In which John and David get excited for Christmas by talking about Mary. We're releasing a few bonus episodes as we approach Christmas focussing on Mary and Joseph (with support from the other Nativity Characters). This week we're talking about Mary!
Episode 37 of the Two Texts Podcast | Christmas Bonus 1
If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagramand Twitter. We're also on YouTube. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?
Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021
In which John and David get excited for Christmas by talking about Mary. We're releasing a few bonus episodes as we approach Christmas focussing on Mary and Joseph (with support from the other Nativity Characters). This week we're talking about Mary!
Episode 37 of the Two Texts Podcast | Christmas Bonus 1
If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagramand Twitter. We're also on YouTube. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?
Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021
Transcript Auto Generated by Descript.com
[00:00:00] Intro: Hi there. My name is David Harvey and I'm here with John Andrews. For a bonus Christmas episode of the two texts podcast, John and I decided to get together for the next few episodes and talk to you. About some of our favorite moments in the nativity stories from the new Testament. So settle down near your Christmas tree and enjoy this episode. Which we've called Mary. The mother of Jesus.
[00:00:28] David: Well, good morning, John. It's a balmy minus 14 for me at 7:00 AM in Canada, the joys of international podcasting.
[00:00:39] How are ya?
[00:00:40] John: I'm doing great in comparison to you. I could be sitting here in England and my underpants. So it's quite, it's quite warm here for, for December, so where we're sort of four or five degrees, which which is, is very much in the positive. And I, I am feeling European at the moment in beautiful Calgary.
[00:00:58] So done. Bless your mom.
[00:00:59] David: And, and John, I've had to take off my winter coat because even though I'm in the basement, my coat was too noisy to record with. So there's real like this real commitment to two texts podcasting from me today. The risk of frostbite is real man.
[00:01:14] John: it's it's, it's what we do. It's what we do for the cause. Man. It's marvelous. Well done. Well done.
[00:01:19] David: And in, since we last spoke the world has been engulfed in a question of which you and me as, as, as, as lovers of, of language, need to weigh in on is it army Cron or Omicron or OMI Omicron, or like, like people have asked us as their go-to Greek things. How do we say this new variants name?
[00:01:44] John: Yeah, indeed. So certainly from the UK and it's
[00:01:47] it's all micron in terms of the news broadcasting, I w I was taught in my Greek classes on micron, so that's how I learned it. And and and so that's what I'm sticking with. I could be completely wrong and say, would defer to your superior intelligence on this.
[00:02:02] But, but the world seems to be not only divided on the fact of will This variant destroy civilization as we knew it, but also how do you actually pronounce the jelly variant? And and, and maybe, maybe we, the next name we should pick should be something that there's no dispute over. So.
[00:02:18] David: Yeah, exactly. And, I think that's the key thing, isn't it? That, that within a lot of language schools there's different views on, like, you would never know that this is the sort of thing that people can argue and fight about, but pronunciation of, of of Greek letters is, is a big challenge.
[00:02:37] And so you do find, I think in classical Greek, you'll find often that kind of more or Cron. And then, you get maybe the Omicron in some people it's as short as Zomi Crighton. And I. I mean one I was, I was reading something and one or two scholars out there are going to be honest with you.
[00:02:55] There's not even really an entirely wrong letter. These can be regional variations. I mean, bear in mind Greek at one point it covered a good chunk of the European sort of landscape. Didn't it? And in the same way with English, you look at the difference between, the us English and British English.
[00:03:13] I but it's funny, isn't it? How, one person comes on TV and says it one way and all of a sudden that becomes the big discussion.
[00:03:20] John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. No fascinating.
[00:03:23] David: Unfortunately two texts is not going to make it onto the news solving this problem anytime soon.
[00:03:29] John: no. But, but according to a listener who got in contact with us that there may be free coffee on the way to us because we had the army chrono Macron to be it. So there we are, that that was worth doing it just for that.
[00:03:40] It was for the coffee, really. It wasn't for the purity of the language and into which We introduced this conversation.
[00:03:45] David: We are in no way opposed to to, to sponsorship on that front. I think I would just say this is one of the things we like to think about when it comes to language is what is the proper way to pronounce it? So, yesterday in church, one of my friends read our Bible text to the day, which was Luke chapter three.
[00:04:03] It was in the liturgical tradition. It was John the Baptist Sunday, yesterday. So Luke chapter three, in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, and we were laughing in church about, it was just a horrible text to give to somebody to read because there's so many complex Greek names in that, in that small passage of Luke chapter three, and everybody of course, things are what's the right way to see these names.
[00:04:25] And I kind of feel.
[00:04:27] John: Like
[00:04:27] David: Like if I said to you, Hey, I'm going to the capsule of France, we would say, oh, that's Paris. But if you arrive in Paris, people would say, oh, welcome to party. Right. So, so there's a sense in which what's the proper way. Well, that can depend on a whole host of things, cancer,
[00:04:43] so I kind of feel that maybe the same is true with army crying or my crying, is, is, there's probably bigger things for us to be nervous about, to say this thing
[00:04:54] that's coming
[00:04:55] John: like catching it, catching it. That might be a bigger issue than what it's called, but that's, that's hope none of our listeners catch it, whatever, whatever it is called,
[00:05:05] David: Please. Jesus. Yeah.
[00:05:07] John: Bless you, Lord.
[00:05:08] David: So we are at talking today, a little kind of, couple of weeks of I'm not sure if this is a series or we'll just call it bonus material at Christmas is coming we're in advent right now. And you may wanted to just chat a little bit about some of the stories that we find at the early pages of, of Matthew's gospel in Luke's gospel Mary Joseph, all of those sort of stories.
[00:05:31] And today we want to talk about Mary.
[00:05:33] John: Absolutely magnificent. And I think we're, we're helped by Dr. Luke, Dr. Luke clearly sort of lanes in the Marias primary source material for his birth narrative. And I'm sure our listeners are aware of this and, Matthew leans into Joseph. So you get by putting Matthew and Luke together, you get a lovely compliment to the story, but very much from a meal Jewish point of view in, in Matthew and very, very much from a female.
[00:06:04] And you could even argue marginalized point of view, slightly marginalized point of view from Luke that may be pushing it a bit too hard, but it Luke's version is absolutely beautiful. So we w would you like me to read the the story David we'll get
[00:06:16] David: Well, yeah, well, I've been the, you've said too many things already that I want to jump in and discuss. So, so I'm going to ask you about them before we get to the texts, let's build the tension. Before we get to Luke I was thinking about Mary is marginalized. By the time they make it to the temple with the baby Jesus, they, they offer an offering of of some of some some birds don't they, as part of Jesus dedication, which we know from old Testament texts, that would imply that they were not financially well off that that's actually a very least Mary is you've got a priest in, in, in Zachariah making the announcement, but at least Mary and Joseph are not from higher echelons of society.
[00:07:01] John: yeah,
[00:07:01] David: that? Do you think that's fair to
[00:07:02] John: Or totally, totally agree with that. And they, they do bring according to the Torah, the offering of the poor and that's a lovely little subtext in there within that context. And of course it, both Joseph and Mary Hill from Galilee Galilee would have been really hard subsistence type lifestyle, had the most tech lifestyle.
[00:07:23] And the, in the world of first century Israel, the rich were rich. The poor were poor and there were very few people in the middle. And I think Joseph and Mary reflect that in that, in that context that they are probably home to most living hand to mouth in the context of their world and the world of Jesus.
[00:07:42] If you didn't work essentially. Unless you were born into wealth, if you didn't work, you didn't eat. So, so Yeah.
[00:07:47] you get those lovely little reflections. There's a beautiful sense that when you look at Zachariah and Elizabeth, we're told that Elizabeth was barren and she was old and, and it's sort of a double whammy there, but Luke also says, oh, and by the way, she was a righteous woman and he is defending her, her position through her righteousness.
[00:08:08] And then you get Mary favorite of the Lord. The Lord has calmed you in this incredible moment, the favor, there's something about user tracking him. And yet, clearly Mary and Joseph are not in the higher echelons of society. So you've got, you've got this lovely juxtaposition of a righteous person that needs freedom from barrenness.
[00:08:29] And then you've got and, and the context of her culture. And then you've got this sort of. Poor person. That's highly favored and called under both from slightly different directions called into the center of this incredible story. So there are some beautiful, beautiful subtext sort of, ideas that are just hanging around the, the birth narrative.
[00:08:50] David: And. Then just cranking up the pressure of all the things that you've said, and we've not even got to the text yet. Women preachers one of our listeners got in touch with us just recently and asked, where do you stand on women preachers? And obviously, avoiding controversial topics is good for a, wide listener base.
[00:09:11] But I feel like Luke set something up for us really early. In his gospel by actually not just locating women's centrally in the story, but making women key announcers of what Jesus is doing. So my 2 cents is, I'm 100% behind women preachers, because I think that it is in keeping with the gospel traditions too, to see that the gospel is taught and announced and proclaimed.
[00:09:42] And I think if we start to draw lines between preaching and teaching and pastoring, I think we're inventing categories now at that stage shepherds feed flocks will you be a weird shepherd if you looked after the flock, but never fed them, you start stretching things. So for me personally, I am a hundred percent behind, women teaching and preaching and being involved in the life of the church.
[00:10:03] And I actually think that that Luke shows you with the dominant place that women hold in the announcement of the gospel. That's actually in keeping with the way of Jesus. So that's Mike and a 2 cents on that. Do you want to dive into that controversy
[00:10:16] with anything else?
[00:10:17] John: won 100% degree. I think Dr. Luke positions, women incredibly positively throughout his narrative, both in the gospel of Luke and the book of acts. So you have women in the opera room receiving the holy spirit. When the holy spirit comes the next chapter two and acts and Luke chapter eight, you've got women who are clearly identified as disciples of Jesus and supporters of his ministry out of their own wealth.
[00:10:42] That's all going on there. You've got the image of Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus and the host of her sister, Martha, which is unmissable rabbinic position in terms of that. And then you've got, women are known, seen the resurrection one of our favorite stories, Luke 24 at gorgeously unique two on the road to a mass.
[00:11:00] Everybody assumed it's two man. I suspect. Mon and a woman traveling back to their cm to sit to their same home. And, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was now, of course I'm arguing from silent star, but that would fit really very much with the trajectory of Luke. And of course, not only to get women to knowns in the resurrection and Luke, you have the whole of the birth narrative of Jesus, essentially based on the witness statement of a woman, which in a first century world context, to have a woman as your primary witness statement is saying something quite controversial, but also something very affirmative about women themselves.
[00:11:40] So Luke begins as he wishes to carry on and you've got women, righteous women are women attracted in the favor of God and women who knew the scriptures. And when we get into the song of Mary, my goodness gracious me. This is a serious. Presentation of, of Bible knowledge from this young girl that stands up and holds its own against Zachariah's prophecy later on in chapter one, a priest among tree and in the scriptures and her, what we call Magnificant is, is as rocking as his prophetic utterance.
[00:12:16] So a lot going on there that if our listeners are prepared to slew, dine there's a lot of beautiful bread crumbs being dropped here by Dr. Luke. And he's hoping that we will pick them up and follow the trail. And if you follow that trail, it is an unmissable AF affirmation and elevation and emancipation of women in the Lucan text.
[00:12:37] David: it and I think it's important to kind of get those things out and frame them early because it helps us as we jump into the conversation. So one more piece, cause you said a lot that I said, you, you, you, you dive this into,
[00:12:47] John: I didn't realize I said that much.
[00:12:50] David: one more piece, then that we just let's just deal with this.
[00:12:53] Now let's just go from one controversy to the next and then we'll jump to the Bible and, and sort everything out. I grew up in Protestant, Scotland, you grew up in Protestant, Northern Ireland, kind of, sometimes it almost feels like people from our sort of backgrounds are almost a little scared to talk of Mary because Mary's a Roman Catholic thing and I, what do you want to say to them?
[00:13:19] John: Well, I think genuinely, I came from a Protestant background in Northern Ireland. The Roman Catholic tradition would hold Mary as the mother of God. And because my Protestant tradition rejected that idea. We unfortunately seem to reject any other reference to marry which I phoned back then even as a, as a teenager in church.
[00:13:41] And certainly as I studied the scriptures and studied Luke, I found that completely tragic. Mary is one of the most magnificent, outstanding women in the whole of human hair. She is blessed in a unique way and that she is the only woman in human history to birth God and flesh. And therefore she does have incredible unique and special status. But as Mary recognizes herself, she, she is a weak and broken vessel. She is a center that needs a sea of your, and that's in her own words and the context of that. But she stands in the most amazingly privileged position in, in the new Testament. And I think I would appeal to anyone. I don't think Mary wants us to worship her, but I don't think the Lord wants us to ignore her.
[00:14:31] And I think we should, we should celebrate Mary. We should elevate Mary to its status of, of her unique position as a human, but we must not deify Mary to a position that is beyond her station. And, and I think one that she would not identify. And certainly if we're, if we're going to be, if we're without being offensive to any part of Christendom, one, the deification of Mary does not seem to be supported any in any shape or form through a descriptors.
[00:15:03] So, so it's that sense of mother of Jesus, 100% on a unique mother and a unique birth and a unique son
[00:15:11] mother of God. Maybe not in my opinion, but a woman to be celebrated and elevated in our thinking because she's a magnificent woman.
[00:15:20] David: I often think that what happens between the different parts of Christiandom is a lot of misunderstanding so in my experience, a lot of Protestants think Catholics believe things that they don't and in a lot of Roman Catholics think that Protestants believe things that we don't for me to, where I was really helped with, it was. The conversation with, with a Roman Catholic priest once when it was said, the problem is you, you, a Roman Catholics make too much of Mary to which his response was may be, but you Protestants don't make enough of her.
[00:15:53] And, and I would say that that statement there probably reflects the two sites that, that actually we've all gotten a little disconnected perhaps at times from just the huge role that, that Mary plays in scripture and therefore the significance of that. So I felt it was worth saying so that that's not kind of just the elephant in the I was going to see in the room, but we're not in the same room, but the elephant in the podcast.
[00:16:19] So we've kind of jumped through some pretty big things there, which actually are really important to lean into today's podcast. And then, and then the next one, we're where we unpack some of the things that happened
[00:16:31] John: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Or that maintenance 13, the elephant would definitely die in your room, David. So,
[00:16:37] David: that is true. It is the elephants
[00:16:39] John: you know, he, he, or she would just about survive in mind, but definitely Dan years meant that we just wouldn't have, So here we
[00:16:45] David: So that then by way of preamble the preamble to a podcast brings us to Luke chapter one in first 26.
[00:16:53] John: let's do this. That's through
[00:16:54] David: and so let's do what we said we should do, which is jump into the text.
[00:16:58] John: Okay. Here we go. In the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a tine and Galilee to a Virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The Virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, great. You who are highly favored. The Lord is with you.
[00:17:24] Mary was greatly troubled At his words and wondered what kind of greeting this may be. But the angel said to her, do not be afraid. Mary, you have found favor with God, you will conceive and give birth to a son and you were to call him Jesus. He will be great. And he will be called son of the most high.
[00:17:47] The Lord will give him the throne of his father, David, and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever. His kingdom will never end. How will this be? Mary asked the angel since I I'm a Virgin, the angel answered the holy spirit will come on you and the power of the most high will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the son of.
[00:18:14] Even Elizabeth, your relative is going to have a child in her old age. And she, who was said to be on, able to conceive is in her sixth month for nothing is impossible with God. I am the Lord's servant. Mary answered. May your word to me be fulfilled. Then the angel left her.
[00:18:38] David: At that time, Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting the baby leaped in her womb, that's John, the Baptist, the baby and Elizabeth was filled with the holy spirit in a loud voice. She exclaimed blessed are you among women and blessed is the child.
[00:19:02] You will bear, but why am I so favored that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb, leapt for joy. Blessed is she, who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her.
[00:19:21] John: Beautiful.
[00:19:21] David: let's leave that there, John. And we'll come back to Mary's response to that in the next episode, right.
[00:19:27] John: Yeah. fantastic. Absolutely beautiful. And I think all of the challenges David here is that this is such a familiar story to many, many people. So even if you're not a Jesus follower, most people certainly if they've been raised in a sort of a Western context, have probably bumped into this story at some point either through school or, or whatever.
[00:19:51] And certainly for people who are more serious followers of Jesus, this feels just so familiar that we're probably in danger of missing some of the beautiful detail within that. W w would that be fair in terms of well, I think I know what this means sort of context
[00:20:06] David: I mean, is it, I mean, it's very difficult to get to Christmas and not, I not encounter this story in one way or another. Right. I mean, do you have a nativity scene? Have you seen a nativity scene? Do you, do you have an angel on your Christmas tree? Why do you have angels on your Christmas tree or this story right here is why you have angels on your Christmas tree.
[00:20:31] So even if you've never heard somebody read the 26th verse of Luke chapter one, and following you have almost guaranteed, if you are an English speaker that you will have encountered, I mean, Christmas is one of the most widely celebrated. Festivals in the world, isn't it. And although I did discover recently John, that the most celebrated festival in the world which almost nobody would guess what it was, is actually independence from Britain day.
[00:21:03] So there are, if you actually add up all of the countries that celebrate independence from British colonialism that overwhelms their motive, people that celebrate Christmas. So there's a fact for you, but but I think Christmas comes in a pretty close second. So even if you've never read this story, it's highly unlikely, especially in the English speaking world that you've not been influenced in some way by this story in, in one way or the other this, this angel Gabriel and even that name, I mean, that's, that's that name has entered your classic.
[00:21:37] It's a name that people call their children. Isn't it?
[00:21:39] Gabriel? It's
[00:21:40] John: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing, amazing. And what I do love that the story opens up with this messenger of God Gabriel? finding Mary in. Now there's a lovely little tension here. Cause cause the, the, the text says the city of Nazareth the, the word there is Polis and your, on your gold, Molax They all our research points to the idea that this is absolutely 100% not a city that this was a small small village and, and, research seems to point to the idea that this was maybe as, as few as 300 people living in Nazareth, certainly off the main trading route of its day. The perfect place for Joseph to take the baby Jesus and hide him, which of course we know from the Matthew account, that's exactly what he does.
[00:22:31] He hates him from the threat of heritage. And yet the, the angel things, Mary and a world that is small remote hidden and brings this incredible message. And I can't help, but notice that David, I love that as an opening idea, that Mary and a sense is not jumping up and down looking for the Lord, but she's in this new work place.
[00:22:55] And the Lord feigns heard the Lord is drawn to her. The Lord is attracted to her because of something that's going on. And I love this language. You are highly favored verse 28 and in verse 30, you have phoned for. With God and and encouragement and encouragement to all that wherever we live, we can have influence, we can live in the favor of God.
[00:23:21] We may not be noticed by the world around us, but we are seeing by the eyes of the Lord. And I just love this idea that Mary isn't phoned in Jerusalem. She's not phoned in the hotbed of some metropolis. She's actually phoned in really in the, context of the culture of her day, a new word, please. And yet the Lord feigns or speaks to her because he sees something in her and I find that beautifully attractive.
[00:23:44] David: the, the language of, of favor is, is of course the language of grace and that we don't really say it in English this way. You turn where you have found grace with God. We prefer to translate that notion as, as favor. But if you think about grace and. Unmerited reward some at some level, so, the word grace, I think, has been misappropriated a lot of times. So we, we talk about grace as free very often. And that sometimes gets us in problems, I think, with, within Christian tradition, because we read free as I, there for can do what I like with it. And we get ourselves all caught up in all sorts of tangles.
[00:24:23] John Barkley who massively helped me with this, talks about what do we mean by grace? We mean unmerited without regard for worth. So this so-so, you have been found. Worthy in the eyes of God, but not on your own basis.
[00:24:41] And actually that says something about God, not something about you. And actually that's a really important point that, that you're going to need to track with Luke. And also then to track with acts is that God chooses us because of who he is. God rescues humanity because of who he is not because of who humanity are.
[00:24:59] So the whole thing's a grace movement, isn't it? It's and I often wonder when I see Luke's emphasis on grace, I just wonder how much of that is shaped.
[00:25:08] Rocking around in the Hull of a boat with St. Paul, Paul going. Yeah. That's, that's great to Luke and that's great to Luke Luke saying I'm being facetious here, but Luke saying, I'm going to write a book about Jesus and Paul saying, well, has to have a lot of grace in it.
[00:25:21] Luke makes sure you write about Greece. But holding that sense of the unmerited favor. So, so Mary and, Mary has chosen not because of who she is, but because of who God is, that's quite an important point I think for us, but there's a contrast. I think you're absolutely right. And I think as a contrast that Luke is intentionally trying to.
[00:25:42] To create Luke chapter one, you get his kind of brief intro. And then really when the story starts in the days of king Herod of Judea, right? So we start chapter one with this reference to the days of king Herod, but we find ourselves at the key point in chapter one in Nazareth, the very opposite of where king Herod is a village of a couple of hundred people in the dirt.
[00:26:03] And then and then you turn over to chapter two, chapter two begins, a decree, went out from emperor Augustus and like, wow. That's that's quite a, quite a statement, but by, by the mid point of chapter two, guess what we've got, we, we've got a child in a manger and shepherds coming to worship him.
[00:26:23] They're very opposite of emperor Augustus. And then in chapter three and the 15th reign of emperor Tiberius from punches pilot was governor. We get some guy in, well, less than Less than fancy clothes in the desert ruin, announcing the coming of God. I can't help, but think that the L the little surf point that you make, there is not one that a listener should see as a throwaway point.
[00:26:53] I think Luke is drawing a intentional contrast here that look at where Jesus is happening in contrast to perhaps all the places you would expect this story to happen. Did you think, do you think that's a intentional,
[00:27:07] John: I do. And I think if you, if you look at the gospel of Luke throughout, there is this beautiful steer, this reversal dynamic that goes on all the time in Luke's gospel and some of our listeners, well, we'll be aware of that.
[00:27:20] Maybe others discovering it for the first time, but he's always setting up almost contrasting ideas. We've touched on some of that in the parables and in the miracles. And I think that's, that's going, and this idea is introduced to us right at the beginning. You get these massive. Political juxtapositions going on, don't you?
[00:27:40] This is the mate of Rome. This is, this is the juggernaut that is rolling over the Northern world and crushing everything. And it's part of them would be another 400 years before this grid empire vanishes disappears. And it looks impregnable. It looks impossible to overcome on jet. You get this, this teenage girl engaging with, with, with God and, and she's a boat to bear the son of the most high.
[00:28:10] So having been introduced to Caesar, she's going to be the one who bears the son of the most high God, and she's going to do it and a sort of fringe of the empire position on, from a background that
[00:28:24] at this stage, wouldn't threaten her next door neighbor, let alone threaten the mate of room. So, so you are getting these beautiful maps.
[00:28:35] Fields here. And if we just rush into the story, Mary, how to be a B, and we all lived happily ever after then, then we miss hi, Dr. Luke is positioning the narrative for us, which is a beautifully contrasted with the characters that are already been introduced to us.
[00:28:53] David: If you were going to start a revolution to take over the world, you would not start it in Nazareth. He's really what you're saying, John, isn't it. And that, by the way is biblical John chapter one verse 46, and Nathaniel says, can any good thing come from Nazareth?
[00:29:14] John: for sure. And of course we, we have reflected in our parable series of, and I think we touched on it in miracles where Jesus has what's the kingdom of God. Like it is like a woman who needs some yeast into the dough and it changes the whole thing and, and you get. This sense of It's the smallest seed planted in the ground, but it becomes a tree that hoses the birds of the air.
[00:29:39] So you, you, you get this definite feel at the beginning of the, of the birth story of Jesus, of very unspectacular context. A teenage girl, probably in our culture, not in hers, she would have been regarded as a woman in her culture, but a teenage girl in our culture, a couple that are patrolled and relatively poor.
[00:30:00] And they're living at a place that doesn't have a zip code or a postcode on, but what, what they're about to start will change the universe will change the world. It is.
[00:30:10] it is an incredible and incredible beginning. One we shouldn't shouldn't miss the power of, I think.
[00:30:15] David: And I feel like it's even important that there is a point there for Jesus' followers today that when we get caught so often into, oh, there was a phrase went around a little while ago about, the, the role of the church was to make Jesus famous. Right. And, and I understand, what was being attempted with a statement like that.
[00:30:35] But the truth is when you read Luke's gospel, you get the impression that that fame is not something that Jesus set out to, to achieve. And actually that, that sort of theme was there. But instead he chose to do a different whole strategy. And I feel like we should be alert to that as Jesus followers.
[00:30:55] That may be the way that you would naturally choose to do things.
[00:30:59] As, as a, as a regular person in the modern world of marketing and Instagram influencers, you read the nativity stories and you almost are forced to think, I don't think I would have done it like this. And
[00:31:15] no. I mean, so you would say, I don't think I would have done it like this. And as you talked about the status reversal, well, how, how deep are you willing to allow the status reversal to go? And maybe even just our ways of perceiving fame and influence need revised as a result of Luke's telling of the Christmas story,
[00:31:36] John: One of the beautiful truth at the heart of the state is reversal of of Luke's version of the birth story is that Jesus is birthed in, into an empire that would use mate and force and the sword on coercion and intimidation and strength to establish itself. And there, there is something beautiful that actually the revolution that will ultimately touch the nations of the world is starts in the womb of, of a Virgin girl from a village that wasn't even on the map of. So, that gives us confidence in the providential plan and purpose of, of the Lord that he relentlessly works, even in the unlikely even in what looks like the unspectacular or even innocuous he is art work and he can do this and no one could have guessed that the, the young girl pregnant with her patrols young husband was, was carrying what she was carrying.
[00:32:41] So there's a, it is a remarkable when you see it in the, in the macro level, it is a remarkable, remarkable beginning. Yeah.
[00:32:48] David: And of course it's for Mary as well. So all the points that we're making as to why you wouldn't do this in Nazareth appear to be verse 29, Mary was, I mean, the Greek word is almost troubled or perturbed. Perplexed are the options, it's like, wait a minute, like, have you got the wrong address?
[00:33:09] I was trying to find a story yesterday and typed the name of the store into maps and, and it tried to take me to somewhere in Idaho rather than the store that I was looking for, which I knew was about 15 minutes away. And Mary almost has that like, wait, wait a minute.
[00:33:25] I, I get what I see what's happening here. And. Mary has trouble. And then we get this little insight that she pondered which I really I really like she is the Greek and this logins in my word is where we get, I, I, this sort of logic considering pondering, working out deliberating.
[00:33:47] I love this instant introduction to Mary. Let me say it, let me say it like this, because there's a lot of depth I think to explore in here. One thing I noticed about Mary, which is fascinating is the angel says to her, don't be afraid. But interestingly and, and, and, correct me if I'm wrong here, Joe, interestingly, she's one of the very few characters in the gospels or in scripture, actually that sees an angel and actually the text doesn't report that she is afraid.
[00:34:14] Right. So almost as if, when they do the Zachariah, when he meets angel, he's terrified. Right. And it's, there's almost a sort of subtle humor in angels. Just get used to saying don't be afraid. But the one thing that tax hasn't told us about Mary is that she's afraid instead, what we get from Mary is she tries to kind of make sense of this.
[00:34:32] She tries to logically work it out. And I love the contrast of, of all these appearances to angels, to man terrify them. But to Mary, she's just a little troubled by this and then tries to figure out what the angels aren't votes.
[00:34:45] John: No, and it may explain the difference in the reaction to Mary, from the angel Gabriel and the reaction to Zachariah Zachariah is fearful and then reacts in a dote full way. Whereas Mary ponders and asks a really sensible question, which doesn't get the reaction. So clearly Zachariah's question is a question of dote fueled by fear.
[00:35:14] Whereas Mary's question is a question we could argue of fifth fueled by this sense of, well, I'm hearing what you're saying. So you need to explain this to me. So, so I I'm what's striking of course, is she's not troubled or agitated by the Injil. She is agitated and troubled by the words. So it's the words that are getting to her, which again, shows the level of this woman's spiritual. I would also argue it's point into her intelligence. It's pointed into the facts. Hold on. This woman is she may be young, but she's, she's really already moving into, hold on, let me try and work at what's going on here rather than reacting in any superficial way. Her reaction seems to draw gear Brill further into the conversation in a way that the lows, this to move towards conclusion very, very quickly.
[00:36:10] And I think it says a lot about who Mary is. Mary is thoughtful, intelligent, and I would argue fifth filled. She, she is reacting in a fifth filled way to an unusual, an unusual approach.
[00:36:24] David: And this goes back to, this is the contrast. I think you're a hundred percent right to see the contrast that you have, and this might speak to what we're seeing by way of our preamble. You have the, the priest, the man, the, the mature Zachariah, and then you have the woman, the, the, all we know about her is that she's engaged a man called Joseph and she lives in Nazareth and she's, and she's a Virgin, that's all we actually know about her, but I think it's safe to say not a priest.
[00:36:52] And so, and and sh and she's, and she's young, which of course, in the ancient culture, isn't normally associated with wisdom and, and, and there is a, again, a status reversal. The person that should respond well responds completely like Zachariah gets himself in a world of mess, including not being able to speak for another nine months, because, because he just can't get his head round with Angel's message.
[00:37:17] And the Angel's message to Zachariah is much less startling than the angels message to Mary. I think Luke wants you to see that contrast that, that here you see the two stories told one after the other, and one is the correct way to respond to the word of God. And another is, is not so much.
[00:37:37] John: Totally.
[00:37:38] David: Fortunately Zechariah gets a second ago.
[00:37:40] Doesn't it?
[00:37:40] John: he does. He does. And that's back degree, isn't it? That's back degrees. And, and I would sort of, so, you know, in your, in your reflection on Greece that on merit generosity and gift of the Lord to us, and I would totally 100% back that.
[00:37:55] But, but within this, and this is why I would sort of as, as there a pause here is there a sense here that even though there's this generously given fever of the Lord to, to OSS. Does this suggest does her reaction to the angel suggest that there is something in her attracting the Lord and I, I wouldn't want to run away from that idea. So again, that's a dangerous idea to formulize, oh, if I can work out how to attract the favor of God, then I can press this, this, this button and get God's favor.
[00:38:32] And I don't think that's what we should be pursuing here. But I think there is something in Mary that is attracting. There must have been, there must have been many sexual virgins in, in first century Israel. So why her now of course we could argue, well, that's just God's prerogative. Or, or of course there could be something attracting the Lord to her that is more than her physical and sexual purity, but there is something attract in the Lord because there's a heart issue.
[00:39:03] And I think when we come to her song, we see that really come to the. Because you've got a young woman here who clearly is dynamically spiritual. She, she seems to know the Lord. She seems to know the scriptures. She seems to really have a sense of being able to be confronted, whatever Gabriel looked like.
[00:39:23] She's able to withstand that confrontation and not react in a normal fearful way. But actually her reaction is one of thoughtful ponderous intelligence to the, to the proposition being made by Gabriel. And I think that is leaning into who she is. I think there's something in Mary that is attracting the fear of the Lord.
[00:39:44] So I wouldn't want to over cook that. I wouldn't want to build my hosts on that, but neither would a want to reject that as an idea. I think that's lurking around in the text there.
[00:39:52] David: There's, there's something about this particular woman. I mean, Luke, doesn't fill in those details for us at the introduction, but by like you say, by the end, Mary is the one who she was, she sticks with Jesus.
[00:40:05] She, she navigates everything with Jesus. There's there's a quote from Scott McKnight about Mary and he talks about how. Mary is often presented as this kind of, what's the phrase, maiden mother meek and mild and how that actually misrepresents the Mary that we meet in scripture.
[00:40:25] And so Scott McKnight in a piece called the real Mary he's like, well, actually this, this blessed Mary, whereas ordinarily close, right? But she utters poetry fit for a political rally. She goes towards the tool with Herod the great, she reprimands her son, her Messiah son for hanging around at the temple.
[00:40:43] She, she, she follows her faith, tell him to sort out the wine situation at a wedding. She takes her children to Capernaum, to rescue Jesus from death threats. She follows him all the way to the cross, so, so she is, she's showing us something about the way that she is that isn't, isn't how we've represented her through through history.
[00:41:07] John: for
[00:41:08] on, Doesn't it sort of climax David. I mean, that idea, you've just, you've just summarized for us. And the fact that Mary's in the upper room gets filled with the spirit as well. And next chapter two, that's all going on. It, doesn't it climax for us in our story. I mean, first 30, it, I can't read verse 38 without being moved emotionally.
[00:41:27] And I've read it hundreds. Hundreds of times, and that is not an exaggeration where she says, I am, the Lord's servant may have happened to me, according to your word. I mean, I am the Lord's servant. This is, I can't hear that and not hear an echo of Moses. When, when the Lord speaks to Moses out of the Bush, Moses says, here I am, he Nini in Hebrew, it's, it's this sort of I'm here.
[00:41:53] And, and, and of course, then the contrast here is of course, Moses says I'm here to the Lord and then proceeds to argue with the Lord for the next sort of couple of chapters of Exodus to the point where the lawyer gets slightly exasperated with him at the end of that, here's Mary, a teenage girl, a young girl, a young woman. and here she is saying, I am the Lord's servant. I mean, this is, this is not just her saying, oh yeah, yeah, that's cool. Let's go for it. She's she's embracing something here. She's embracing a spiritual identity. She's embracing. An idea that is resident throat, the Tanakh throat, the Hebrew Bible. One of I am the Lord servant.
[00:42:33] This is not just me go. Oh yeah, yeah. Do what you want. No, no, I am the Lord servant. I want to honor our donee. I want to follow him. I want to serve him. I want my life. Let it be according to your word. I mean, verse 38 of Luke chapter one is, is for me, some of the greatest words spoken in the whole of the scriptures, the whole of the scriptures, and are not spoken by a scholar.
[00:42:57] They're not spoken by a hero deliver. They're not even spoken by a man. They're spoken by a young woman who clearly has a deeper relationship with auto NAI than the text is explicitly giving us. And I.
[00:43:12] think our listeners should lead into that. Our listeners should embrace the fact that we're not just looking here at a, at a young girl who happened to be a. We are looking at a girl who is a Virgin, but she happens to be deeply spiritual. She happens to be a deeply committed follower of the Lord and walking in some sense of personal covenant relationship with him, not just corporate relationship
[00:43:39] through the covenant. So to me, it's all over that. And I think then your description of Mary and what she does throughout the gospel story, only backs all of that up.
[00:43:48] She is more than a mother. She's more than a wife. She is a woman of God, and she is magnificently representing that in, in the look and taxed.
[00:43:58] David: The danger of, of overemphasizing Mary, as perhaps some Christian traditions have done is you end up with this, this meek and mild mother, the danger of the other side is that you ignore.
[00:44:12] Her, and you just vaguely aware that Jesus has a mother and, and you're missing this incredible presentation of, of a real disciple of Jesus. Actually, she becomes a true disciple of her own son with, with the way that she is. And, even in your description in verse 38, you can't help, but, but feel some of the Isaiah.
[00:44:35] Illusions there of, of, of here I am send me, and I think that the translators are trying to draw us towards those parallels because I think Luke intends you to feel them that, that she is, she is moving in the true prophetic traditions of the old Testament. Mary is here and I I like that a lot.
[00:44:55] So two, two other things, one really quickly, let's just jump into even more controversy at, for a second. The I'm just trying to get us in trouble today, John, it feels like this is what happens when it's cold.
[00:45:07] John: It's I was going to say it's clearly the temperature doing that to your debit. That's
[00:45:10] David: true. The Greek word parsin us which is translated here in the text as Virgin. Okay. I have seen quite a few PCs over the years which pick up on the fact that the word Parthenon kind of really probably just means a young girl. And, and so people that have struggled a little bit with the notion of Virgin conception, which is to be fair is actually the biblical to be really correct.
[00:45:38] It's the biblical languages, virginal conception of, of Jesus. There's people have tried to get around that, which okay. Actually the word parts in us doesn't really mean Virgin, as we would understand Virgin mean, it just means a young, a young girl, and therefore you don't really need to believe in the Virgin birth.
[00:45:55] This is, have you encountered this idea and in some of your reading. So, so a couple of things I just want to make comment on that is.
[00:46:02] John: that,
[00:46:02] David: Number one, that's true. The Parthenon does, probably just mean young girl. However, in the sort of culture of Jesus's time, there's really not a grand definitional difference between Virgin and young girls.
[00:46:17] So we're, we're imposing interpretation to suggest that, Virgin and young girl in those times are different things. Bear in mind, we're talking the difference between young girl and Virgin. You were probably talking about preteen early teen girls. So in a culture that valued and protected children, the idea of, of, of, of Mary B.
[00:46:36] Sexually active is, is really problematic in that, in that sort of culture and do, and it would be an art culture at her age as well. We're not talking about a 35 year old lady, we're talking about, a young girl now. So that's, that's a key piece to sort of track in there that sometimes we're trying to be too clever in order to navigate our way out of the thing.
[00:46:58] Now what's interesting, and this is the reason I want to raise this because the English translation sometimes just for help help us, and then don't help us because verse 27, there is a Parthenon, a Virgin or a younger pledged to be married and, and her name was, was Mary. Right? So, so we've got, we, we've got that there in, in verse, in verse 20 in verse 27.
[00:47:22] Right. But And actually she's called apart from those twice in one verse. Right? So even if you were to take a really clever interpretation and say, well, apart from the us doesn't mean Virgin actually means it actually means young woman Mary's then going to cause you some problems, a few verses later in verse 34, which the English translations have may receive.
[00:47:44] How can I this be, since I am a Virgin, and now we might assume that the word behind that, that use of Virgin there is Parthenon us. And we go, I, and Mary is just saying, how can this be? I'm very young, but actually Mary uses a Greek idiom for basically I've never slept with anybody. Right? So, so here's the thing, whether or not.
[00:48:04] So let's just for arguments sake, suggest that Parthenon does just mean young woman and it has nothing to do with sex or sexual behavior. Mary corners, you out of that by verse 34, because she makes the problem through the angel is, as you said, this very perceptive question. I hear what you're saying.
[00:48:21] There's just one problem that I'm dealing with here that, that, that you're going to have to help me with. And so my kind of commentary on that, John really quickly is just this, I think Luke corners, you to ask you a question about the miraculous and unfortunately, unfortunately I don't think he gives you a choice.
[00:48:44] You either, you either believe that Jesus. Is the result of the work of the holy spirit in Mary's life or, or you don't, but he doesn't give you a way to read this story where Jesus is just a normal birth. And in one sense, let's just get that out of the way in chapter one, because by the end of this story, I'm going to ask you to believe that child came back to life after he was crucified.
[00:49:10] So, so stretch out your, your view of the miraculous, because I'm not going to give you a way out. I mean, that's how I read that, John. I don't know if that's unfair, but
[00:49:19] John: No, no, I, I, I wouldn't even go anywhere near it on the fair. I think that's exactly what Luke is doing. And as if to enforce that from a, from a, almost a supernatural point of view, if we, if we go do further down into the end of the story that we've read today, Elizabeth, when Mary walks into Elizabeth's presence, it says that Bebe leaped, as you rightly said at the time, the one who would be known as John, the Baptist leaps within her womb and Elizabeth is filled with the holy spirit.
[00:49:51] So you get a prenatal response from the person will know as John to the presence of the prenatal, some of the most high in the womb of Mary at this stage, you'll ne three months prior to. And then you, Elizabeth gets filled with the spirit, which is a an action associated with, with the work of, of Jesus in, in, in terms of the litter, Luke and Corpus.
[00:50:15] So you get this dynamic idea of this leaping, this unmissable idea that this isn't just John kicking, it's a leap. It's, it's the prenatal John responding to the prenatal Jesus. So if you are prepared to link the language son of the most high th the fact that Mary herself says, I have not known a man.
[00:50:38] That's the literal translation. Isn't it of that verse 34. I don't know anybody. That's the idea. Sometimes we would sound Belfast and new in the biblical sense. And, and that's exactly that, that sort of idiom that you're referring to. I haven't known anyone and so the holy spirit will, will come upon you.
[00:50:55] And then as she enters the presence of Elizabeth, we get this super natural reaction. Prenatal be a beat, responding to another premier natal BRB and the mother of the first prenatal be a bait gets filled with the spirit. I mean, Dr. Luke is leaving you with nowhere to go on this. This is a super natural moment and he, he encourages us to embrace the supernatural nature of this moment from the very get go from the moment Gabriel appears to Zachariah on off we go.
[00:51:27] And the first four chapters of Luke's gospel are saturated with the charismatic activity of the holy spirit. We're getting miraculous intervention rate across the story. So this, this is not coincidence. That list is not accidental. This I think is very intentional and deliberate from, from Dr. Luke and his theological position here.
[00:51:47] David: so, John, I feel like we've skirted about as close as we can with idioms to losing RPG rating. And so why don't we land this episode here and then we'll be back in the next episode to jump from this encounter that Mary has with Elizabeth into her response, which is perhaps one of the most beautiful pieces of scripture that, that we could, we could potentially read.
[00:52:17] John: Absolutely. Let's do that. And you go and get warm, go and get warm Lord
[00:52:21] Outro: So that's it for our first Christmas bonus episode, we'll be back in two days time for the second part of this particular story about Mary. So until then, You've got two whole extra seasons of two texts, podcasts that you can go and listen to. And we'll be back in two days time.