In which John and David consider half of the story of the healing of the man by the pool in John 5. A miracle story that draws us into conversations around texts, purpose, and understanding of Jesus in John's Gospel.
Episode Outline
Episode 32 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 15
If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagramand Twitter. We're also on YouTube where you can watch an unedited video version of this podcast. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?
Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021
In which John and David consider half of the story of the healing of the man by the pool in John 5. A miracle story that draws us into conversations around texts, purpose, and understanding of Jesus in John's Gospel.
Episode Outline
Episode 32 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 15
If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagramand Twitter. We're also on YouTube where you can watch an unedited video version of this podcast. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?
Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021
Transcript Auto-Generated by Descript.com
[00:00:00] Hi there. I'm David Harvey and I'm here with John Andrews and this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we are two friends in two different countries. Here every two weeks talking about two different texts from the Bible. This is our second season. It's about the miracles of Jesus. And this is episode 15.
[00:00:25] And it's called what's in a question.
[00:00:31] John: So David, we are back in John's gospel and I have to say I'm having a blast and John it's just magnificent. And last time we talked together, we were in John chapter four and thinking about this second sign incredible moment where, where Jesus heals the Royal official's son and that household comes to theater. Absolutely beautiful stuff. And what's beautiful about the episode that we're doing today is that we're rolling strip from four and the five. We rarely get the opportunity to do that.
[00:01:02] We're normally jumping around in the gospels. So it really feels like we've got a lovely connectedness here and we're going to hang around. This story, I think for two episodes, there's so much in this where we're looking at doing two episodes in John chapter five. So, so it's
[00:01:17] David: from, from two texts in one episode, we're now at half a text in one episode, and we'll probably do that for a little while. John, the next few miracles, I think we're going to jump into John nine and John 11, where we know We're going to have to slow down. and really zoom in on these miracles.
[00:01:33] So I hope everyone enjoys that.
[00:01:35] John: I hope so. And of course it, it plays into the hands of two Celtic men who loved talking. So, we're sorry about that folks. We just love talking. And when we're talking about Jesus, it's really, really hard for us to stop. So, so there we are. So, so David, it's over to you.
[00:01:48] Why don't you kick off with a fabulous reading from John chapter?
[00:01:52] David: Yes. Excellent. So I'm gonna read through
[00:01:54] to verse 18 from verse one. So it begins like this. Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for one of the Jewish festivals. Now there is in Jerusalem, near the sheep gate, a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonies.
[00:02:16] Here a great number of the Sables. People used to lie the blind, the lame, the paralyzed one who was there had been an invalid for 38 years when Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time?
[00:02:33] he asked him, do you want to get. Sir, the invalid replied. I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred while I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me. And then Jesus said to him, well, get up
[00:02:52] pick up your mat and walk at once the man was cured, he picked up his mat and walked the day on which this took place. What was the Sabbath. And so the Jewish leaders said to the man, who had been healed, it is the Sabbath, the law forbids you to carry
[00:03:11] your mat, but he replied the man who made me well said to me, pick up. your mat and walk.
[00:03:20] And So they asked him, well, who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk
[00:03:24] The man who was healed had no idea who it was for. Jesus? had slipped away into the crowd that was. later Jesus found him at the temple. and said, to him, see you are well again, stop sinning or something.
[00:03:39] worse may happen to you.
[00:03:41] So the man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus
[00:03:45] who had made him well. So because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him in his defense. Jesus said to them. My father is always at, his work to this very day and it. And working for this reason, they tried all the more to kill him. Not only was he.
[00:04:07] breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own father making himself equal with God. There we go. John,
[00:04:18] John: Come on,
[00:04:19] David: there's a
[00:04:20] John: bones, pick the bones out of that. Come on now. Wow. since it is sensational stuff, and of course we've, we've stopped at sort of oversee a team, but for our listeners, this rocks on right to the end, virtually of, of chapter five in terms of what then becomes. Fairly protracted argument, that it's one of the most profound moments where Jesus defends himself.
[00:04:42] Actually, it's a, it's a real well, it's, it's probably the most explicit defense of himself in the context of what he's doing, why he's doing it and who's behind what he's doing. And we get a little bit of a hint of that in a reading. So it's a, it's a controversy is about the kickoff.
[00:04:59] David: It's fascinating if you think about it in terms of this is the Jesus who at his trial for his death says nothing, but, but here he's going to offer a pretty robust defense of who he is and what he's doing. Isn't it. It's fantastic.
[00:05:18] John: Beautiful. And I love the way the the chapter is introduced to us after this sometime later I love this sort of, so we, we get clearly a gap between this beautiful miracle and chapter four, moving into chapter five. We're not sure exactly how long the gap is. We could sort of have some guesses there.
[00:05:37] But though there is a gap in the Johanna and thinking this sort of pattern is continuing. Jesus is carrying on these amazing moments of engaging and knowing engages in a miracle around a fairly interesting and even controversial setting in terms of where the man is and what the man is expecting to happen.
[00:05:58] In this place quite a, quite a paradoxical situation, because so some of our viewers who may have been following into reading, there are some versions of this, this chapter, or that include a verse that talks about the angel calming down and stirring up the water. And in fact, the man hints it. That doesn't mean when he says I've no one to carry me into the water sort of idea.
[00:06:20] So there's almost. There's a tension introduced to us at the beginning, and that you've got the sort of beautiful Niamh here Podesta which is from, is from the Hebrew idea of buy it a host and her said loving kindness. So this sort of the place is literally called the host of loving kindness, which has just a powerful idea.
[00:06:45] And those. Colony it's even point to numerics. They point to the idea of grace within that. So you've got this almost grease drenched imagery, and then you get this, this tension of. Almost too strong to say almost a superstition around what's happening here. The angel comes down. If, if you sort of, fill in the blanks of that, the waters stair in some way, and the.
[00:07:12] The man needs to get into the water. And it's interesting that Jesus makes no reference at all to the water in the context of this story, it's quite fascinating. He doesn't offer himself as the man who's going to carry this man in. He goes a completely different route. He completely ignores whatever the expectation is, whether that be a spiritual one or even a slightly superstitious one.
[00:07:34] So you get these beautiful tensions introduced us right at the beginning of that story there, David.
[00:07:39] David: Yeah, I mean, I think, do you think It's worth talking for a little bit, John, about these missing verses, just because, I'm imagining somebody saying, oh wait a minute.
[00:07:49] What you, what do you mean? Is this a jump in versus like the, the, the sharp reader? If you were actually looking at the text of John in the new international version. for example, or the new revised standard, You'll notice that you have, Well, if I was to say, Hey. just turn in your Bibles to John chapter five, verse four, If you've got a translation of the Bible. from the last 20 or 30 years, you'll immediately go wait a minute.
[00:08:14] There is no verse four. It just goes straight from three to five. Doesn't it. and then invariably, what you'll have next,
[00:08:21] to it is a footnote.
[00:08:22] There'll be a little footnote at the end of verse three. And it will say something in your footnote. Like some manuscripts include here, the following text, and then you get a few more words. of verse three and then a whole verse four. We're unpacked this, this.
[00:08:36] idea that, this angel, the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. So understanding this, John is. Is really diving into a field of new Testament studies. Well, Biblical studies, known as textual criticism. where I
[00:08:53] think most of us would probably realize that there's not well, there is actually, there's plenty of full manuscripts of the new Testament.
[00:09:02] John: there.
[00:09:02] David: But as you get closer and closer to the time of reading, you start finding fragments and PCs and like you know, collections of books and collections of letters until you get right The way back the earliest? surviving piece of the new Testament is it is a little tiny scrap of John's gospel that somebody found. About a hundred or so years ago now. And that probably doesn't surprise the average person that these texts were written and copies were made of them. They were distributed the perished fell apart over time got lost, But then new copies were made and then people start compiling them together. All of this happened quite quickly. In, in new Testament history. But What that means, of course, And this, I mean
[00:09:44] and you can read about this online to your heart's content. what that means? Of course
[00:09:48] is there's more and more manuscripts out there that have
[00:09:52] John: have
[00:09:53] David: ever so slight variances in them from time to time.
[00:09:57] And the Job of people that are in textual criticism is to try and figure out from all of the.
[00:10:04] evidence in the thousands and thousands of manuscripts there. And pieces of manuscripts are out there is to try and figure out what the most original text is. I mean, is that a clear way to explain it? Very brief what, what these scholars are doing,
[00:10:18] John: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's to help, maybe some of our listeners sort of are really aware of this conversation. Some may be slightly alarmed. There's a bit missing, or how do you explain that? But I think that's a very, very clear explanation. And of course we are, we're being helped by more and more research that's on earth in some stuff, all.
[00:10:39] I think an approach that is both committed to the text in its authenticity, but also aware that there, there are different fragments out there that need to be almost Either slotted in, or if they're not to be slotted in, then, then they're to be understood. Okay. Some version say this. And so some of our readers will, will note it in their Bible.
[00:11:01] It'll say something like the oldest manuscripts are the most reliable manuscript. Don't have this. And therefore, it's a little question, mark, but this may not have been in some of the very original ratings. So it's a very honest way of saying, I think in different translations, there's a little question mark here.
[00:11:20] It's nothing to worry about in the sense that it doesn't fundamentally change the trajectory of the story, but But at least in our honesty, they're making us aware that there's a little question mark, around what may have been verse four. So that does
[00:11:33] David: So if, if your translation of the Bible. so, I mean, let me just add a slightly, a little bit more color here to this. Cause I do for me and you, John.
[00:11:43] There's always this thing
[00:11:44] that we want the biblical reader to be confident in the translation that's in front of them. So if you're picking up.
[00:11:50] a NIV or.
[00:11:52] New revised standard version. There, You can be confident, that this is a good translation of the Bible, right? but what what used to happen was there was a translation. theory out there which was, well, you Just use the most complete manuscript that you have access to. That's what happened with the king James.
[00:12:09] So if You pick up a copy of the king James Bible, You'll find that tail end, of verse three and verse four in this particular text, I actually side note, this is a little footnote. of my own here. This isn't something. that should cause somebody any concern because the vast,
[00:12:24] majority of manuscript variances are, are very, very minor. grammatical or sentence structure issues. there's there's very few.
[00:12:33] of them create anything of a theological. Right. So so, so back to the main tech. So on one hand, you've got, should we translate from the most complete manuscript? The other option is, should we translate from a sort of eclectic version of what we
[00:12:47] think represents the earliest texts that we have and most, or All of the modern translations go with this that theory of let's go to the earliest.
[00:12:58] John: So
[00:12:58] David: when they get all of the earliest manuscripts and you can find this stuff, out, if you want really want to, you can even find out the names of the manuscripts they're using. The earliest manuscripts jumped straight from halfway through verse three to what is the beginning of our verse five. And it's only later several hundred years. later that you start to get texts with this kind of angel in the waters type question.
[00:13:23] Now Here's my take on that really quickly to, to. This is just my theory, right? But this is, this is a kind of
[00:13:29] theory, which a lot of scholars would sort of buy into. By the time you get to verse seven, the man alludes to the fact that some thing, something happens in this water right now, my suspicion is for the
[00:13:42] earliest readers, they actually understood this. So John doesn't include, an explanation of what that means because everybody knows that. Oh yeah, that's that bit where Superstition or urban myth or some theology that some somebody gets healed if the angel stirs the Watchers. So then maybe several years later, longer into the process people are starting to be a little unclear. What does that even mean? So, So some scholars think that probably what happens is some scribe. who's writing a new copy. Who's Making sure what we're doing.
[00:14:13] A second copy of this John's gospel was sent to a new church somewhere. Some scribe writes in the margins of the, of the scroll. Oh, by the way, this is in reference to any basically writes, Hey, from time to time, an angel, the Lord comes down the stairs up the Watchers.
[00:14:29] The first one in.
[00:14:30] would be cured of whatever disease. And so that goes to the little scribal notes on the site of the paper of a, so that when this new church get this? They can make a little bit more. sense of this story. And then somewhere over time in another copy again is made that little site kind of gets included.
[00:14:46] in the main text. And so we go on. So I think what we do in the NIV is really helpful because I think what you've got is probably in the main text is the authentic text. And know what you've got as a footnote is some scribble note, probably
[00:15:02] from the third century of a scribe, trying to help The reader I can make sense of what others without that is a slightly unusual story. And we'd have to sort of fill in the blanks. So I think it's helpful for somebody to say we're not discrediting scripture the NIV, is not trying to mess with scripture is trying to give you an insight into, Hey, this is the most accurate translation based on the text we have. Hopefully What we hear in that is don't stress. Some people, I think it could, if they don't quite get what's going on with. textual criticism, It could be like, oh, well, Oh, are we just picking and choosing what verses from the Bible we want? And that's, that's really not what's happening here.
[00:15:44] Does that work?
[00:15:45] John: Oh, totally works. I'm sure that would be really helpful for people. And as you say if people really want to hunt that dine, there's a lot of stuff out there that they can connect with on that. But it's one of those elephants in the room. We probably can't ignore. Cause some of our viewers may have been following us in a version of the Bible that has that versus.
[00:16:05] David just missed the verse what's going on
[00:16:08] there. Um, and so that just gives a wee bit of an explanation, but, but what's a wonderful thing. It doesn't essentially change the core, the heart, the trajectory, the meaning on the actual events of this story. It it's simply. Worst. We are left with it a little bit of a context.
[00:16:26] What, so what is this staring? And of course we're helped to know that. But even if we didn't have that, if that wasn't included, there's still something powerful and profound going on here. So, so we've got this gorgeous moment being created in a host of loving kindness. We're, we're Jesus steps into this and he, he sees this man.
[00:16:48] David: And do you make a really good point, John, one of the reasons why it's not,
[00:16:52] actually important to know what's the myth or the idea around the water being stirred is, is, is you said, and this is actually the most beautiful point.
[00:17:03] Jesus. Isn't interested in it.
[00:17:05] Just like the man starts going. Wow. There's a, there's no one to help me down. And what happens to the water stirred by the time I get there, somebody else has gotten in and Jesus just goes like, Whatever. dude
[00:17:16] John: Let's move on. Let's move on. Absolutely.
[00:17:19] David: Well, and what's funny about it, John, and get this Given where the conversation's going to go.
[00:17:24] the conversation is going to go into a conversation of Jesus being God.
[00:17:27] It's like, you got very, and John loves his irony, but you've got this real irony that here. Create your God. in the flesh is talking to this man.
[00:17:39] Does he want to be well, and the man is literally having a conversation with Jesus.
[00:17:43] about whether Jesus is fast enough to pick him up and throw him in the water and type like, and what a lesson to us that sometimes we can absolutely miss the point.
[00:17:54] We can
[00:17:54] John: Of course.
[00:17:55] David: what God's that God's with us.
[00:17:58] And we're kind of focusing on this small fry. So,
[00:18:01] John: And, and it is, it is, it is interesting. Whatever was going on here at this house of loving, kindness, whatever, whatever the thing was that this man was anticipating Jesus completely sidesteps it. And and I think that is very, very powerful. I think, I think, I think it's deliberate from John.
[00:18:21] I think we get this gorgeous. Clash of two things. The man is hopeful, I suppose, a little bit like the man that get beautiful and X three, looking towards Peter and John is looking for a few, a few pennies or a few shackles to help him out. And Peter goes, actually, I don't have any of that, but what I have, I give you, and I think you've got the same sort of scenario.
[00:18:43] Here's the. The only way he believes he's going to get any sort of wholeness is get in that water, whoever stirring it whenever they're stirring it. And Jesus is diverting him completely away from this. Spiritual reality or slash Superstation. He's, he's just completely ignoring it and bringing him to truth.
[00:19:05] And of course I, there is a sort of a deeper subtext there for as us know that that is humans. We are a little bit prone. If we're not careful to making SU even superstitions of our spirituality and those superstations please forgive me, viewers, our listeners, if that a fans, but some of those superstations can start to eclipse the truth in which actually Jesus wants to manifest then.
[00:19:31] And I love that sort of jarring juxtaposition that's going on in this passage that we see immediately within that.
[00:19:39] David: yeah,
[00:19:39] John: so, so there's, there's a, there's an amazing moment here. I'd love to reflect with you on it's sort of glorious and troublesome in some ways. Verse three here, a great number. Of disabled people used to lie. And then in verse six, it says when Jesus saw him laying there.
[00:20:06] So there is a little tension here being created where you're going. Okay. Is Jesus seeing him? While all the others are lying there, or maybe he's lying on his own, the implication within the seems to be that he's lying there with others, but Jesus sees him. And there's another little sort of sense in this And having learned or unlearned that had been there 38 years.
[00:20:33] And the implication of that learning may be that this was a well-known figure and therefore Jesus had picked up the information, but also there might be a sense in which Jesus knew some information here by the power of the spirit and the same way he seems to know the woman that the Well's story and the same way he knew Nathaniel's.
[00:20:54] Earlier on in John's gospel, John chapter one, he's got that knowing of Nathaniel and the knowing of the woman at the well in John chapter four, does he know here because he's been helped by the spirit of God in the context of this and, and his, his knowing of the man, what he knows about demand or what he has been informed of about the man by perhaps the father, the spirit of God is that.
[00:21:23] Influencing his scene. And, and there's a, there's a gorgeous combination that he saw and learned on jet, of course there's a whole bunch of other people in that arena. And Jesus seems to in a troublesome way, seems to ignore everybody else and just go to this one. Any, reflections on that?
[00:21:44] Cause it's, again, it's, it's we can sort of say step in and ignore it, but, but it's there, there's a tension there that, and it throws up this idea, this tension that we see in Jesus, that we celebrate the places he went, but there's also real evidence. There's a whole bunch of places. He didn't go, there's, there's some people he engages with and other people he doesn't engage with under his, a little tense.
[00:22:08] Within that, and there seems to be a little tension within the story. Any, any reflections or thoughts on, on that from your end?
[00:22:15] David: Yeah, So a couple of things are worth pointing out. If you're reading this in the.
[00:22:20] new international version, they translate this. And when Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he'd been in this condition, so what happened. With that reading. I think you kind of assume somebody else, if you, if you construct this image in your head, you kind of assume somebody they're going to yeah.
[00:22:36] He's been here 38 years, but the other translations. I think do a slightly better job of
[00:22:43] of referencing the Greek here, which is you say John, that Jesus knew. So John doesn't, so, so just to help you track what we're talking about here, if you're reading in the NIV, you might go, well, that's kind of easy.
[00:22:55] He just, he. He learned it from somebody, but, but John seems to want to give you this impression, in the Greek, that, who did he learn it from?
[00:23:04] John: from?
[00:23:05] David: Where did Jesus learn anything from? He learns it from the father, right? So, That's quite interesting. Two things? I think. are really interesting. Number one, the only way for me to make sense of,
[00:23:15] Jesus's healing ministry is to realize and assume that he doesn't heal everybody.
[00:23:21] Right. I know don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that he tries and fails. Each that he clearly doesn't know. He'll everybody. And this requires us, I think, to realize that Jesus, when he comes to his ministry time, it requires us, I think to think about what
[00:23:39] is his miraculous ministry about.
[00:23:43] And we've alluded to this at various points throughout this, this miracle series. we build an idea, oh, Jesus came to heal everybody. Then you end up, this becomes a highly problematic text for us. Why does Jesus walk into the midst of a lot of ill people And go ha you there, you'll do nobody else. But I I'm tempted to think that even within
[00:24:05] Five. If you were to read the whole chapter, you'd start to see answers to this question. That Jesus is being driven by an intentionality of his ministry that is pointing the reader, but then those present Towards particular things, why is he doing this? And so you get This format
[00:24:25] in that starts to develop.
[00:24:27] You've spotted it here in John five. No, we're not going to talk about,
[00:24:31] John six in this series because John six is about the feeding of the 5,000, the walking on water,
[00:24:37] And we've talked about that miracle elsewhere in the series, but note is the same format there as well, There's miracle and then extended discussion and the extended discussions in variably point out What was actually going on,
[00:24:50] in the miracle and the mirror.
[00:24:51] So the feeding, the 5,000 wasn't simply about. These people are hungry and they need something to eat. Now we don't want to dismiss that, but Utilizes that miracle to point towards what he's doing in his ministry. So I noticed later on in John chapter five, we get the we get the healing of, the man, but then Jesus. starts to Talk about or what you see the father.
[00:25:13] doing is.
[00:25:14] I'm going to do. And then he starts to talk about, verse 21, Just as the father raises The dead and gives them life. So also the son gives life to whomever ever he wishes. Right. And so, so you get this Sense that this man,
[00:25:29] rising from his. And again, English translation.
[00:25:33] get up, pick up your mat, Greek wood, wood, the word that's used, get up as a perfectly good translation, but the worst. the word is, raised.
[00:25:42] Right? So, so this story is actually a resurrection story, right? So, so if this story. is a big neon arrow saying to the reader of John's gospel.
[00:25:55] And the observer. of the actual story. This is pointing to something else it's pointing to this new creation journey that we're on in John's gospel. It's not, it's not a resurrection because that's still to come, but it's getting there.
[00:26:10] And of course, if you track through John's seven signs, eventually you're going to end up with Lazarus, an actual resurrection, which is still pointing you across the Jesus. He's resurrect.
[00:26:21] John: Yes,
[00:26:22] David: I know that might not satisfy everybody, is an answer, but for me, that's how I
[00:26:27] deal with that tension. John is that Jesus didn't come just to heal everybody.
[00:26:31] He came as the Messiah.
[00:26:33] to save the world. So, so you have. Then look at the miracles are Working for a particular trajectory. not just simply. Jesus came to town and everybody, cut up their insurance cards.
[00:26:47] John: Yes. Yes. And, and
[00:26:49] David: don't know. I mean, does that resonate with you?
[00:26:50] John: oh, it's very good. Very helpful for everybody. Again, it's it's trying to perhaps understand what John is also trying to do here. Isn't it? So, so, so John is highlighting the actions of Jesus, which seem on the surface of it discriminatory, but actually their inquiry incredibly intentional and laser pointed.
[00:27:13] David: Yes.
[00:27:13] John: Jesus is doing something here specifically because it's leaning into other things and it does, it does help us, especially maybe those from our charismatic or Pentecostal traditional background, who would sort of, embrace the idea that Jesus was here to heal everybody. And of course there's a sense, there's a sense in which we embrace the spirit of that, but these stories.
[00:27:38] If you're embracing that as an idea, then these stories have to be understood that there's something else going on. This isn't Jesus acting out of character. This isn't Jesus being discriminatory against the other sick people in that arena. It is Jesus. Working with the father for a specific goal and a specific end to.
[00:27:58] Something that is bigger even than the healing that is going on here. And I, and we start to see that pattern, I think, throughout the gospel of John. So it does help us. Jesus. And learned or having seen and having learned, I like that sort of implication, it, it feels to me from reading the text in the Greek, that, that actually you get a sense of, he, he turned up already knowing something, he there's a sense in which is knowing is already present and maybe, and maybe that in some ways, determines what he sees.
[00:28:37] And, and it's a low the order chronologically as he saw. And he learned sort of thing. It's I, it could be that those two things are, are working together. If, if we become aware, then it, it changes the way we see. If, if, if we are aware that there is someone there like this man, then we are seeing him, we are looking out for him specifically, and it feels a little bit like.
[00:29:02] Jesus is doing here within that, and that fits really well in the of John's gospel. I think
[00:29:08] David: If people would just scroll back to John chapter two in the end of John chapter two There's a fascinating little comment, which also leads to just one of the beautiful little piece of Johanna and irony as well, which I can't help, but mention, but let's go to the comment first verse 23 of John chapter two. now while he that's, Jesus was in Jerusalem at the Passover festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his. But now look at verse 24, but Jesus would not. and the word is in trust. There a translate. It's a good, but just again. No, that's the word and pistol, which is belief. Right.
[00:29:47] So believe, trust and trust. So, but Jesus would not interest himself to them. because he knew. All right. And again, the translation here, all people, but but at some level
[00:30:02] John: of
[00:30:02] David: It's Jesus just knows everything and therefore he does not need, he did not.
[00:30:07] need any testimony about mankind for, he knew what was in each.
[00:30:14] John: Yeah.
[00:30:15] David: Or in each And through. passage human. Right. So so this in, in Greek, this actually originally quite well, because it says he did not need any testimony about,
[00:30:25] humans because he knew what was in each human.
[00:30:29] Right. And now the brilliant. Little piece that I, that I've got to point. out is that your Bible. Then stop.
[00:30:36] And th there's a little heading that says Jesus and Nicodemus, and then chapter three starts. So You don't come back. to that till tomorrow, but there's a brilliant Way John connects. It is just so much fun. it's not really helpful to our point today, but, but somebody is going to, really appreciate this.
[00:30:49] The next time they read this, it says Jesus would not entrust himself to them. because he? knew. All right. In fact he did not.
[00:30:58] need any witness. The word is witness there. He did not need any
[00:31:02] witness about humans because he knew what was in humans. Now there was a human from the Pharisees named Nicodemus, and that's how John intros it's brilliant.
[00:31:14] The way it happens to You Almost you meet nicotine and you're instantly suspicious
[00:31:18] because Jesus is telling him. this to me, though, to the point that I actually want to make is John has set you up from.
[00:31:26] verse two to know, by the way, the Jesus knows everything And he knows what's going on in people's hearts So if you've been reading John from start to finish when you get here, When Jesus saw him lying there and
[00:31:39] knew he'd been in this condition for a long time. I think you, as the reader of John's gospel are not overly perturbed by that. Because from start to finish, you've been told Jesus just knows everything.
[00:31:52] He knows what's going on.
[00:31:53] in people's heart. And you're going to see that theme appear Time and again, so he knew about Nicodemus. he knows about this man situation. And and, and so
[00:32:02] you know, He's going to know about the plans of the Pharisees. He knows what pilot's all about. He knows what Peter's all about. This is, this. is the Jesus that you meet in John's gospel
[00:32:14] John: Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And there is a gorgeous trajectory in the knowing of Nathaniel in chapter one, and a sense that two into three. Knowing of Nicodemus the knowing of the woman at the well, and knowing he knew something about the guy at the pool, it's just a gorgeous, beautiful series of magnificently constructed bread crumbs from John the radar.
[00:32:39] It's just, and again, it doesn't lean back into, we say this over and over again, and I will never tire of saying this, that just these guys are not just stringing together, random stories and thought, oh, that's through, down in that. These, these are brilliantly constructed ideas that are about connecting thought from one fears of the gospel to the next
[00:33:00] David: so also, John, what then becomes really interesting. is if What you're and are seeing is correct. And I think most people if you just read the We'll see that's exactly what's going on That is, that makes this whole sentence that we're reading John chapter five, verse six. Really interesting, because what Jesus appears to now see next clearly is not what he's saying.
[00:33:25] Right? So let me just read the text case. People forgot it. When Jesus saw him laying there and knew that he had been in this condition for a long time.
[00:33:33] he asked him, do you want to get. Now, just think about that for a second, because everything that we've just said is for the last four chapters we've been telling you that what John's been saying is Jesus knows everything. So so that question now becomes really interesting, doesn't it? This is not a question of Jesus saying, I wonder if the man wants to get well, is it.
[00:33:55] John: No, it's, it's fabulous. And of course, we, we are introduced to the question asking God from the very beginning of the biblical text, I actually, the first recorded recorded conversation.
[00:34:08] We know there's others gone on, but the first recorded conversation between God and the man and the woman is where. It is a question. Now it is inconceivable from our theological position to believe that God didn't know where they were and didn't know what they had done. So he's not asking the question for his.
[00:34:29] There's a whole other reason for asking it. And of course it is fascinating for our listeners to reflect on the idea that, that, Jesus seems to ask in the gospels somewhere in the region of 307 questions, and he's asking questions all the time. And of course, some of those questions are in a sort of rabbinic context, which is totally undersold.
[00:34:53] Other questions are sort of. Genre, what seems pretty obvious? Well, of course I want to get well to, to the man blamed, Bartimaeus w what do you want, what is it you actually want from me? So there are all sorts of questions that he's asking, because it's leaning in to the response of the person and also knowing what the person wants and knowing how this person is going to respond to him.
[00:35:17] So it is a gorgeous paradoxical moment in the. The one who knew now ask the question is if he doesn't know, because he wants to know what the man knows. He wants to know what the man wants. It's beautiful. And doesn't it throw up again, the tension that we manage constantly between the sort of, kind of say this language, the sovereignty of God, the old powerfulness of the Lord, the ability of the Lord, and also this intersect with our human.
[00:35:48] Freedom responsibility, intellect. There's a sense, there's a sense, theoretically, in this miracle that the man had have turned around and said, well, I'm just looking for someone to throw me in. Okay. I, I'm not being specific, well, actually I do want to get, well, I, I, I do want this. And of course that's, in some ways how the man answers, she says, sir, I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred while I'm trying to get in, someone else gets down ahead of me.
[00:36:19] So what's really fast. Yeah. Is it in some ways the man sort of doesn't answer the question he reverts back to well, if someone could, could carry me down into the water, that would be Brill. So it's not interesting that, that, again, it's you've got the all-knowing God asking a question. You've got the man not really answering the question and yet Jesus steel still sort of.
[00:36:44] Managers to, to help with this. There's a lot of, a lot of sort of intersection and crossover going on here.
[00:36:50] David: And goodness me, isn't that All of our lives that sometimes God asks us a simple question.
[00:36:56] and we make it remarkably complex and, , and miss what we're, what we could, so easily serve it, engage with.
[00:37:04] it. And that, that sense of what's in a question, you realize that. On a surface level.
[00:37:09] Jesus is saying, well, Hey, what do you want? And I think the agency that Jesus gives to people with disabilities is phenomenal in the gospels.
[00:37:17] If, if God creator in flesh.
[00:37:19] that's what John's telling us, who knows all can look at. But what do you want? I mean, the person who, that we've said this before in this series, but it's so important to me that the person who'd that Jesus applies that you are a person who can decide what you want.
[00:37:35] And I think that allows the man,
[00:37:37] to make his own country. That, that I actually do want to be healed. It's just, I don't have the mechanisms and I don't have the help. And, and I don't have an, all of these things, He's confessing. what he lacks is, are things that Jesus can completely bypass and, but give him what he actually wants.
[00:37:57] I think it's a beautiful little insight into Jesus's ministry.
[00:38:00] John: so good. So good. And of course he is answering in the context of the world that he knows. So this is the only model he's seen where people have. Healed or, or made whole in some way. So this is the only terms of referencing Haas. Well, you know what you want. Well, and he explains then I need to get into the water, but I can't.
[00:38:22] And yet in, in the compassion and grace and goodness of. He's able to interpret that and an understanding of that. So Jesus doesn't then take them on and criticize his view on what is or isn't going on in the water. He just understands this. This is all this man knows that this.
[00:38:40] David: Yes.
[00:38:41] John: Is desperate to be.
[00:38:42] Well, the fact he's hung around here for 38 years shows a measure of his complete desperation. But he expresses his desperation in his own framework of understanding. And Jesus is able to sort of step into that framework and, and do that. But I, I do love, I do love this about Jesus, that he doesn't.
[00:39:02] He asked the question and maybe, maybe it would help us as followers of Jesus to, to ask more questions and make less assumptions. And, and maybe that would help us learn about people are unhappy, maybe create those wonderful opportunities to pray for people who, who said, well, I do want to be well or pray for people who, who actually express their need in a slightly different way, but, but avoiding the assumption that just because of.
[00:39:31] Well, this person's like this, we know what they want or they, we know what they need. And and it's a powerful human moment than the story.
[00:39:38] David: And so then you get the, the healing itself which just comes at the command of Jesus. Again, that shouldn't surprise the reader of John, because John has aligned Jesus as This is, the, this is the word This is The one. who speaks all things into being. So, So
[00:39:56] in one sense, you could read this text and go, well, you actually, how does this miracle even happen?
[00:40:00] W but by this point in John's gospel, John, I think is hoping or, you know how this miracle happens. The one who speaks creation speaks it into being, it was just get up, pick up your mat and walk. And and if, and I think John Sutter. Hints of that to us because this language of pick up your mat, and walk, gets repeated on several occasions . The, talk about the pickup, your mat and walk. as if that is actually the miracle word, which I think John, wants you to see will it is. but then the really remarkable thing for me is that it's very apparent that they don't know who the man doesn't actually know who.
[00:40:40] Jesus is.
[00:40:42] John: Incredible. Absolutely incredible. And, and doesn't that say something? Yeah, I mean, it, it says something about a boat. Jesus. Now, whether there's a, a sense of. And asking him to pick up as much on Shabbat that there's going to be some controversy created, and Jesus is a word that that's supposed to go down.
[00:41:01] And, and may then feel it. He can pick up with this man later, but it is quite remarkable that Jesus sets this man in complete wholeness after 38 years of suffering. And doesn't say, oh, by the way I'm Jesus. It is it, is it a remarkable, remarkable, and it does add to the intrigue of this, the word became flesh and we have seen his glory.
[00:41:22] So the man sees the glory of the word made flesh before knowing who the word made flesh is.
[00:41:29] David: I love that. I love that. And so now this question of
[00:41:32] Jesus's identity. That's something that we're going to pick up in the next episode. So hang on for a couple of days and you can jump into that because that's going to open up a bigger series of questions
[00:41:42] about about Jesus and the story. but just as, as we sort of round out our time, just now, John. 14 is, is interesting to me when Jesus does bump into the guy later and Jesus,
[00:41:59] and even I love a good, this is so many things I just want to keep unpacking. John's language is so heavy. It's so weighted. I don't know who had the idea. It's worth letting people know that we said, Let's do one episode on John.
[00:42:12] five.
[00:42:12] And then we said, maybe we should do two episodes in John five and right this very moment, Jonathan. Maybe we should do three episodes challenge of, but, but Jesus found him, like, I love the weight of that language later. Jesus found him like, goodness me, what a, what a, what is sort of thought that there's, there's, there's this double layer of something going on there.
[00:42:36] The Jesus is, is finding us and he finds him in the temple. And why is that so significant? Because the man still is wondering where the guys wonder around with these. Illegally. And we'll come back to that in the next episode, he's mad underneath his arm. He's gone to temple, which is beautiful.
[00:42:51] and there's a, there's a subsidiary there as well, but Jesus.
[00:42:54] finds him and system we'll see.
[00:42:56] So you're well again, But then he says this stop sinning or something worse may happen to you. And I think this lane here pulls us back in. Big narrative of John. Now that Jesus is not simply here to heal our ailments. And I don't wish to minimize this man's story by saying that, but now we start to see that Jesus, and this is language again, we'll see in John.
[00:43:20] Well, yeah, but there's something else going on. There's this? And I feel like this language, of sin causes us so much problems in, in contemporary context,
[00:43:29] because. I think we're scared of the language, and we all we all have and I'm kind of tempted to say we all, because I think even if you're not somebody who regularly attends church or even has exposure to church, we're aware, oh, Christians, those are those people that are always talking.
[00:43:52] about sin.
[00:43:53] Right. And so then I think what we've seen happen, within the church is we've we feel like we've given ourselves bad press by always talking about, sin. so the response to that has been either never talk about sin or, to minimize sin. and one of the ways we minimize sin, you hear this a lot in kids, church and stuff like that is, oh, sin.
[00:44:17] Sin is just like the wrong things that we do, right.
[00:44:20] But what you see in John's gospel, you see this in Paul's letters, actually, you see this throughout the whole Bible. I like to describe the sin is I really like this phrase,
[00:44:32] I'm curious as to what you think of it, John, but, but sin is the human relational dysfunction with God,
[00:44:39] Right? So, or sinning rather is that the Bible.
[00:44:43] paints this picture of. Of an evil force, which we call sin. But then if you actually go back to the Genesis story, you've went there. already. So God, said, where are you? why did God say, where are?
[00:44:55] you? Is because the humans had decided that they were going to do their own thing rather than, God's thing. and that creates
[00:45:03] this relational break between humanity and God. And that then leads us into the whole Jesus story. But this reestablishment of this relational connection, and I know, I hope.
[00:45:14] people don't hear me saying, well, that sounds like a minimizing sin, but if you think about it like this, if all of what God's trying to do through his good creation is be in relationship with humanity.
[00:45:26] And we do things which fracture that relationship. Then that's hugely problematic to our story. I mean, how did that, does that? How does that work as an exploration?
[00:45:36] John: I think it's very, I think it's very helpful. And I think it, it also helps to sort of read this statement from Jesus, because there's no implication in a story previously that the man is there as a sick person because of sin.
[00:45:51] David: No, not at all.
[00:45:52] John: so there's clearly a different narrative being created here, a sin. So the danger is we read that as oh, right.
[00:45:58] Okay. So then he must have send to get sick. And Jesus is essentially saying don't sin again, or you'll be worse off. But of course, if Jesus is especially in the locality of the temple talking to this man about leaving a life of self, leaving a life of self governance autonomy, doing his own thing away from the alignment with.
[00:46:23] Then actually, actually this is really important. And of course, as we lean into the rest of chapter five, Jesus uses this exact language of himself. He says, I don't do anything by myself. I do what the father does, whatever the father does. I do whatever the father says. I say, he's always at work and I'm working to.
[00:46:42] And there is this language of profound alignment in the rest of chapter five, which then I think fits nicely with this idea that, that what the Lord ultimately wants is for us to be men and women who truly align our lives with. And walk away from this sense of independence from him and self-governance, which is fundamentally the issue of the garden.
[00:47:09] And fundamentally at the heart of all sin, the heart of all sin is this is what I want. This is what I will do. This is where I am going. This is what I will have every respective of the implications or the feelings of God or anyone else for that. So it absolutely does seem to fit. And I think our viewers or listeners should not hear it as Jesus warning him that sends some height is going to take him back into sickness.
[00:47:38] In fact, later on in chapter nine of John Jesus, absolutely wax that one on the head as well. So it's, it's, there's a deeper conversation here of alignment and that alignment conversation is taking place in the temple. And then straight after this, Jesus talks about his alignment to the father. So I think there are some big connectors going on when Jesus confronts the man about his sin
[00:48:01] David: think about how that reconstructs your view of God, if it needs reconstructing that if, if you work with the paradigm, that sin is the wrong things that we do you, like I say, which I think. actually minimize these sin, but it also, it converts your image. Of God into this judge with a rule book who's just waiting and watching. for which rules you're going to violate. Whereas
[00:48:29] if you actually go back to Genesis, who is God, But someone who wants to be in relationship With us, but our tendency is to hide from him. And and sin is the things that we do that hide us things, once it's, I also want to say you can't hide from God, but there's that sense that we try to, and we attempt to, we try to live out broken. So Gardner. Becomes not judged looking for what we're doing wrong, but farther looking to establish relationship with us, which is again, why the parable of the prodigal son is
[00:49:02] such a powerful parallel bill of Jesus, because it's reconstructing. our idea of God, But if you reconstruct your idea of God, you also have to reconstruct your idea of brokenness in your idea of what, of what sin is.
[00:49:15] And I think this is what Jesus is almost.
[00:49:18] hinting at again, that you see here, because this question, if the identity of Jesus is being explored by John and his relationship to God, therefore our relationship to God as well.
[00:49:29] John: and, and I think it's beautiful day that, that the miracle, the miracle itself. begins in a place I'm known as the host of loving kindness, which is just absolutely stunning but has become possibly a place of Superstation.
[00:49:44] But it ends up, it ends up, it finishes the story finishes in the temple, which is. Or at least represented the. Physical presence of God, the embodiment of God on earth. And of course you get this beautiful idea that the man is in the temple doing what he would do as a good Jewish person, but who does he meet in the temple, but the person who is the very embodiment of God on earth in that context.
[00:50:10] So he moves from this place, this host of loving. To this, this temple precinct, where he engages with the presence of God, the word of God himself. And that, of course for us has got to be the ultimate trajectory of wholeness and healing. We move from our own ideas. Well, if the water moves and I. I'll be whole, but then we moved from that to actually it's Jesus.
[00:50:33] Jesus is the one that made me whole, Jesus is the one that transformed me and Jesus has. And where does he get that revelation of Jesus, but a temple that represents the very essence and presence of God on earth. So it's a beautiful trajectory, I think in the story as well.
[00:50:47] David: what really launches us into that trajectory is the second half of verse nine, which says the day on which this took place was a Sabbath. And that sets us up for our next episode.
[00:51:05] John: Marvelous.
[00:51:06] So that is it for today. Thanks so much for listening and we hope you enjoyed this episode. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something we set, you can reach out to us and podcast@twotechs.com or by liking and following the two texts podcast. On Facebook. Instagram, Twitter and YouTube.
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