Life Around "The Fire"
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Life Around "The Fire"
Tracy Perez Provides a Powerful, Prophetic Exposition Involving the Lion Revealing the Lamb: Restoring Balance to Our Worship and Our Christology
What happens when our worship emphasizes the conquering Lion but neglects the sacrificial Lamb? Tracy Perez joins us to share a profound vision that challenged his understanding of Christology and worship practice.
The conversation begins with Tracy describing an extraordinary spiritual experience where he witnessed three snarling wolves attempting to break through ancient wooden doors, while inside stood a blood-covered lamb that would ultimately destroy them. This vision launched him into a deeper exploration of how we've potentially created an unbalanced view of Christ in contemporary worship culture.
Through scriptural examination, Tracy points out that the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" appears only once in Scripture—in Revelation 5—where interestingly, the Lion immediately reveals the Lamb who was slain. Meanwhile, lamb imagery permeates the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. He shares fascinating historical research showing how the early church emphasized sacrificial lamb imagery for its first three centuries, with the lion imagery only becoming dominant during the age of Constantine and later during the Crusades.
The discussion delves into how music and art shape theology, challenging listeners to consider whether our worship practices reflect a balanced understanding of Christ's nature. Tracy vulnerably shares how this revelation required personal repentance and a shift in his own thinking, despite his deep roots in the worship movement. His powerful statement—"If the roaring lion doesn't reveal the lamb, we may be revealing the wrong lion"—offers a thought-provoking challenge to worship leaders, pastors, and believers everywhere.
Whether you're involved in worship ministry or simply seeking a deeper understanding of Christ's nature, this conversation will challenge you to reconsider how we perceive and present Jesus in our contemporary Christian experience. Join us for this reverent yet revolutionary conversation about restoring balance to our Christology.
Loving Yeshua/Jesus, Loving people... Come as you are and you will be loved!
Feel free to check out our website by typing in lifearoundthefire.com or Life Around The Fire ... We think you'll find some beneficial stuff to look at and apply to your life.
Shalom to you and your home.
Folks, I want to welcome you as you tune into this particular podcast episode. I've been looking forward to this for, actually, for Tracy Perez to bring really what I consider to be an international word of God from God to be experienced to us and through us, and so, tracy, I want to welcome you once again. Again, you're not a newcomer here, so we love you and I'm going to let you give any kind of backdrop and background to what you're going to be sharing, and then you just feel free to go from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, david, good to be here and well, that prayer right before this was powerful. So the Lord is in the room, his inspiration. So I had sent this probably two weeks ago I think two weeks ago or so, two weeks ago, and I'll go in with the back story but I sent David just. I was inspired, I was inspired and that word has really been amplified to me these days Inspiration, inspiration. And all the way over here on the drive I was hearing Revelation 19.10,.
Speaker 2:The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy and, as we have been, you know, old way fellowship and if you've heard me on the podcast and David is a leader in that, in that group, that we, you know, for a couple of years and it's still going, even though we haven't been meeting on Fridays, but we are again and it it moved into a meeting where we really were, quite by accident, but but seeking revelation on what the early church operated in the old way. If you will, you know we've talked for years about let's go, we want to. You know the charismatic church, we want a book of Acts church. You know let's do that, and you know Pentecost and the fire and everything and we do. But you know, I don't know that we've had it. We've had pieces of it but we haven't had it and I don't know that we will have it until we have a really thorough understanding of what it actually was. And to do that, as hard as it may sound, I believe there has to be a deconstruction of type of the Greco-Roman system that's been in place. And so, you know, there's a deconstruction kind of going on now in the church, where the charismatic church, you know, where we're kind of fighting each other and it's really just. It really isn't the deconstruction that's necessary. I'm not saying exposure is not necessary, but a deconstruction in the sense that what we've been doing at Old Way Fellowship is seeking revelation of what the Old Way was.
Speaker 2:So we've done podcasts on Olam, on Exousia right and Dunamis Authority. We've done Spirit Realm. You know most of the podcasts. We've done David together were, you know, on the Office of the Prophet? We're on those lines together. We're you know, on the office of the prophet. We're on those lines.
Speaker 2:So on the way here and all morning I was asking the Lord about. You know, this inspired what inspired me with what we're going to share in the podcast today. And the inspiration, literally, the word is to be breathed on. Inspire. When we inspire, we, you know to breathe in. Expire, we breathe out. You know, if we expire without inspiring then we're dead right. But inspiration, and so for us inspiration is literally as we make ourselves available to the wind of God for revelation.
Speaker 2:And what I've been finding is eight months that we've not had Old Way Fellows way, fellowship. And I've been on the farm. We've. We've raised three geese and three ducks from little bitties, little bitties, to five months old. You know huge squawking. We've got three kittens that we took from just being weaned into barn cats. Now, at six months old, we've got we had started with five deer, three doe on the property and we have three fawns that are two months old.
Speaker 2:And as I've watched that day in and day out and just kind of living in that with the Lord, I'm getting very inspired and the more I agree with something. For instance, we had two peregrine falcons show up on the property and I'm not going to go there because I want to get to this, but it's important what I say because it has to do with where this comes from and where everything's coming from these days. So these peregrine falcons show up on the property. I really have not seen a lot of peregrine falcons. I'm a guy that sees hawks all the time. I see eagles not a lot. I notice them maybe when others don't.
Speaker 2:Swallowtail kite important thing I'm thinking about With Jeannie and I we're texting about something really important and swallowtail kite circles overhead and that is a regular thing with us for years and I've always wondered is that weird? Is that that something? And what I've learned is I have celebrated those things. Romans, 120 god's invisible attributes are clearly known by that which he's created and when I celebrate his create him, I don't worship the creation. That's where they went wrong, if you remember. But when I celebrate him in those things, then he gives me more and the more I celebrate it. Or if you could, you could use the word, agree with it that it's him. So the Peregrine Falcons you know I celebrate them and next thing, you know they're coming around all the time. And then it's leading me to Augustine, a hippo, and Peregrination and the Celtics. You know the Celtic saints and the desert fathers who Peregrination was a lifestyle of.
Speaker 2:You know anyway, that would be another podcast, but this, this came about the same way as I've been in that mindset at the farm for about eight months. So I shared this dream at Olway Fellowship in June of 2023. So two years ago and I had in June of 2023, so two years ago and I had in June of 2023, we're going to move right into that, and so what I was telling David is Revelation 19.10, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Well, when we did the podcast on the office of the prophet, we talked about function and we talked about a lot of things, but we really brought forth that prophecy is more New Testament. Prophecy is more foretelling bringing people into you know. It's more about telling you who you are in God than what you need to do than what you need to do.
Speaker 1:Not predicting, but proclaiming.
Speaker 2:Yes, and there is foretelling It'll happen, but it really is. New Testament prophecy really is to foretell, to encourage, comfort and exhort as you bring people into their destiny, as you carry them forth as prophets or leaders in the fivefold ministry. And so, as we think of the foretelling, it hit me today that what we're going to share today and this is preface is the testimony of Jesus. As I see Jesus in these things that happen, the more I agree with that, the more God breathes on that for me. Yeah, that's good, and he keeps breathing. And then I agree with that and I say this is something, this is you, and then he gives me more. To those who have, more will be given, and to those who don't, even that will be taken away, and somehow that will fit.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I wanted to say that, because I believe that's what is happening here, that we can understand the testimony of Jesus, we can understand the spirit of prophecy and what we agree in, and then it will increase our inspiration, which will be increasing revelation for all of us, increase, increase of revelation and inspiration, as we actually realize that's important, instead of just waiting for our Sunday meetings or Wednesday meetings or a great speaker, or you know what I mean, or what I mean or what have you to be inspired, that we really look for that inspiration. You know On a more daily basis, all the time. You know and then recognize and say, oh yeah, I see you in that Lord.
Speaker 1:And then Someone's called a shoe leather.
Speaker 2:Shoe leather.
Speaker 1:yeah, and you know back in the Shoe leather where you put your feet to it right In the mid-1800s I'll go.
Speaker 2:There is the people who you know, sigmund Freud and Carl Jung, who established modern-day psychology, which we don't need a part of that, but they had a phrase called synchronicity. It was a very real thing and it really is the principle we're talking about right now. That, as you agreed with things from the subconscious or from that realm that it moved them into the physical realm Absolutely Synchronicity, absolutely true. So they're taking the spiritual principle, the spirit of prophecy, testimony of Jesus, right is the spirit of prophecy. So they're taking that, you know again. So it is true. So in 2023, we're firing, guys, we are firing today. So, and I just our prayer was that this whole thing would be taken with the love that is intended. I am very connected regionally and nationally with the worship movement and worship leaders, and so some of this that applies there. Guys, just wait till the very end, because it's meant with a spirit of love. It really is, the whole thing is.
Speaker 2:So in June of 2023, I had what can only be described as a vision. I thought that it was a dream, but as I looked around, I could see my room and I knew I was awake. There were two tall, ancient-looking wooden doors that opened in the center, and I say ancient because of the iron supports and the timber. It was literally like big fort doors that you see in old movies or pictures, like large wooden gates leading in and out of a fort, and somehow I was watching this and I was also inside the doors. On the outside of the doors were three huge wolves and they literally were like. I mean, they were big, their teeth were bared, dripping out of their fangs. You know it was a really violent set of three wolves snarling to get in through these doors.
Speaker 1:It was a dream or a vision.
Speaker 2:A vision. I thought it was a dream, but as I looked, I realized I was awake because I could see around me, and I'm still seeing this stuff. So this only happened, guys, a couple of times in my life, and not recently. This was June of 2023, at about one o'clock in the morning, and so and I shared this at Old Way a few times, you probably remember, and, but I didn't, I'll go into that so they were snarling with their teeth, determined to get inside with me.
Speaker 2:On the inside of the doors Was a lamb, small lamb, covered in blood. I knew that these wolves were about to come through these ancient doors and just as surely I knew that as soon as they came through, they were coming for me, but as soon as they came through, that this little bloody lamb was going to utterly destroy them. I just knew that the lamb, the lamb that was on the inside of the door's, bloody lamb, which was kind of with me, and they were trying to get into the doors for destruction, whether it was me, and I knew the doors were about to open the lamb was going to open the doors, let them in and he would destroy them. I knew that the bloody lamb Right, would destroy these wolves on the outside, yeah, and I just knew that. I knew he would destroy them. And just as this was about to happen, I came out of the vision I went into. What I can only say is, for the only time in my life, I was caught up into a white light. And I didn't go to heaven necessarily, but I was with the Lord in a white light. I knew he was holding me. I literally felt like I was sucked up. I felt like I'd gone up in a tube. I could feel it and you probably remember me sharing this at Old Wake and it was real vulnerable for me to share that. And it was real vulnerable for me to share that. It was unlike anything I've ever experienced.
Speaker 2:And I came out of this wanting more understanding of the power and nature of the bloody lamb. And I had more understanding, but I wanted to know more of the bloody lamb in warfare and, as that happened, even at Old Way Fellowship, again in the worship movement, as I would try to, as I would share this, all around me were prophetic voices nationally. I mean, there was a lot. There was a lot of stuff, a lot of words, more words about the lion of the tribe of Judah and the roar, than there was the bloody lamb and it seemed, when I would share the Bloody Lamb, it really didn't seem to have. You know, it's having impact now, but it didn't seem to me to quite have. The impact Didn't have that much traction then. It didn't seem to as much as the lion, right. So I just kind of sat on it. I just asked the Lord help me with this.
Speaker 2:Okay, I moved right out of the encounter with that into a dream which was about Smith Wigglesworth being behind me. A spiritual son that had been estranged from us comes in and I would have the choice of either welcome him in or not, after a huge betrayal. And as it was that all came to pass, we welcomed him in trail. And as it was that all came to pass, we welcomed him in. And so there's so much on that dream that I shared, and it was also about a harvest that's going to come in. The dream was so, it was all tied into about two hours, and so I believe that the revelation of the bloody lamb and the Moravians had it, but the revelation of the bloody lamb for the body and the harvest, but the revelation of the bloody lamb for the body and the harvest, spiritual warfare, inner healing, that is. We understand the bloody lamb and the lion, so let me back up To highlight it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:As, because this is important as we understand the bloody lamb. That seems to be really a very strong resonating point the bloody lamb.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Christology, theology, is the study of God. Right, it's our study of God, how we understand the nature of God, the attributes of God. Christology is how we understand the nature and attributes of Christ, of Jesus, right, right. And so, as I've asked for inspiration into this, why does it really even matter, why does this even matter, whether it's the Lion of the tribe of Judah or the Bloody Lamb? And I started to get some revelation on it, david.
Speaker 2:And it does matter because we are in a time when our theology is changing. We are going from a theology of an angry father and a mediating Jesus who covers us from the angry father I'm painting broad strokes but who covers us from the angry father? Um, father, and his blood covers us so that the angry father doesn't punish us. In a word, I run across people, young people especially, that believe this. This is the theology that they've been grown up in and have run away from in the church, from in the church. Okay, and it would be atonement theology, which is old Testament, because atonement does mean, uh, kaffir, to cover, like a blanket right, not to remove but to cover. So Jesus said I come to bring you a new covenant right, the remission of sins, right. So it wasn't an atoning covenant, he was bringing in a new covenant, away from the atoning covenant into one where that whole it's gone. Now we're moved, now we come boldly before the son of grace, boldly before a loving father, so that theology is changing, okay, and it's common to a lot of people, but still it's not so common to a lot of people.
Speaker 2:It's a hard shift for some. For some it is and and it's, and it's happening now. And when I say now, over the last 40 years and maybe into the future a few years, you know what I mean. It's a short, we think so limited in time it's, but so. So our christology is going to be changing too. So to have a balanced christology, I have found the awkwardness of me sharing the Bloody Lamb, especially in the worship movement, was, most of you know, there was so much lion warfare stuff, worship and prophetic conferences, so much warfare that emphasized the lion of the tribe of Judah and the roar and it really got people going. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It gets you amped up.
Speaker 2:And that's okay, unless it's not okay. You know what I mean. So we have seen, you know it. Really, most of the branding for warfare in the charismatic church you know, for worship and warfare, prophetic type stuff of Christology, if you will, of Christ, would be—and I'm open to correction—is around the light.
Speaker 1:No, no, you're correct, and let me underscore this this is coming from someone who's committed to the worship movement.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm not attacking the worship movement. You're in, you're all in, you're part of yeah, my wife and I, you know, we lead.
Speaker 1:we've led worship for many years I know you do, but I'm underscoring it we teach, we teach we teach worshipers, you know we have a spiritual father who has been, you know, a father in the worship movement.
Speaker 2:So, uh, so, yeah, this is just what I'm I'm seeing, and so as we, uh, but why it matters is that we need a balanced Christology. Why does it matter? Because I believe if we're not careful, we create an unbalanced Christology that emphasizes the lion over the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world, and what this does is it's all power and might and aggression, and it will diminish the suffering, the sacrifice, the brokenness and the redemption of that that is at the true heart of worship. Okay, the fire falls on the sacrifice, not on the altar. Okay, so we can build the altar, but the fire falls on the sacrifice, not on the altar. So we can build the altar, but the fire falls on the sacrifice.
Speaker 2:So why this matters and why it's dear to my heart, so this actually required, this whole thing you have to understand, required me to repent, and I'm going to talk about this in a minute because I have a very personal application of it. That just happened yesterday and what I came to, what I sent to David, and I wrote this blog a couple of weeks ago and let my wife read it and she said that's a little mean spirited, I think you can't release that. And I thought, oh gosh, I didn't mean it that way, but let me send it to David, maybe he'll give me permission, you know. And he read it and said well, it might be a little cranky, but let's do a podcast.
Speaker 2:So, it moved him. And so we are just asking, father, just code all of this in love that we would embody the lion and the lamb. So what I believe has happened, and I'm just going to say it is I believe the emotional appeal, the visual appeal, the marketing appeal of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah has become the motivation for this type of branding. Okay, in the music industry, in the worship industry, which was never meant to be an industry, and I'm just there, you go guys. Those are strong words. I just said it and it's awkward and hard for me to say that, and that's what my wife thought was a little and corporately, you know the awkwardness I felt when I came with this powerful encounter that I'd had with a bloody lamb. You know that just annihilated those wolves, right, and let me know that there was nothing that could come against that in my life. Okay, it. It put me in a place of authority I have never walked in two years ago, but as I tried to express that, even as a preacher, you know, to my own congregation, it was awkward, yeah, it was awkward, it just was yeah, oh, yeah, okay, cool, you know, cool, tracy. And so maybe now is the time to, and and so I sorted out. So where does this come from?
Speaker 2:The lion of the tribe of judah is mentioned one time in the bible. Okay, now we know. You know the lion, the. The lion, you know, roars from zion, utters his voice from Jerusalem. We know that in the Old Testament, the root of Jesse, in Isaiah, the lion's whelp, genesis, the lion is mentioned as a shadow of Christ to come. It is, it's mentioned there, and we need to understand that. The lamb is mentioned, of course we know where the lamb's mentioned, all the way through, you know, from hundreds of times, right from the Passover. You know the lamb, the bloody lamb, has been God's chosen sacrificial. You know shadow, and that Christ fulfilled, you know, is the lamb of God, slain from the— Before creation, before the foundation of the world. Yeah, and you know so.
Speaker 2:But so biblically, the Lion of the tribe of Judah is mentioned one time in Revelation 5, in this powerful scripture, and it says then one of the elders said to me do not weep, see the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, he's referenced in Isaiah has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals. So there it is, the lion has triumphed. But then I saw a lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by four living creatures and the elders. The lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll.
Speaker 2:The lamb took the scroll from the right hand of him, who sat on the throne, and when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb. Each one had a heart and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are prayers, are the prayers of God's people, and they sang a new song saying you are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were slain With your blood. You purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.
Speaker 2:I looked and heard the voice of many angels numbering thousands and thousands and tens thousands times ten thousands.
Speaker 2:They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying worthy is the lamb who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise. I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them saying to him who sits on the throne and to the lamb, be praise and honor. And I'm reiterating this because, in a glory and power, forever and ever, the four living creatures said amen and the elders fell down and worshiped. And that's the scripture where the line of the tribe of Judah in the whole Bible is even mentioned. So, as I ask again that inspiration, everything I talked about earlier, lord, what does this mean? Why does it matter? I know it means something. You're not just saying this for me to be, you know, to tickle my fancy, you know, or to be clever, you know, I've always, I've always, you know, I don't ever want to get revelation just so I can have a clever word.
Speaker 2:That's really it's you know it is easy to have happen oh my goodness and it's not very fruitful and it's not very, uh, satisfying really.
Speaker 2:No, no, without the anointing and without the inspiration of God. And so giftedness can get you there. So, as I asked him that it was the lion, the lion of the tribe of Judah in Revelation 5, had been triumphant. Right, he has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and seven seals, but what does he do? He reveals the bloody lamb. The lion reveals the bloody lamb. So we don't get rid of the lion of the tribe of Judah, but a balanced Christology will be that the lion of the tribe of Judah in our warfare will reveal the lamb in our lives and in our corporate.
Speaker 1:So so as as, as as we go it, so it was in in our worship. Yes, revealing the lamb in our worship.
Speaker 2:I think so in worship, what I find, yes, so let's personalize it and all my worship guys. Now stick with me and I'll tell you. I'm going to tell you something funny at the end of this, so stay with me, uh, please. So in our worship, you know, I've actually kind of made jokes about three fast, powerful songs, too slow, so you know that kind of stuff, but there is a flow there that may be appropriate. It may be actually biblical that the nature of the lion in our worship reveals the lamb, ultimately, okay.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm just and those are just food for thoughts. You know, I think what I would want to be careful to and warn of is possibly going too far either way, is that you know, if you're a real, there are folks that I know that are powerful and they can push, push, push. You know the lion. Lion lives inside of them, in in warfare, platform, warfare, worship. You know, with their voice, their instrument, just, it's part of who they are and it's extremely powerful and you know. So for me is the balance of that that can be very satisfying and I think so when we are operating in that, that we would just become that we intend and ask the Lord, humbly ask let the bloody lamb expression be just as powerful in me. Let the high decibel power exhale be powerful, but also let the complete silence while the lamb takes the room be and usually it's more powerful.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say that the silence sometimes the silence is is is louder, yeah than the roar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's nothing more beautiful than a well played silence, oh you know, and if you've been in a room which you have I'm sure when, and we had to go away when the glory comes and it would just be silent, there's nothing more to do, and you just sit, that's worship, and then pretty soon travail kind of enters the room and then it just goes from there. And it probably started with the warfare of the push.
Speaker 1:I would say almost without a doubt warfare of the push.
Speaker 2:You know, without I would say I was without a doubt and so, uh, you know. So again, I say, this whole thing for me, this whole process for me, required and I've got it written in my notes my vision and experience of a couple years ago was a correction for me that required repentance on my part. Okay, so I want to just say that again, this whole process from the vision to today has been a correction for me, requiring repentance of changing, you know, of doing some mind changes for me.
Speaker 1:How would you Tracy, just briefly, how would you express or how would you define repentance? Well, the word is metanoia.
Speaker 2:The Greek word is metanoia, and we get to repent, to repay, you know, penitence, to repay something. It really comes from Greco-Roman culture, the Latin really comes from a Greco-Roman culture, the Latin. So we've adopted that to repay. You know where it means. It really, metanoia means to bring my mind back into agreement with the mind of Christ, with the original mind of God. For me, so it does require a turnaround of you know, to do a turnaround, we say all of that will happen and again, we have taken these idiomatic words and I'm afraid, in the system that we need to move out of, we have taken many words which we've talked about sin, grace, repentance and moved them into the meaning of it being the consequence of repentance. So the repentance is, my mind completely changes to the mind of Christ or back to the original mind of God. That's metanoia. And then, because of that, I will completely do a 180, turn from sin, turn from selfishness. I will change directions. All of that, all of those will follow. Yeah, but if that makes sense, Thank you.
Speaker 2:The Lord has had me there for a while on those words. So, david, when you talked about 1 Samuel, stick with me. Guys, we're just getting ready to blow some things, not blow some things up. I just feel like this morning that I needed to go here is because why does this matter? You know, that's my question. Why is this a word?
Speaker 2:I was so humble when David sent that to me. I thought, gosh, you know, the old me would have kind of made fun of it and said, oh, you know, not me, lord. But now I'm saying, okay, if that's me, then why, why me? And what are you wanting to say really through this? And I trust David as a prophet, so I don't take anything David says lightly Period, he's a prophet in my life. So you're studying 1 Samuel, and so in 1 Samuel we'd come out. God's children had come out of a system of judges, right, and then Samuel, through an intercessor, through a travailing intercessor, god says I'm going to change my whole system right now, as I'm coming out of this judge system and I'm going to take this broken woman and birth a prophet who will birth other prophets, who will birth David, and that whole culture of worship and prophecy and knobby prophecy. But before that could happen is when Samuel's about to die. We know what happened.
Speaker 2:The people want a king. They want a king. They want a conquering king. Human nature wants the lion of the tribe of Judah to lead them. When Jesus came, when Messiah came, they wanted a conquering king. You know, they didn't want the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He kept telling them here I am. John told them it's the lamb of God that takes the sin of it. But they were so intent on their Messiah taking, you know, coming in as the military. You know, knock room right on the back side, marshal side, coming in and conquering right, yeah. So this is where this is important. So this same mindset that created Saul. Then God fixes that through David, okay, through a worship, through a lowly shepherd, the shadow of Christ, David, you know, the servant shepherd, all of those things that took care of lambs. Okay, the gentleness of the whole thing. Right, sets up a tabernacle. Well, the people wanted a charismatic king, they wanted someone to lead them in war.
Speaker 2:And I have to just speak to I am a nationalist and I am a Christian, but there's also, I see there's a tendency. If we don't, if we aren't careful where this tendency that has been in humanity forever, of that conquering lion, can work itself into today in Christian nationalism. Okay, and this is not going to be popular with friends of mine, but again, I'm a nationalist, I know what the country was found on and I am all about that. Okay, I am just talking about spiritually and also I'm able to talk to and disciple and father quite a few young people these days in their 20s and early 30s and they all are bumping up against this stuff, okay, and they're talking about it and they're bumping up against it with the church and they don't like it. They really don't like it, and so I'm explaining it. But they're opening up my eyes too and I believe it has to do with this mindset of this. You know, and it's not a new thing, this is not a new thing.
Speaker 1:No, it's not.
Speaker 2:The theological paradox of the lion as a savior and an adversary, because we know we have the roaring lion right Right, right right.
Speaker 2:You know, in Peter he says you know roaring, you know to scare everybody, but in the lion. So ever since the you know Middle Ages, the lion has been used as a victorious symbol of war. You know, symbolizing Christ's conquest during the middle, from the 1100s, from the 1000s to all the way, you know all the way on. The lion dominated sermons, church art, devotionals, writings. You see, Richard the Lionhearted, the Crusades were all fought under the banner of the lion. The Crusades were all fought under the banner of the lion. You know of tribe, of Judah, and you know the lion standing on his hind legs and you've seen that.
Speaker 2:And so what happens is art and music define culture, even church culture. If you've ever seen I'll give you an example the painting of Leonardo da Vinci, the Last Supper. If anybody grew up with their mother popping them, saying, take your elbow off the table, right, david's laughing. Right, Take your elbow off. You know where that comes from. Judas' elbow is on the table in Da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper. Okay, don't want to be a Judas and you don't want to be a Judas. So those little things go deep, deep, deep into our culture. So this lion, christ as the conquering Messiah, and it's true, he has conquered. He conquered by being the bloody lamb. Conquered by being the bloody lamb, by being the bloody lamb, conquered by gentleness, by becoming, yeah, meekness.
Speaker 1:Which is what he taught. You know, it's what he taught, that that the, the paradox of that is so powerful. But it's so, it's, it's it's true?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean he did. He flipped the tables, you know, out of love for his father's house. But if you just stay right there, you know there's about a whole lot more scriptures. You know of carrying your enemy's bag. You know twice as far as they ask you to carry it. You know loving your enemy on and on.
Speaker 1:So he flipped the tables in more ways than one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly and you know so this. So I wrote down here uh, the lion, richard the lionheart, actually made his seal in the third crusade. You know the lion that would identify and become synonymous with battle strength during the Crusades, battle strength of Christ. Okay, so this is indoctrinated deep into our system from the Catholic Church, Right? And so I had to do some research and I thought, okay, what did the early church fathers, how did they? What did they think? And I'm just going to read you some straight research okay, Up until the late third century, early church fathers emphasized sacrificial, redemptive, not warlike themes in all of their art Sacrificial. Yeah, the lamb, the lamb, you know the lamb, the olive branch you know most first through third century art would be the lamb.
Speaker 1:That's still pretty fresh after.
Speaker 2:After Jesus for the first three centuries up until Constantine up until.
Speaker 2:Catholicism. The paint's still pretty wet. We still can track that. There's art that's—we have plenty of art, christian art that goes to it, mosaics and just different things. We have plenty of art to reference in that, so it's pretty easy to— and music and art define the culture. Yeah, it does. Music and art defines the culture. It's why our worship is so powerful and strong, and worship creates theology, whether we like it or not. So it's really. And there are other people that's another subject, but it's the same. But the Wesleys Charles Wesley, who wrote thousands of songs and then on and on Some of the best theology in them.
Speaker 2:Theology was pretty much created for the Great Awakening, through hymns, you know, and that's why the hymns are so powerful and stood the test of time. But this up until the third century. Church art of the first three centuries was predominantly the Lamb of God. In their art anthology Beholding the Lamb of God and the Triumphant Lamb, slain of Revelation 5. One of the most common pieces of art in the first three centuries was the good shepherd carrying the hurt lamb. In the early church the lie had always appeared secondary. It was not central to any church, early church doctrine, teaching or worship. It was all about the Lamb. And so my question. So I guess my challenge is my challenge and we're wrapping this up. Did we do it in 30 minutes or more, I don't know, but so we're wrapping this up.
Speaker 2:So what my wife might have thought was a little mean-spirited, I don't have to say Cranky, cranky, I'm not feeling cranky.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling it. You're far from cranky David and I are a little drunk in the spirit here.
Speaker 2:So if that's coming through, but it's you know and if the roaring lion doesn't reveal the lamb, then it may be the wrong roaring lion, Wow.
Speaker 2:If the roaring lion doesn't reveal the lamb, then I'm afraid we need to be careful that we may be revealing the wrong One more time. Oh, if, if the roaring lion does not reveal the lamb, as in revelation 5, then we may be revealing the wrong lion. It may be coming from a place and that was my fear in the blog a place of marketing emotion. Maybe I said self we just again. This was a correction and a repentant thing for me. And if we do a part two, are we going to do any? A part two at all, you think, or did we run out?
Speaker 1:What we're going to do is we're going to take and we're going to pause here right now and we're going to come back and we're going to have a little bit of a discussion time. Yeah, but you're still going to have the lion's share of what we're doing. But once again, folks, we love you and if you happen to have any thoughts, questions, concerns, please feel free to drop us a line at Life Around the Fire or if you're just interested in looking up some stuff, you can check us out on the web at Life Around the Fire. Type it in. We'd love to hear from you and, in the meantime, adios, amigos, but we'll be right back.