Life Around "The Fire"
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Life Around "The Fire"
This is a Q & A Episode with Tracy Perez and David Huotari Discussing the Issues Surrounding Intimacy Over Force: Rediscovering Early Church Mysticism
The pendulum between Lion and Lamb imagery has swung dramatically throughout church history, with profound implications for our spiritual lives. Tracy opens up about a revelation that challenged his own approach to spiritual authority, sharing how the early church primarily identified with Christ as the sacrificial Lamb rather than the conquering Lion.
This conversation delves into how our cultural preferences have shaped Christian spirituality, often gravitating toward power, conquest, and warfare language while undervaluing surrender, gentleness, and vulnerability. Tracy and David reflect on their own experiences in the charismatic movement, recalling the profound spiritual encounters they had with the "Father's heart" movement in the mid-1980s—experiences characterized not by forceful declarations but by gentle, tender intimacy that carried extraordinary power.
The most profound insight emerges through their discussion of Paul's thorn in the flesh. Rather than seeing obstacles as things to overcome through aggressive spiritual warfare, they suggest a more transformative approach: understanding that God's grace—His effectual power—works most perfectly when we surrender our striving. For those facing seemingly insurmountable challenges, the message is liberating: your breakthrough may come not through fighting harder but through surrendering deeper.
This episode offers a timely correction to imbalanced spirituality, inviting listeners to rediscover the mysticism of the early church where relationship trumped religious performance. As Tracy concludes with a powerful prayer, he reminds us that "fire falls on the sacrifice, not on the altar"—a fitting metaphor for a spirituality where our surrendered lives become the conduit for God's most powerful work. Ready to experience the authority that comes through intimacy? This conversation might just transform your approach to spiritual challenges.
Loving Yeshua/Jesus, Loving people... Come as you are and you will be loved!
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Shalom to you and your home.
All right, folks, welcome back. We're going to do kind of a part two of this series. We're calling it a series, but the first portion that Tracy shared was really the that's really the lion's share of the word that God gave to him, pun intended, and the lambbs share on that one.
Speaker 1:But we're going to have a little bit more of an open forum, a little question and discussion time. We've done this before and it seems to flow pretty good. And so, tracy, concerning this aspect of and you touched in on it and I think it's important to touch in on it personally again a little bit and that is that certain things they sell books, they sell tapes they can be marketed, and I don't think that's all wrong. I think there's a place for things to be sold and people have materials that they put in their hands.
Speaker 1:But there also is something about having a shtick and, uh, I really think that you did us a good service by just emphasizing the fact that that is a pendulum that's been swinging back and forth. You know how it goes, and sometimes we, the pendulum swings and you're right in the middle and everything's good, but then it can swing a little bit over middle and everything's good, but then it could swing a little bit over, and I think that there's a danger in has been a danger in using the line as a marketing tool. Is that a fair assessment or am I taking that a little bit too far?
Speaker 2:No, I think I believe I've seen that, you know, I've seen it more and you have too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, prophetic Worship and Warfare Conference, you know, for the last 30 years or so, and this you know, all spiritual, the lion being the emblem. But I want to, I don't know that, if it's, I don't know that it's so conscious, you know, I don't know that it's so conscious, you know, because it is. At times we wind up. You know, I bet, as we have this discussion and I said, the only time the Lion of the tribe of Judah is mentioned is once in Revelation 5, I bet a lot of people who have been in church a long time may scratch their head at that because of the amount of times and the emphasis they've seen on that, and maybe not. I could be wrong. So I think what happens is over time even. That's why I mentioned the middle ages and how that you know that fed into it the need of humanity.
Speaker 2:Even when the, when matthai jesus came, you know, right to the very end, they, they were like wait a minute.
Speaker 1:You know he was supposed to come as the conquering lion.
Speaker 2:And they had some, you know, they had all the lamb stuff, but in their mind, under the Roman oppression, their need was for the conquering, you know, for Messiah was for the conquering, you know, for Messiah, you know, and the oppressed Jews for all those years was someone who would take them out of their physical oppression and then in the Middle Ages, as that became, I think it kind of gets into our, literally, into our culture and into our subconscious, you know, and then it starts, and when that happens it actually moves people. So yeah, so what marketing is based on? Moving people?
Speaker 2:That's what it's designed for it's made on you know. So you know good preaching moves people, and so, with that being said, yeah, I don't want to accuse people of being marketers.
Speaker 2:I think that we recognize and I go back to this caused me to want to repent. In other words, how can I live a more balanced life? How can I balance this out more? Jeannie really expresses the lamb much more than the lion in worship. It's powerful if you think about it, and I'm not saying that's good or bad. She could probably use more of the push. So I'm always thinking about what that looks like in application and there will be people maybe on this podcast and going forward that we'll nail in on that.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's healthy. I think it's healthy to acknowledge, if there's a need to bring about some change, repentance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's where the key is, because what I see is going back. It was interesting why the Old church? Because we want to go back to the book of Acts church and I believe we are, you know, in 2025. God's the same yesterday, today and forever. So you know, so we will. So to go back to the early church means we go back to their, the original doctrines. What is it Breaking? Bread, communion, fellowship and the apostles' doctrine, which was what Love of Jesus, of Jesus, taught.
Speaker 1:Because it was so fresh Well, I mean talk about fresh, he had just ascended, basically, and so the time frame in which that was taking place and the emphasis that you presented through the first three centuries was more so. Concerning the lamb Was the lamb, yeah, and the shepherd?
Speaker 2:And the shepherd carrying the lamb.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the shepherd Carrying the lamb, the shepherd carrying the lamb, yeah. And there's something I know I came into contact with this personally in the 80s, mid-80s. I came in touch with a real gentleness in the area of worship and it happened to be in the context of the vineyard, the vineyard, yeah, the vineyard, the area of worship, and it happened to be in the context of the vineyard, the vineyard, yeah, the vineyard, the Father's heart, and it was extraordinary, yeah, oh, and it was quiet and it was gentle, but it was so powerful, I mean powerful God's presence, so he hovered on that he came upon it and we were hosting his glory.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't. Sometimes it was exuberant yes, yes and yes, but other times it was almost tearful.
Speaker 2:And it was a new thing oh to me.
Speaker 1:I was undone. What was that? The 80s?
Speaker 2:Mid-80s for me. Yeah, mid-80s for me, mid-80s, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then into the early 90s, and then spiritual warfare then became a little more in vogue for a bit, and then the prophetic movement kind of took a swing that was a little more aggressive in its approach toward addressing things. Addressing things, and all that being said, though, that the, the vision that you had, again, that was, you didn't my understanding. You just seek that out. Oh no, no, no, it wasn't like you're trying to traffic a, something rarely happens I Travacate something.
Speaker 2:No, I bet it is Rarely happens. I wouldn't mind it happening again.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it was but it was that it rocked me. Yeah, yeah, it rocked you, and to this day, would you say that the effect of that rings through and it's coming around again.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so I love what you were saying, what you were saying there, and I think what it speaks to a lot of, it speaks to the need for both, but the in a warfare, the exhale or, if you will, the roar, the line, line of the tribe of judiblically, I think, reveal or move into the intimacy you said that word with Vineyard, the intimacy, the intimacy. The lamb, the intimacy of the bloody lamb, you know. And so yeah, and that's where we need the balance, because the authority is in the intimacy.
Speaker 1:There was so much power in it. It was power that wasn't. It wasn't a forceful power.
Speaker 2:It was tangible Because the power is in the intimacy.
Speaker 1:Oh, the power was in the intimacy With the lamb, with the lamb. I could see how he could conquer a wolf With the lamb. Yeah, he could just swallow a wolf up, yeah. Or wolf With the lamb yeah, he just swallowed the wolf up. Yeah, the presence of the lamb, the beauty of that, was holy yeah.
Speaker 2:So the declarations, all of that is necessary. It's in there to reveal, to move us into intimacy.
Speaker 1:It's in there to reveal, to move us into intimacy, but that alone would be stopping short.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think what happens and I'll go so far as to say, and I've just been David tasked me with his group is what he said last night this would be a word is that when Samuel, so Saul comes up, they want a king, human nature, right, right, god raises up a prophet who will raise up the school of the prophets, one of them being David. Right, anoints David as king. So they want Saul, the tall, good-looking war leader, right, so he gives them that. So that's how God fixes that. And with that, you know, it's a bit of human nature. So, with what I find what this does, it's almost if we don't move into that place of intimacy, then our warfare will be striving, possibly Stay in a place of striving and never move into a place of surrender in our lives. Because I'm going to jump on, I'm going to dovetail here to another thing. I that the other day. But so so connor, if you know connor, my son, you know connor's here, by the way, he is. He's doing awesome in his journey. So he has gotten to a place of extreme healing from where everybody said he would never be. You know, know that he'd be institutionalized, but he's gotten to this place over the past eight years of dramatic healing and over the past year or so, it's almost as if he was getting worse, not physically, but as I saw him, he was not happy. He was, you know, not happy, overly anxious, just all this stuff. And he doesn't mind me talking about him because I'm watching, you know, as a dad, you know, and I'm wondering, and then I could apply this to my own life.
Speaker 2:But it was that we talked about how we have defined words that the early church would have understood, understood, and we've defined them through. You know that the system, the greek roman system, that came in in 350 and really never left, you know luther was still a product of that. You know everybody got the word but there was still that and it hasn't left yet. You know, uh, and I believe, going forward, over, over, over the next, you know years and on, however long it takes, that we will move into that. I believe that's the next place for God's people. So, that being said, to me it's important and to the people that I lead, if you will, and teach that we, as David knows, we study these things.
Speaker 2:So I'm watching Connor and as I'm studying, and as I'm studying, grace, the word grace. So grace is the effectual power of God in my life. Okay, so by grace, through faith, I'm saved. Okay, so, by the effectual power of God in my life. So I was always taught that grace was unmerited, favor, that I got what I didn't deserve and mercy I didn't get what I did deserve. Okay, and just hush up and believe that. Okay, Cause that's what it is. You know you didn't deserve to be saved, but you believe, so you got it. You know Well, and and it does mean that you know what I mean. I didn't deserve it, so I'm not arguing that, but it actually means the effectual power, grace.
Speaker 2:You know the word C-H-A-I-R-O is. You know it is. So the other day I was thinking that we have really kind of moved. The word mystic has become a bad word in the church. I love the word that, and I do too, and you know we do, because and I think the early church they were mystics. They weren't executives, you know they were. You know everything Paul wrote about eldership and deacons, and everything was based on relationship, both vertical to the Lord and horizontal with his people. It wasn't based on functional gifting or the ability to execute things right, and so all of those things as we moved into a new model. But I just want to stick with grace because it works. I'm going to tie it into what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:So where the Lord took me was the thorn in Paul's flesh and in our flesh. It's not there for us to remove it or to write a million commentaries about what was the thorn. Okay, it's there. It's a divine opportunity for us to understand what grace really means, and what it means is the effectual power of God in our hearts and his power over darkness being made perfect, as we agree. And let him do that.
Speaker 2:So Paul's got this messenger from Satan, can't get rid of it. You know this person who had been to heaven changing the world he and Silas, you know. And he's got this messenger from Satan three times. He can't get rid of it. God, take it from him. I can't get rid of it. Would you ask him three times? Would you take it from me? And God's going to teach him a lesson here and we want to figure out what's the thorn. Was it his blindness? Was it this? Was it anxiety? With the Judaizers, on and on. And what God's trying to teach him is okay, paul, I'm not removing the thorn. What I'm going to do is let you learn that my effectual power working in you is sufficient for all of this, and as soon as you just give up my power, that power will be made perfect in your weakness. Okay.
Speaker 1:Which is what you're talking about, gentleness weakness.
Speaker 2:Okay, which is what you're talking about, gentleness. And so I believe, by the propensity to emphasize the lion over the lamb, the bloody lamb, slain is the lion. The lion is still kind of running things. You know, there's still a bit of striving and movement. I still got. You know, I'm still kind of moving this thing. If you will, and I'm just talking about myself, I'm still moving this thing. Even though I'm saying all the right stuff, I'm still the lamb, the bloody lamb, as I have just laid down, and been slaughtered and died. I surrender, you know I surrender and I can't do anything.
Speaker 1:There's something so powerful, so unnatural, the Lord comes on that right there. Yeah, so that's where I want to do this, Tracy. Let's say you got five minutes of your life to say something that's just. You're going to cap this thing off in five minutes. Somebody's listening right now right, I say this by the understanding of the Lord. Somebody's listening to this right now and they need to hear a word that's just encapsulating what we've shared, and is there something that you could convey that?
Speaker 2:would sum up what you've shared. Yeah, I think so. So there are people and I can speak to myself here, so I'm not preaching to you, I'll preach with you. There are people. There are some of you, many of you, all of us who are striving to see something happen somewhere somehow in our lives.
Speaker 2:Okay, we are following God, we are serving God, but we're running up against stuff that we want to move out of the way. Okay, we just do it needs to be moved out of the way. Whether it's health, whether it's financial, whether it's church stuff, relational stuff, you know, whatever it is, whether it's Connor wanting to talk and move into this next place of healing, okay, there's stuff that we all need to go further. And then human nature is to declare and decree, and I'm not saying, stop doing that, but human nature is that we declare and we decree and we fight. Okay, and we fight. And jesus came and just turned that all upside down and and most of what he said was contrary to human nature. You know, he came around as a bloody lamb, slain from the foundation of the world, and the gentleness of that lamb there's a love comes into this, but what I'm going to say is the authority my dream was about and where the Lord has taken me and has really gotten me into a much more tender place than I've ever been in my life, is that now, when there's a problem, and Connor finally understood about five days ago, we did this and he gave up on all that. So he's not going to try to talk, he's not going to try to be healed, god's grace. So I just want anybody listening here. I'm just going to say this Whatever the thorn is, okay, the thorn is not there so that you can decree and declare it out. You know asking God to keep removing it. But you can decree and declare it out. You know asking God to keep removing it.
Speaker 2:The lesson is that his grace, his effectual, not his. You don't deserve it, but I might do it if your faith is strong enough. Not that okay. His grace, his, the way, the word, what the word really means, his effectual power working in your heart is sufficient for whatever you are battling right now and to the extent you can just let go of the fight and surrender, his power will be made perfect. To the extent that you will be weak and you'll see dramatic and incredible healing, and I believe, through time, as we study the saints that have done amazing things for the kingdom of God before and after in the early church, you're going to find you know, we've heard a lot of language for it laid-down lovers, we've got all this charismatic language, but you're going to find people who had come to the revelation and the inner place of the power of God, expressed and demonstrated from before the foundation of the world through eternity, and now in the bloody lamb known as Jesus Christ powerful, powerful, powerful.
Speaker 1:There's a Eternity and now in the bloody lamb known as Jesus Christ, powerful, powerful, powerful. There's a. There's we, we honor Jesus, we honor Jesus, we honor Jesus. But also Tracy, there's a. There's a term called Ish Elohim. Ish Elohim means man of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:And it pertains to a prophetic man of God, and I want you to know that I consider you to be an Ish Elohim. I hadn't heard that. I want you to know that I consider you to be an Ish Elohim. You are a man of God that carries a prophetic along with other things, along with other things, but in this instance, you carry a prophetic word and you're hosting the glory of the Lord and you are an Ish Elohim. And so, as a man of God, would you just kind of encapsulate this in a word of prayer and then we'll say goodbye.
Speaker 2:Yeah, father, just thank you for everybody that would take, everyone that would take the time to listen to this, everyone that would take the time to receive this and search their own hearts, that your grace would be made known. The sufficiency of your grace will be made known to everyone that hears power of your body is going to move in, as we understand that everything that needs to be done for victory has been done and we really understand that, and I thank you for David and this podcast, for David's health and his family's health, and we just want to bless every listener of Life Around the Fire bless every listener of life around the fire.
Speaker 2:And again, fire falls on the sacrifice, not on the altar. So I just thank you, father, that we could embrace sacrificial lives wherever you would call us to sacrifice and lay down our lives completely, that we would do that. That you give everyone courage to do that so that they could have the fire of God In.
Speaker 1:Jesus' name. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:In Jesus Christ's name, yeah, amen.
Speaker 1:Once again, folks, as much as we can be, we're here for you and, for sure, if you have any thoughts, questions, concerns, you can drop us a line at lifearoundthefire, at gmailcom. That's our email address, and if you're just interested in seeing our blog and some worship music and some of the things that we're adding to our website, just type in lifearoundthefire and we'd love to hear from you. Yeah, in the meantime, god bless you, adios amigos.