynamic new level that, that, that this isn't just a random thing, but something powerful is being communicated about who Jesus is and he is providing wholeness.

Kind of say in the proper sense of the word purity I, nowhere near a temple we're, we're nowhere near a synagogue. We're newer, he is, he is taking on the N purity of these two moments on bringing wholeness and life just as he did to the man. And the Garrison's, he, he drove out the spirits that were impure and him now the impurity leaves these two contexts in both very different ways, but very tender, very tender.

If, if mark five begins with something that feels dynamically combative, then the next two stories feel traumatic. Compassionate and tender. There is there's an it shoes, doesn't it show again, Jesus shifting he, he can be this sort of warrior driving evil, away, and chant. He can be this, this brother, this husband, like person, this father ask person, he he's, he's taking on the context of, of speaking to a woman broken and saying daughter, almost a father language to her, which would have been so redemptive.

And then of course the tenderness of, of taking the little girl by the hand notice he, he doesn't call her little daughter. Cause that's not, that's not, that's not his language, but he calls her little girl. I love that. And again, the tenderness of that little girl raise up. So, ah, it's beautiful, David.

It's so good. 

David: [00:30:52] I think he's fourth, just a little moment around this, this touch of Jesus as well from, from the, the woman with the bleeding, the hemorrhages, she says if I, but touch his clothes it's interesting that we, we noticed it in the last episode. It was just kind of alluded to quickly. But when you're over in the end of mark, chapter six, as stories of Jesus are sort of spreading you get this sense that people are begging that they might even come and touch the fringe of his clothes. I don't know what your is there a connection with this, but I've seen some people writers over the years, try and connect this to a little bit of messianic prophecies. I don't know if you've encountered this, this, this idea in Malakai chapter four in verse two, that the son of righteousness will rise with healing in his wings.

And a few people have noticed that in the Hebrew of Malakai at chapter two there's Malika chapter four, sorry, verse two. The word is kind-of right, which is used to describe wings, but canal can also is a word to describe garments and sometimes the, the, the edge of garments. And so some people have wondered.

It's just a kind of thinking out loud moment, John, but some people have wondered whether basically whether there's something there's something potentially going on here, that the woman is the woman sort of channeling a little bit of her messianic hope. If this man is the Messiah, then his healing in his canal is healing in his wings or garments.

And therefore, if I can just touch his garments, then that I will be healed. And, and, and no, it's not mark, doesn't draw the connection explicitly there, but it's just one to think about. I don't know. Have you encountered this? Do you have thoughts on that, John?

John: [00:32:46] Yeah, absolutely. And of course it is, it is a very, it's a very Jewish way of thinking really. So, so I think in terms of the world of Jesus, they would have looked for these connectors. Some of these connectors would have been significant things that we would just regard as coincidence may be regarded as much more than that.

Our, this sort of sense of the touchability of Jesus. The fact that he is, he becomes known as one who touches and is touched. And again, we we've sort of lent into that. You you've already referenced or the end of chapter six, they begged him to let him touch even the edge of, and all who touched him were healed.

And it's just so, so I, I think again, part of the incarnation is Elaine humanity. To get close enough to touch who he is and be touched by him. And that Molokai illusion, why not? I mean, some may think that is a stretch. What's fair enough. If you're willing to make the connection between that sense of his skirts or his garment or his wings actually it's there is it, is it, this is the woman recognizing something and without articulating explicitly her conviction, that he is the Messiah, is she by her articulating something.

I mean, she wouldn't be. And the gospels for doing that, there were people who did certain things because they believe certain things are, or they hope for, for certain things and why this woman are not only other people who touched him though.

Why is this woman highlight it in the context? I think it's because she explicitly says if I can just touch the edge of his garment and I think there could be illusion to that, that glorious idea that he has risen with healing in his garments or in his wings.

Absolutely. Why not? Why not?

David: [00:34:51] Even that then relates to a fascinating aspect of the story. Doesn't it? Because,  Jesus. Doesn't seem to have goodness and you want to tread carefully to not say what your people might find is the wrong thing to say about Jesus. But Jesus appears to have had no control over this miracle.

It feels it has been automatic. Hasn't it? That, that somehow, I mean, Jesus says your faith has saved you which is, which is interesting. Perhaps you need to think a little bit about that language at one level as well. But, but, but it's, he is a w Jesus is aware of the healing after the healing has happened, as it's quite remarkable, John.

John: [00:35:28] It is. It's, it's totally incredible. And, and I think something, the implication is something is drawn from him by her.

So it's not like he is explicitly thinking, right? There's a woman here. I need to sort this, right. It's her fifth, her action towards him draws something from him which is absolutely beautiful and also quite mysterious.

Isn't it? It's, it's what's going on here. And, and even Jesus, I mean the reaction of the disciples is quite humorous. Isn't it? She said, who, who, who touched. W when he asked this sort of question who, who actually touch me, says having known and himself that power came out of him has gone forth from him.

And he turns and says, who touched me? I love that. And, and, and of course the disciples go, what, what do you mean there's there's there's but then doesn't it show us again. And again, I suppose if we're trying to draw lessons from this there's touching and there's touching, so there is a touching of fifth, whatever we mean by that.

And then there is the rubbing up against the, the bumping into the, the hustle and the bustle, but something's going on here that draws God, that draws God's power. And I love that. I love that something in the heart of this woman draws the power of God to.

David: [00:36:55] And at the same time that there's also that kind of mark and reversal idea going on th the, the unclean, the impure person touches things and they become automatically impure, but, but Jesus touches things and they become automatic. Pure. They become automatically clean again. It's quite, it's quite fascinating.

Is it this again? I know I've mentioned it already, but there's, there's a beautiful little line in, in, in  book, on the forces of death that he just says th the, the story of the hemorrhaging woman gives readers the impression that Jesus is innately. Well, one could say ontologically opposed to ritual impurity and that his body like a force of nature inevitably will destroy impurity sources.

I catch I'd love that quote, this idea that, that Jesus might innately like something in his being just reacts against the forces of impurity. Like what a, what a brilliant thought

John: [00:37:56] Fantastic.

David: [00:37:57] that what you're seeing in Jesus isn't well, let me not misquote. It's not that we're saying Jesus. Isn't also consciously trying to eradicate the forces of impurity and evil, but it's so much who he is that it's, that in this situation it's even happening without his conscious awareness.

Like, like it's awesome. Isn't it? It's

John: [00:38:19] And I love the humanity of the moment in verse 32, as he was looking around to see the person who had done this, I mean, there is a glorious, mysterious, paradoxical moment here of the incarnation. Isn't it? So. There would be a view that, that, that Jesus is all was aware, always in control, knows everything knows everyone because he is God.

And here's a beautiful sort of human moment.

On the tension power has just left him. That's healed this woman. So that's an incredible like wow moment. And yet he's gone. Hold on. I need to locate the person who did this. Isn't that? Isn't it a beautiful paradox. Now I know that messes with our head a little bit, but I like that.

I liked the, I liked the sort of. Messiness of that. I think there's a, there's a, there's a grace in that messiness that sort of goes, well, why didn't Jesus just knew who it was and why didn't Jesus just like spotter before she even got there. And you get this impression this, please, please listeners don't throw anything at your, at your laptop or your, or your phone, but the Jesus didn't quite know what was about to happen.

And I love that. I love this sort of sense of humanity here, which draws us into the story even more. And, and doesn't it feel then like his, the reaction to her feels really, really then tender and natural rather than feeling, oh, well, I knew this was going to happen here is here's my answer. It's like a reaction to her and I love that sense of reaction to the woman.

David: [00:40:09] And that's where the parallels work really well, isn't it?  You've got a miracle story within a miracle story. So the story  begins as the story of the healing of Josie's daughter, but now you get this woman in the middle of it, presented as an interruption and there's even an element of it, which kind of tries to imply that the slowing down to deal with this lady may have caused problems in getting to gyrus these house on time.

It's not explicit, but there's this sense of that whereby then Jesus, his final comment in this part of the story where the woman fades out of the story. Now, his daughter, your faith as  made you well. So, so the final comment is that what is the story? It's a story of Jesus on his way to heal a daughter.

Well, if Jesus is in the business of healing daughters, of course, he's going to stop on the way to heal this daughter. And in case anybody misses that Jesus is going to call it. Daughter. And  and then the fact that then the intro into the next phase of the story is now are, but your daughter gyrus, your daughter is dead.

This daughter is healed, but your daughter, your daughter is dead. So it's quite H it's, it's brilliant the way all holds together. Isn't it.

John: [00:41:22] Did you know David? I love your language of interrupt. Because I, I think  I think at odds wit to the magnificence of the story of, of the healing of this woman, because it does feel a little bit like, okay we're on the way to the main event and you sort of, got in the way and, and does not.

It doesn't, it sweep her up. She, she has been out of the way she has been excluded. She has been on the fringe and even her healing fields, like it, it was an interruption and yet Jesus makes it a man event. He stops it. Isn't it isn't it gorgeous,  it says in verse 33 frightened and trembling, knowing what had been done to her came and fell down before him and told him the whole truth.

And then he said no, no. In order for that to happen in order for her to fall down in front of him, for him to speak tenderly, he has to stop the procession. What seems to have been an interruption now becomes the main event. And and he, even though he's got Jared, his daughter in the background and all of that's kicking off, he slows the whole thing down.

And I love the fact that Jesus stops the parade for this woman. The woman who's been ignored 12th year, completely ignored at night. Everybody's looking at her and I just find that his ability to do it where everybody's stuff. And that's just sort of the situation. The fifth of you has healed you. Oh my goodness.

It's just, this woman must've felt really rubbish about herself. And yet, what does Jesus say? The fifth of you? Has he said something in you he's saying has called God out of, out of me to heal you. W w what an affirmation that is not just that she is daughter, but something in her sort of called God to her.

Wow. Come on. It's just, I and David, a love, I love the sort of triple emphasis in 34. There seems to be, to me, I don't know if you can help me further with this, but there seems to be a triple emphasis of sort of wholeness thinking in 34, Jesus says the faith of you has healed you. So you've got that beautiful idea of healing which, which.

So-so con can point to the idea of, of wholeness. And then he says, go in peace RNA, which, which of course relates usually to Shalom the wholeness idea and be signed from your affliction. Hey guess it's. Yeah. And there seems to be almost a triple lean into there of the woman hasn't been complete for 12 years

on Jesus and using three different words, healed peace, unsigned lens into know your whole,  your whole, and that you can return to community your whole, in that you are at peace at mind and you're whole, and that you're healed.

 Feels like a triple emphasis on the Holden there 

David: [00:44:41] So you've got this, you've got this first statement your,  your faith has, as you said it it's, it's the Greek word Soju, which is also used to of salvation. It's so there's something deep going on there. It's perfect tense in the Greek.

So it it's perfected ? Yeah. Has it has healed you, so you are healed and then you get these two images , go  it's imperative, isn't it going? Peace, actually, you can, you can head off into this now because, because it's perfected this healing is so you can, you can depart, there's nothing else for you to do.

And, , and be well, like be healthy is, is another way to translate, be well or healthy, what it was, it was inflicting you, you your disease. So  generally what happens within Greek languages when you have this sort of range of phatic statements,  they basically build the intensity, so this woman is completely sorted out  within the Jewish context idea of peace and Shalom and wholeness is there, so go in wholeness go in completeness.

It, it is Johnny. It is beautiful. It's

John: [00:45:46] gorgeous.

David: [00:45:47] it's quite, it's quite something. And so then we transitioned over to. This then the dark side of the story, that, that actually, it turns out that gyrus, his daughter has died in the process of this. And you'd hear this sort of fatalism of, so why trouble the teacher anymore?

So you go from , the Heights of, wow, Jesus's involuntary action has healed this, this woman and and down to now, well,

John: [00:46:14] Yeah, yeah.

David: [00:46:15] should probably just end the story here because

there's no hope. 

John: [00:46:18] yes. It is a jolt. Isn't it? It's a, it's a big, like a crunching gear change, right in the middle of the story. I mean, verse 34, you are, I almost like the crowd is hushed. We are hearing these amazing words. The woman is affirmed a transformed. We are, we are drawn into the story, even as I've heard it read today.

Again, my emotions have been stirred again and then suddenly, oh, while he was still speaking. Wow. In the process of speaking to the daughter, he gets the news about the other daughter.

David: [00:46:54] Yes.

John: [00:46:54] a jolt, doesn't it? It's a, it's a show and doesn't life. Isn't that life divot. Isn't that life you, you can have a of blame experience with Jesus.

And then the very next minute it's a Jew, like the reality of planet broken and sad and disappointed and whatever grabs us. And we are confronted with, reality. It's like the unit, the disciples up the Mount of what we sometimes called the Mount of transfiguration with Jesus. They see Jesus transfigured they calm down whether they confronted with us, this, this man who son is so.

Demonized that that demon tries to throw them in the fire and the disciples couldn't, couldn't set them free. So you go from the sublime or let's build three tents for Moses, Elijah, and you, Jesus that's live here forever. And then you come down the hill and you go, oh, right, okay. Confronted with grungy reality.

Isn't that verse 34 35 is not our lives. Isn't it? I, sir, blame ridiculous, like glorious pay-in-full blessed and broken. It's a, it's a real tr it's one verse and it sort of summarizes so much of our experience in life. 34 to 35. Wow. What a jolt?

David: [00:48:15] No, you're absolutely right.  But then you get Jesus  Jesus is ear waking on their conversation. I love it. Overhearing what they said, and so this, this little line here in verse 36, just the simplicity of it is, is so, a so nice it's only four words in the Greek , and a lot of the English translations try and preserve its shortness, but it's kind of hard in English to say the same thing so shortly, but, but don't fear .

Only believe. and so  grammatically this little passage is interesting because the way that it's formed the, the language of, of the way that the grammar works of don't fear is a sort of emphasis around stop an action that's in progress. So it's not like Jesus is saying to him, oh, don't start to being afraid.

Right. He, he's actually aware of that, that you are afraid and I'm in couraging you to stop being afraid. But then to continue the grammar, grammar, then suggest it's continue trusting or continue believing just like you've started the journey you're afraid for your daughter's life, but you're trusting in Jesus and Jesus now invites him.

Or what about if we're going to go on, if you stop the fear bit and continue in, , in the trust bit, , because if you let the fear. Run you at this point, you're going to stop bothering Jesus. You're going to go. Yeah, actually. You're right. We should just stop bothering Jesus, but Jesus just doesn't want that to happen.

It's awesome. Isn't it?

Keep saying it's awesome in this, in this episode, but it really is awesome.

John: [00:49:46] it is awesome. It is. And that's a proper use of the word too. It's it is truly awesome. It, and isn't it beautiful that he, he does speak that directly to Charisse. I mean, it's, it's a bit impersonal the, the ruler of the synagogue, but he speaking to Joe cause gyrus is the boss night, whatever gyrus calls next is going to happen.

If Jarrod says it's done, it's over. Forget it. But, but of course remember, right? So that's just pause a little bit between 34 and 35. Again, Jarris has just witnessed the healing of this other daughter.

I that's one of the little facts we, we do tend to forget don't we, in a way it's like, he's, he's not in the scene, he's in the scene and he's out of the scene, then he's in the scene.

But of course he's there the whole time. He, he is literally. If we're reading this properly, he's the one leading Jesus to his home when Jesus gets interrupted, therefore he has potentially got a front row seat on the healing of this woman. And therefore, maybe, maybe we hear, geez, we've reflected on this before, but Jesus is tone.

Right? So if Jarvis has been standing right there, all that time, seeing this woman healed, then maybe when he says to Jarris, in the context of this don't fear only believe there's a, there's a Tunisian here of Jarvis. Jarvis. Look at me, look up me. Luke was just happened. Now don't listen to them.

Listen to me. Don't fear. Stop fear. And what, what a moment he he's just potentially witnessed the healing of this woman. And now he's being confronted with the reality that his daughter is dead and he now has a dramatic choice to make either to lead the procession on or go. Nah, it's all over please.

Wow.  Aye. You want to lean into the tone of Jesus there? I'm I'm wanting to hear a tender tone, right? So you've got voices all around jars happening right now and I'm wanting, here's what I'm wanting to imagine. Jesus is looking straight at gyrus and he's saying to Charisse, look at me, look at me.

Don't don't listen to them. Look at me, stop fearing. Believe me, believe me. I'm the one that can do this. I've just done it. I can do this for your daughter. And, and in the midst of the chaos, I want to, I want to believe that that's right. Deeply intimate, fierce, the fierce moment for jars. And I think that's the moment he goes, okay, let's do this.

Let's do this.

David: [00:52:36] . It's it's, it's great. It really is. It there's something the humanity of the whole story is quite profound. Isn't it?

That th th that everybody is, is, is humanized in really important ways. The only exception, perhaps being the crowd at gyrus, his house of my favorite bits of the story as well, but she's not dead, but sleeping.

So they all laughed at him and he put them on

John: [00:52:58] Absolutely.

David: [00:53:00] live. You're going to laugh. You don't get to be part of this.

John: [00:53:03] a, yup.

 But, but doesn't it show them the contrast of context that, that the group that has moved with Jesus towards Jarvis's door. They're not laughing. Nobody with him is laughing when he says this, because Hey, if you're, did you see what we've just seen?

That actually you wouldn't be laughing. They're laughing because they're hearing these words out, out of all set and to be fair to them, if some Galilean rabbi showed up at the house and said, she's just sleeping. I mean, people would laugh, Whitney. They, they think he was bonkers, but, but they laugh because they're out of context and it's it's, so again, super important that we, we do see the world as we are not as it is sometimes.

And, and again, where we're judging from where we stand, not from, from what actually is reality. So it is a, it's a funny moment and also quite a sobering moment, too.

David: [00:53:59] It really is. even, even this sort of sense of when she's raised from the dead, give her something to eat. I just, I just love, I don't want to hear it. I'm a lot made of it, John, but there's something beautiful about Jesus. He's just concerned just his, his care and concern just for something so practical and, and, and small.

Yeah. Just give her, give her something to eat. It's you get this little insight into, into the compassion of Jesus. If you haven't found it in this passage so far, here it is in the final words of the chapter. It's just that, Jesus even cares that this, this person who has just died, I mean, raised to life just needs some, some practicalities, like a little bit of food.

John: [00:54:44] that's gorgeous. It is this lovely. It's lovely. And of course, in  context, she wouldn't have just been given this snack that would have maybe been the cue for, Hey, that's how the feast that celebrate that's back to our language of partying. So, so you've just had all the weeping, the commotion, the professional mourners are now in a it's all going on.

Jesus kicks all of that eight and by signaling, that's give her something to eat. Maybe, maybe that's a signal for it. Right. Let's have a feast. That's enjoy this, that celebrate the fact that she was there to know she's alive. And of course we're, we're given new insight into that only that they were astonished, but, but you've got to, if I was Jarvis, his daughter, ABC and Jesus hanging around, we're going to have dinner that, that let's do this together.

We want you to enjoy our hospitality within it. No, it's just beautiful. It's and again, the, the compassion of give her something to eat. Just flows out of little girl. I say to you, get up. It's just, it's not even speaking to the death. He's not, he's not speaking. He just speaks to the child. And as if we can in her from sleep, she just gets up and arc it's.

I it's, there are scenes in the gospels where I would, I would love efforts that heaven flex when we get to heaven and we can go to a library and sort of just like, get a donut and load. This, this would be one of the stories where you go, I'd love to see the reaction of the group and hope people respond to that.

Dave, can I ask you one question as, as around this there's, there's an astonishing moment rate at the end of chapter five and it says in verse 43, he give strict order. Not to let anyone know about this and told them to give her something to eat. So we've got this beautiful. Give her something to eat moment.

That's how this celebrate. So we've been talking about all these gorgeous connectors and contrasts in mark five. And of course, this is a bit of a contrast to the end of our first episode in mark five, where at the end, literally it says, so the man went away and began to tell or preach proclaim Caruso proclaim how much Jesus had done for him, the woman, the daughter that's been healed in the story.

I mean, that's front and center. Now that's a public miracle. There's no hiding that. And yet we've got this little moment where he's saying to them, don't tell anyone. What, what sort of reflection would you have a ride? What might be, cause we we're trying to lean into what's going on here in terms of meaning what, what might be nuanced.

David: [00:57:37] There's a lot of discussion about this amongst scholarship over the years. And this has become known as the, the motif of the messianic secret that Jesus seems to seems to want to not make a big deal of, of certain things. I, I have a couple of sort of places that I stand on. It, there's a lot of people that are infinitely smarter than me that can't quite decide what to make of this.

Cause it's a theme that appears throughout mark quite regularly. Jesus does something and don't tell anybody about it. Don't tell him about it. And then there's even a brilliant line where it's like, the more Jesus told them not to tell anyone the more everybody talked about it. So, so people weren't very obedient on this front.

Interestingly of course, in the, in the first half and in, in mark five with the, he is told, as you say to, to, to go. Preach about it and this woman's not told, so here it, my take on is simply this, I think, and I think you see this in a few places in the gospels. I think that Jesus knows that there is a bit of a campaign to define what Messiah is.

And, and I think that that Jesus wants to show and, and, we've talked about it already in this season that, Peter's unhappy with Jesus, he's taken what it means to be the Messiah, in John, they decide that if Jesus is the Messiah, they're going to make him king by force. And Jesus, has to, has to get out of that sort of space.

So I think that when you come to be the Messiah as Jesus did, but you're going to be a Messiah that's different from what everybody expected. I think it's very important that you try to avoid. The, the popularity quest, the, the journey of, of celebrity almost. I think there's some fascinating little inputs potentially there as to why Jesus doesn't do what we would perhaps do in the modern Western context, which is let's hold a rally and really let everybody know about this.

It seems like Jesus is concerned that people will, will draw the right and wrong conclusions here in that, but then there's another thing that mark does, which I just want to mention, which I've always been fascinated by that consistently throughout the gospel, people are told, please don't tell anybody about this until you get to the very end of Mark's gospel in chapter 16 in verse eight.

You get this little moment where. Worth mentioning as well, that in the earliest additions of Mark's gospel that we have mark 16, verse eight is the end of Mark's gospel. And at some point later in Christian tradition, some scribes added little conclusions because 16 verse eight felt very stark as an ending.

I'm relatively calm. In my own research that 16 verse eight is the original ending. And what you get beyond that is a post-script that's been added later. So what's interesting then is that the resurrection has just happened. And the young man says to these, to these disciples, he says so gorgeous to these women who were their goal and proclaim they're actually told, go and tell.

And the final words of mark gospel is, and they said nothing to anyone because they were afraid. So you have this interesting little discipleship motif that throughout Jesus says, don't tell anybody about this just yet. Don't tell any bit of this and people completely ignore him and they're going out and they're announcing about Jesus.

And then you get Jesus saying Well, the message from Jesus is go and proclaim and fear takes over a little bit now, and I'm going to tread carefully. So I'm seeing clearly that's not entirely true. Clearly they did say something to anyone, to someone, right? Because we know the story the is being shared.

And I almost am tempted to think it's mark. Just his final little, this is how I've read it. It's a challenge. It's Mark's final challenge to you as a reader. Okay. You have no. Understood the Messiah you've seen the son of God clearly you've understood the way of the cross. So now you can go and talk about it.

Don't go and talk about Jesus when it's just, and again, forgive me when it's just appears, like you're interested in magic tricks, right? Don't go and talk about simply the Jesus of the miracles or the Jesus of the commons of the storm. You have to get through the cross and resurrection, and now go and talk about this Jesus, because we're not calling people to a show we're calling people to a new kingdom.

So, so for me, that's how I've tried to sort of sit with this strange theme throughout the gospels. And does that, does that help, John?

John: [01:02:04] Oh, that's very helpful. I think it, I think it's very helpful for our listeners who are trying to, if we've been encouraging them to read mark five, as a flow, there seems to be a bit of a, Ooh, yeah. Go and tell everybody in your hometown what Jesus has done and at the capitalist setting, but here in a Jewish setting, be a bit more careful.

And, and is there an explanation for that? And, and it seems that Jesus is less Oscar, I've got to use the phrase last stress, but that made a fan people. Jesus is less concerned, concerned of words, spreading about him in a Gentile context and certain words spreading in a Jewish context. And also isn't it fascinating, again, something you said, which I thought was very, very helpful.

The reaction of the man who has been set free from the demons. He clearly has been transformed, not just in his body, but in his thinking

he is at disciple. So he will be spreading who Jesus is not simply what Jesus did and it's moving. As opposed as the challenge of moving the crowed beyond the miracles, into the truth of who he is.

And then, then, then we understand the miracles properly. Whereas if we only are drawn to Jesus purely because of the miracles, we are in danger of missing who he is. And I think, I think as you've lent into that could be what mark is, is helping us with sorts of beautiful thought. Thanks, David. Wonderful,

Closing: [01:03:43] So that's it for our two texts this week. Thanks so much for listening. As we talked your way through mark chapter five, we really hope that you enjoyed it. If you'd like to get in touch with either of us about something we said in this episode, you can reach out to us. A podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the two texts podcast on Facebook, Instagram. 

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But that's it for this episode, we'll be back in two weeks time with another episode. But until then, Goodbye.