Help My Unbelief | Miracles 8

In which John and David explore faith and doubt in the midst of a miracle of Jesus. Is our paradigm of faith a little too simplistic? Does our need for certainty create crises for us that aren't necessary. Is Jesus ok when our doubt seems a little overwhelming?

• Click Here to read the text from Mark 7:24-37. 
• Click Here to read the article by Michael Gerson that contained the quote "Faith, thankfully does not preclude doubt. It consists instead of staking your life on the rumor of grace."

Episode Outline

• 1:28 Mark 9
• 7:18 Jesus and Moses
• 17:00 A Conversation on Faith
• 26:02 If you can help
• 39:05 Faith and Doubt
• 44:24 A Quick Tour of Gospel Doubt
• 51:16 Which kind?
• 1:02:24 Is he dead?

Two Texts Podcast will return in September

Episode 25 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 8

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Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Chapters

• 1:28 Mark 9
• 7:18 Jesus and Moses
• 17:00 A Conversation on Faith
• 26:02 If you can help
• 39:05 Faith and Doubt
• 44:24 A Quick Tour of Gospel Doubt
• 51:16 Which kind?
• 1:02:24 Is he dead?

Transcript

Transcript is autogenerated

David: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm David Harvey and I'm here with John Andrews and this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries. Here every two weeks talking about two different texts taken from the Bible. This is our second season. And it's about the miracles of Jesus. We're halfway through this season at the moment we've talked about Matthew's gospel and Mark's gospel. 

We're going to take a small break for the rest of August and be back for the second half of this season. At the beginning of September, we'll talk about miracles in Luke's gospel and also in John. But for today, this is episode eight. And it's called help. My Belief.  So John for our second text this week, we are in mark chapter nine. Fantastic miracle story. Once again this one with a lot of interesting things going on and a lot of things , we can discuss and have some fun chatting around, but you're going to read this text for us. So I'm gonna invite everybody to sit comfortably, cause it's a slightly longer reading than we than we often do.

So, make sure your air con in the car is set just right.

And and this is mark chapter nine and verse 14, 

John: [00:01:28] yeah. And if you're currently running, listening to this, this will probably cover a good male and a half for you. So here we go. Right? Okay. Here we go. So verse 14, chapter nine says when they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them and the teachers of the law, arguing with them.

As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and to greet him. What are you arguing with them about? He asked Amman and the Crow dancer teacher. I brought you my son who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the grind. He forms at the mouth.

Neisha says teeth and becomes rigid. I asked her disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not. Oh, unbelieving generation. Jesus replied. How long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with. Bring the boy to me. So they brought him when the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion.

He ran, he fell to the grind and rolled around foaming at the mouth. Jesus asked the boy's father, how long has he been like this from childhood? He answered. It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us. If you can say Jesus, everything is possible for him.

Who believes immediately the boy's father exclaimed. I do believe help me overcome my unbelief. When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the unclean spirit. You deaf and mute spirit. He said, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again. The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out.

The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said he's dead, but Jesus took him by the hand, lifted into his feet and he stood up after Jesus had gone indoors. His disciples asked him privately, why couldn't we drive it out? He replied this caned can come out only by prayer.

David: [00:03:51] Is a story is it's quite, it's quite it texts and the so much in this, John, I almost want to break it up into, into sections. You've got, you've got what's actually going on in this story, the healing, and then this sort of fascinating interaction between the father and Jesus. Jesus.

So I feel like we should, we should try and approach this story in it's different parts because otherwise I feel like you meet could be like two kids with an unlimited budget in a candy store and just, just run around in circles, all the fun stuff that's in this, in this tag.

So in a very typical way for you, me, and it's probably worth just saying that. The, the Jesus has just come from this quite miraculous situation which we, we talk about as the, the transfiguration of Jesus, where at the beginning of the, of the chapter, Jesus has gone up onto this mountain with James and Peter and John.

And they've had this, this remarkable situation where, where Jesus has, has been transfigured, he's been changed somehow in front of them. And Delilah and Moses have appeared with Jesus, this highly kind of mesenteric sort of scene. And. And you hear this voice from God about Jesus being the beloved son, this echo of what happens in his, in his baptism story.

So Jesus is arriving into our story today off the back of this hugely empowering kind of encouraging type moment. He's been with these two great figures of, of Israel in some sort of miraculous transfiguration scene. He's heard his father's voice tell him and remind him once again you are my beloved son and he comes down to.

This crowd, and then just notice this at verse 14. So they came to the disciples. There's a great crowd around them with some scribes, arguing with them. They always seem to be there doing that. When the crowd saw him just to notice this, they were immediately overcome with all on, they ran to greet him.

It's a strange little comment there. Why are they overcome with all at just seeing Jesus and some scholars have wondered this. We saw Jesus be transfigured Right.

The language it says, let me just read the language for you. Just there. It says in verse three of chapter nine, his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one on earth could bleach them. And this sort of this sense that this sort of the sense that we assume that that's all stopped and and Jesus is back to normal, but some scholars just point out that it's really interesting that the text doesn't say that and the crowd see Jesus under somehow. Overcome with art, the sight of him.

And it has, and bear in mind, we've seen moseys, it has this sort of, almost echo of moseys when he comes down from the mountain with, with the law that people Can't look at him, he's shining bright and it's, it's too much to take in. I know it's just, it's interesting just that normally people being overcome with arc happens after the miracle, but Jesus arrives on the scene and some thing is something that mark doesn't exactly spell out for us is causing the people to be overwhelmed by Jesus, his presence. 

John: [00:07:18] Yes. Yes. And I don't think we can move into this story without acknowledging aging, that linked to what has happened previously. I think it is significant, so whatever they are seeing and, Absolutely. We have reflected before many times on the Moses Jesus link. This would be, this would be a fairly recognizable nuance for a Jewish audience.

No trouble at all. Maybe for a Gentile audience needs a bit of educating, but certainly the sense of calming down from a mountain of encounter and still something of the resonance of that being communicated in some way or another. Absolutely. And of course again mark Matthew and Luke follow the trajectory that, that you've got this sort of previously, this confession from Jesus, you're the Christ, the son of the living, God.

And then you move into this transfiguration moment about a week later, and then you have this incredible encounter, which again, Seems random. So you've just got Jesus coming down off the mountain and he's confronted by a particular situation. But of course, I think what mark and the other gospel writers are trying to do is link this situation to what has also just happened.

And I think you cannot read what's about to happen in this story with this young man being liberated from this demon, with what we have just witnessed on this mountain of transfiguration and the previous confession from Peter. So there is a messianic trajectory, definitely being created here by mark and he's ease.

And this particular miracle is one that cements that idea very, very powerfully in the mains of his, his listeners and readers potentially.

David: [00:09:11] and do you think , there's a contrast there then where Jesus.

his comments, what you faithless generation, you unbelieving generation, how much longer must I be among you? How much longer must I put up with you? It just, it feels, again, I, I'm almost thinking about Moses and he comes down from the mountain and while he's been away, you just, chaos has ensued amongst the people of Israel.

To the extent that Moses goes up the mountain to hear from the Lord who rescued them. And when he comes back down, they're all idol, worshipers, and they've built a golden calf and you get his sense of moseys going, like how long they stay away. And you almost feel this resonance of. Yeah, I want to be cautious of ascribing exasperations to Jesus in this, but that sense that, I'm, I've just come back from this, this beautiful moment with my father and this beautiful moment of, of transfiguration.

And I'm now right back into the mud of it. It's had a John, you and I have both been pastors For a long time. And so we've both experienced that phenomena of just a really good gathering of, of God's people and things have gone really well. And you're really excited about it. And then you get that Monday morning email from somebody that didn't enjoy what you were doing and it it's like, we've no  lost cabin pressure, and we're back, we're back to earth.

Again. I feel that.

from Jesus here, it's a little bit like, oh my goodness. 

John: [00:10:44] Yeah. Yeah. 

David: [00:10:45] you feel that. 

John: [00:10:46] Oh, totally. And the language is strong. Isn't it? Unbelief. Generation, it's it's so what are they unbelieving about is no, again, our, our, our default maybe translation of that would be well they're unbelieving because the context is they've tried to get this demon out of this boy.

That's what the unbelieving, but there's about, but is that what's going on here or is there a wider context that actually, Jesus frustration is not just a moment with this boy, but the fact that he is contending with the generation, that is, that is grappling with ideas, but missing God's person right. In the midst of them.

Which of course, if you, if you reflect on that lovely Mo Moses motif in there , if it's there again, , it's a beautiful connection  that Moses comes down from the maintenance. Then you've got this chaos. Raining. We threw in this gold note Kim, a calf I, and yet you've gone.

What, so, so you've, you've got this, this tension that Moses is constantly dealing with of of trying to ship people, trying to get people, to see the heart of God. And that seems to reflect the cm tension that Jesus has exasperated here in some way, by the fact that he's just come off this Mount and having met with Moses and Elijah and the, the, this, this grit law and the prophets meeting with Jesus, which then forms the backdrop to this dramatic miracle.

So, yeah.

David: [00:12:21] Of course it is worth mentioning that, you unbelieving generation, how much longer must I be amongst you? How much longer must I put up with you, but then notice bring him to me. So, so, so Jesus is exasperations. If that's what it is, doesn't prevent him wanting to still help. And I think that's, and that's actually going to become important later in this particular story.

And so he's exasperated. This this boy.

has been brought to the disciples and, and notice again for the second time in this week we have a situation of a person who is, is unable to speak. So, but for very different reasons, it seems like the first one, there was some sort of physiological challenge for, for, for the man in our earlier episode this week.

And now we have this being demonic that there's something and not only is the boy unable to speak but whenever it sees him, it throws him down and he forms and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. And contemporary readers might read this and think, Okay.

wait a minute. This sounds like, this sounds like a, something that we might, some say almost epileptic, this demon is causing something which is in, in that sort of in that sort of context.

So, so it's an interesting little  background story. Then you've got this, shell over the top about faith and the question about believing. And then in it, you have this story around this boy who needs liberating, that the disciples are unable to unable to help with an unable to cast it out.

So enter Jesus into the scene. 

John: [00:13:55] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think what's lovely if we can reflect back to our last episode we saw though that people brought the mom to Jesus. We reflected on the story of the, the woman from Syria and for an issue, he said she, she brought the request of her daughter to Jesus.

And here we have this man bringing his song to Jesus. So again, you have, you have these beautiful sort of moments where we're clearly though Jesus is trying to keep a lid on the reputation and the spread of the word it's getting out to the point where people are bringing people to him. And they're saying, please help us know, clearly this man brought his son while Jesus was up the mountain with Peter James and John.

And hence the disciples probably by the sounds of it. Weren't able to do it and up getting into an argument with the teachers of the law, which I think is worth coming back to when we reflect on Jesus' conclusion in this whole matter. I think there's probably a reason for that argument, but Jesus walks down the mountain into it, food flowing argument over this boy and okay.

Over the fact that in some ways they haven't been able to help him and this poor man in the middle of it, he's just, he's he's collateral damage. There's not a theological argument raging around him. And all he wanted was some help for his son. And, and again, doesn't it. Doesn't it show me maybe this is part of Jesus' frustration.

Doesn't it show you that sometimes we end up getting caught up with the wrong stuff. We ended up, we ended up getting into an argument over something X that's not the point. The point is X that's trying to help this boy. And then the person that that was brought to is ends up losing out because we get consumed in an argument and then you get Jesus cutting through into that and said, okay, bring him to me.

That's that's get this sorted out. Bring the boy to me. And so, yeah, I, I think you've got this lovely, repeated idea of not only Jesus touching the crossroads, going to the crowds, going to people, but you get this no repeated idea of people bringing people to Jesus because the word is out. And because they're desperate and you're getting a sort of an activation almost of someone else's fifth on behalf of.

Which seems to be a beautiful little idea that runs through the gospels. The four friends who, who break through the roof to get their friend don't did Jesus when he's being completely paralyzed. And the, the woman who speaks on behalf of her daughter, the people who bring the man and know the father who brings his son, Jarvis, who speaks on behalf of his little daughter, you're getting these beautiful little bringing moments which I think that the ministry of Jesus is, is reaching, is engaging and connecting to people in the wait-list reams of society at this moment.

That's just beautiful. I think

David: [00:17:00] And actually important to identify that. When contemporary conversations around the work of Jesus and the work of the holy spirit and healing happen, you do often hear a very confident conversation around faith and how people that might hope for God to work miraculously in their lives need to have faith.

And it's interesting to me to note that in Mark's gospel and in the other gospels, lots of different people can have faith and it doesn't necessarily so be cautious. I would say of trying to work out strategies and structures and models for healing. I see this a lot, this certain genre of Christian writing, and it's like, oh, this is how it happens.

But what you see is actually that can be a whole host of people that are, are believing and trusting in Jesus. And so, so you get this, you get that. Boy. And I think it's also worth saying that, although the appearance of what happens, and I read this quite a lot in scholarly works that the appearance of what happens looks like some sort of seizure, the, the happening something that might appear along the lines of some sort of epilepsy or something like

that.

But notice mark is not saying, Mark's not just some under informed ancient person that goes all. That must be a demon because notice that. The, the spirit reacts to the presence of Jesus, right.

So there's a lot can be said about what happens with these sort of evil spirits, unclean spirits, and demons in the new Testament.

And, and again, it's one of these subject areas that people often speak about very confidently and the new Testament actually leaves quite vague and quite undescribed, but it's worth noting that the evil spirits and the evil powers are never comfortable in the presence of Jesus. So, so that's where, so mark is definitely saying, well, whatever, this looks like, there's something evil, which is causing this to happen.

Something very deeply dark is, is, is causing this reaction to the presence of 

John: [00:19:11] yes. Yes, 

David: [00:19:13] you say okay with me explaining that, 

John: [00:19:14] I do do I, I love the phrase in verse 20 and having seen him. So when they saw Jesus I, I think that's, that's unmissable. So mark is really helping us there. And again, it's reinforcing ideas. We've come across before where demonic forces on Jesus, can't inhabit the seam sorts of spaces. So something's gotta give, so in an attempt to get away from Jesus, perhaps we may want to see this interpret this they're they're literally trying to destroy the boy.

And again, doesn't it show us this, not just an idea that we've lent into before that Jesus and demonic forces can't be in the same space, but also the complete opposites and the two kingdoms being represented here. Here's a kingdom that Jesus represents, which is about bringing a site to blame dyes and healing, to brokenness and speech, to those who can't speak and freedom from those who are oppressed.

This is his theme. This is his kingdom. This is the kingdom he's bringing. And the kingdom that he is now being confronted with in mark nine is literally even now it's, it's done it all through this boy's life. It seems. But even now in the face of potential deliverance the, these demons are trying to destroy this boy's life and you know what, whatever we say about darkness, demons late, and the kingdom of God, one of the, one of the overwhelming hallmarks of the fruit of the kingdom of darkness is destruction.

It seeks to destroy those that participate in it. It seeks to destroy those who are at the wrong end of it. It's never about building people up and if ever people receive anything from it, it's, there's never, it's never without strings attached. It's always about controlling, manipulating and destroying humans.

And that is the antithesis of everything God created in the garden of Eden. God created something that would reflect his image, his glory, his majesty aren't expressed ultimately in the freedom of purpose. And here you have a boy completely, completely at the mercy. It seems he's demonized. He is, he can't even control his movements at certain points because this demon has such control of him.

And, and ho however, however you wanna think about those things in the 21st century, if the new Testament guides us in any way, as it shows us the complete divergence between these two kingdoms and, and the, the consequences of their fruit in our lives,

David: [00:21:51] And mark seems to be doing something programmatic with all of that. Like, I love that you've picked up on that notion of that his intention is to destroy him. So I, yeah, I'd love that myself, but, but notice that, like you go back to mark chapter three and mark chapter three, verse 27, Jesus is talking about Jesus being accused of, a variety of things of being a satanic worker himself.

Jesus just throws this line. No one can enter a strong person's house and plunder his property without first tying them. Then indeed the house can be plundered, right? And, and it's pretty, it's pretty strong language, not the sort of language you'd often associate with Jesus. But I think that mark is showing us throughout this gospel in the miracle stories of Jesus.

This is Jesus binding the strong man. This is Jesus doing exactly what he said is that I'm bringing the kingdom. But in order to bring the kingdom, I got to deal with some of the problems that are here. So, so this whole miracle story fits into Mark's bigger agenda of helping us understand who Jesus is.

That here we have, the powers of evil are trying to destroy someone. And the structure destruction of people is exactly what Jesus is here to stop. So he's going to do something about that. So it fits, it fits into the larger narrative of the story of Jesus in the gospel. Doesn't it. 

John: [00:23:17] Yes, it does. Totally. And of course the irony of the end of that mark three, that passage, it says Jesus was saying this because they said he had an evil spirit. He was being driven, manipulated himself by evil spirits. And of course, Jesus ultimate wisdom in that as well. A host of aided against itself will ultimately crumble.

This is, this is crazy. Oh. And by the way, if I'm casting out demons by evil spirits, how are you doing it? So there is a challenge that you serene don't because it's, it is not just something to do with his ma Messiah ship, which we'll probably reflect on here. But it's also to do with the fact that he.

Contending with a religious community that we'd have exorcism as part of its world. And exorcism was not an unusual idea. Exorcism was not a unique concept to Jesus. It would have been practiced by other religious groups in the day of Jesus. But of course, there's something about this exorcism, which stands out dramatically in that, but it fits broadly of course, into the program of Jesus to destroy the kingdom of darkness as it were and bring people into the kingdom of light.

David: [00:24:29] And,  with that agenda when Jesus actually then rebukes this unclean spirit, , the two part of the, of the rebuke is quite interesting. So in the one half DS is says, You need to, you need to come out of him, but the other half is a Never enter him again.

And that, that seems like a, a little piece of definition that you don't see in necessarily some of the other accesses in spite of Jesus, but this, this real drive again, to show what Jesus is doing. It's not just that I'm going to stop this right here, but it's stopping. And, and we're not going back into this.

He's breaking the cycles of, of evil and destruction, which I think is a beautiful theme. 

John: [00:25:12] Totally it's well, that's the redemptive, isn't it? It's it's, I'm not just gonna come in and clean the house, but we're going to transform the house. We're going to ensure that nothing returns to this house ever again, of a destructive nature. And that is the glory of redemption and salvation that he has come to Poot to use again, the analogy of the house.

He's come to put it under new ownership. And in, in binding up the strong man of that house, he can indeed clean the house and repopulate it with light and hope and truth. And and that's what he clearly is doing for the young man. 

David: [00:25:50] Yeah.

his car. It's quite, it's quite beautiful. Actually. When you think about that, there Jesus's is cleaning the house and, and changing the locks 

John: [00:25:59] Lovely. That's beautiful. 

David: [00:26:01] this place life back together. 

John: [00:26:02] I, and of course like the, the inference seems to be that this, this, this boy has suffered a long time with this. So ho w when Jesus actually asked him, how long has he been like this from childhood now? We're not sure how old the boy was, but from childhood which, which seems to imply it's been going on for, for a long time.

And, and isn't it gorgeous what the father says, but if you can't do anything he said is take pity on us and help us verse 22 tick petty on us and help us. And how passion we've, we've lent into that word. Every time Jesus has this. He does something when he has this sort of sense of movement in his bowel.

He ends up doing something and maybe, maybe the man's connecting that idea. If you have this sort of compassion on us, then something that's about to change and something will change and appealing to that. So, so you, you, you really do sense the brokenness of this man. You said. Any parent who's raised a child and has had either illness issues with that child, or maybe even behavioral issues or Stouffer's come into the, the, the world of your children that has kept you up every night.

You will absolutely empathize with the desperation of this father, just as we heard the echo of the desperation of the mother this, the Greek lady, the Sarah Phoenician, who appealed on behalf of her daughter. You're getting, you're getting this echo of desperation crane out to the kingdom of God to come and bring relief and, and she'll petty and ensure help.

So it's beautiful. Beautiful.

David: [00:27:44] That introduces , this new layer , to this account, , which has, I think, drawn Christians towards it. They've been reading Mark's gospel for a long time because you start to realize. 

John: [00:27:55] to 

David: [00:27:55] Mark is writing this gospel, not as just a nice account of Jesus, but he has a discipleship agenda.

He wants you to think about following Jesus in all of this. So this question, if you are able is clearly one that.

then captures Jesus a little bit. So you get this response from Jesus. Like if you are able, all things can be done for the one who believes. And now you start to see this, the second layer where we started this question about the, the unbelieving generation.

Now we've come back. This issue of belief has re raised its head again within this, within this story. Which is interesting. Cause you realize that marks again, doing a lot of work. In the passage, isn't he, he's telling you a miracle story, but he's also clearly wanting to get you to think about belief, about trust, about what faith is and how faith works.

So that would almost be the subtext to the story. Wouldn't it? 

John: [00:28:56] Yeah, completely. I, and I love, I love this question of Jesus. If you are able, at any says this next thing, all things are possible to the one to the person believing. So, so now we w I mean, it's a bit of a risk here. We often interpret that as Jesus saying to the man. Okay. Anything's possible to the one who believing.

And of course he answers. I do believe help my unbelief. But sometimes I've reflected on that and it could be over cooking it. So please correct me, but sometimes have reflected because the answer relates to the question. If you are able and it's like, Jesus is saying, well, I army, well, I I'm able to do this.

I can speak to this demon I have in myself, the authority and also the fifth. So it, so there's a sense in which the obvious interpretation of this he's asking the man to believe we get that we're with that. And the mom picks that up, but there's another sense of which is it? Is it Jesus saying, well, it's possible for me because I believe it's possible for me because actually I, in the face of this, this demon, I'm the one that the demon ultimately is going to listen to.

And I'm the one that the demon ultimately will obey. So I, and isn't it fascinating. At the transfiguration, the words are slightly different from the baptism words. This is my son whom I love identical to his baptism, but then it says at the transfiguration, listen to him, there's something about his words, not just who he is, but what he says that has the power to bring transformation here.

And of course, Jesus is about to say some words. Jesus is about to see some things in the context of this demonized position, but he's also saying something to the man. So I hope I'm not over stretch and that I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily in a want to build my house on that. But I like, I like the little nuance, if you can't well, if you're able, well, I army bubble because, because he's standing there with both kind of say this carefully faith and authority in this context, I 

David: [00:31:14] Yeah. 

John: [00:31:15] don't know if that is too much of a stretch.

David: [00:31:17] Well,  I think these things are always worth exploring the possible nuances of what goes on in this context . Like I often would encourage people to remember that the language of trust.

And belief are the same word in the Greek. And, and so, so when you're thinking about, the one who trusts the one who believes the one who has faith, there's a lot of nuances to what we mean now.

And one of the challenges, particularly if you've come from a Protestant Christian background is you hear the word belief and you immediately start to think about belief in a set of doctrines and belief in a set of ideas. So if you, if you go to a lot of Christians and say, oh, what do you believe?

They'll point you to a section on their church website, which has a list of things. W w so I sometimes try and change that language up about to reflect the Greek. And he said, well, what do you trust? What do you trust in? Anything's possible for the one who trusts Jesus anyone is, and at some level of course, Jesus is trusting the father throughout this story.

Jesus  is remaining loyal and having cause the language of,  faith and trust also is the language of fidelity, of loyalty, , of commitment of there's a writer recently to utilize the language of faith in terms of allegiance, right? Of where do you. Connect yourself to, where have you put, where have you pitched your tent 

and now that to me is really interesting. It, you've got this battle between the forces of evil and Jesus in this scene, and they've clashed the, the, this demonic forces now throwing this man to the ground and, and Jesus might be having a conversation about, Well, what do you trust in me? Is this the side that you want to be on?

Because clearly the way the side that you're presently on is destroying your son. So there's an invitation to, to have allegiance to a different way of being in a different thinking in that. So, so I think all of these nuances are kind of floating around in there, Jonna for the trust of Jesus and what he's called to do.

And and then of course the, the man's response, I just find. The man's response tells me that that mark is talking to us. He wants us to hear this story and hear these words as, as, as contemporary people as well, I believe, but help in literally, there's a sense in the Greek. It's like, I believe help my unbelieving.

It's this, there's two sort of ideas contracting together. And I would think that for a lot of people, if they really reflect on this, this might even be a difficult verse in verse 24, because within the sort of Christian tradition. Because belief we've put so much emphasis on believing and so much emphasis on believing the right things, even to the extent that some Christians think that they or some Christians have been led to believe that you're actually saved and rescued by believing.

Right. Forgetting that, of course the Bible always pushes us towards you. You are believing in Jesus and it's his grace that has rescued you. It's always the new Testament, always like it's Jesus. That is the rescuer. But I find myself in some traditions. Sometimes it almost sounds like that physically.

No, it's me. It's my absolute believing. in this, that, that does the salvation work, which therefore means that the one thing above all things that Christians must be terrified about.

John: [00:35:00] is

David: [00:35:01] Is doubt 

John: [00:35:02] Yeah, 

David: [00:35:02] is unbelieving 

John: [00:35:04] yeah, 

David: [00:35:05] because that implies, maybe you're not a proper Christian. Maybe you're not saved. Some people might even say, and I find this passage, I've talked to several people over the years about this passage and This

one causes a problem.

How can you say to Jesus? I believe, and also kind of don't believe. 

John: [00:35:23] Yes, yes. And the reaction of Jesus, I find really helpful. So Jesus, actually, in the midst of the story, you expect Jesus to call a timeout. Well, okay. Let's have a conversation about what it means to believe and what it means to not believe. And here's the about to believe in, you're going to do in order to, but actually Jesus doesn't even respond to this step.

You just, it just then. So like it says the very next day when Jesus saw that the crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the unclean spirit. Wow. So he doesn't even then say, okay, that's an interesting conversation. It seems to be that it seems to me that the reaction of Jesus shows in some way, what is about to happen is less to do with the level of the believing of the father and more to do with what Jesus wants to accomplish here.

And, and it is a conundrum, there are moments where Jesus commands people for their fifth, and we have to see that, understand that. And then there are moments where it has clearly very little to do with the believing levels of the person receiving the. Or the blessing or the healing or the miracle.

And so I think within that tension, we must, we must be careful to understand that actually it's not about necessarily fear, levels and trust levels, but it's ultimately about his authority, his grace, his power and his majesty know what the indirection is within that high, that connected different scenarios.

I, I'm not exactly certain. I, I confess to our listeners, this is still a work in progress for me, but what I do see here is that Jesus hears the man, but doesn't respond to what the man says. Instead, he just acts, he gets on and does this And so everything is possible to the one who believes is that, is that directed at the mom or, or is that Jesus saying, let me show you what it looks like when, when there's a trust level in the word of the father, what we can actually do here could both things be at play here under four.

What we're seeing is as much the trust of Jesus and it, doesn't John pick it up. Jesus uses language, like whatever I see the father doing, I do. I, the only thing I do is what the father does. The only words I say, you do have a sense of Jesus. However, we understand this in the context of the mystery and glory of the Trinity, you have Jesus aligning himself with the agenda of the father, even though he is God himself and the distinct person within that Godhead, yet he submits to whatever the father wants at a particular moment.

Remember, he's just come down. The mountain is just met with the father. And he's coming out of that perhaps with the sense of, let me show you what trust looks like. It's actually not don't do your trust. It's it's don't to doing to me. So I, I mean, I don't know, I'm thinking a better load. I know that may turn a bit raggedy to our listeners, but one of the things we've tried to do in this podcast is be really onerous, but honest about stuff with think we've got a measure of confidence on and clarity.

And also we've tried to be honest about, oh, I'm not quite sure what that really means, but, but we catch the heart of it as we try to understand it. I think what we mustn't do is make a formula out of it. 

David: [00:39:05] no, 

John: [00:39:05] think, that's the danger because once you start going rate. Faith is the key for everybody.

Then, then we're into, well, how much fierce and what does that look like? And explain the moments when I had fear that nothing happened and explain the moments when they didn't really believe in something that happened because that's part of all of our journey. Isn't it?

David: [00:39:23] Yes, , totally.  I can't help, but think of Paul's language in Philippians three and verse 12 where I  so literally reading of it, Paul, he's talking about what he, what he experienced is in Jesus.

And he's talking about the righteousness that Christ has brought to him. And, but then he just says this, he says this, but I've not already achieved this. And then  a lot of English.

translations tidy this up because it is a messy, hard to understand piece of Greek, but he basically seems to say, I've Not yet.

reached perfection, but I press on, hoping to take hold of that.

For which Christ Jesus. Already took hold of me. So, so I like, this is how I find myself looking at this text. And anyway, John is that, Paul is saying, listen, I'm, I'm trying to keep doing this. And I'm trying to get there and believe this and trust this properly, but all of mine.

Trust and all of my belief is always a response to what Jesus has done first. I think it's that the Pauline scholar,  JL, Martin says that God doesn't respond to us. He always moves first. So we think God is responding to us, but he has already. Reached out to us and grabbed us and, answered us beforehand.

So I sometimes imagine it like that, that Jesus has gotten me. That is without a doubt. Let me just talk about it personally in that sense. So, so Paul seems to be saying that Jesus has got me and that is unequivocal. That's just definite. And therefore,  given that he's got me, I'm safe. The question is now I want to try and grasp onto him with the same level that he is grasping.

To me. And I kind of hear that in this mark story here as well, I see Jesus, I believe, but help my unbelief. Well, of course that's okay because Jesus has got this man. Jesus has got this boy. And, and what we tend to do within the modern Protestant context anyway, is assume that if I start to feel a little shaky in my faith in Jesus, that everything gets a little shaky.

But Paul definitely, and you see it through the gospels as well, because none of that's not how it works. You might get shaky. You might even get a little faithless, but God cannot deny himself. He, he will continue to, to, to hold on.

to that. So that's kind of, that's one aspect that I think might be going on here that, that might relate to what you're saying. 

John: [00:41:56] Oh, for sure. It's so beautiful. Beautiful LinkedIn, really gorgeous. And, and, and, and it seems to help, the dad has enough trust to bring Jesus, to bring the boy to Jesus. So, so maybe that's, but then he's, but then maybe expressing, but I haven't got a clue how this is going to get fixed because we've never seen anybody like this get fixed.

Which again, leans into this sort of messianic Saint or something in the way this boy is demonized, which means this is a more difficult place, a more difficult context for the local exorcism experts, because it's a spirit that has robbed him of speech. So I think the DOD is going, I look, my faith has got me here, but I've no clue what to do next.

I don't know. And then, and that's, and then that lends exactly into this Congress. Well, that's okay. God's got it. I, I, I love it. My, my youngest daughter was, was chatting with someone once on a plane and offered to pray for them. And the person said as my daughter offered to pray for them, well, I, I don't really believe in God.

And she said, that's okay. I do. So it's like, it's. As he told me that story, as we picked up our cases, getting off the plane and I thought that is so cool. Actually that person on the plane did need to believe. Actually well I believe in God. And, and is that the dynamic happening, happening here with the money?

The father and Jesus, he goes, I, I do believe, but helped me and yet Jesus has already expressed to him. It's okay, I've got this. I can take care of this. You may be struggling to believe how this has going to work out, but I got this and I think there's much more. I think humans like nice straight lanes on issues of belief and fear and what triggered, what and what made, what and what resulted in what and where we're always looking for formula and straight lanes and answers and, and the ability to make sure we've got everything where it's.

And I think the gospel story shores, sometimes moments of, of mass and, and sponginess, but it's actually, it's actually showing us that he's still able, even if we're not quite sure what faith and trust looks like in this context,

David: [00:44:24] And, that's so important because what the negative side of it is, if you think the absolute certainty is what requires is what is required to be a follower of Jesus, then invariably, what happens is if you don't feel absolute certainty, you feeling is should I just walk away from following Jesus and John, this is a theme.

Like if I could even just whistle-stop tour for a moment. Right. But what we see here.

and what you're just saying, that's okay if you don't believe Cause I do, thomas, right. Let's go to Thomas as a classic example. Well, I'm not sure I'm going to believe in Jesus unless I see his hands and his sight and Jesus turns up and says, that's okay, Thomas, here's my hands.

Here's my site. Right? the fact that you believe, or don't believe it, I'm still here. So, so, so. Belief or lack of

belief doesn't change the reality. In, in Matthew, I think about this. I wonder how many of our listeners have, have ever noticed this, the great commission. the end of Matthew's gospel? It says in verse 17 of Matthew, 28 they're all headed up and they go to see Jesus for the last time.

It says, when they saw him, they worshiped him and some English translations do this, this strange thing where they then say, but some were doubtful, but Looking at the Greek

it's really, it's really interesting because it, the Greek to me seems to read and seeing him, they worshiped and the doubted. So, but regardless

of how you read this, this is the resurrected Jesus and the worship also contains doubt. okay.

So they didn't worship and were absolutely certain that he was the Messiah. And was raised from the dead, even then they were doubtful. And then, in my, to end my whistle, stop tour, John favorite, favorite passage for you and me. So cruel of me to bring it up as a throwaway comment, but the road to a mace, the road to a mace, Like I love the fact and I, and I hope that

we hear this.

Jesus meets these two disciples. they are walking away from Jerusalem. They are giving up.

they say to Jesus, We had.

hoped. That he was going to be the one, like we had hoped not. We are hoping we had hoped we've given up on that belief and Jesus, I love this, John. I've got to be careful. You don't turn into a preacher for a second, but I love this, that Jesus, the son of God hears somebody say to them. yeah, we thought it was Jesus, but we don't think it's Jesus.

and Jesus says. Well, let's walk and talk about that. And then they continue walking in the wrong direction so they continue a way towards their giving up. as Jesus talks to them about himself, and then of course the beautiful line is Once they figure it out, they turn around and run back.

But Jesus, the son of God lives with

them in their doubt, and, and so when you tie all these stories, they're worshiping and doubting Thomas

is doubting you get why this father going? Well, I believe, but help my unbelief. Jesus is okay with that. She is absolutely okay with that. So like please, I would say I have turned into a preacher. No, but I can't escape me being a pastor. Just please don't give up on Jesus because you're uncertain, definitely fee. That would be one of the big takeaways from this passage. 

John: [00:47:40] Come on for sure. Absolutely. And we tend to read back into those gospels and think these guys had it all together and it was all like, dead easy and, and the gospel writers are working very hard to show us. No, no dots are still not connecting. They're still not getting it. They're asking the wrong questions.

They're, they're moving in the wrong direction. We, you, you and I, I mean, we must, we must do a series sometime on Luke 24 and me and you together. But, but, but like, a seven mile walk in the wrong direction. I mean, that's, that's how committed Jesus is to is in our uncertainty. And the vivid ever, there was a did show.

He's not only interested in us when we're certain actually he's profoundly interested in us when we're not certain. And he's prepared to walk seven miles in the wrong direction with us to turn that idea around. I should know that is mind blowing to me. It's it's magnificent. And doesn't it again, it ticks be careful here that we're not being heard to say what we're not saying, but it takes the pressure off of me.

It takes the pressure off us. Yes. I have a responsibility to believe and follow, of course, of course. But even in the moments when I the less he is fifth full and I love that and I, I, for sure, I am only here because he has returned. Relentlessly fearful bone ending in loving-kindness and fearfulness.

The confession says, oh my goodness, it's gorgeous, David. And I think, I think that's here. I think there's beautiful compassion within this. Jesus acknowledges the man's struggle and then just moves on. Does it make a point that that doesn't embarrass him? Doesn't stop to have a sermon, right? We need to get that squared up before we can sort this boy.

It just goes well. Okay. I get it. Let, let me sort it out now. I'll go and fix this. And I love that. I love that.

David: [00:49:38] there's a beautiful quote. From Michael Gerson, who's a columnist for the Washington post USA newspaper. And I, I have this written down in several places cause I just love the words of it. This is what Garson says. He says faith, thankfully does not preclude doubt. It consists instead of staking your life on the rumor of grace. And then he continues. Is that so good? Isn't it. 

John: [00:50:09] Oh, yeah. Repeat that. Repeat that late. Sticking your life on the 

rumor of Greece 

David: [00:50:13] faith, thankfully does not preclude doubt. It consists instead of staking your life on the rumor of grace. 

And then he says this, he says, there is this difference for a Christian believer At the end of all of our striving, and longing, we find not a force but a face all language about God.

is metaphorical, but the metaphor became flesh and dwelt amongst us. 

John: [00:50:44] Wow. Oh, that's too good. Sometimes. Sometimes you hear a piece of writing. You think? Why didn't I write that? That's too good. Oh, that is gorgeous. 

Oh. 

David: [00:50:56] And why I love that passage here because This this father has staked his life on the rumor of grace. I've heard about this. Jesus and so I'm bringing my son here. It's all I've got It's all I've got , and therefore,

if you can do something, then, then please help us. It's it's, it's, it's just beautiful is 

John: [00:51:16] it is, it is beautiful. It is beautiful. And I, and we get this sort of. To, to try and track back. I think from where we started from, we, we, we lend into this idea that, that Jesus comes down over the moon and there's a, there's a seems to be a messianic trajectory here. So at one level we've got a human story.

Dad, son, goodness, fifth struggled belief all going on, which, but then of course there is a macro journey. Isn't there, there's a, there's a messianic, something or other going on here. And I tell you what caught my attention debit. Like never before in my, my reflections just on, on this one was when the disciples, Jesus exercises, the demon and sets the boy free.

It's just incredible. And, and looks like he's dead, but he's not. And it's all wonderful. And then they go doors. I love that they go indoors and have this chat and the disciples go, why couldn't we deliver it? And what struck me, like never before on my record, do you know how things Springer? Don't you? And I'm like, oh, hold on.

He says, Jesus says this caned can only come out by prayer. Now here's where my eyes have always gone on that. David, I've always gone to prayer and fasting because some translations have this cane comes up. So he hears. So that's come back to our conversation. Here's rival was gone with this. I've always gone.

Okay. What do I need to do to get that demon? That, okay. I need to pray more and I need to fast more. 

David: [00:52:56] Okay. 

John: [00:52:56] Right. And I have up until, well, reflecting on this story this very week for this recording, I have never thought about this cane. 

David: [00:53:08] Hmm. 

John: [00:53:09] caned. Right. And I think maybe it's our conversations have got my brain buzzing on that.

And I'm it's all in the background in my head and I'm good. This kind messianic trajectory. What does that mean? And, and the, the sort of idea that the extra cysts of the day are, this is well worn documentation. The exercise of the day would often seek to know the name of the demon in order to speak to that demon and with a higher name juror that demon to leave.

The problem, of course we have here is that this demon is robbing the boy of speech. So what do you do when you've got a demon? The human, the human host can't speak. You can't use the normal practices. I think that's what the disciples and the teachers of the law are arguing about. I think they're arguing about the best way to get this demon out of this boy, because the normal processes aren't working and if, if the demon has robbed the human of speech, then, then we've got a problem in steps.

Jesus. And even though we've seen Jesus use these techniques in mark five, where he speaks and the demon speaks back to, what is your name? We are Legion for, we are Manny. This idea here, the demon can't speak, or at least won't speak. And Jesus still gets this demon out. And I think, I think that's what lends into that.

Messianic idea that the Messiah is the one who has the authority to even speak into a situation that won't reply, won't speak back and, and bring authority to this particular woman. Does that make sense? In terms of this cane, this cane, do you know? It's, that's what grabbed me here? 

David: [00:55:12] Yeah,

I think that it's interesting. I've not, I've not drawn that connection between the discussion at the front and the, the discussion at the end that there's some sort of analysis going on here in that terms of, of what I had noticed. jesus is engagement with this. Demon is different because it can't speak. So it.

is interesting as to how you then read this as a so Let me ask you

some, ask you, are you saying then that the Jesus is not providing a sort of general rule of thumb here? He's saying actually we've got a demon here who can't talk.

So therefore prayer is the only thing we can do. Is that kind of what you you're resonating with? Yes. 

John: [00:55:54] Well, partly in that, but also the fact that there is an authority calming to this situation that doesn't require the normal conversation to have this demon exercise. Okay. Who are you? Okay. Here's who I am. Here's where I'm coming in. There are four, you have to go, but actually Jesus is able to bypass that.

And by exercising the person without the demon speaking, he demonstrates this sort of authority. It's the same sort of thing we've seen in Matthew 12. Where the, the reaction of the crowd when they see the man, again, who's robbed of speech who's who, who gets delivered that it says, and all the multitudes were amazed and said, can this be the son of David at night?

Why that reaction when they've seen other people set free from demons? Could it be the reaction is because there's an authority here being expressed, which is nothing to do with NIMS or conversation it is to do with who is standing before them and the authority that he has. I'm, I'm under for an a sense, in a sense we're Jesus has given instructions to the disciples that that actually, this is not a bait kind of say this carefully, it's not a.

Even third or fifth and the situation, it is about his name in this situation. That is the ultimate authority to get this demon out, that Jesus commands and speaks. I'm not sure if I'm being clear there, but I think there's a, if we're following the sort of messianic link, there seems to be something linking the fact that Jesus can do this without this conversation.

And that's the stuff that hasn't been seen so much if at all in the world of Jesus. 

David: [00:57:50] Yeah. . I mean it's complex and I appreciate you trying to navigate it and help us see what's what's going on there,

Jesus is, is reframing exorcism then slightly he's he's saying, well, actually we're not going to do this as a kind of negotiation with with this demon.

We actually are going to live in the authority that comes. by. I'm I'm filling in some blanks here, but given the, the format of the story so far, it's almost as if just saying we don't need to do the talking back and forth a number one,

sorry, we can't. Number two. We don't actually need to, because once we put our trust in Jesus or realize that Jesus is the one who can sort this out, which is what prayer is. doing, Prayer is putting your faith.

You know when you, when you go to God and say, Hey, please help me. with this. That's a faith move. And I think sometimes We forget that.

about prayer. Don't we think about it. You are sat in your room by yourself talking to yourself right now. If you don't believe in God, that's what's happening When a person's praying, if you, if you go into a prayer meeting and don't believe in God, it's a lot of people talking to themselves in an empty room. how do we know That's not the case? Well, here's the thing we don't, that's where faith comes in, There's you, when you pray, even if It's a simple prayer over your food or whatever it is.

you are acting in faith to believe that Someone's listening.

that someone's hearing that someone can do something about this.

So, so there's that sense. Now tie that into the story. That's Exactly.

what we've seen happen in this story. Isn't it? Yeah. And, and I think you're right to point out and I know you just made it as a quick reference that certain older translations of the Bible often put prayer and fasting, at this point, but the sort of early manuscripts don't have that word fasting in there.

So if you, if you dig up some of the earliest, somewhere along the line in church tradition, this word has got inserted into some of the, the later manuscripts.

And then I think the king James Bible kept it in its translation. And that was how we got it in. Now, one of the reasons? It's a later addition is Not only do all the earlier versions, not have it, but the other

significant thing is of course there isn't any fasting in this story.

So it would be strange for Jesus to say, all this comes out through prayer and fasting because there hasn't been any there hasn't been any fasting, but the thing that interests me is there's almost a level of fencing. So agreeing with what you're absolutely saying that this is coming. through The trust and the authority of Jesus.

The question is where is the prayer?

in the story? And I love the fact that all the only Prayer I can see it. I believe help my unbelief. this th th So now think about that, that. this, This conversation from the father that looks to us like a complete failure, if you've been, if you've been brought up

within certain Christian traditions, it's exactly not the thing you should say to Jesus might that honesty and that transparency and that surrender of control actually be the prayer of faith.

Jesus, I actually don't know if I have enough belief for this, but because he's found his way to the one with the authority, then that prayer, has activated the holes or his story. I, I don't know if That adds to what you're saying, John, but I kind of love that, that 

John: [01:01:11] Oh, it's no, it's lovely. And it, and it's all in the mix, isn't it? It's, it's, it's the, there's a beautiful mix of human desperation in the middle of this. And the pure, can I say this without sown and perverse, the purity of that human desperation, which touches the heart of Jesus.

And there's this side lane of argument that's going on because there's a perplexity is the way they haven't been able to exercise this boy, perhaps a ner arguing among themselves. And Jesus has to bypass the argument, get to the purity of this expression, the brokenness of this man. And it brings something of the kingdom of God.

To that world. So I think there's so many things in the mix here. And again, if you're looking for formula, this is difficult, but if you're trying to capture the heart of humility and honesty and hunger that attracts the fierce of God, then this story really takes a number of those beautiful big boxes and invites God and his authority into the situation that can change everything.

And it's it's absolutely beautiful that beautiful. Indeed.

David: [01:02:24] And well, yeah, just one more one more thing. then that as we land, this phenomenal little facet to that, I just want to throw in is, is that so, so th the exorcism, happens 

John: [01:02:39] okay.

David: [01:02:39] And everybody is there, they see it, they see it happening. He convulses cries out and the demon comes out and then it says this the boy. was like a corpse, right?

, in fact, Most of them said he's dead. 

It's obviously an intense scene. That's just happened. He looks like a dead Everybody, around there says he is a dead buddy. something very bad.

has happened. And then it says verse 27, Jesus took him by the hand and lifted it up and he was able to stand.

Right. but what's,

interesting. There is the three words Graston by the hand and Lifted him up. and, and he stood. Those are The same three words that happen about gyrus he's daughter who was dead. Okay. So, so, so it's interesting that even Mark's language, gives away that, at some point, but then what's really interesting is that the word that when it says lifted him up. This word lifted him up. is actually, the Greek word a guiro, which is the same word that's used when the, when the young man in chapter 16 says, Jesus is

not here.

He has been raised, he has been a guy road. Right. So, so there's, there's definitely. Mark. Doesn't explicitly say the boy actually died and this is a resurrection, but you can't help. But think that Mark's readers reading this in Greek, they're drawing a connection, It's the same three words. grasped, raised and stood.

Same three words is with gyrus he's daughter. But then that throw forward to the fact that Jesus is going to be raised. You now see this little nuance in the story, leading us into resurrection, leading us into the hope of Jesus and what Jesus is doing for this boy is ultimately what's going to do for himself and, and everybody which I think is a beautiful little nuance that I don't want to miss. 

John: [01:04:32] Oh, so good. So good. And and I think it's a great place to conclude in terms of the last two episodes that we've looked at, the Jesus brings life into death. He brings peace into the chaos. He brings hope into the darkness. And in this context to use that beautiful motif brings that resurrection life into what was certainly destruction and death of this, this young man.

And, and, and ultimately that's what he came to do in terms of his Messiah ship. And that's what he calls his followers to be part of, to challenge a kingdom that would seek to destroy cripple ruin. lives and to establish a kingdom that is about bringing life and freedom to use the few beautiful expressions, to, to take people by the hand, to lift them up and to help them stand.

And that is the gospel, isn't it. And the gospel that Jesus said, the spirit of the Lord is upon me to proclaim and we see that over and over and over again. So beautiful, beautiful stuff, Lord, I believe help me help me in my unbelief.

David: [01:05:55] Okay, that's it for today. And as we said, at the start of this episode, we're going to take a small break for the rest of August. And release our second half of the miracle season. At the beginning of September,

we hope that you enjoy the break and are ready to join with us again when we return in September. But for now, please feel free to get in touch with either of us about something. We said, you know, you can reach out to us at podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the two techs podcast on Facebook, Instagram. 

Twitter and YouTube. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it. If you left a review on your podcast app or one of our social media sites, and if you really enjoyed this episode, then why don't you share it? With a friend. Don't forget, you can listen to all our previous episodes at twotexts.com or wherever you get your podcasts. But that is it for now. We'll be back in early September, but until then, 

Goodbye.