Cash Flow as a Weapon: Outside The Box Cash Flow Improvement Ideas

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ℹ ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What if cash flow wasn't something that happened to your business, but a weapon you used to protect your profit?

In this episode, Wade Carpenter and Stephen Brown share real contractor stories and practical strategies to help you stop financing jobs for owners and start structuring deals on your terms. 

From joint accounts and owner-purchased materials to retainage negotiation and maintenance agreements, you'll walk away with actionable ideas to take control of your cash flow today.

⌚️ Key moments in this episode:

• 00:00 Cash Flow Mindset Shift
• 02:13 Concrete Job Turnaround
• 03:36 Owner Pays Materials Strategy
• 05:37 Prefunded Joint Accounts
• 08:02 Dell Model Cash Lessons
• 09:26 Trade Margin For Terms
• 11:14 Financing Options And Discounts
• 12:49 Change Orders And Procurement Phases
• 14:40 Funds Control And Billing Cadence
• 15:40 Deposits Retainage And Scheduling
• 19:34 Capacity Premium And Maintenance Fees
• 22:04 Wrap Up And Next Steps

The Contractor Profit Blueprint is a complete guide that breaks down exactly how to identify where your money's going and start keeping more of it. This isn't theory. It's the same framework I use with contractors I work with every single day.

Head to profitfirstconstruction.com/blueprint to download your free copy. 

Stop working for free. Let's get you keeping what you've earned.

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Find all episodes and related links at ContractorSuccessForum.com.

Join the conversation on our LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/CarpenterCPAs
   
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Wade Carpenter, CPA, CGMA | CarpenterCPAs.com
Stephen Brown, Bonding Expert | SuretyAnswers.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Wade Carpenter: What if cash flow isn't something that happens to your construction business? What if it's [00:00:05] something you can use against the job before the job uses it against you?

[00:00:10] Today we're talking about what happens when contractors stop acting like cash flow is [00:00:15] happening to them, and start managing it like something they can actually [00:00:20] control.

This is the Contractor Success Forum. I'm Wade Carpenter with Carpenter Company CPAs, alongside Stephen Brown [00:00:25] with McDaniel-Whitley Bonding & Insurance.

And Stephen, I think this is where things get [00:00:30] interesting. It's one thing to say, "How do we deal with cash flow problems?" But maybe the better [00:00:35] question is, how do we get out in front of it?

How do contractors structure the [00:00:40] job, when they can, so that cash becomes something they're managing on [00:00:45] purpose instead of something that just happens to them?

Stephen Brown: I love the topic. And Wade, [00:00:50] Cash Flow as a Weapon, what a great title. I hope that gets people's attention. Cash flow [00:00:55] doesn't have to be a passive nightmare that you have to deal with. You can structure [00:01:00] things as if it was a weapon. I can't wait to get into this.

As always, we spend some [00:01:05] time together talking about what we want our listeners to know.

The power of cash [00:01:10] flow and the financing, a lot of times contractors may not even realize how much [00:01:15] financing is going on their end on a job. So we're gonna get into all that.

And Wade, I [00:01:20] know all our listeners are gonna have some great practical ideas how to improve their cash flow. And when you're improving [00:01:25] your cash flow, you're improving your bottom line. It just goes straight into your pocketbook, doesn't [00:01:30] it?

Wade Carpenter: Yeah. And I know when I came up with that title, Cash Flow as a Weapon, I was sitting there thinking [00:01:35] how contractors, sometimes the owner or whatever is using cash flow against the [00:01:40] contractor. How can we turn that around?

That's where I'm trying to think about some of [00:01:45] the outside the box thinking to make sure that the contractors stop financing the job for the [00:01:50] owners.

We gotta be practical, but I've come up with some things that some [00:01:55] of my contractors have actually done, that sort of outside the box thinking. It's not rocket science, [00:02:00] but you know, it significantly helped their cash flow.

So just some things I wanted to kick around [00:02:05] and maybe some ideas and hopefully our listeners get something out of this, if it sparks a different [00:02:10] idea for you, that's what it's all about.

Stephen Brown: Sounds great. Let's go

Wade Carpenter: I think we may have talked about [00:02:15] this years ago, but I had a concrete contractor that they were growing big time [00:02:20] and they were struggling. They got a huge job. The general loved their work, [00:02:25] but they were stretched pretty thin, especially covering concrete material [00:02:30] prices.

This general contractor was stretching them out 60 days. They were struggling to cash flow [00:02:35] this thing. It was a huge growth job for them.

They were trying to negotiate with this general [00:02:40] contractor. They had been providing all the materials and the sub really liked picking up the [00:02:45] markup on that. But he was thinking "I can't really cash flow this."

Long story [00:02:50] short, he gave up the material and let them pay for it directly. They didn't have that [00:02:55] burden, but they negotiated, " you keep this margin and you're gonna pay us every two weeks [00:03:00] like clockwork." No retainage and stuff like that. So they were able to actually [00:03:05] grow through it.

Part of the message today is a lot of people do not understand [00:03:10] how much financing a job for an owner or general contractor really costs [00:03:15] them.

And so they were able to cash flow this job that they really wanted it bonded, but they were in [00:03:20] a position they couldn't bond and there was no way they could've cash flowed it.

So it [00:03:25] was a win-win for everybody, and it actually turned out as one of the more profitable jobs when it was all said and [00:03:30] done, the way they worked it.

Stephen Brown: Yeah. That's great, and it's thinking out of the box figuring out a [00:03:35] way to solve your problem. I guess that's a good point, Wade, about materials. Giving up [00:03:40] their margin on the materials.

If a contractor went in and said, first of [00:03:45] all, they bid the job as a unit price, and the materials are in there with their margin built [00:03:50] in. Maybe you should go in there with your materials at the unit price and put the margin in other [00:03:55] places on the line item so you can go back and negotiate that off.

I'm just saying, [00:04:00] most contractors are gonna say "why in the world would I give up my margin on my materials? [00:04:05] I'm not even doing any work for that."

And so I guess it's the mindset of, you're paying the [00:04:10] material suppliers directly and negotiating the best price you can get. That [00:04:15] game kind of goes away when you let the owners pay for the materials. And it doesn't have to cost [00:04:20] you out of the job, because remember, you're bidding against other people that are doing the same thing.

Wade Carpenter: [00:04:25] Yeah. And, you also think about in his case, we didn't have to deal with the payables. [00:04:30] We didn't have to, like, the rebar supplier. Some of the suppliers are just a mess to deal with.

[00:04:35] You know, you end up in disputes with rebar. The hassle they gave up was more [00:04:40] than made up for in margin.

And they were actually able to turn things... we talk about the [00:04:45] throughput of how fast you're turning margin. And so in their case, it was a win. And, [00:04:50] without going into a lot of details, that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about here.

Nobody wants to give up [00:04:55] anything, but can you use it in your negotiation? It was part of the point for [00:05:00] today.

Stephen Brown: Now that's a great point. Hey, you remember too how much it will help when materials [00:05:05] are scarce and hard to get. That owner can take your price and order your [00:05:10] materials from your supplier and have that price locked in. It has to [00:05:15] be tied into your contract and your supplier.

You've already negotiated for the owner, so [00:05:20] you've done them a huge service, and you're probably making the material supplier happy [00:05:25] that they're getting paid so fast. And that might get you better prices in the future as [00:05:30] well. And on this particular job, it might help you get the job, which in return would help you charge [00:05:35] more margin on your other stuff.

Wade Carpenter: Yeah. So if it's all right, let me talk about another one that [00:05:40] I've had the last few years I've been working with this contractor, probably five, six years at least.

They did a [00:05:45] mix of commercial and some custom building residential [00:05:50] stuff. It's common for a custom home builder like, "Hey, you gotta fund the job out of your [00:05:55] construction draws or whatever."

But in this case, a lot of them were either the commercial [00:06:00] owners or a private individual, they didn't really care where the money was coming from. [00:06:05] But what they did, which, they took the idea of let's pre-fund the [00:06:10] job, and they created bank accounts.

I know we talk about doing bank accounts for Profit First, [00:06:15] in this case there are some challenges to it.

But what he ended up doing was having a [00:06:20] joint checking account with the owner of the job, and the contractor [00:06:25] controlled it, so they had to pre-fund everything. They got paid their labor, they paid all the [00:06:30] stuff and like I said, I could probably go into the details here, but this contractor was struggling to [00:06:35] survive.

When they started doing that, number one, all the cash flow issues were [00:06:40] gone. When they did a construction draw at the end of the month, they took their profit straight out of that account. [00:06:45] They moved it in their own personal account. They controlled it all, and that's the deal they started [00:06:50] doing with all their owners.

I know it's probably not a novel approach, but this company really has [00:06:55] taken off by doing it, and their margin has gone through the roof, because the other people [00:07:00] are paying for a lot of the stuff up front themselves.

And so [00:07:05] now they've recently been approached by somebody that wants to buy them at a multiple that [00:07:10] I can't believe. They have no cash flow problems. And I know that's a stupid, simple [00:07:15] thing, but that's... You're laughing. I see you smiling. But does that [00:07:20] make sense to you? 

Stephen Brown: No, it's fabulous. It really is. It's the way it needs to be. We always [00:07:25] talk about all the risk involved in construction, and there just seems to be a limit to how much money [00:07:30] you can make and no limit to how much money you can lose.

In this situation, you're [00:07:35] forming a true partnership. I can't tell you how many contractors go under because [00:07:40] of not getting paid.

If you've got a good owner and you present this to them properly, this [00:07:45] is a win-win for everyone. This is how we do it. This is how we make things happen fast. [00:07:50] This is how we have our subs and our people there quickly, because we're paying [00:07:55] them quickly, and you know that expression fast pay makes fast friends? Nothing's more true in the [00:08:00] construction industry.

Wade Carpenter: Yeah. This particular case still remind-- which sort [00:08:05] of our cash flow model, we don't have receivables. And it goes back to the lesson from [00:08:10] Dell Computers from way back.

And if you don't know the story of that, most [00:08:15] computer manufacturers, like IBM or whatever, they were building their own computers and, they would [00:08:20] stock up some inventory, you know, and by the time they got them to the shelves and everything, [00:08:25] and they would sell just like traditional manufacturer. Basically by the [00:08:30] time it got to the shelves, it was outdated computers.

And Michael Dell started doing this out of his [00:08:35] garage when he was in college, and basically you paid up front, you got the [00:08:40] latest components. You customized it. And he never had cash flow–he had [00:08:45] negative AR basically. He got his cash flow up front, so that's how he was able to grow it [00:08:50] from his garage into the empire that Dell was several years ago. They're still a formidable [00:08:55] company, but they stopped that model. But, it gave the customer what they wanted, [00:09:00] more current components, and really at a price that... because the price of computer [00:09:05] components were dropping all the time.

Stephen Brown: It's a great analogy, and how you apply that to construction [00:09:10] is the purpose of this podcast. It's how you manage things ahead of time and deliver a better [00:09:15] product, improve your cash flow, improve your reputation, and remove a lot of your [00:09:20] stress.

There's always something you can do, and hopefully this podcast is helping everybody think about [00:09:25] what those things are.

Wade Carpenter: I had several things on the list, so, maybe we just throw out some of these.

I have [00:09:30] seen people lower the price, for whatever reason, we're gonna lower the price [00:09:35] to get the work or, just hey, we're always doing somebody a favor, and one day they'll [00:09:40] repay the favor, and sometimes that never comes.

But, if you know your margin and you know [00:09:45] what it costs, going back to what I was saying before, how much does it take to [00:09:50] finance that job?

I had some other people doing was lowering the price in exchange for better cash [00:09:55] terms, a spin on what we were talking about. But, especially if you're talking about something like retainage [00:10:00] or making sure your crew gets paid.

I've had people say to the owner, "You gotta pay me every week so I can pay my [00:10:05] people every week." We'll give up 1 or 2% margin. And it's been a way when [00:10:10] contractors need to grow and they don't have the cash flow. I'm not saying give up margin and know your numbers, [00:10:15] but, what's your thoughts on that?

Stephen Brown: No I think that's right on the money, Wade. where is your [00:10:20] margin? We were talking about that before the podcast. Where are you placing your margin? When you [00:10:25] bid a project and it's unit price is on there, that's when you're negotiating cash flow after you've [00:10:30] been awarded low bid on the job.

Then you can go in and say, " Here's what I can [00:10:35] do for you." And a lot of times you find out in those negotiations, too, [00:10:40] about the financing. How secure is it? How many contractors don't really know that [00:10:45] money's there to pay them?

You bid $2 billion on a job, and that owner has only got [00:10:50] half of it set aside, and then they're gonna finance the rest of it as the construction [00:10:55] gets done. Or there's a grant involved and there's not enough grant money, if it's a municipal [00:11:00] job, to help you fund the project.

You never know how you're gonna get paid, so anything [00:11:05] you can do to negotiate this with them after you've bid the job, and also [00:11:10] pre-bid when you're meeting with the new client, that's everything.

Wade Carpenter: Yeah, absolutely. [00:11:15] You talk about financing too. That sort of leads into the next one I wanted to kick around, was allowing the [00:11:20] customer to choose their financing model.

There are some contractors out there that probably have some kind of [00:11:25] financing like homeowner or whatever, and they have a company on the back end that will fund the [00:11:30] project.

But, even if you're not doing something like that, maybe you're dealing with the [00:11:35] owner, you can say, "Okay, here's the price if you do it like this, or here's the price if you [00:11:40] pay us upfront."

Again, we could probably do a whole episode on, really, the cost [00:11:45] of sitting there waiting 30, 60, 90 days to get paid or not getting paid at all. That [00:11:50] opportunity cost and the ability to turn things faster, that's the kind of things that I'm talking [00:11:55] about here.

So I guess the next idea was just, whether you're using a finance company or something [00:12:00] like that, giving your customer like, okay, you can give me, do this, as a spin on what we were talking about a while [00:12:05] ago.

I'll give you a little margin difference if you will do this for me on the cash flow. Does that make sense? 

Stephen Brown: [00:12:10] Makes perfect sense.

Wade Carpenter: And again, people do this all this stuff all the time, payment terms. [00:12:15] Basically you're financing them. A lot of people will give a discount, I would say. Okay, you pay [00:12:20] me in 10 days, we'll give a discount. But instead of that, say if it's over 30 days, [00:12:25] it's 1% or 2%, that's just another way to think about, like, how can we [00:12:30] encourage the cash flow to be sped up? And if they're gonna take extra time, it is costing you extra [00:12:35] money. 

Stephen Brown: Absolutely. That's great advice. Get that set up before you start the project. [00:12:40] Provide options that work for you no matter what they choose.

Remember, that contract [00:12:45] has to absolutely tie into what the two of you have agreed on so you can enforce it. [00:12:50] Because in construction, there are changes that come up, and then you have to communicate those [00:12:55] costs and then be comfortable that the owner can afford for that change.

We were talking [00:13:00] about that before, change orders sound so wonderful because you can put a good margin on it. [00:13:05] That's what everybody loves about change orders. But if the money's not there to pay for that change order, [00:13:10] doesn't matter how much you've marked it up or how excited you are about it. You gotta collect it.

[00:13:15] I see that all the time, Wade, I really do. These change orders not being paid.

Wade Carpenter: [00:13:20] Right. That's one of the things that we talk about all the time is like, if you wanna get paid, get your change orders [00:13:25] in order and having your processes down. 

Stephen Brown: Right.

Wade Carpenter: But several of these other things, there are just spins [00:13:30] on some of them. Whether you're converting the materials into owner purchase or something like, [00:13:35] okay, I have seen an electrical contractor do this, is having the procurement part [00:13:40] as a separate part of the job, and having different terms.

So basically, whether you call it, [00:13:45] part A and part B of the contract, they basically had it as a different phase. And it [00:13:50] sometimes creates some challenges to keep up with, but it allowed the contractor to fund some [00:13:55] of the... I mean, it was a pretty heavy material bill that they had to cover.

Stephen Brown: No, that's huge. We were [00:14:00] talking too about the controlling of the materials is something that is literally, your [00:14:05] success as a contractor depends on your years of experience with those material suppliers and [00:14:10] what you can get done, maybe that someone else can't get done. And there's a price for [00:14:15] that.

You can't just give up a markup on materials when you've done all the procurement, you've [00:14:20] done all the pricing, you've made sure the estimating is just right exactly the way you need it [00:14:25] to be in the contract to get the job done. So it's kinda hard to give that up. You [00:14:30] still let the owner pay for the materials up front to improve cash flow, but you charge them for [00:14:35] that service up front.

You build that into the rest of your margin, right? 

Wade Carpenter: Yeah.

Just a [00:14:40] couple other thoughts. Like I said, weekly billing versus a monthly billing. Do they have to just [00:14:45] get them? We've already talked about some of that in the previous one, but also was sitting there [00:14:50] thinking about one of them that was on funds control for a bond.

The assumption was they're gonna [00:14:55] bill it every month, but they were burning off work every week. So they were getting this stuff [00:15:00] funded up front and, it was sitting in the escrow agent's bank account for them, but they [00:15:05] didn't have the cash.

So basically we negotiated where we can... you probably [00:15:10] could talk about this better than I could, but some of these fund control companies, we were turning in every week. Once we [00:15:15] started that, it wasn't such a bad issue. Otherwise people hate funds control. [00:15:20] Negotiating how do we cash flow this? Thoughts on that? 

Stephen Brown: No, that's exactly right. [00:15:25] funds control definitely serves its purpose. Some people actually do like it in the [00:15:30] process. But those are the contractors that are always struggling with cash flow. This is just a [00:15:35] situation that helps everything get managed up front, communicated up front.

That's a good [00:15:40] point.

Wade Carpenter: Okay. Here's another one, just sort of a different spins on it. Sometimes people will ask [00:15:45] for a deposit up front or mobilization, whatever. typically they will do [00:15:50] that mobilization and then they get that money and then they get into like, okay, we gotta wait 30, 60, 90 [00:15:55] days.

Deposits can be a dangerous thing, because I've seen some contractors that keep a [00:16:00] perpetual deposit and they end up using it on other jobs, and I've seen them get upside [00:16:05] down. But when it's done properly, instead of just saying this is an upfront deposit, [00:16:10] have some automatic replenishment.

It's sort of a different spin on the one I was telling you about. Okay, [00:16:15] when the funds get low in our deposits account, you're gonna automatically replenish [00:16:20] it whether, we bill it or not so to keep it running. So that was a different spin I had [00:16:25] seen.

Some of the rest of them, separating your profit from reimbursing for materials [00:16:30] and that kind of stuff. Can you work out different terms so that you're covering your overhead or something [00:16:35] like that?

I know we keep going back to materials here, but if you've got some materials and [00:16:40] they want to lock in price certainty, and I know a lot of people started doing that after COVID, [00:16:45] but they will have a provision in, in the contract where this is all we're gonna pay for the [00:16:50] materials.

If you're giving up that, basically the ability to adjust the price [00:16:55] based on materials, can you negotiate the price certainty for some kind of [00:17:00] payment certainty? If you're gonna require me to do that, it's just another idea on [00:17:05] contract language.

How can we, you know, If we're gonna lock in this price, you have to pay me on a certain [00:17:10] schedule. 

Stephen Brown: Yeah

Wade Carpenter: A lot of these that I had on the list. Pricing a job based [00:17:15] on your cash exposure. I don't wanna dig too deep into that one.

[00:17:20] Require funding based on scheduling. We're not gonna schedule it until you actually get [00:17:25] the first draw in.

Several of these are just common sense. Here's a milestone that you can [00:17:30] see. Once you see that, you gotta give me some cash. 

Stephen Brown: We've talked before too, Wade, [00:17:35] about retainage, and your comment was make it optional but expensive.

How [00:17:40] many times you think of retainage as a necessary evil of doing business? But if it's a [00:17:45] bonded project there should be no retainage. I know federal jobs retainage has been [00:17:50] eliminated.

It's an ancient practice to try to control you. It means that they are [00:17:55] holding back 5% in case you don't do your end of the work. And why would [00:18:00] you accept that unless you let them know it's gonna cost you to withhold retainage from [00:18:05] me, it's gonna make more sense not to.

Why would anyone wanna hold retainage on a [00:18:10] contractor? Maybe if it's an unbonded project and there's a lot of moving parts, or there's [00:18:15] subs coming back that saying they're not getting paid or filing liens on the job. But then again, if I [00:18:20] was a private owner, I'd recommend that you bond the project, and you wouldn't have to worry about any of that.

But I [00:18:25] thought that was a good point.

Wade Carpenter: Okay. Well, This is led into the next one.

It's a smart [00:18:30] idea to bond a project, but if they just basically fear giving money directly to a [00:18:35] contractor, versus, the contractor's like, "Okay this owner's just gonna hold out on [00:18:40] everything."

Just going back to custom home building, like, okay, a lot of people don't know what in the world they're doing, [00:18:45] so maybe letting a third party hold the money.

The money gets funded and somebody, [00:18:50] third party, we see that sometimes with a bank or funding company will release the retainage, or [00:18:55] they will send somebody out there to verify that the work's been done, but they don't hold the [00:19:00] money.

I'll run through some of the rest of them really quick.

Negotiating with suppliers around the project [00:19:05] cash cycle, when they get paid. So instead of okay, if they normally give you 30 days, this one's [00:19:10] gonna be a little bigger. They pay us in 60 days, can we get some kind of terms on that?

[00:19:15] These are just things to help with the cash flow. Again, different spins or whether we're talking about [00:19:20] exchanging margin for a guarantee, whether they're gonna pay or, I hate to get into like joint [00:19:25] checks and stuff like that, but just a lot of different ways that I'm trying to think about, like [00:19:30] how is it that we can use cash as a weapon instead of having it used against us?

We've [00:19:35] got contractors too that have a backlog and the get [00:19:40] to it. And I thought this one was interesting. I saw one contractor do it in, I think [00:19:45] it was Oklahoma. He was selling basically it was a margin, like he was [00:19:50] reservations for selling his capacity. I don't know how to better say it than that, [00:19:55] but he was getting a premium because they wanted people out there. So that was [00:20:00] interesting to see that one. 

Stephen Brown: Now that's a great way of thinking about it. That nobody's ever [00:20:05] heard of that. You just say yeah I can get there, but my price is gonna be [00:20:10] this." But you're also communicating to the owner this is my capacity what you're taking [00:20:15] away from it is the other, higher margins I can get.

Because not just my [00:20:20] capacity, but everyone else out there that wants to supply what you need is [00:20:25] slammed right now.

Wade Carpenter: Yeah. Last one I'm gonna throw out here. The work you [00:20:30] do, a lot of people are like, "Okay, we're, just gonna warranty the work or whatever." But could [00:20:35] you have a fee for preventative maintenance or tacking that onto the job? [00:20:40] Just like a HVAC company sells like, "Okay, we just installed your air conditioner. We're gonna [00:20:45] have a maintenance agreement." Why not? Why not think about stuff like that for mechanical [00:20:50] systems or what, you know?

Stephen Brown: That's a great idea, especially say you were doing plant [00:20:55] work where you're guaranteeing your product for 12 months, but you're saying, "We'll come on and we'll [00:21:00] work with your staff on the continuing maintenance of the work we just supplied you." That's a [00:21:05] great idea.

Instead of just giving you the project and all the complexities of that [00:21:10] project right off the bat, we'll stay with you for X number of time for [00:21:15] X amount of fee.

That's a great idea.

Wade Carpenter: Well, people don't think about stuff like that. [00:21:20] When they're slow or something like that, or it's like facility maintenance or whatever, and when they're [00:21:25] slow in the winter or something like that. Just maybe pulling out, that's the time we can go do some [00:21:30] maintenance.

There's probably some requirements, depending on the job, for warranty on the [00:21:35] work, but is there any reason we couldn't have extended-- I mean, your car warranty, let's have [00:21:40] extended warranty, you know, just different ways to add to cash flow. 

Stephen Brown: Contractors that have [00:21:45] separate maintenance divisions can certainly use this as part of the negotiation of saying, "We'll [00:21:50] provide you X amount of maintenance. Then you get to see how good we are at helping you maintain it. We can [00:21:55] do it more cost effectively and better than you can."

So there you go. You've got a [00:22:00] customer and you've increased your cash flow and you've leveled it out with that idea

Wade Carpenter: I [00:22:05] hope we threw out some things that maybe made our contractors think out there instead of letting cash [00:22:10] happen to you, use it as a weapon for your own profitability. 

Stephen Brown: Sounds great.

Wade Carpenter: [00:22:15] All right. If you got anything out of this, we appreciate it. If you would like, share, subscribe, it always [00:22:20] helps the channel out. If you have other thoughts or comments, drop them down in the notes [00:22:25] below. We read every single one of them. We always appreciate it.

We do this every single [00:22:30] week, and we will see you on the next show.