Lost and Found | Parables 7

In which John and David discuss a meal and the first two parables in Luke 15 about lost things. These are parables that ordinarily get left for the children, but if we slow down and pay attention they may have something to say to the rest of us.

• Click Here to read the text from Luke 15:1-10
• Click Here to learn more about Bailey's Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes that John and David mention in this episode

Episode 7 of the Two Texts Podcast | Parables of Jesus Series 7

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Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Chapters

• 4:54 Luke 15:1-2
• 21:13 Luke 15:3-10

Transcript

David Harvey  0:01  
Hi there. I'm David Harvey. I'm here with John Andrews. And this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries here every two weeks talking about two different texts from the Bible. This, however, is our one. And so we're bringing you a daily episode of the two of us talking about the parables of Jesus. This is Episode Seven, gets called, Lost and Found. 

Well, hello, John. I don't know about you. But I think the parables we're going to talk about today are possibly up there, with the most well known of all of Jesus's parables. And would you think they're probably the most well known? Three? If you just say to people parable of Jesus, what comes to mind?

John Andrews   0:55  
Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Having been raised in a church sort of setting and gone to Sunday school from I was knee high to some very small things. I, you know, these were stories that were repeated over and over again, I knew these stories before I knew where they were. And I knew these stories before, I knew, in some ways, what Jesus maybe really meant by them. Because they're so simple. I think everybody associates with losing something, and the franticness, of trying to find something that you really want to find, and you really don't want to remain lost. But then, of course, the the power of, of the building of these stories, you know, it starts with shapes, into coins and in and in the songs and it's just, it's a masterful piece of

David Harvey  1:45  
oratory and narrative from Jesus as He builds the suspense over the length of the chapter. It's just just breathtaking stuff. Yeah, the whole I think, in Luke 15, is telling over the whole, losing one in 100, and then losing one in 10. And then losing one of two, it's really quite a, it's quite a thing. But I've liked you, john. I mean, I have memories of returning early, early memories of returning home from Sunday school with cotton wool, and matchsticks stuck on bits of paper and sheep scents. And I'd be curious to know if any child gets through a year of children's church without doing the lost sheep. Similarly to I'm not sure any adult gets through a year of church without hearing the prodigal son. It's like the annual rewritings that we need to come back around to.

John Andrews   2:33  
And I think it shows doesn't it show the power of how Jesus communicates, even in the context of a first century world, he uses stories that are so simple, yet evocative and empathetic in nature that we we all know, virtually everybody identifies with one or all of these three, we feel it, we lean into it, even if you've never seen a sheep are, you know, you don't have children, whatever, you lean into the drama of the story. And we've all been in those situations, where either we felt lost for whatever reason, one reason or another, or, or we have frantically searched for something that is lost. And, and of course, there will be people listening to us right now. And they will be experiencing something of that drama in their world in their journey. And in their experience. And the fact we're still talking about these simple stories 2000 years later, and still get a kick out of it. And they still got mileage shows how powerfully simple and dramatically glorious these parables actually are, and, and still worth revisiting today. And

David Harvey  3:48  
that's for me what I wanted to show, we're going to deal with Luke 15 over over two episodes. And so today, we're gonna look at the first two, you know, the last sheep in the last coin, and even by doing that, um, I think we're making a statement that one of the things with these three parables, I think is we have divided them if you're in a church background, I think it's unlikely you've made it through the year without hearing somebody reference the last son's story, but the lost sheep in the last coin, we've almost turned them over into children's church to say, well, these are a little too simple for us. And so there's a little bit of me wants to recover those two parables. And say, actually, there's some really big stuff to think about here. You know, but but even in that, you know, Luke in his genius of storytelling of of how he, you know, arcs together these historical, you know, gatherings of Jesus. I think it's even worth rolling. But you can, you know, you if you look up a concordance or, you know, do a search, where is the parable of the lost sheep start, you get Luke 15 verse three, but just before we read that, I want to start at Luke 15 verse one, because I think this is really important. We're gonna run Remember this start for two episodes where we're Luke just painted this know all the tax collectors and sinners. We're coming near to listen to him. I just I love this john right from the start and you you know you're the you're the the expert when it when it comes to Luke between the two of us but but i just i there's almost I find with Luke and almost Monty Pythonesque sort of feel sometimes, oh, look, it's tax collectors and sinners, as if, as if this was two jobs, right? Like you're coming to tax collectors, and never the sinners. What's the going rate for a sinner these days? But I mean, my thinking on this, john is that Luke is almost reflect he's doing a very clever piece of reflecting almost how the audience were thinking, you know, that they're just, you know, look at Jesus, you know, and sure enough, first too, and the Pharisees and the scribes, you know, we've got the kind of religious elites were grumbling, saying, This fellow welcome sinners and eats with them. You know, like, like, quite brilliant, sort of starts, because because this to me becomes part of the key of the why, why is Jesus now gonna roll off these three? kind of almost quick succession machine gun leg parables, sir. There's a backstory there, right?

John Andrews   6:22  
There is absolutely and actually, the way we did with when we looked at some of our parables in Mark chapter four, and lent into Matthew 13, and even dipped into Luke 13. And some of the stuff we've done already, if you're prepared to step back from Luke 15, and see the trajectory of 15. From 14, there is a dramatic juxtaposition at the beginning of 15. And the beginning of 14, so beginning of Luke 14, it says, there's one Sabbath when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent pharmacy, he was being carefully watched there in front of him was a man suffering from we would sometimes translate dropsy, and may translation, abnormal swelling of his body, no, no, watch this. This is just absolutely glorious. So in chapter 14, verse one, Jesus is at the host of a prominent pharmacy, the religious community are at the center on the man with this abnormal swelling or drops, he is on the fringe, and Jesus calls the man with the sickness into the center and ministers to him. There's a whole controversy about ministry on the Sabbath, then Jesus launches into a parable about the banquet. And then the parable of the banquet later in chapter 14, totally

David Harvey  7:37  
have to talk about as well and

John Andrews   7:39  
we will have to cover but but in its context of the Lucan flow, the parable of the bank with essentially the people who are invaded, don't go, and the people who weren't invaded, get invaded. And Jesus concludes by saying, I tell you, verse 24, Luke 14, not one of those men who were invaded will get to tears My bank, but no, you're holding that thought. And then suddenly, we're in the chapter 15. on what's happening, Jesus is at the center, it says they're gathering around him, and he welcomed them. So here's my suggestion. And I hope, I hope our listeners will just will just give me a bit of latitude here. My suggestion is that Jesus is throwing the dinner party here. I think this is Jesus throwing the party, and they are gathering to him, and he welcomes them see him. In fact, it's the same word used here for welcoming them that Jesus uses when he feeds the 5000. In Luke chapter nine, it says, and he welcomed them, and taught them the kingdom. So in other words, the idea they are coming to him, and he is welcoming them. And then you look at chapter 15. And what have you got, you've got the centers at the center, and the religious community on the fringe, the religious computer looking and go on, what's he doing? So, so chapter 14, religious at the center, the center is on the fringe, Jesus then calls him in, and then the banquet parable, and then he throws his own dinner party, and what does he do? He has the centers at the center, and the religious community on the fringe. And of course, I think that sets up this dramatic moment. With then, in response to their criticism, Jesus launches into these three dynamically. Controversial yet on the surface of it quite simple parables, but but the punchline at the end is, is absolutely off the scale, in terms of drama. And, and we see the drama of the three stories once we understand the trajectory to getting here. So if you include 14 into the story, then actually this is quite a dramatic juxtaposition. And the parables about to be taught are a reflection of that tension. And that drama culminating in the two sons drama Which of course might be leaning into the audience of which Jesus is speaking to.

David Harvey  10:04  
I love it, john, I love that. I mean, it's interesting. I mean, the language is there for you just to come along and support. I mean, we've not even got to the parable yet. And I'm already thinking, you know what, we should press pause and I should go and just quickly write this down turn this into a sermon. So so maybe our listeners want to do the same thing but you know, the interestingly that they approach deco my the the Greek word that theirs is translated welcomes, he welcomes sinners. You when you see that appear in Hebrews, it definitely has a sense of to entertain as a guest or something like that. So, so you're totally like, from the grammar. It's possible. And yeah, I love I love the idea of Jesus as the party who sets a party I would want to go to absolutely, although war spoiler alert for tomorrow, perhaps. Just be careful. Because some maybe you wouldn't know sometimes. Sometimes it's the it's those of us who would consider ourselves you know, religiously in the right place that found Jesus offensive, right. So, sure, let me let me let me see. Let me guard my heart before we get to these parables that I too can be, you know, the grumbly one and

John Andrews   11:15  
well it's it's right and I think that's why you're absolutely right that we mustn't just rush to the stories we've we've tried to say that over and over again in our treatment of parables up to this point. If you vacuum as these statements, they are more troublesome sometimes then even maybe they need to be but also I think we are in danger of losing a new ones and at home within the story. That is really powerful. And when when we lean into these next three stories together, having set the scene that you set, it is a dramatic moment. I mean, this is a gasp nudge nudge wink wink elbowing each other did he did he just say that. And you've got you've got a level of discomfort growing through the three stories. He's, he leads them in gently, but he is pushing them towards a dramatic climax.

David Harvey  12:15  
Also, I just want to say early on, here's here's the word that Luke does this thing, right? There's this word do it da gungans on right. My Greek Greek pronunciation is often appalling from having learned to read it, but never learned to speak it right? A classic New Testament scholar problem do go guns on is a word that only appears in Luke. But it appears here in this story, when it's translated grumbling, right. And it appears it's the same thing that people do when Jesus decides to go to Zach, he sees house. What's fascinating, and it doesn't appear in any of any of the other gospels, the words are slightly unusual word. It's not the kind of natural Greek word you'd use to just talk about grumbling. Interestingly, however, in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which is what Luke seems to be using, we know, Luke's background is Greek, he's not schooled in the Hebrew text, as far as we can tell, he always quotes, you know, and engages with, you know, with Greek translations, which will, which will be 100% common is nothing unusual about that, at all, Paul does exactly the same thing. But da gungans on is what the people do to Moses, when they first find themselves in a bit of difficulty in the, in the journey towards the promised land. And, and so it's really fascinating that Luke chooses this unusual word, and you can't help but think he's drawing a parallel. God's trying to do something new. I'm trying to get you across this desert to a promised land. And we're like, oh, it's, it's not right. We're sure back in Egypt, we wish we had, it was better when we were in slavery than where we are now. And then I mean, again, I there's always I don't want to push this and say, Go bank your house on this. But you've got choice of a word that doesn't appear elsewhere has this resonance to the Old Testament. So we see the new test writers doing this sort of thing all the time, you know, and then he and he uses this word, and it's almost like, and here we have the same story. Again, God's breaking in and trying to do something new, and the people are going not quite how we wanted it, not what we liked. We're uncomfortable with this. I really love that potential resonance.

John Andrews   14:27  
Beautiful, and I think I think it absolutely fits with Dr. Luke. I think he he doesn't seem to use words randomly. He tells us at the beginning of his gospel, this is a an orderly account. I've talked to the the eyewitnesses and what I'm setting before you, he's almost hinting some bits have been missed, and I filled in the gaps for you. And there's a sense in which he's approaching us with faith but but there's a forensic nature to what he's doing and therefore If he's deliberately including words that have a nuance and in fact, as we get into the parable of the last things, we see Torah nuances constantly in references throughout this text, that Luke, a Gentile seems to really understand the heartbreak context of the faith that will go beyond that boundary and into a Gentile world into a Hellenistic world. And I think, you know, for our listeners who want to dig a bit further, I think he represents an amazing bridge between the world that Jesus was saturated in a Hebrew world, in a hellenized Roman context. But but the words of Jesus are traveling to a non Hebrew context. And therefore Luke is helping us with that trajectories helping us negotiate, that we can't let go of our Hebraic roots ever, ever. But actually, we live in a hellenized. World, a, a world that doesn't understand any of that, and therefore we're having to make those bridges into our world all the time. And Luke says, so I think Luke's is sort of a model of that. I think he's a Gentile model of that idea, helping us negotiate those beautiful tanach rooted thoughts into the New Testament through Jesus.

David Harvey  16:21  
And of course, I would say just, I think it's maybe worth saying this, because we're spending a lot of time in Luke, I, you know, I would say he had the master teacher, right. So we have this gospel, you know, dense, because maybe not all of our listeners are, you know, completely aware of this. And there's no shame in not being but so you have this gospel we call Luke, which is anonymous, actually, there's no, there's no author scribed in it. And then we have this follow up document called x, which also is anonymous, the only thing is, is just at a certain point in the in the story of x, and it's talking about Paul, you know, the great missionary, the first kind of real, you know, drives the gospel into the hellenized, Greek speaking world. He gets accompanied by this doctor called Luke. And as this doctor called Luke joins the story, the only the thing that we notice is, as readers of Luke is, all of a sudden, the narrative seems to shift from a second person observing what's happening, to know the stories become we stories. And so as Luke joins the story, the whole narrative becomes a first person account of, of the account, right? So then what we've done, as Bible scholars is worked out though this, this Luke character seems to be the narrator. So so what we're getting is, is now the ability to work backwards and say, you know, this character, Luke is the character that has written both Luke and also act and, and so you know, and it's, it's there for us to work with. But of course, this is what I find myself thinking, if you take that narrative, as I do, as as trustworthy, that means that this Greek doctor is spending a lot of time walking the roads, sitting in the books with Paul, and, and doing and what the impression we get from Paul is, you know, he can talk a bit. And when he does talk, he likes to talk about scripture, you know, so you kind of feel that Luke's found himself, whether on purpose or not, just in front rule for constant. You know, what we know, like, when you look at Romans, For example, Paul's preferred method of teaching seems to have been, let's look at this text in the Old Testament, and I'm not sure how that's about Jesus. Now, let's look at this other test in the Old Testament. I'm not sure how that's about Jesus as well. Then Jesus did this. And that changes how we perceive this bit of the Old Testament, but we still read it like so for Luke to be able to go grumbles like Old Testament grumbles like in the ministry of Jesus. I think that's just, I'm filling in huge spaces here, right? Forgive me. But there's a level of which if you take the historical narrative, this, the author of these documents was a front roll listener to the great apostle who was doing this sort of thing all the time. For me, it just makes it seem a little less Farfetch then to believe that Luke kind of started doing this himself, you know, that, Oh, this is how you do it. You know, he comes to faith. I assume he comes to faith through Paul's ministry. I mean, would that be your impression? Yeah.

John Andrews   19:27  
He certainly is certainly a first wave of that of that Gentile community. He seems to be in really early. And, and you know, if you if you think about Luke and the gospel, he writes under sources he may have leaned into, in order to write that gospel, then clearly, he's in early so you know, you know, his birth narrative is undoubtedly Mary. I mean, Mary is totally reading that for him. She's he's recounting things that only a woman would remember and only a woman would would demon truly Important in the context of all you need this detail. And so there's no doubt if that's the case, he's he's, he's a convert to Jesus early in this piece, and seems to grab the connection between what we call the Old Testament and the writing of the New Testament. magnificently Eazy E is a is a, of course, he's the only gentle contributor, really, to the New Testament. So it is

David Harvey  20:26  
quite a big one. I think. I think the most words in the New Testament

John Andrews   20:31  
28% yet, yeah. 28%, which is bigger than Paul. Paul is about 24%. So, so word count. Dr. Luke's up there, he could do a whole, you know, after dinner speech to her on his own.

David Harvey  20:45  
Luke, you get to write a little bit of the New Testament for Gentiles. Okay, well, I'm taking my chance.

John Andrews   20:50  
Absolutely. He grabs it seriously.

David Harvey  20:52  
And of course, worth pointing out again, you know, that, that Luke, although earlier, the third book in your New Testament, actually written after all of Paul's letters, so So even though he's telling these stories, obviously, he's writing retrospectively on this, so will have had the experience and time to learn all this stuff. But anyway, john, we're only two verses in, and we're having fun. So let's then so we've set that scene. So let's, and hopefully even just in talking about that there's big importance going on here. The context is driving what Jesus is about to tell us a story. So do you want to do you want to jump us through? Let we'll do parable one and two, and then we'll come back to three tomorrow. Okay, so yeah, Luke 15, verse three.

John Andrews   21:42  
And it says, Then, so you know, this man welcome sinners and eats with them. Then Jesus told them this parable, suppose one of you has 100 sheep, and loses one of them? Doesn't he leave the 99 in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it. And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, rejoice with me. I have found my lost sheep. I tell you that in the same way, there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents, and over 99 righteous persons who do not need to repent. Or suppose a woman, as 20 attend silver coins and losers, what doesn't she laid a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. When she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says rejoice with me. I have found my last coin. In the same way, I tell you there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

David Harvey  22:45  
I just love these parables. They're phenomenal. And, and so I'm gonna jump straight in john. Suppose you have 100 sheep. So this again, remember the context, the Pharisees and the scribes. So, in western Christendom, we like the shepherd, right? Because Jesus is the good shepherd, and the Lord is my shepherd. And this obscures something for us that at the time of Jesus, you read this in the writings of phylo, you know, contemporary writer with the New Testament, shepherds were not socially acceptable jobs, because sheep were kinda, although essential to the economy of Israel. It wasn't it was low, shameful work almost being a shepherd, said Jesus. Imagine, imagine you're at dinner with the queen, right? And you can, and you say, hi. So imagine you were a garbage truck driver.

Like, you know, no, no offense to garbage truck drivers and horses, important work, but the, you know, the, you get that context that suppose you had 100 sheep, none of the Pharisees have sheep. Like, that's your goodness, I'm not gonna do a job like that. So so there's a brilliant little twist right at the very start that Jesus just just just tweaks tweaks in there. And I even find myself wondering a little bit about or what about a woman that has 10 silver coins, as, again, you know, you're just hearing nuances here. But you know, where's her husband in a highly patriarchal society, it'd be rare. And again, I'm not discussing the ethics of that I, you know, but in that culture, home, a woman wouldn't normally have the autonomy to have her own money unless she didn't have a husband. So so let's just push it the nuance when I read this, I would assume that she's a widow of some sort, or, or, you know, a single lady of some sort, and that's just but probably probably a widow. So shepherds outcasts a widow, somebody who is regularly in the Old Testament narrative forgotten about and Jesus is constantly constantly driving to show in his ministry, you never do this. So so there's even just a potential nuance in the story right from the start that the two characters that Jesus picks are slightly on the outside,

John Andrews   25:18  
you're completely and I think it fits totally with the nuance of Luke's Gospel, I think it is, you know, there's almost universal acceptance of people who are smarter than me on this stuff that Luke has a passion for the margins, the groups of people who have been marginalized, not just by the routine issues of human brokenness, you know, because every society has margins, whether it's a religious oriented society or not. But you've got margins in the world of Jesus who find themselves on the margins, not just because of the normal issues, if I can use that language, but because some of those normal issues are then are energized by theological belief systems that actually say, well, you actually deserve to be on the margin you that you're there, because God doesn't like you as much as he likes last night. I know, I'm being very simplistic there. But that is a definite trajectory Jesus is dealing with, of course, in the Gospel of Luke shepherds are the amongst those who get to hear the message of his birth right at the beginning.

David Harvey  26:26  
He's King is born, Who should we tell? Well, let's go tells him Shepherd Shepherd, yes, it makes sense. It does

John Andrews   26:31  
not make sense. It does not make sense at any level at any level. And of course, if you add to that, in the early opening paragraphs of Luke's Gospel, women are prominent. So a woman is telling the story, Elizabeth is held up as prominent, Mary is prominent, we've got honor, the prophet tests, go on for it in the temple along with Simeon and Dr. Luke's often doing this, he's put in a woman beside a man, often in his gospel. So every time you see a man held up, there's sort of a woman lurking somewhere and the story. And so exactly the same pattern here. But of course, remember, in its context, he's speaking to a group of sinners who've gathered around him that he's welcomed. There's no other religious community sort of looking in from the fringes. And so he starts to relatively simple and almost seemingly, like not very offensive parables, with two heroes of the story that are already disadvantaged, they're on the fringes of the world of Jesus, he's deliberately picking on examples that will make his audience both pick up their ears and notice and also get a bit uncomfortable with where he's going. And the religious community of the day of Jesus probably would never have used the woman as a hero as a virtue. Often, she would have been maybe held up as an example of something not so good. And yet Jesus is flipping that on its head to position this idea of lostness Yeah,

David Harvey  28:05  
yeah, no, I, I love that. And, and, and so you've got these two parables, then the lost sheep last coin. So let's, let's jump into the first one. Suppose you have 100 sheep, and you lose one would the shepherd not go find it? So I always feel like the mass of this is fantastic. If you know anything about sheep, if you have 100 sheep, and you lose one, and therefore you leave the 99 and go after the lost sheep and find it. How many sheep Do you now have? And I think the answer is one. You know, and Jesus makes this point elsewhere, you know, sheep are notorious for getting lost and getting themselves into trouble. And so this is brilliant sense that once you get over the initial Pharisees going, Well, no, I would not have sheep. Right. So so like, you know, you can't talk to me about this, Jesus, you then got this sense that this Shepherd is clearly mad, you know, like, you have an attrition rate when it comes to sheep, right, you you lose sheep, it's just kind of what happens and and and here you have this completely upside down pneus of the kingdom now coming in right at the very start, that that the the lost sheep is profoundly important to this to this good shepherd.

John Andrews   29:25  
Absolutely. I think I think it really stands out. And of course, we, we read into it that the other 99 shape, you know, we're well looked after and, and taken care of, but of course, the the, the implication of the text is, he just leaves them. Yoast assumes well, that they'll be okay. But again, it points to the fact that okay, whatever you think of his math, whatever you think of his methods, what you cannot deny is this Shepherd believes this individual sheep to be so valuable. That he is willing to risk so much to find the sheep. And to non owners that doesn't Jesus lean into that when he refers to himself as the Good Shepherd, you know, he says, the difference between the good shepherd and the harlene is apparently Nazi some trouble in your run for it, because because they're not his sheep. But the good shepherd will lay down his life for the sheep. Why? Because he owns them, because he's personally invested into them. So Jesus is, is maybe nudging at the religious community that sees the people as on the margins until they make the turn, where as Jesus is actually saying, No, these people are valuable, wherever they are. They're even valuable in their lostness there, that they're not more valuable when they get found. They're supremely valuable, and they're lostness. And that's why we're searching after them. The shepherd, the shepherd is searching after a sheep because it's valuable in its loss. This hasn't lost its value. It's just lost its place so that you do get

David Harvey  31:03  
the sense that Jesus is, is digging into this sort of bigger question of Israel. And and that's what takes me back to wondering whether this whole they were grumbling thing is intentional, Luke, because at some level, Jesus is painting this ministry, and Luke has definitely pointed us towards this, of Israel's ministry to be a light to the world light to the Gentiles. And so, but the problem what happens is no, but we are God's people. And, and those people over there are not God's people. And and here just using your language, there's a sense of well, no, they've not lost any of their value simply by being lost. And like, instantly, the parable starts getting you under the ribs. I think it doesn't it because it starts, it says, Well, wait a minute, how are you perceiving the last one? And we have, I think, a lot of church history of this tendency to perceive the phone as superior to the loss, for sure.

John Andrews   32:07  
Totally, I absolutely agree. And for me, I don't know. I mean, you could run lots of rabbits on this and lots of trails. But for me, you know, I can't help read parables like these and think of something like Jonah, where Joe is sent to a nation to a city, that would be viewed as absolutely the antithesis of everything he believes righteousness is. And yet, the Lord makes a way for a city to find restoration through repentance. And Jonah is furious with this because he sees no value in the lostness of these people, he sees no value in them as humans, he would rather God destroy them. And he's, he's really upset with the fact that God doesn't destroy them. And he's more upset over a plant. He didn't sow and didn't tanned and didn't look after the grows up and withers and dies that God actually give them in the first place. And yes, it's one of the only books in the in the Tanakh. That finishes with a question. Yes, it's a dramatic question. And I think Jesus is asking questions. He's, he's saying, and people in the audience may go, Why on earth would you leave 99? For one? Well, because the one is valuable, the one is important, there's no less value in that one. It's just lost. And of course, I think that has bearing on his immediate audience. And I think it has bearing on the trajectory of God's flock itself, Israel, and I think there's whole layers of nuance within the magnificence of the lostness and the value of the lostness of that person.

David Harvey  33:53  
And so just pushing on then to that sense of this last and phonus like I love the and I'm wondering what kind of color you see like just in this when he is found it, he lays it on his shoulders and rejoices like like that, that that scenes seems to like just have so much color to about how Jesus imagines this process. I don't I'm not articulating that. Well, john, but what are you what do you feel in in that?

John Andrews   34:27  
Yeah, well, I think what what you notice is missing is that he doesn't school the sheep, huh? You know what I mean? You stupid sheep. Where have you been in whack it over the head and you know, don't do that again. And you know, f if the shepherd was an Irishman, they probably would have put a noose around the poor sheep's neck and dragged it home, you know what I mean? So, but but what you get the response to finding the last thing is tender. Yes. It's compassionate. It's, it's the nuances we're about to see in another part. In the CM trilogy, where we're a father has every right to be angry at a strain son, but he he isn't. He's filled with compassion. He's tender. He's, he's generous. And the actions of this shepherd who finds the sheep is just over well mean, tenderness and compassion. And I think it's the absence of the anger, the absence of the scolding, that really, you know, you stupid sheep, no, no, here, you're not even going to walk home, I'll carry you home. I mean, it's just incredible. And like, I've been up close and personal, the real sheep, I mean, are not easy things to sort of lug around and carry. So. So the shepherd is even putting himself physically out in order to carry this thing home, because he wants to ensure it understands it belongs to

David Harvey  35:53  
the agency, or lack of agency of the sheep is quite interesting, you know, so there's an unsaid question, does the sheep want to be found? Well, actually, that that's irrelevant. It's a sheep, right? And does the sheep want to be found? No, Jesus is going to find it. Now. This, let me just push this to a theme that I think you see strongly in Luke. And I feel it's very Paul line as well. Because the word appears later on. The word repentance appears in both of these parables. And I think there's a tendency within Christian tradition to see repentance as a really active agent in the whole process of salvation, right? Do you really want this? Do you really want this? You know, and there's a level in which here, I think it's, it scrapes at a point that that Luke, I think Luke really wants to drive home, that when you eventually get round, we're going to dig into this more tomorrow, but I can't help but highlight it, when you eventually get round to repenting, and let's just metanoia the Greek word literally just turning around changing your, your perspective, when you eventually get to repenting. It turns out, you're already found, you know, so we have a tendency of seeing repentance as activating the salvation. But actually, you know, you I think of Paul in Philippians, three, I press on to take hold of Christ, who had already taken hold of me, you know, so like, does the sheet want to come home or not tough the shepherds found him. shepherds put him on his shoulder. And and so we've got to be careful, I think of of how we try to give ourselves the power of salvation, almost, you know, Oh, yes. But I chose this, you know, I made this decision. And there's almost a level in this for the first two parables that Jesus is sort of saying, No, I was the one doing the looking. I was the one doing the chasing,

John Andrews   37:57  
I think I was beautiful. And I think it does lean into something we started with, I think it leans into the fact that Jesus has thrown a dinner party.

David Harvey  38:05  
So I invited these people yeah, I

John Andrews   38:06  
invited people there on my list, which then links back into the banquet parable, you know, so I it to me, it's genius. To me, I mean, I literally my goose pimples, get goose pimples, just thinking about the intentionality of Jesus, that he has told His disciples that they right, we need some this, we need this, make sure you buy some olives, get some wine, we'll prep the room. And we'll get these boys. And so it would have cost Jesus money, time, effort and investment to get a bunch of sinners in the room. But the fact that then he talks it the emphasis is on their phonus before they repent. The implication is actually sinners won't get to repent unless, unless we go and find them. Standard lossless, that it's not something they're gonna do, naturally or easily. They'll do it because someone has found that them and loved on them. And it's that sort of, you know, we've talked, people have talked before about belonging before believing type idea to sense that, that lostness in Jesus wasn't in the New Testament wasn't just the idea, certainly in Jesus world wasn't just the idea of, I'm a sinner loss, but I'm excluded from the community lost, I'm marginalized, lost, I'm no longer part of this, of this group lost. And you see Jesus over and over again, drawing people back to community that they were once excluded from. And I think that's part of the phonus in this which we sometimes miss in our, you know, 2000 years later, evangelical Christianity, but I think community, finding a community of love and grace is as much about being phoned and a route to repentance as as is the sort of traditional preaching of a message of repentance.

David Harvey  39:52  
A finding is passive. I quite like that idea that you know that you are being found rallying for you know, You know, I was lost. And now I'm found, you know, the the great hymn says, but we do like to think that we were involved in the finding, you know, but then there's a question, did the sheep want to be fun? So we've asked that question, and it's ridiculous at some level to ask you over sheep, but the parable has depth. There's also then the question, which I think is really important. Did the sheep want to be lost? You know, and actually, you know, there's a, there's a question for me that that kind of just brings up Stark, because often we talk and the narrative in church history around lostness has assumed intentionality, you know, the, you know, these, you know, these people have rejected the kingdom of God, this, somebody has walked away from Jesus, you know, well, how did they, you know, did the sheep want to be lost? And how did the sheep get lost? And I kind of find myself thinking, well, that's irrelevant. I was reading something just the other day there that pointed out, that every poor person you meet in the stories of Jesus doesn't appear to have got poor by their own fault. Do you know, that, you know, they find themselves outcast in society? You know, you take like the, you know, the the woman who is suffering from a hemorrhage, you know, you know, the point is made, you know, she's she got poor, because she spent all her money trying to get well, and nobody could help her, you know, so there's this sense of the gospel seem to be aware of something in society that I think our privilege sometimes blinds us to, that people don't intentionally get themselves into trouble, you know, sure, you know, and so, so the question is ludicrous. How did the sheep get lost? There's a level of which, well, it's a sheep, they get lost. They just get busy doing what they're doing, and find themselves all of a sudden loss. How could any of us get lost? You know, it's, you know, if you if you push the metaphor, you know, many of us have got a story that even as grown adults can bring chills to us of, you know, just just letting go of your parents hand in the supermarket for a moment, and all of a sudden, they're not there and the lostness happened in a brief moment, and then it starts to spiral, you know, how did it How does that happen? Nobody sets out to go, I'm just going to get as much debt as I can. Nobody, you know, how did addictions happen? Nobody sets out to do these things. How did how does any loss in this happen, you know, and so the so I love the fact that Jesus doesn't give us a story as to how the sheep got lost. It just, you know, had no effect. Actually, let's push it a little bit more, the losing, which one of you having 100 sheep and losing one of them? Right? Who actually does the losing? It's the shepherd that does the losing. So we talk about the lost sheep. That's the story title. Of course, that's not in the Bible. That's just our title for it. But actually, the story perhaps is the shepherd who lost the sheep. The responsibility is actually on this shepherd. And I can't help but roll that back into verse one into Jesus, what you hang around with all these with all these sinners and tax collectors, you know, is Jesus sort of almost implying? Well, wait a minute, you're the shepherds, right. You Pharisees, you're the shepherds. And you're losing sheep here? No, it's not the sheep's fault. I don't want to talk about that, you know, because the active character is the one who does the finding. I mean, where do you go with that, john?

John Andrews   43:35  
Oh, well, I think you do get that sense of when Jesus gets into some really robust conversations with the religious community in Luke, the six walls to the Pharisees is in a private meal context, which is very kind of them. Because I think he's trying I think he's trying as much to find the Pharisees as he is

David Harvey  43:55  
yet. 100%.

John Andrews   43:56  
And we'll, we'll lean into that tomorrow, maybe but, but in Matthew, the seven was a wee bit more public, a wee bit more brutal. But actually, one of the things they're being criticized for often is not helping the people. To find God, you put burdens on your back, but don't lift a finger to bear you strain it nuts and swallow camels, you go across the earth and make a disciple of someone but you make them a disciple twice as much as hell as you. You know, it's really strong language. And I think it's not

David Harvey  44:25  
how you win friends.

John Andrews   44:27  
And it is lean in it. And of course, if you push back to some of the Tanakh references to shepherd, one of the most famous Ezekiel 34 I mean, you've got you've got the Lord Himself saying to his, the leadership of his people, he's saying because you will not Shepherd them because you are not shepherding them, I will be their shepherd. I will step in and take care of them. The amount of times God says in the text of Exodus sorry, zekiel 34. I will is staggering He steps in and he says, Okay, I'm going to step up and be their shepherd. And of course, if we're seeing this conversation in a wider context, then then there is perhaps a criticism of those who have been charged with shepherding the last. And they have allowed them to be marginalized. In fact, they have even encouraged the marginalization. They have supported the marginalization. And they are no criticizing Jesus, for reversing that marginalization. And trying to climb over the fence and find that one bleating sheep on its own

David Harvey  45:35  
me Interesting, isn't it that nobody, really people are marginalized. They don't marginalize themselves, you know. So if you're on the outskirts, someone has put you there. You know, you've been you, you know, and it might be intentionally, you know, or it might be the system, you know, that you're a tax collector, you're out in the outskirts, you're a sinner, you're impure, you're unclean. You know, you're, you know, you're a woman in Luke's context, you know, there's, there's, there's all these sorts of things that you're from the wrong part of town, you're a Gentile, but but somebody in one position has to draw that line, and no, you know, walk up to you and put the paint along the front of your feet rather than behind your feet, you know, you're outside, not inside. So, again, there's a sense, and I think this really drives if this if this point, you know, that we're making is there to be made, which I think it is. So if marginalization is something that happens. So you know, the prophetic critique is that Israel, you have done this, you know, this is what you've done that, you know, you were called to be light to the nations. But instead, you've you know, you've drawn lines in your own camp and decided to worry about that. The second parable now really pulls that up, because it's an inanimate object. Now, it's a coin. So you if it sounded ridiculous for me to ask the question, how did the sheep get lost? Well, how does a coin get lost? Well, the coin can't get lost. Someone has to physically misplace it. You know, do you think you get where we're in residency? You almost get Jesus just cranks it up a little bit further again, and go okay. What about if there's, no, nobody's going to come back and go that stupid coin? That's what coins do, isn't it? They're just always getting lost? No, somebody had to be careless. You know, somebody had to be careless for the coin to get lost, you know, and so that you can't help but scribes and Pharisees are the target audience of this parable. You know, somebody had to get careless with Torah. That because you've just said, goodness, why are you eating with tax collectors and sinners? And I feel like Jesus is saying, Well, what about the whole scriptures? Like the answer is there for you in the scriptures that you are the experts in? as to why I should be doing this? But you've got careless with your reading. You got careless with your way of being? Yeah,

John Andrews   47:56  
yeah. Oh, totally. I love that. David. And I think, I think I mean, you've alluded to it already in terms of the case, Chapter 19, of Luke. And and you've got a dramatic moment there Where, where, where Jesus steps into a moment and calls someone invites himself invites himself audaciously barely refers to the fact that that you know, traveling through Jericho, Jesus probably would have already had an invite by the the sort of elders or the important people of the of the city, you know, on your way to Jerusalem, why don't you stop for dinner sort of thing. And so, him as he's on his way out of the city of Jericho when he made cigars, he must have already turned an invitation done. And then he finds this chief tax collector, and invites himself and of course, the climactic statement the high watermark in many ways. Some people believe of Luke's Gospel is founded the climax of that story for the Son of Man came to seek and save that which was lost that that which has been marginalized that which has been deliberately unconsciously pushed out unsexy chaos. And some of the people of course, in this audience have experienced that they have deliberately someone to use your analogy has deliberately drawn a wait lane in front of them and said you cannot cross that line. You are a collaborator, you are with the enemy, you are filthy, you are dirty, you are unacceptable to God. And therefore you cannot and Jesus is in is in. Okay, that lines in the ground but Jesus steps over that line. And he's saying, Okay, we've got to go and find what we have lost. Find what a bad reading off tonight. has allowed us to tolerate lostness, which is not endorsed by the word of God.

David Harvey  50:07  
And you know, as is the case with all of these parables, the original context is Jesus talking to the religious experts about their reading of what we would call the Old Testament, the parable resonates today, though, with the religious experts, who are reading Christian scripture, and still doing the same thing, kiddo, this is, you know, this is not us having a go at Pharisees and scribes, you know, this is, you know, there's a reflect there's a self reflectiveness here, john isn't there that, that we can all do this, we can take these incredible stories of grace, and, and turn them into reasons to exclude people as well.

John Andrews   50:51  
And I think one of the things we've done and you and I've grown up in church and had the privilege and I counted a privilege of, of having that sort of upbringing and the way I had a personal experience of understanding Jesus was the Son of God at the age of eight, and that changed my life in the direction of my life. I'm so grateful for that. But if I learned anything growing up in church, we have reduced these magnificent parables, to sort of sermonette type things that are very singular and their focus so lostness we have simply defined as sinners out there outside the church outside of being good people, not like us. And of course, lostness can mean so many things, and and manifests itself in so many different ways. And I think in our zeal, over the years, the evangelical slash Pentecostal church, you know, in our zeal to, to absolutely understand there is a lostness in our world, we have a times fallen into the same sorts of traps, we have actually made it more difficult for people to be found and kind of say, we've made it sometimes more difficult for the righteous as it were the the save the phoned to go and find the loss, we've we've made it difficult for them to cross the lines that had been created. And I think that is deeply, deeply unhelpful, and and something that we have to constantly examine, in our own world that we are not subconsciously, or even consciously drawing lines that say to people, you cannot be at this dinner party, you cannot be at this dinner party. And I think what I love about the context of these parables is it is a dinner party, which in the context of Jesus world is deeply intimate. It speaks of solidarity, it speaks of identity, it speaks of acceptance, it didn't always speak of approval, but it does speak of acceptance, and therefore you've got Jesus opening up his dinner table to a whole bunch of people who would never get close to the dinner table of the religious community that are no criticizing him for having such an appalling dinner table. And yes, and I think that speaks to us all. I think it speaks to us all we must. We must guard our hearts against those sorts of

David Harvey  53:18  
things. For me, john would be I think that the Pharisees are not the bad guys. And so there's a tendency to read the gospel sometimes and see the Pharisees as the bad guys. But, but the debates with Jesus between the Pharisees are are an intra Jewish, intra religious experts debate, right. So I think, if you were to take the Pharisees from the New Testament, and translate them into contemporary church life, you know, they're the committed evangelicals of the world, right? You know, they're there. They're about, you know, Bible authority, you know, if it's in the text, it's in the text and, but somehow that pursuit of absolutely being true to the text, has somehow allowed them to almost lose the spirit of the text and the process, they've got the letter, you know, and you know, Paul talks about this doesn't have the letter, but not the spirit, you know? Well, that's, that's a cyclic problem. I think we're there right now as well, when we see you know, we see church debates about you know, about welcome. I made a comment just in social media just recently about welcome and you know, a few people reached out privately and said, Yeah, but what about and and there's always that, but what about question, When, when, when Jesus doesn't deal with or what a boat is? No, no, first. First, we have to welcome first yet there's no point discussing the finer points of what went wrong with the sheep to get lost until we find the sheep. Because right now it's being eaten by a wolf falling off a cliff, you know, freezing to death, you know, and we like almost leaning into the discussion about well, well, what what should we do in the sheep get home? But how do we deal with it? How will we and of course, again, that's going to be that's perhaps going to be answered tomorrow in the in the parable of the lost sons. But But this sense of we're wanting to do all of the theory as to how we should solve this problem. Well, it's almost as if Jesus is going well, first, why don't you invite them to dinner? First, why don't you eat with somebody that you think is a problem? And then we'll start to sort of, you know, think about that journey from there. And I can't help but think there's some irony in verse seven, when when he says, there's more joy, you know, over one sinner who repents the 99 righteous persons who need to know repentance, or are there 99 people who need no repentance like this? Does if repent means change your mind? Like, is a change your way of being turned around, you know? Is there 99 who don't need to change their thinking? You know, this seems like, you know, and again, big trailer for the lost son, parable, you know, maybe staying at home, doesn't mean you're fine. And,

John Andrews   56:17  
you know, Indeed, indeed, I think I think you're absolutely right. That this is about opening up our world opening up our hearts. To be part of the process that helps phoned people be lost by creating opportunities for connection, for conversation, for acceptance for genuinely loving people, and I think Jesus does that supremely brilliantly throughout his ministry, and gets heavily criticized for it. And, you know, he, he accepts invitations to dinner parties, he creates his own invitations. And he has his own dinner party. So he's, you know, one, one scholar said, in Luke's Gospel, Jesus got killed because of the way he ate. And he's always eating in the Gospel of Luke. And and there are some significant eating moments throughout the Gospels. Yeah.

David Harvey  57:21  
And he's eating with all the wrong people. Yeah,

John Andrews   57:23  
he's eating in controversial settings. But he's, he's comfortable in all of them. And he's seeking to create context for lostness. To find the possibility of being found. Yes. And I think that's our supreme responsibility from these beautiful parables

David Harvey  57:41  
and should just as we kind of land this conversation about these parables, just one other phrase, I just don't want to leave unsaid because it appears it appears identically in in both of the two parables, rejoice stories with with me, you know, and I, I just don't want to lose that moment of, of insight, you know, Jesus in the midst of this parable. And we always said this, again, parables are just designed to discourse, you, they're designed to knock you off track there, they're, you know, you've got to be careful of putting too much analysis into the physics of the parable. Because, you know, it might not all have the same significance of meaning, but that just can't help but think that this seeing of the shepherd and the seeing of the woman, Jesus for a moment, just kind of pulls the curtains back a little bit into the heart of God. You know, okay, you've got him as a finder, you've got him as a as a seeker and a Finder. But this narrative, it struck me when I was just preparing for our conversation today that I don't think I've ever heard. The Parable of the lost sheep. And the parable of the Lost coins and accused mice include myself in this. I don't think I've ever heard it talked about from the perspective of joy. Yeah, actually, it's the dominant emotion. It's referred to twice rejoice with me. So both finders say, rejoice with me. And then Jesus has little commentary of both times is the net result of this is joy. in the spiritual realm, joy, God finds joy in this. And so it's like, how do I you know, even think about that in my own perceptions, that joy? Is Jesus saying, Listen, listen, friends, you're objecting to me having a dinner here. Like I love your idea of Jesus being the host. I've hosted a dinner, right? And you're angry, but God's joyful. So like, you got to do some enlightenment work here. You know, because because you're getting angry at things that should be causing you joy, or just like water challenge to me, john, just like what a challenge to see. What's out there that I'm going well, that's just not right. No. And, you know, I'm a theologian, you know, well, I'm a Bible scholar, I suppose. Let me not promote myself. You know, I'm a Bible scholar, I can get really caught up in the small print, you know, it's, you know, you hear the song or you hear a teaching and God is not quite right, you know, and sometimes we can miss the joy that's present, you know, you, Jesus is Jesus saying, with that little line, come on this scene, this scene should be a scene of joy. And you've turned it into a scene of anger, because you're, you're grumbling, you know, just like the Israelites in the desert, you should have been happy, you're free. But you found something to complain about. I just, I don't know. I just love that john is so intelligent to me.

John Andrews   1:00:41  
It's brilliant. And of course, I think the power of it is rejoice with me. Hmm. So the shepherds going to rejoice, the woman's going to rejoice, but they are invading others who may not feel the joy so much and not see the point of the rejoicing, to rejoice. And you can't help but feel that Jesus is appealing to the religious who are gathered around and saying, Come on, rejoice with me. And of course, it's where we're probably going to lean into tomorrow. As we get to the parable of the two sons. There is rejoicing, and yet, and yet there is one who is angry. Yeah, and one who stands outside the party, and refuses to embrace the invitation. Rejoice with me. And I think it is possible to be to be at home and yet, and yet, to miss the point and to miss the opportunity of enter into the heart of God. So there is a call on all of us to learn to rejoice with God, what does he rejoice in? We should rejoice in it. Whether we get it or not rejoice with it, because that's what he rejoices in. And, dare I said, the Pharisees are being challenged. Rejoice, stop your grumbling. and rejoice with me that these centers and tax collectors are actually Well, they've been found.

David Harvey  1:02:10  
And I would love you to rejoice with me in that when you but you know, it's an imperative, isn't it? rejoice, it's a, it's a command, grammar of it. It's a command, enter, like, just let me just push that just a little tiny bit further. The, you're being told to rejoice? Because it's not the sort of thing you're used to rejoicing about dread. You know, like, hey, affirm my sheep, like, sheep are always getting lost. We can't have a party every time somebody finds a lost sheep, right? Yes, we can. If it says the kingdom of God, no, no, we can have a party every, every time somebody finds a lost coin, it's one coin, it's going to cost more than that to host the party. You know, well, of course, you know, you can't help but think the cross is resonant. nating in that where God is saying, well, the salvation cost me everything, you know. And so you get this, like, you know, we can't have a party, just, you know, we'll be in debt, it will be bankrupt in seconds, you know, if we do that sort of thing. You know, john, I was, I, when I was younger, I was I served for a little while in the church, and there were there were lovely people, and they loved the Bible, and they loved Jesus, and they wanted to do a thing wants to create a week that would be the invite in a guest speaker who was going to preach and, and just, you know, encourage people to follow Jesus and and I've been working with with some young people in the area, and there was a few kind of people I'd be working with fruit for like a few months just trying to encourage them to maybe connect with Jesus and connect with church. And on the final night of they came to a few of these services and on the final night of this week of universal speaking which was intentionally aimed at finding lost people one of them responded to the this kind of call to follow Jesus and said, Yeah, I want to turn my life around on of quality Jesus. And, and so they were they were talking to somebody afterwards. And one of the older kind of Christians in the church older as in more mature, not necessarily an age, came up to them and said, You're very welcome to come on Sunday morning, we're, you know, we're we're having service, and they said, Oh, I love that. And then the person said this, they said, just when you come on Sunday, try and dress a little more appropriately for church, you know, and, and, like, just I remember just thinking, Man, I want to rejoice that this person has just found hope in Jesus and then somebody decided, you know, and it's like, it's a desert. No, rejoice. Like you have a list Pharisees. There's a whole thing you want to sort out there's a whole lot you want to you want to construct an investigation as to how the sheep got lost. you're wanting to figure out Whose fault is that the fence was left open, you know, you're wanting to do all of this analysis and the CSI work. But the here's the here's the instruction, rejoice because the sheep has been found, you know, and it just like, like, this is not a children's story, john Jordan story? No, it's

John Andrews   1:05:19  
it's for us all. And it's absolutely that's teacher to children. But that's not that's not to say this is for children. Only this, this is for us all. I think we, you know, I've been a follower of Jesus over 40 years, and I still need to hear this. Because there, if I can say this carefully, I hope I don't offend anybody. There's a fallacy. And as all, you know, and we do slip into, especially if you've been in a religious club for a while, if you've been around good people and doing stuff for a while, you know, it's just, it's just easy to think of yourself in a certain way, in a way above your own station or on a way that just subtly runs in an unspoken way makes you feel superior to the people around you. And actually, we've got to constantly remember that we were only fine because a shepherd came looking for us, you know, the woman tore the house down, in order to find the coin. And our fineness has probably less to do with our personal, our personal piety, and more to do with his compassionate, relentless, gracious generosity. And we keep reminding ourselves of that, and I think we give ourselves the chance to rejoice. Yes, we're gonna we're gonna keep a grateful and generous heart when we remember that. It wasn't that long ago, since we were last. And on our phone, this has more to do with him than it has to do with us.

David Harvey  1:06:48  
And that is a fantastic trailer for the next parable that we're going to talk about tomorrow, because the question just seems to be hanging out there is when you read this story, who are you? Are you the person doing the finding? Are you are you the person who is lost? And I think what we're gonna see tomorrow is that Jesus is actually maybe doing something really clever with these three parables. He's He's maybe just suggesting that the people who think they're found my might not be as phony as they thought. Okay, that's it for Episode Seven. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. If you want to get in touch with either office about something we said you can reach out to us on podcast at to texts.com or by liking and following to text podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you did enjoy the episode, we'd love it if you left a review or comment where you're listening from. And if you really enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend. Don't forget you can listen to all our podcasts to text calm, or wherever you get your podcasts. But that's it for this episode. We will be back tomorrow. But until then, goodbye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai