In which John and David arrive at the final "sign" of John's Gospel's miracles. As they jump into chapter 11 and the story of Lazarus the discuss Lazarus, Love, and Martha amongst other things. Part 2 of this chapter will release on Thursday.
Episode Outline
Episode 35 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 19
If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagramand Twitter. We're also on YouTube. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?
Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021
In which John and David arrive at the final "sign" of John's Gospel's miracles. As they jump into chapter 11 and the story of Lazarus the discuss Lazarus, Love, and Martha amongst other things. Part 2 of this chapter will release on Thursday.
Episode Outline
Episode 35 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 19
If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagramand Twitter. We're also on YouTube. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?
Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021
Transcript Auto-Generated by Descript.com
[00:00:00] Intro: Hi there. I'm David Harvey and I'm here with John Andrews and this. Is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries here every two weeks talking about two different texts from the Bible. This is our second season. It's about the miracles of Jesus. And this. His episode 19 and it's called lazarus. Part one.
[00:00:31] David: John we have reached the final two episodes of the miracles season and we are, we are amped up on miracles. Okay. And You said, you said just before we hit record. if we can get through this current miracle in two episodes, that will be a miracle.
[00:00:58] John: Yeah. Not, not quite on the level of the resurrection of Lazarus, but I think it's going to, I mean, this is a monster chapter, so I have been, so looking forward to reflecting with you on this it's just an incredible story at so many levels, so magnificent chapter and I'm very excited about sharing.
[00:01:18] David: Yeah. So, so we're going to take it in turns to read our way through this. one, because it says We're going to read from John chapter 11, verse one, right The way through to verse 44.
[00:01:27] Right? So you track this, this. Whole account of the story of Lazarus. And
[00:01:35] it's quite, it's quite the thing because here we are at the seventh of Jesus, he signs in John's gospel and they've been, they've been heading towards. a sort of.
[00:01:47] Pinch point haven't they,
[00:01:48] John: Yeah.
[00:01:49] David: and this is the big one. And, And from this, the whole gospel, then changes, tone. Doesn't it We can move away from public ministry and we end up in a long series of conversations privately. with the disciples. So There's a lot going to happen in the next. couple of episodes. I
[00:02:06] John: Yeah. It's a bit of a tipping point in the gospel. Isn't it? It feels like a, a tipping point moment than this incredible story.
[00:02:15] David: do you want to, do you want to take us away, John chapter 11 of John's gospel and verse one?
[00:02:22] John: It'd be deleted too. So let's go. And now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister, Martha, this Mary whose brother Lazarus. No LASIK was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with our. So the sisters sent word to Jesus, Lord, the one you love is sick.
[00:02:50] When he heard this, Jesus said this sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory, sort of God's son may be glorified through it. Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more deaths. And then he said to his disciples, let us go back to Judea.
[00:03:13] But rabbi, they said a short while ago, the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you're going back. Jesus answered. Are there not 12 hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble for they see by the world's light. It is when a person walks at night that they stumble for. They have no.
[00:03:38] After he had said this, he went on to tell them our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up. His disabled replied, Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better. And Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he had meant natural sleep. So then he told them, plainly Lazarus is.
[00:03:58] And for your sake, I am glad I was not there so that you may believe, but let us go to him. Then Thomas also known as daddy miss said to the rest of the disciples. Let us also go that we may die with him. God, I love Thomas. You got love, Thomas. You gotta love that. Beautiful.
[00:04:17] David: So then picking it up at verse 17, it says on his arrival, the Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem. And many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. when Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him.
[00:04:42] But Mary stayed at home. Lord Martha said to Jesus, if you had been here, my brother would not have died, but I know that even now, God will give you whatever you have. And Jesus said to her your brother.
[00:04:57] will rise again. Martha answered. I know that he will rise again in the resurrection that the last day Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life.
[00:05:11] The one who believes in me will live, even though they die. And whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe. Yes, Lord. She replied. I believe that you Are the Messiah, the son of God.
[00:05:25] who has come into the world. After she had said this, she went back and called her sister. Mary a site teacher is here.
[00:05:33] She said, and is asking for you when Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but we're still at the place where Martha had met. When did you use, who had been with Mary in the house? Comforting. Her noticed how quickly she got up and went out. They followed her supposing.
[00:05:55] She was going to the tomb to mourn there. When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have done. When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled.
[00:06:18] Where have you laid him? He asked, come and see Lord. They replied Jesus wet. Then some of the Jews said, see how he loved him. But some of them said could not. He who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying.
[00:06:41] John: Jesus wants more deeply moved Kim to the. It was a key of, with a stone laid across the entrance, take away the stone. He said, but Lord said, Martha, the sister of the dead man, by this time, there is a bad order for he's been there four days. Then Jesus said, did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God.
[00:07:06] So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, father, I thank you that you have heard. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me. When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, Lazarus come out. The dead man came out his hands and his feet wrapped with strips of linen and a cloth around his face.
[00:07:38] And Jesus said to them, tick off the gree of clothes and let him go. Wow,
[00:07:47] David: Whoa. I want to say so much about those 44 verses and at the same time, there's a part of me thinks I want to. And that's all, we've got time for. Just think about that for a few days. Like, what is story story?
[00:08:06] John: you're absolutely right. That has been even reflecting on it and prepping for this this recording. I've had exactly the same feeling of one of real excitement to Del then. Cause I think there's so many beautiful, beautiful things here, but I really felt a sense of awe. I remember many years.
[00:08:26] Visiting the Vatican in Rome and going to some Peter's Basilica, an amazing building and standing in the middle of the Basilica and thinking, wow. I mean, I, I wouldn't necessarily personally be comfortable with everything in that building. I'm not really into buildings in that way, in terms of expressing.
[00:08:48] Our worship to God, but, but actually you stand on, you just go, wow. And I just want that to stand in that building for a while and appreciate it. It was that magnificent and start or inspiring. And they think for me, John chapter 11, is that also part of me as a teacher, wants to dive in and just teach and learn.
[00:09:08] And another purchase goes, wow, this is so magnificent at so many levels. It's just beautiful stuff. Gorgeous. I know exactly how you failed there.
[00:09:18] David: And, and he's almost like a, disclaimer, it star of an episode like this, we will not cover. Everything that we want to talk about in this, in this chapter, because There's so many layers and there's even a level of which if you've been listening to our conversations about John's gospel towards the end of this miracles season, hopefully even by now, there's, resonancies happening for you. this.
[00:09:46] things that we've pointed out in earlier, stories that, that I'm hoping to. You go, oh, wait, there's that language again? Let you know language,
[00:09:54] around God's glory, how Jesus is, is revealing something of God's glory. These, the the, the language
[00:10:00] of light, the, the language of, of, of walking in night and, not in the light that the, I am.
[00:10:07] statement that just kind of snuck its way into that miracle story there.
[00:10:11] This. And then Jesus has relationships. This, this kind of really complex and deep relationship he clearly has with this family. Here, th th the onlookers are even able to assert that there is a relationship here that we've not seen with anybody else in Jesus. This is, you see how he loved him.
[00:10:35] This is the. This is the only Family family. that we see this sort of relationship in the, in, in that?
[00:10:41] certain way publicly at this point in the gospel. So, so there's a lot of layers to this to this chapter.
[00:10:48] John: Mm, absolutely. I mean, I think that's a great starting point is, is Jesus' relationship to this family. We we've had a hint enter that in Luke's gospel, Luke chapter 10, where, Mary sits at the feet of Jesus and the home of Mary, Martha, Martha, Martha, and Lazarus. And you get a sense that this is.
[00:11:07] This is him sitting with friends. He's he's there, but it's not, it's not as explicit as it is here in John chapter 11. And in fact, our listeners may have picked up if you were listening to the rhythm of the reading three gorgeous references to this loveness that's going on. So verse three, Lord, the one you love is sick.
[00:11:26] Verse five, Jesus loved Martha and her sister Lazarus. So that's a comment from John himself and starting that in verse 36, the crowed see high. He loved them. So you're getting three references from three sort of different sources, all touching in on the one idea that, that Jesus really loves this family and a thing.
[00:11:48] But that is something very precious. I think it gives us an insight into the relationships that Jesus has. I think we see him at a missional level reaching out to people at a ministry level, touching people, but clearly with this family, there is a deep friendship level. There's a love level, which comes across three times.
[00:12:07] And I, and I just, I just love this repeat idea. And David, there was something within this that I wanted to reflect with you on and maybe get your views. To help maybe myself, as well as the listeners I noticed and looking at the original text of each of those references, that there are two gorgeous Greek words used interchangeably.
[00:12:28] So in verse three and in verse 36, when it refers to Jesus, loving them, it's fairly. And then in verse five, when it says Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus, it's a PEO. So you're, you're getting the interchange of these two beautiful words. And I'm clearly used interchangeably, not only here, but another parts of John's gospel.
[00:12:52] He seems to flip between these two words quite comfortably and that I couldn't help them. But think about John 21, when Jesus is with. Peter do you love me? And Peter says I do. And, and there's this tension between the idea that every time Jesus asked the question, at least the first two times he uses Arco pale.
[00:13:12] And, and then when Peter responds each time he uses phileo. And then the third time GS and unders there's often been a lot made of that. And I'm wondering is, do we sometimes make too much of that on, are these words just used much more comfortably interchangeably by John to essentially say a similar thing?
[00:13:33] Or do you think there is some leverage in, in highlighting the difference?
[00:13:40] David: Yeah, I, I've heard many sermons in my time where whole whole ideas were built on the different words in John 21. I come from a school of thought.
[00:13:53] that thinks that by the time of John's gospel being written and even, but, by the time that Jesus is talking to this, their probably. I somebody might want to write in and Disagree with this. And actually I'm, I'm, we're actually open. to that sort of conversation. I think that probably by the time of John's gospel, the jump between AGA PEI and phileo is probably.
[00:14:19] dissimilar to uni. Distinction that we would draw between sofa and couch. So you know, it may be in times gone by.
[00:14:28] they had very distinct differences, but by the time
[00:14:32] by the time we get to. The writing this gospel,
[00:14:36] I think that there, there's probably not much between, between them. I, I mean, CS Lewis brought this idea into, I think a lot of, kind of popular
[00:14:47] theology when he wrote the book about the four loves. And if you look. Classical Greek there's classical.
[00:14:53] Greeks, very, very early that's it's earlier than the time the new Testament being written with, at age, very precise because it's very, it's, it's the Queen's English version
[00:15:03] It it's, it's really precise.
[00:15:05] Whereas, so like, filet or, and go pay seem to have subtly different concepts in, in
[00:15:12] John: Yeah.
[00:15:13] David: of in that, in that place. The new Testament is written in Koine, Greek, quite literally common Greek it's everyday Greek, and What you sort of see. That there can be times where words are used very specifically you and I've talked about this throughout this podcast.
[00:15:29] So, so nobody's going to be surprised by that. What you have to do is sort of say, are there any clues or markers in the text that something's going on differently here. And I personally, can't really see it. In fact, actually, this is one of the texts where you see John seems to just bounce these words around slate.
[00:15:50] John: yeah.
[00:15:51] David: differently, obviously it's God, so loved the world that that's a, love that we get. We get back in, in John chapter three 16.
[00:16:01] John: But
[00:16:01] David: But the fact that, like, here's a good example. It's being used interchangeably. They, Hey Jesus, you you, you love Lazarus.
[00:16:08] and he's sick, that's The message from Martha John's comment is yep.
[00:16:12] He, he actually loves all of them. Now, whether there's a level of
[00:16:15] Nuance that Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So he's not just sad about what's happening with Martha, with Lazarus. He sad about, because there's love sort of wider than that. Here's the thing as well I think it's important to say. Is that when you get.
[00:16:32] to John chapter 21. So, we don't need to jump into read that just now you can read that, that you've got any, any time in your own, in your own space, someone can, but you've got this interchange to Peter and Jesus, where Jesus is picking up.
[00:16:45] with Peter after his death.
[00:16:48] And So Peter has now, I mean, you got to feel bad for Peter, he denies Jesus. That's a pretty rough situation. Like Jesus has coming to his death. One of the last things that Jesus
[00:16:59] sees of pizza is Peter denying him, Peter, like, Is there anything worse than,
[00:17:04] denying your friend before he gets killed? With my tongue in cheek here, but also reverence John. Well, perhaps the only thing. worse Is that friend coming back from the dead and meeting.
[00:17:16] you at the beach three days later. No, you have to have that awkward conversation. But, but here's, here's the thing that gets lost. And this is maybe there's an important point And, for anybody that's listening to our podcast that does a bit, of preaching is that sometimes a slightly complex and perhaps clever language, point, like the first two times
[00:17:38] that Jesus says to Peter, do you love me? The response he gets is phileo. And then finally get this question of, of Agora pay.
[00:17:46] It's a kinda, people make a lot of that point. Here's, what's interesting to me. Whenever I've heard that made in a sermon the sermon gets distracted by this kind of slightly well, actually. I would argue as a tenuous Greek point, but what gets missed is to me?
[00:18:01] what's beautiful in this story is three times Peter is asked, do you know Jesus?
[00:18:07] And Peter says no. And Three times.
[00:18:11] Jesus gives Peter the chance to say to you. I love you, but, And the fact that the third time it says that Peter was hurt because Jesus has to third time I think is because now Peter realizes what Jesus is doing, that Jesus is unfolding that, he's given him three chances just to put everything back to normal again.
[00:18:31] And, and that almost always gets missed as the main point of this passage. when we get caught up in an argument,
[00:18:38] about. What does phileo mean? And what is the gap you mean? And I don't mean that.
[00:18:41] to dismiss. I think people know our podcasts well enough to know That's not to dismiss the value. Of looking at the original language, but sometimes getting caught up on that little detail can actually push you away from what actually John's trying to tell you, which is, which is there in the English.
[00:18:56] still, which I think is, is really exciting.
[00:18:59] I mean, does that, does that make sense, John?
[00:19:00] John: It does. It's a very good reflection. And I thought it was just an interesting, maybe for some of our listeners who are digging under the surface of say the English Bible into that. They may have spotted that. And I think for me John 11 is a beautiful. Interplay of the word, and it's a seamless meaning throughout which I am very comfortable with within that.
[00:19:23] So it was great to have your reflections on that. So beautiful. But isn't that beautiful and you don't get any other family even any other individual. There's no other individual in the gospels who gets this level of loveness officially on the record from Jesus. I mean, this is a loved up. And we we've got three dynamic references in the context of one of the greatest miracles in the gospels.
[00:19:47] We've got three dynamic references that contextualize this miracle into an incredible relational love context. And Jesus clearly loves this family deeply. So I think that's worth bearing in mind. Because we will hit levels of the motion here and the story. And I think the emotion is not just because of the death of Lazarus at a technical level.
[00:20:09] I think, I think this is about a boat, Jesus, feeling something for this family, which, and a gospel that highlights more than any, that he is the sort of guy. It's beautiful that, that his, his beautiful humanity is emphasized here, both in the context of this relationship and his emotion towards them. So I thought it was a, I thought it was a reflection worth, worth making on that.
[00:20:31] So yeah. Thank you for that, David flashy.
[00:20:33] David: there's also like an interesting. Let me make a comment here that we can edit out later if if, if you decide this is way too heretical.
[00:20:41] or threatening for our podcast, but, but There's even some scholars out there, John, that
[00:20:47] pick up on this theme of, of love and, and point something out that might
[00:20:55] feel a little uncomfortable, but you have this character in John's gospel called the beloved. Right. And tradition has held that's John
[00:21:05] right We, we know that the beloved disciple is the writer of the gospel that becomes.
[00:21:10] clear by the, by the last couple of chapters. Doesn't it. But at no point in the gospel is the beloved. disciples identity reveal. And So a lot of people say, ah, yes, but the discipled, John,
[00:21:24] isn't mentioned in John's gospel, but then actually had a deeper look and you discover none. there's so many of
[00:21:31] the disciples, not none. Sorry, but the, so many of the disciples are not mentioned in John's gospel. So there's a couple of scholars out there have picked up on this. And I just think it's curious. So again, please don't bet your house on this. Don't go, don't go telling some, someone mid sermon
[00:21:50] that they're wrong in this, but here we have a decisive.
[00:21:54] Of Jesus. Somebody that definitely is following Jesus. They're there. They're tracking with Jesus Martha has announced that you're the Messiah, the son of God. comfortable. So I think it's fair to say, Mary, Martha Lazarus. they're disciples of Jesus and
[00:22:06] The text tells us very clearly. they are loved by Jesus. the one you love. is sick. So, so, so, so that's quite interesting. There's this, there's this guy out there he's known as the beloved disciple and Jesus gets a message. Hey, the one you And he's sick. Right? The beloved disciple doesn't appear in this. story, by the way, in, in that reference, Everybody else then says, oh, by the way, Jesus, he really loved him.
[00:22:32] Right. But what's Really interesting that he's at the end of,
[00:22:38] At the end of John's gospel, there's this interaction in conversation with the beloved disciple and Jesus and Peter. Right. And, and the, and John just makes reference to this fact that there's this rumor out there, that the beloved disciple will never die.
[00:22:57] And, and, and, and th the the beloved disciple. writing the gospel Kind of puts to death that rumor,
[00:23:02] John: rubric,
[00:23:03] David: but that's not really what's going on
[00:23:05] John: going on here,
[00:23:05] David: but some scholars have said, wait a minute, this is interesting.
[00:23:08] You've got, you've got, a beloved disciple. Who's a named, you've got a guy called Lazarus. who everybody says, Jesus loved this guy called Lazarus died And Jesus rose again. And For some reason,
[00:23:19] there's a rumor that this beloved disciple will never die. there is a way to do those math that you end up with. Lazarus being the beloved Disciple and therefore potentially the author of John's gospel. Now. We're just out in the
[00:23:37] etheric of theories there for a second, but I don't know if that's too far off base. Let me, what's your sort How do you respond? to something like that?
[00:23:46] John: Well, it's, it's an incredible sort of idea. I think there are some lovely nuances in the text that, that open that sort of conversation up. It's fascinating. I think like many of our, our listeners that will have been a brand new potential idea.
[00:24:04] And I'm, to be honest, I'm not really sure. On that, I think, I think what, where I would absolutely be comfortable in settling on is that there clearly is a level of love between Jesus and this family, which is incredible. And of course, Lazarus does become as, as we see at the end of the. And even into chapter 12, Lazarus becomes a real focal point for not only those who are putting their faith in Jesus, but even in a group of people who are trying to extinguish this ministry of Jesus and they, they know, see Lazarus as a threat because he's the one who's been raised from the dead.
[00:24:43] So there is a powerful subtext of that, which I think we, we. Sort of, don't always appreciate in terms of Lazarus's influence from this moment on which is an incredible one. And may well factor in the way that that gospel is constructed, but yeah, fascinating. I mean just fascinating,
[00:25:03] David: by John chapter 12, verse 10, there's a plot to kill Lazarus as well as a plot to kill, to kill Jesus. I mean, listen, I make a comment like that because My hope is that someone's response to the Lazarus thing is just to go ahead and read John's gospel a little bit more deeply. When I teach John's gospel. I talk about, I talk about it as John's gospel. Like I'm Not I'm not out there. I remember talking with a pastor once and I was doing some teaching on this story.
[00:25:30] and I mentioned this to him and he was like, oh yeah, no, you can't say that on Sunday. He said, and Which I completely get. I'm not trying to, disturb anything, but it feels like if you're tracking with us in this podcast,
[00:25:43] you you're, you're sort of okay with us occasionally just going, Hey, you know what?
[00:25:47] Some scholars have asked this question, we'll have a look at it and see what you think yourself. actually in the grand scheme of things, it's a kind of fun, little thing to explore. And if the net result is you just know John's gospel a little bit more by the end of it,
[00:26:01] then I feel like that's to be that's to be encouraged.
[00:26:05] And it doesn't change your faith in Jesus either,
[00:26:08] John: no. And it doesn't, it, it doesn't change the story. It doesn't change anything that we're talking about. It's one of those. Oh, that's an interesting reflection. That's an interesting thought. I'm doing a little bit of work at the moment on the new book on John mark, and there's a gorgeous little reflection in, in Mark's gospel of the young man who flees the garden so quickly that, they grab his clothes and he flees naked.
[00:26:34] And there is a theory out though that the young man and the guy. Was John mark himself. And, and of course the timelines potentially track. Now you couldn't build your house on that, but in the context of John Mark's story, his desertion eventual desertion, his fall, his race, it's a fascinating little, oh, that's worth just talking in the drawer.
[00:26:54] As I said, as we said, we wouldn't build our hosts on it, but it's a fascinating little reflection and those gorgeous little highlights are all over the gospel and UN. Don't distract us, hopefully, but certainly create a little bit of interest
[00:27:09] David: But what it does. not dissimilar to your comment,
[00:27:11] just there, but Mark's gospel what it does. Just, it just leaves out there. Like I say, don't even build, you don't build your house on it. Don't build anybody else's house on this either. But what it does mean is if there is any, if there was any validity to, as a theory, what we're reading now is biography.
[00:27:27] is autobiography.
[00:27:28] This is, this is Lazarus, no working that out. And how might that change? How we read the story?
[00:27:34] John: Yeah, fascinating. One of the things that struck me having for us having this just on John chapter nine together, I heard a number of echoes in John 11 that we had picked up and John and, and you'd, you'd made reference to this in the introduction that if you're tracking.
[00:27:51] The sort of, and stories we've done and the George Johanne age stories we've done, you start to pick up these little repeat thoughts and ideas. And I loved this lovely reference of verse four. This sickness, he says will not end in death. No one is for God's glory so that God's son may be glorified through it.
[00:28:10] Couldn't help, but hear the echo of John nine three in a word, Jesus is actually when the disciples say, who sinned this man or his parents, he said, well, actually, none of them, this is, this is sort of God's work. God's glory will be manifest. And then. Absolutely. And then, and then we go on and, and our John 11, where Jesus talks about in verses nine and 10, are there not 12 hours of daylight?
[00:28:35] You walk in the day that you don't stumble. If you walk at night, you do stumble on the direct. I can act go of John nine, for as long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. And of course the nine and 11 are two phenomenal sayings. So this is, if you read John 11 is the seventh sane and we've reflected on is the resurrection of Jesus, the seventh, same, which does have a gorgeous, poetic, theological cemetery to me.
[00:29:04] But, but if, if 11 is the fatal sane, Then of course nine is the penultimate saying, this is the buildup to the, to the sort of final one. I know gorgeous sort of links of both sicknesses are not actually a boat, the person so much, but about what God's gonna do through it. And also then the late and the darkness reflection.
[00:29:29] Did I, I don't know if you, if you picked up, but I, I couldn't. I mean, that was an unmissable Akhil to me, as I read the.
[00:29:35] David: Well
[00:29:35] , if you remember, when we were talking about John nine, I pushed forward a little bit into that illusion of Jesus as the, light and the Judas betrayal narrative, where Judas goes out into darkness. And then the next time we see Judas, he has a Torah. And, and this even almost speaks to that, even some more Jesus is like, well, there's daylight.
[00:29:57] And if you walk in daylight, you don't stumble because you see. But when a person walks at night. They stumble because they have no light. And this is just we're, we're approaching This betrayal sort of narrative that's coming on here. And there's even a sense of. Verse nine, the person, you.
[00:30:14] know, John, I think is always talking at double levels.
[00:30:18] Anyone who walks in the data will not stumble for they see by this world's lights.
[00:30:26] John: Yeah.
[00:30:26] David: By the, actually by the light of this world, they see, they can agree sentence format, you can't help, but wonder well, who is the light of this world or what
[00:30:38] is the light of this world? Well, in John's gospel it's Jesus.
[00:30:42] So is he literally talking about. Hey, when you're walking down the road in daytime, you can see because there's light in the world. or is he actually now moved into the metaphorical. Hey, when you're on the journey of life, how
[00:30:56] are you seeing it? It's beautifully. It's beautifully. And I was, I was with John as well because I, I, the, the line, I'm just scrolling to it because I have, I have I have terrible memory for verse references that says verse 37, notice the illusion there back to chapter nine as well.
[00:31:16] But some of them said could not. He who opened the eyes of the blind. I have kept this man from dying. And it's a D I mean, to me, I think that's a direct reference to the chapter.
[00:31:27] nine story, because remember we talked about how the blind man never gets named. He's just known as the blind man. And here he is two chapters later he can see, and he's still being referred to as the blind man. The poor guy. Now, interestingly, in that, of course we see this Messianic
[00:31:44] miracle kind of, flow happening again, wherein we we've talked about this elsewhere in this series. think about the logic of that could not the person who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying well, is, which is the hardest,
[00:32:01] of those miracles making the blind person see, or the dead person be raised.
[00:32:06] And This I think is where Showing us insight into kind of Jewish messianic expectation. This, this expectation of who is this liberation of this Messiah, this anointed one of God. Well, in The old Testament, regular profits. raise the dead. Elijah and Elisha are in there doing that, but nobody helps the blind to see.
[00:32:27] So there's this sense that Healing the blind is a messianic mirror. Healing, the raising the dead is Kind of a regular profit, can do that. Irregular profit with inverted commerce, but a regular profit, can raise the debt. whereas,
[00:32:44] John: whereas,
[00:32:46] David: I only a Messiah can heal the blind. So for the people standing there, there's almost a level of, well, if he is the Messiah, this shouldn't be as hard for him as what we've seen him do already.
[00:32:57] So the two, the chapter nine miracle and the chapter 11 miracle, they're definitely, they're definitely adjacent pieces on the jigsaw puzzle. They're definitely hooked into each other.
[00:33:06] John: connecting together. Yeah. You, you, you do. And again, doesn't that show the, the beauty of reading a text like John, and we've reflected on this and other parts of the, of the gospels, reading the text and its flow. You get a sense of it starting to fit together for you and connect out.
[00:33:25] Of course you realize then what John is doing as well and how these little bits of language bridge across. These two magnificent stories, which are absolutely outstanding. So yeah, I thought that I thought it was a nice little illusion to make reference to
[00:33:43] David: Well, and of course, and you made the connection and then. Just, just tie a bow on that just briefly. No, this is for God's glory so that God's son may be glorified through it. so that gives us a little tie back to the star of John chapter nine, but Actually also ties us, right? The way back to that Johanna and prologue in chapter, one that, the, the, the, he is common revealed his glory to us.
[00:34:06] So, so again, Y we spent that time talking about chapter one back at the start of this part of the season is is you start to see John's, he's tying, there's a little thread running its way through the whole, the whole narrative here. Now Transitioning line then a little bit to some, let's just talk about the strange bit
[00:34:27] of this story.
[00:34:28] If, if it's possible to have
[00:34:30] a strange bit of a story, that's about the resurrection of someone who is dead. If there can be even something stranger. now, Jesus, verse five. Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. Now the Greek then throws in this little conjunction, which is translated. So in the nav.
[00:34:48] Think about that. They're like accordingly Jesus loved Martha. And
[00:34:53] her sister and Lazarus. So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was for two tastes. More like, like that's
[00:35:03] John: it.
[00:35:03] David: The the logic of that.
[00:35:05] statement is, is really interesting. Isn't It
[00:35:11] John: It is absolutely an and I, I think there are sometimes awkward moments and attacks that you just cannot ignore. And there is that sort of awkwardness there that why. What do you do that? But I think, I think we're sort of helped by his explanation later on, but it is it is a striking way in which that's connected together.
[00:35:34] He loved them. So he stared
[00:35:36] David: Yes, we did nothing about it.
[00:35:37] John: Yeah. So I, and of course, even when we step away from that and think about our own understanding of the Lord and what the Lord should do, how the Lord should be here, what the Lord you're doing on our behalf and how often we are prone as humans to judge his love for us, according to what.
[00:35:57] Does for us or when he does it or how he does it. This is a, a wonderfully paradoxical moment and also slightly troublesome. We, we know big, we know big picture that Jesus is delaying because he has. The resurrection of Lazarus in mine, because he clearly states that Lazarus is dead. He says, so that's, that's go.
[00:36:20] So, so there's no confusion in Jesus' mind here as to what is happening, but of course that that delay is troublesome because it looks like Jesus doesn't care. And I think that's why John worked so hard to tell us in the taxed. No, no, no. He really does care because three times we get an emphasis that he loves.
[00:36:40] This family. So it's not the lack of love. And the fact that he even joins this statement that he loves the family to stay in two dares means the delay is not lack of love. The delay is not lack of care. There's something deeper going on. No, for our human brains. I think that's a difficult one that it feels a little bit like, forgive me for this listeners.
[00:37:02] It feels a little bit like the Lord's playing games with our lives. And of course, he's. He's not, he has a I've reading it this morning. And my daily devotions, Isaiah 55, his wares are not our wares. His thoughts are not our thoughts. There is a sense, of course, in which we are grappling with a, with an infinite wisdom that is beyond ours that can see things we can see and understand things.
[00:37:25] We can't understand. The, the cold reading of this text looks like it's uncaring, but John has worked very hard to show us no, no, this Jesus loves his family, but he's delaying for a reason. The Louie may not like that delay. We may not even understand that delay. There is a greater purpose for that delay, which, which ultimately of course comes to late.
[00:37:47] David: And the whole, this section of the text from that verse six, right through then to verse 16 is just a, almost about a descent into confusion. So, so the, you as the reader are taken on this journey of what actually is Going on here. There's a little, you reminded me. when you were talking just there.
[00:38:08] There's a, there's a book out there by it's a, it's a novel by re. Beard Caldwell Lazarus is dead. And I don't know if everybody will be comfortable with this, sort of type of work, but he essentially writes a novel in the gaps of this story. Right. because,
[00:38:26] and it's, it's, it's fun. Like if you can read this book and. And remember the whole time while you're reading it, none of all of this is made up. because the, the story leaves, these leaves huge gaps for us. Doesn't it? We, We don't know what happens in these four days, but what this guy does in writing this book, which is really interesting. He basically, he picks up on this first verse 18. Bethany is less than two miles
[00:38:53] from Jerusalem, right? It's it's, it's like it's a half an hour walk and it takes Jesus four days to get there.
[00:39:01] John: there.
[00:39:02] David: And so what he does, is he writes this novel from the perspective,
[00:39:06] of Mary, Martha, and Lazarus, who are like, why is Jesus not coming? And Lazarus is getting progressively more ill And then eventually he dies. and then eventually, Jesus turns up and and it's, I just really enjoyed it. John. And that says, cause the whole time you've disengaged from this is not what actually happened, but I feel like it's sometimes interesting to drop into that, space, with the, with the, the biblical characters and go, what would that be like Jesus is like one of your best friends, if we can, if we can exaggerate, well, not maybe not exaggerate, but there's clearly this Very close love relationship. between them all. And,
[00:39:45] John: And,
[00:39:46] David: It's yeah. It's
[00:39:47] like, where is he got to, what's he doing? Why is he not. Why is he not doing that?
[00:39:51] So this, this let's talk about this I'm not here to try and sell someone else's book, but, but we talked about this descending sort of confusion. So why are we not going back to Judea where we are now, then you get the sense of what are those people They're, they're pretty angry at you.
[00:40:08] Jesus's response is about walking in the late night in the darkness. And then he tells them, Lazarus has fallen asleep, I'm going there to wake him up. His disciples reply. Oh, well, if he's sleeping.
[00:40:18] he's going to get better. So that's that that's, that's pretty good. There's an old Jewish piece of wisdom in the, in the Mishnah that says if ever anyone's sick, you should only go and visit.
[00:40:29] In the middle of the day, you should leave them alone in the morning and 11 at night, it says, because if you go to visit a sick person in the morning
[00:40:37] because they've just slept. they'll appear better. and You'll forget to pray. for them. And if you go and visit a sick person that night, there'll be really And you won't pray for them because you'll think there's no point So you should only go and visit them in the middle of the day. Because, because.
[00:40:51] then you remember to, to pray for them. So this says, well. if You sleep in, that's probably a good thing. and then you got, I love verse 14. So Jesus told them.
[00:41:01] Lazarus is dead. It's like, come on place. You're not tracking with what?
[00:41:05] I'm on about here, like get with the program quickly. And so then Just to add that?
[00:41:11] in, just in case you have thought, well, maybe the disciples get what's going on here. Thomas throws in this line will let us.
[00:41:17] go so that we can die too.
[00:41:19] Like there's just, there's this whole sense of everybody speaking over the top of each other and nobody's paying any attention at all to what's happening. Are they.
[00:41:28] John: Yeah, and I think you hit it. Doesn't assure you how human this moment. There's a again, I think you've got one of the magnificent things about chapter 11 is, is that the humanity of. Everyone is sawn into this story. So it will climax in a moment where a dead man comes to life and walks out of agreiv, which is just stunning.
[00:41:53] But, but on the journey you've got emotion. You've got confused. You've got disappointment. You've got a uncertainty, you've got a words being missed in translation. It's all going on in the buildup to this, but yet in the chaos, Jesus will bring something of order. He will bring light into the darkness of their confusion.
[00:42:16] He'll bring clarity into the uncertainty and he'll bring life into the death. And you, you, you do get the sense of, of chaos. In the early part of this story, and then the sense that Jesus brings order, he he's the only calm maned in the room. He's, he's the one that's not panicking, not running around. He, he seems to know what's happening.
[00:42:39] And so he's able to lead this. And of course I know sometimes we criticize Thomas because it's sounds a little bit pessimistic, but I think Thomas is reflecting the fact and, and the Johanna and tax seems to reflect this, that there is a growing antagonism between. And elements of the religious community in all back in John chapter eight, they did try to stone him and that's that the disciples referenced that.
[00:43:04] And that's a scary thing, when you read that quickly, that doesn't sound like a problem, but that's a scary thing. Jesus is, especially in a Johanna and tax there's building ahead of steam. The religious community are growing only worried about him. And even at the end of this story this is a tipping point moment for you.
[00:43:24] We're a plot is then put in place to destroy Jesus. So, so Thomas is not just being pessimistic or being skeptical. Like some people have said, I think Thomas has just being really honest. He said, Hey, there's a great, great chance that if we show our face in public again, we're, we're, we're, we're sort of going to, we're going to get our heads knocked off.
[00:43:42] And so, if that's the case, well, we made as well brace ourselves for what's coming.
[00:43:47] David: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:43:48] John: I think we need to be fair to Thomas because he's reflecting the confusion, the anxiety and the uncertainty that they're all experiencing
[00:43:56] David: So push on them a little bit, John, there's then another level of confusion in a in a different way.
[00:44:04] So you say, you know what we've said about Thomas, then he actually arrives and has this conversation with Martha and then with Mary and Martha has this,
[00:44:15] John: this,
[00:44:16] David: here's one of the things I love about the conversation with mark. I think Martha gets a bit of bad press sometimes by preachers because of the Mary and Martha story elsewhere. So, w w w it's, I mean, it's, it's almost become at least within Christendom there's language around it, or I'm a bit of a Martha personality. What that means is I prefer to be Practical. I prefer to deal with just the things that are, because there's this story isn't there were Mary and Martha with Jesus. Martha's worrying about all of the kind of practicalities and Mary is sitting, listening, So Christian doms told the story of Martha, the practical, non spiritual non devotional person.
[00:44:56] and Mary, the, the highly.
[00:44:58] learned disciple of Jesus. But Martha puts together a theological conversation with Jesus hears that suggests She was paying some attention while worrying about, about the practicalities. Right?
[00:45:11] John: absolutely. Boom. I mean, she's on it. I, and in fact if our listeners may have heard it, I think when you're hearing the texts read, as well as reading it, I think there's something very powerful. I mean, her confess. Is gold pled at messianic confession, this, this rivals Peter's confession, it's virtually word for word.
[00:45:31] There's just a couple of little differences in, in terms of how that confessions put together. But, but Mary is absolutely on the money. You are the Christ. I, I believe that. And, and it's an incredible. Statement within, I believe you are the Christ, the son of God who was calm at night, remember John's rating his gospel so that we will believe that Jesus is the son of God.
[00:45:56] Martha, hasn't seen the Lazarus raised from the dead yet, and she's already. I mean, she's already in the zone, as far as this confession is concerned. And it's absolutely incredible. I know, I know there's confusion for her about when, when Jesus is your brother will rise again. And she, I think she naturally goes, yeah, I totally get that.
[00:46:18] That in the last days he'll ride. I totally understand that. And he goes, no, no, no, I'm the resurrection. So you're thinking of a resurrection is coming. I am that resurrection. I'm going to do it right now. I it's not that I can just raise people. I arm the resurrection on the life and, and then we, we push on into her sort of confess.
[00:46:41] I believe you are the Christ, the son of God who was coming to the world. I mean, this is gold plate. And I think so many people miss this in this story. They miss the fact that because we're rushing to the, to the big Lazarus come forth moment and why not? I mean, wow, we miss this absolutely amazing confession from this woman of God.
[00:47:04] You are. I believe you are the Christ. You're the son of God. Wow. And it's, it just seems to, it just seems to happen. And then people move on. It's it's, it's whether it's a private conversation between Martha and Jesus, it's almost missed except by the writer himself who records it for us, but it's an amazing moment and a huge echo of Peter's confession.
[00:47:27] David: And just, I always am going to try and raise this flag. As, as often as we get a chance to, we're two, we're two guys talking about
[00:47:35] the Bible. So, just note that this is the mess and confession of John's gospel.
[00:47:43] so when, when you're talking John about how you know, this, this is kind of parallel to Peter's confession.
[00:47:49] Well, Peter's confession happens over in the other gospels. So in John's gospel, the confession that you are the Christ the son of God. is from the mouth of a woman. Right. And I. I think that has some significance to it, highly patriarchal society society that puts men first. that women are sidelined And, and what you get,
[00:48:13] is Martha being the one that makes the true confession.
[00:48:17] And, and even though Even though we're going to at some level say she slightly wrong about what she thinks in this conversation. She actually even believes in resurrection
[00:48:27] She just doesn't realize it's about to happen to Lazarus now, but, but it, but theologically, she is on point. In fact, she is as on point and she is more on point, rather than any other person you've seen.
[00:48:43] in this gospel until.
[00:48:44] And I just don't think we should miss that, that.
[00:48:46] John positions that fulcrum of the turn, here's the confession. And it's not one of the men disciples. It's not Peter hits. It's Martha. It's not even married. It's Martha. That makes the statement. I love that, John. I think that's just
[00:49:02] John: Sort of way sort of way. I think it's a beautiful redress of the balance. Luke shows Mary at the feet of Jesus and Luke tan. And it's interesting in this, in John's account here of the resurrection man. Falls at the feet of Jesus. So Luke has her sitting at the feet of Jesus. John has her falling at the feet of Jesus and an, the very later on, I think it's the next chapter, chapter 12.
[00:49:25] He has her annointing the head of Jesus. So it's just beautiful imagery going on here. But it is mostly. Not Mary who seen this. And, and I, I love that the sort of Mary Martha was clearly listening. Martha was clearly engaging. She, there's clearly not just a sense that Jesus loves them.
[00:49:45] There's an absolute sense that Martha, Martha loves him. And and she is connecting with him in the lead up to this amazing moment. So I love that. Absolutely.
[00:49:55] David: And, I just, even, just, as we're saying, talking about it, John, you can even push the contrast a little further, I think
[00:50:01] without being, disingenuous to the text, but you've got two conversations happening, the conversation,
[00:50:09] between Jesus and the disciples and the conversation between Jesus and Martha.
[00:50:13] And I think. Martha is slightly wrong in terms of timing. Okay. She just, she, she believes that Lazarus will rise. She believes that Jesus is The Messiah and that he's the son of God. And the tweak for her.
[00:50:27] is the resurrection of Lazarus is coming soon. And in fact, The other tweak is that the resurrection is
[00:50:34] coming even sooner.
[00:50:35] The resurrection of Jesus. Whereas the disciples, the male disciples are largely in a bit of a tos,
[00:50:42] John: case
[00:50:43] David: They're not clear. So you have this really interesting parallel between the ones that should be clear that don't seem to have any they're They're getting it all wrong.
[00:50:51] Let's go and let's go and get stoned together with Jesus.
[00:50:54] And then you have Martha with this. You're the Messiah, the son of God. I knew that resurrection is coming right. It's a really interesting little contrast to not lose, particularly when Christian has. Has been so silencing.
[00:51:06] of women so many occasions that John's gospel gives Martha such a prime spotlight position to allow her to be the mechanism to let Jesus rollout this final.
[00:51:20] I am statement that I am the resurrection and the life.
[00:51:23] John: And, and isn't it beautiful that Martha does a sort of a very Johanna and thing then at that point. So, after the confession, what does she do? She goes and gets Mary. So for some reason, Mary, isn't the word that Jesus is there? I, I think, our listeners may be aware that. Laura, large groups of people here morning.
[00:51:41] Mary and Martha are probably not together when Jesus, when it's heard that Jesus is on the edge of the village, Martha gets up and goes, and then she has this incredible encounter with Jesus, something there's almost an echo for me of the, of the woman of Samaria. There's something going off inside Martha, where she goes, I need to get married.
[00:52:01] I need to go and bring her here right now. And then she goes, On calls Mary and, and says, the teachers ask if, what's really interesting, of course, is that explicitly, there's nothing in the text to say that teases deadass for Mary, but Martha goes back and says, right, the teachers here he's, he's asking for you.
[00:52:19] And then of course I love, I love the little nuance of verse 29 at Mary got up quickly. And, and went there. So, when w when she heard that Jesus was calling her, she went for it. So, so it seems to imply that Mary didn't know that Jesus was there. Martha goes, but then there's a beautiful Johanna and thing there that, that this you, you often get people meeting Jesus in John's gospel and then going and getting someone and bringing them to meet Jesus, the sort of common CE stuff, which is a lovely echo of that literal.
[00:52:51] But, but this common Cece of an Martha goes and says, Mary is here. Come, come, come to Jesus. No comments. Now those words aren't explicitly used, but I think that's a, that's a gorgeous Johanna. And again, as follows that repeat ideas we're seeing right from the beginning of the gospel of common, see, come and see, come and see, come and see.
[00:53:12] Absolutely. I love that. And so Martha, isn't just confessing that he's the Christ that she's now almost forgive me listeners for stretching this too far, but. Operating evangelistically she's she's goals from Jesus to get someone, to bring them to Jesus. And you get this gorgeous, then almost an echo of the first conversation when Martha speaks to Jesus as well.
[00:53:38] David: And so let's pause that there.
[00:53:40] John, and we'll be back in a couple of days to really jump from where it's like, it's like one of those Netflix series where it's like.
[00:53:48] oh no, we're not, We're not, we're not got time to finish it just yet, but we're going to jump from the arrival of Mary then into the gathering, the crowd and the Moravian at the tomb where Lazarus is lying.
[00:54:04] So we'll be back in a couple of days. Unless you're listening to this and it's not live in which point you can just start, listen to the Next episode. now.
[00:54:13] Outro: So that is it for today. The second part will release on Thursday. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something we said during this episode, then reached out to us on podcast@twotexts.com. Or by liking and following the two tax podcast on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube.
[00:54:36] Don't forget that you can listen to all of our podcasts@wwwdottwotax.com or wherever you get podcasts from. But that is it for part one. And we're back on Thursday with part two. So until then, Goodbye.