Imagine opening your heart to a complete stranger in one of the most profound ways possible. That's exactly what our guests, Josiah Wolfson and Kat Gordon, did when they each made the life-affirming decision to donate a kidney to someone they'd never met. Their compelling stories of self-discovery and transformation are sure to resonate deeply, as they recount the moments that led them to donate.
Josiah, a former lawyer turned spiritual nomad, describes an epic pandemic filled with change and growth, where the serenity of crafting a cob house in South America became a metaphor for rebuilding his own life's purpose. His narrative is a remarkable odyssey from the courtroom to the mountains, culminating in a gift that transcends the self. Kat, on the other hand, brings us into the fold of her own initial skepticism and the journey to understanding the profound impact one person can have. Together, they peel back the layers of their experiences, revealing the personal epiphanies and societal misconceptions that often accompany the complex giving of an organ.
We cap off this inspiring dialogue by examining the unexpected waves made by kidney donations, from the donors' enhanced health and perspectives to the creation of a tightly-knit community—a 'tribe'—bound by their shared altruistic choice. Their narratives illuminate the human capacity for connection, and the life-altering joy that stems from helping someone in need. Listen to the full episode for a heartfelt exploration of the rippling effects of kindness and the unexpected journeys that can unfold when you decide to share your most personal parts, with a stranger.
Show Notes
Living in Paz TicToc
Living in Paz Instagram
Living in Paz YouTube (Espanol)
Living in Paz YouTube (English)
Demonstration of a non-directed donor starting a chain
The Power of non-directed donation (story)
Why we donated kidneys to strangers
What Makes a Person Decide to Donate His Kidney to a Stranger
Patty describing her non-directed donation
how the Family Voucher Program
Imagine opening your heart to a complete stranger in one of the most profound ways possible. That's exactly what our guests, Josiah Wolfson and Kat Gordon, did when they each made the life-affirming decision to donate a kidney to someone they'd never met. Their compelling stories of self-discovery and transformation are sure to resonate deeply, as they recount the moments that led them to donate.
Josiah, a former lawyer turned spiritual nomad, describes an epic pandemic filled with change and growth, where the serenity of crafting a cob house in South America became a metaphor for rebuilding his own life's purpose. His narrative is a remarkable odyssey from the courtroom to the mountains, culminating in a gift that transcends the self. Kat, on the other hand, brings us into the fold of her own initial skepticism and the journey to understanding the profound impact one person can have. Together, they peel back the layers of their experiences, revealing the personal epiphanies and societal misconceptions that often accompany the complex giving of an organ.
We cap off this inspiring dialogue by examining the unexpected waves made by kidney donations, from the donors' enhanced health and perspectives to the creation of a tightly-knit community—a 'tribe'—bound by their shared altruistic choice. Their narratives illuminate the human capacity for connection, and the life-altering joy that stems from helping someone in need. Listen to the full episode for a heartfelt exploration of the rippling effects of kindness and the unexpected journeys that can unfold when you decide to share your most personal parts, with a stranger.
Show Notes
Living in Paz TicToc
Living in Paz Instagram
Living in Paz YouTube (Espanol)
Living in Paz YouTube (English)
Demonstration of a non-directed donor starting a chain
The Power of non-directed donation (story)
Why we donated kidneys to strangers
What Makes a Person Decide to Donate His Kidney to a Stranger
Patty describing her non-directed donation
how the Family Voucher Program
One of the things I like to think about is how much we have to gain from loving a stranger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love is critical, it's everything, and when you do something like this based on love, it just is magnified throughout the world. I would say I just want to feel the sunshine.
Speaker 1:I just want to feel the sunshine. Oh, who donates a kidney to a complete stranger? Just because Non-directed donors do, and we call them NDDs. I pulled up the data on the Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network website and here's what I found about NDDs as of this month, about 4,400 Americans have donated a kidney to a stranger Total like in the history of non-directed donation the first NDD donated in 1988, and a decade later the second and third donated. The first big increase was in 2000, when a whopping 20 Americans donated kidneys to strangers, and you better believe that these 20 donors faced a lot of scrutiny. This was far from normalized and their motives were often questioned. For the last several years, between 300 and 400 people donated as an NDD each year. 91% of NDDs are white and 60% are women. Age 35 to 49 is the most common age bracket to donate. Today, I'm interviewing Josiah Wolfson and Kat Gordon, two non-directed donors who will share what their why was when they decided to donate a kidney to a stranger. Welcome to Donor Diaries, josiah. How are you today?
Speaker 3:I'm doing well. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this has been a long time coming, so I'm excited to finally have this interview with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's go for it.
Speaker 1:I know our audience can't see you, but you kind of are dressed like a gaucho right now and you have this beautiful stone wall that looks like hand-built with beautiful wood behind you. Where are you calling in from today?
Speaker 3:So I'm in Mendoza, about to head down to Patagonia, here in Argentina. I've been here for just over a week, but have been on the road for the last few years. So I'll be here with Laura for the next 90 days, and then our travels will continue.
Speaker 1:What does being on the road for the last two years even mean? Tell us a little more about that.
Speaker 3:Well, I practiced law. I was an attorney. I still am an attorney I'm not practicing anymore in Miami for about six years and then I guess I came to a crossroads in my life which is related to donating a kidney where I knew that I didn't want to continue in that direction and Laura and I built out a sprinter van, hit the road for a year and that transitioned into backpacking, building our own house, living more sustainably, a little bit off grid. So the travels are in large part related to visa issues, us wanting to stay together and not being able to be in the same country for more than 90 days. But yeah, just a different way of life.
Speaker 1:Incredible. So Laura is your wife.
Speaker 3:She is. Yeah, we've been married almost two years. She's from Colombia. We were in the States. We met in 2019 just for a night in Miami, and then reconnected during the pandemic a couple years later, when I was building out the van, and we've been traveling together ever since.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. And where did you build your house?
Speaker 3:In Colombia, in the region of Santander, towards the Venezuelan border. Her family has some property out there, and I was always fascinated with cob, which is a mixture of sand, clay and straw, and so we had some time and we figured, you know, let's, let's try something different. And so, with the help of some YouTube videos, we started building and we finished our tiny home last year.
Speaker 1:Wow, so you can actually watch YouTube and learn how to build a house.
Speaker 3:Yeah right, Isn't that wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you have a YouTube channel where you actually kind of talk about how to build a cob house, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah. It's kind of like escaping the system or alternative lifestyles, and building your own house is one of those. It's called Living in Paz P-A-Z, so that means peace. It was the name of our van that we built out.
Speaker 1:So you're somebody who made the best out of the pandemic and you created a whole new life for yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, something like that. I felt like there was a buildup prior to the pandemic, but it definitely helped give me that nudge of just having the time to reconsider my life and decide if it was in alignment with my higher self, of my true, authentic self, and so I made the jump. June of 2021 was when I quit my job and we moved into the van.
Speaker 1:And when did you and I meet?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was a. That was an interesting situation. So I had done this transformational training and I met a buddy of mine, albie, who was in it with me, and coming out of that I started talking about donating a kidney and I believe he went on like a men's retreat in Montana and he called me and he's like I met this guy on the retreat and he's married to this woman. That's like, just like you, she also wants to, like you know, cut out her organs and give them to people. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he said. I'm like, well, that's not exactly what I'm doing, but yeah, and and then you know we were connected and and you were the only person that I knew that had donated a kidney before donating. So unofficial mentor, right?
Speaker 1:I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Josiah, in this episode we're talking about why people donate kidneys to strangers. When did you start thinking about donating your kidney to a stranger?
Speaker 3:I guess it would have been the end of 2018. It was kind of a lightning strike moment in my life where I knew that I had to donate. It was one of those things that when I learned that I could live a healthy life with one kidney, I couldn't imagine not donating. I had been writing this ongoing list in my phone of just problems that I could see in the world that I didn't understand why they hadn't been solved, and one of them was kidney donation. I don't remember writing it, but I remember looking back at that note when I was writing something else and I saw it there and it just made me Google living kidney donation and I started researching it a little bit and learned that I could donate and for me it was, it was game over, like I knew for sure I was doing it.
Speaker 1:You describe it as a lightning strike, but you let the idea simmer. For what a decade.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it almost doesn't even feel like it was my idea back in 2007. Like, I put it in a note but it was something. It sounds kind of woo but like I guess, like passing through me, that I don't remember thinking about the idea. It was just like a moment of clarity that I wrote something down and moved on and didn't think about it again. And then when it resurfaced that clarity, it was like I was planting a seed that was ready to be harvested. You know, 10, 11 years later.
Speaker 1:So what made you want to donate a kidney?
Speaker 3:I don't necessarily know why I wanted to. I just felt like I had to and not had to, in a sense, like it was an obligation. I was forced. It was something inside of me that it felt so true, so clear. Those moments where it's like falling in love, I think, is the easiest way to compare it to something where, even if it doesn't make sense, even if you can't rationalize this person, everyone's telling you she's not right for you. Whatever it is, you just know at the core within you, some sort of higher self, that she's the one that you know donating a kidney is right for you, and I guess that's the easiest way to try to put words to the experience.
Speaker 1:I love the comparison to falling in love. I relate to that too, Like that's. That's kind of how it felt for me, the I let the idea simmer for six years when I decided that it was time to do it. I remember wanting to tell my family and just being super hopeful that everybody was going to support me in my decision, because it was so important to me and I just wanted that support and that ping back from the universe for my family that, yeah, this is the right thing to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny because in my case I definitely didn't get that ping back through my family. There was a lot of second guessing, there was pushback and in my experience that was what I needed. To make sure that that's what I wanted to do, because I decided to donate during the pandemic or right before, and so I went through the donation process at three different hospitals because they wouldn't let me proceed with it because of the pandemic. They considered it an elective surgery which, because it was non-directed, it was elective on my side, but obviously the recipient it's not an elective surgery. And I kept questioning if that was the universe trying to tell me not to donate. But that voice inside of me, in spite of all of the obstacles, it allowed me to get really clear that this was my journey, this is my path and I was able to take it with confidence.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's one of those things and I, as you know, I mentor a lot of people through the transplant process and I love talking to those people that know they want to donate no matter what comes up. They're so committed. And there are other people that feel an inclination to donate but they're not sure they want to. They're just kind of dipping their toes in the process and for me, I tried to get them to the point where they either know they don't want to donate or they know they do, but having as much information as possible to make an informed decision. And that's how I felt going into it. Like at the beginning I was like I know I want to donate, but I didn't really understand why. And throughout the process the doubts came. But I will say that from my decision to donate to the day I donated, I was more confident and clear that I wanted to donate on that last day than the first day, you know, a year or whatever it was before.
Speaker 1:So was it a red flag to the transplant centers that you were living in a van?
Speaker 3:You know, I don't know if I disclosed that honestly, I think I put my brother's address.
Speaker 1:I remember the first call that I had with you. I was looking at transplant centers that were available to you and stuff and you're like well, I could really go anywhere because I live in a van.
Speaker 3:And I think I said something to you in the lines of well, maybe don't mention that part I can't get you know hashtag van life.
Speaker 1:But you did not recover in the van, though you recovered in the comfort of somebody's home right.
Speaker 3:I did.
Speaker 3:I actually ended up at my parents' house.
Speaker 3:My now wife, lauda, was going to come to the US to my now wife. Lauda was going to come to the US to be my caregiver and she wasn't able to come into the States. She had a letter from my transplant center saying she was going to be my caregiver and she had a visa and everything, but they stopped her at the border saying that there was no way that someone was donating a kidney to someone they didn't know. They didn't believe her, they thought it was fraudulent and that for me was just like this I guess it was fraudulent and that for me, was just like this I guess aha moment where I wanted to be become an advocate, in large part because you know, tsa, like an average everyday person, thought that it was inconceivable that someone would donate a kidney to someone they didn't know and rejected entry to someone that said they were going to be a caregiver and it's like wow, we, we get to educate the population on the reality that this is a beautiful thing that people do and it should be believed, right.
Speaker 1:You said that you did get some pushback from friends and family. Can you tell us a little bit about what that looks like for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I'd been pretty independent from a young age. I'd done a lot of traveling and been on my own. But, you know, when you call your parents and your siblings and your friends and you tell them that you're going to go in for an operation where they're going to cut out one of your organs, I mean I think it's natural People don't know what that entails. People don't know the risks, people assume the worst. You know, they've seen a Grey's Anatomy episode and they think they know everything about it. And so, yeah, there was definitely some trepidation. There was some a lot of curiosity and a lot of pushback, but it was one of those things that they know how I am and that I was going to do what I was going to do, and so it was one of the. You know, it was something that they knew they weren't going to convince me not to do but they definitely made their opinions clear.
Speaker 1:I imagine too, when you paired I'm giving away a kidney, oh, and I'm quitting a job and moving into my van that that could have felt like red flags to the people around you, like uprooting everything that he's built.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny Cause it's certain people. It was absolutely like that. And then one of my like a family friend I call her my aunt. She wasn't surprised at all and she told me this story about someone had, like, robbed her and I went upstairs I was like four years old to my piggy bank and took out all of my money and was like, oh, I have, you know, this money for you. And she said that I was always the most giving, the most generous child she knew out of you know, out of the kids that she would watch.
Speaker 3:And somewhere along the way whether it's conditioning from society, whether it's, you know, just growing up, maturing, whatever you want to call it I became really selfish and I think it makes sense. I mean the career path that I chose. I was able to make a lot of money practicing law, representing very questionable people in a lot of cases, but I focused on myself. I was able to rationalize everything and once I, I guess, came full circle and decided to donate a kidney, that aunt was like, yeah, of course you're going to do that, like that's the Josiah I know. And it made me wonder why it took X amount of years to donate, to quote unquote. Reconnect with that childhood, josiah, and I mean at least my journey.
Speaker 3:I was really distracted. I was, you know, focused on a career. I was focused on making money, status, power, all those things that, whether directly or indirectly, were taught from a young age, at least in the Western world. And it's funny to me that I decided to donate a kidney while climbing up to Mount Everest base camp, because it was at the beginning of the pandemic, there was no one on the mountain and I was all alone with my own thoughts, with myself, and I was able to connect with my intuition in a way where it just became so clear and I imagine you can relate. But there are certain moments of clarity in your life that you might not be able to explain, but it's just, it's everything, you can't deny it. And in that moment I decided I was going to quit my job, I decided I was going to move into a van and I decided I was going to donate a kidney and that is so amazing.
Speaker 1:I love your story so much.
Speaker 3:I think so often it's easy to get stuck in the routine, the rat race, the noise, and just getting to slowly push the noise out. I was able to listen to that intuition that I felt like had been muted for quite some time.
Speaker 1:What did you gain from donating a kidney to a stranger, Josiah? What?
Speaker 3:did you gain from donating a kidney to a stranger, josiah? Oh, so much. A lot of people praise me I guess is the word I would use of like oh wow, you're such an amazing person for doing this and focus a lot on the recipient. But for me, donating had little to do with that individual and more to do with my spiritual journey. It was something that I guess.
Speaker 3:There are these moments in life where the knock comes at the door and you can answer it or you don't have to answer it, and I found that the more often you don't answer it, the less you hear the knock. I don't know if the knock's still coming and you don't hear it or it stops. And for me that's the intuition, that's the connection with my mind and my heart or my soul, whatever you want to call it. And I had this moment where, as I started doing these practices, where I was able to connect with myself, I also felt so much more connected with the universe, with humanity, with nature, and I could hear that knock. And answering that door was such an important moment for me in my spiritual journey in understanding that I was on the right path, that I was connecting to that knock, that I could hear it and that, listening to it, you might have a similar experience. But right before going under to donate, it was, I mean, this euphoric feeling of just like knowing that I was in the exact moment.
Speaker 1:So right, Like you're on path and doing what you're here meant to be doing.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that. So you mentioned that you mentor people who are considering donation. I'm curious do you ever feel like there's a type? Sometimes, when I'm talking to people on the phone, there's a way of being that non-directed donors have and there's certain things that they say and certain outlooks that they have that seem to be very common and consistent to me. Do you experience that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think I would put it as the difference between feeling like I have to donate and I get to donate. Those non-directed donors really see it, as I get to donate, like this unparalleled opportunity to save a life or to support someone in a very difficult moment in their life. And there are other people that love their family members or love their friends and they're like, oh, I have to save their life, or like it's just different and maybe it's a nuance with language, but for me that's a big distinction between the directed and non-directed donors in a lot of situations. I mean, you could find so many other differences.
Speaker 3:For me, it's like I was saying in my experience the more I connected with myself, the more connected I felt with the universe. And I know Abigail Marsh talks about empathy and for me empathy is an extension of connection, and so the umbrella of feeling connected to someone and then the specifics of feeling empathetic of the situation they're actually going through. For me, yeah, absolutely. I think when I meet other non-directed donors or potential non-directed donors, I feel more connected to them because I think they also just feel more connected to the whole ask questions, they get a clear picture of what does this mean, what does it look like, how is this going to affect my life?
Speaker 1:And then they ask the question well, why aren't other people doing this? And that's like a question that makes me so joyful when I hear somebody ask that is, non-directed donors seem to ask the question well, why wouldn't I do it? Versus well, why would I do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I think it's one of those things of is this too good to be true? Like what am I missing here? I went for a couple of weeks where I'm like there has to be something that I don't understand. Like what exactly what you said? Why isn't everyone doing this? And I think part of it is absolutely a lack of information, education on the topic, the risks uh, for me, like it was very much in line with my risk tolerance, like the things, the way I was living my life. It was yeah for sure. Like that's, this is the risk of a complication. Of course I'll do that. Like the risk reward, cost benefit analysis, it made sense, but we're not being taught that right. Like that's not a conversation people are having.
Speaker 1:Well, Josiah, if people want to learn more about your kidney donation and your adventures with Laura, how do they find you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I've done a couple episodes on living kidney donation living in Paz, P-A-Z. Whether it's Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, we have Spanish and English channels, so just make sure you're looking for English if you're an English speaker.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today, Josiah.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Who would have thought we would be sitting on your floor doing a podcast?
Speaker 1:Well, welcome to Donor Diaries, Kat. How are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm great. Thanks for having me, thanks for being here.
Speaker 1:So do you want to tell our audience what we're avoiding right now?
Speaker 2:Yes, we're avoiding dishes and also Easter egg cleanup. Yeah, so happy Easter, thank you.
Speaker 1:I don't know when do you want to start At the beginning? Okay, so, kat, tell us a little bit about how you and I came together. Let's start at that beginning. Is that the beginning you were referring to?
Speaker 2:We're aware of each other's existence when we were young women in Waukegan Harbor, and then fast forward a decade at least and we met again at the Goldman Sachs program in Chicago.
Speaker 1:So we were in this Goldman Sachs program. It was to help small businesses grow, Wonderful program. But I'll say for me the best thing about that program was the girlfriends that I made in the program, the other small business owners like you.
Speaker 2:Agreed. Yeah, that was the best thing to come out of it. We got some business advice, but whatever the relationship that came out of it between you and I was magic from the get-go, I believe.
Speaker 1:I think so too. I remember one of the projects we had was writing a vision, and in that vision there was a personal aspect. That was the first time I wrote down that I wanted to donate a kidney. I didn't know that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:And I also remember thinking, when I donate my kidney people will see how easy it is and they'll think that it was such a great idea, that why didn't they think of it? And that they were going to go then donate their kidneys. That's how I saw that happening. That's cute.
Speaker 2:I believe hearing about it for the first time, I was like you're crazy. Why would anyone do that? I had never met anyone who openly talked about this stuff. It just opened a world of questions in me and made me adore you even more for bringing up something that could challenge the average conversation.
Speaker 1:Huh, I don't remember you challenging it, though I do remember you asking a lot of questions, yeah.
Speaker 2:I had a lot of, I think, ego and fear surrounding my thoughts of what you were doing, because I didn't know you well enough yet and I didn't know why somebody would do this. Yeah, what challenged you about it? Well, you were the first and only person I had ever met to bring this up socially. I would say at you know, I mean, it's not easy to segue transplant talk into the average conversation. Oh, but you're an expert at doing that. Now, now you can slide it into just about any conversation. I feel like it has a place at any conversation. Super interesting.
Speaker 2:The only negative effects were me I think I said the phrase out loud like you're crazy, why would someone do that? And I think that's that has a negative connotation, because I had a lack of understanding and I'm sure there was ego and fear involved. Right, because I wouldn't. I at the time I was like I would never do that because I didn't understand it. I think that was also married with Well, she's a good person. She, of course she's doing that. I'm not a good person, so I would not do that. That I'm not a good person, so I would not do that. So, maybe a personal belief at the time. That was completely untrue. I mean, I've been a good person since I was a baby, so yeah, I think everyone's a good person.
Speaker 1:You're one of the kindest people I've ever met in my whole life, which is why you're one of my dearest friends, thank you. But so that's interesting that, even though you didn't get it, you were one of my friends who was really there for me and supportive of me and showed up and laid in bed with me when I was recovering.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think, just providing support. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to understand it, but if you can support the person in a real honest way, I think that I mean I'm lucky. When I decided to do this, I had a team of people rooting for me and some naysayers, but I didn't listen to those people.
Speaker 1:No, you can't, so fast forward a little bit. So over the last I don't know we've known each other close to 10 years now, I think you. You've heard me talk about kidneys a lot. So, yes, you're getting like a constant stream of kidney right from me, but then somebody else walked into your life that wanted to donate a kidney. Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we now have a mutual friend named Dave and he for a couple years he was involved in my sphere, I guess I would say, of my small business. I knew, connecting him with you and just your vast network of people, that you guys could answer any like questions, that he had any hesitations or just figuring out if he wanted to do it. I knew when Dave brought it up he was in, he was, he was doing it and I thought, well gosh, how could someone come to this decision and be just steadfast, not changing their mind? Then you would know it was the right thing. So after he went through his donation, it was an incredible experience. And then I had my own questions. So now I've known two donors and it just really got me thinking, wow, I have like an understanding of this, I see the value of doing this and I'm healthy and I'm going to do it.
Speaker 2:I knew I was going to do it. You didn't want to be the asshole at breakfast with two kidneys. Yeah, I wanted to be part of the one kidney club so bad that.
Speaker 2:I was like I got to do this and so, yeah, I guess I had already made up in my mind that I was going to do it before I sat down and had like a real conversation with you specifically about it. It felt like I had all the information I was going to do it, whatever it looked like. I wanted to come out the other side of it taking better care of myself. So now that I am on the other side of it, make really good decisions like eating a half a pint of gelato on Easter Sunday.
Speaker 2:But really, really consider what I did and give a gift back to myself of choosing to be a healthy person overall.
Speaker 1:So your own health is playing into your decision to donate. You thought I can do this and come out the other side as a person who's very committed to taking care of themselves and of your body. Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I didn't realize the extent of that. I feel like I was pretty healthy-ish before. There were some things that I wanted to cut out of my life and now it's a no-brainer to make good choices of everything that goes into my body now and just being at the gym and physically fit it.
Speaker 1:Really I feel so much better now giving those gifts to myself yeah, what was your motivation, would you say, for wanting to donate to a stranger?
Speaker 2:I think the motivation was giving a gift to the universe and seeing what the universe did with it. But yeah, so I. I think my motivation had to do with love, because, I mean, in my opinion, all good things are rooted in love.
Speaker 1:That's what organ donation is. It's love. It's the kindest act of love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, from the minute I decided, I never wavered.
Speaker 1:What a beautiful gift to be able to give your kidney away in such a healthy state like you did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels really good and, being on the other side, I think I'm still processing how special the situation was for me. What's interesting is that I don't know the feelings of the recipient, so I can only continue to process what I feel and I could pass away tomorrow, and in doing this, I feel very privileged to have done it. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. So doing it doesn't make you a good person. It doesn't make you Superior. Yeah, it doesn't make you a good person. It doesn't make you Superior. Yeah, it doesn't make you better than everybody. It does make you want to talk about kidneys all the time, and so I have had many encounters since then where I've had the privilege of talking to other people about their own kidney issues.
Speaker 2:I would say, and constantly since my donation, northwestern is the hospital that pops up for me. I don't know if it's because we're in Chicagoland, but I would say the people's doctor, dr Leventhal, is a pretty amazing human being. That's the other thing like on the other side of it, right, the support that I had at Northwestern. It was incredible. My nurse, jared Harmon, game changer. He got me up and out of bed and then I never looked back from there. I was in a recumbent bike the next day. I don't know if this is everybody's experience, but he was such a good caregiver.
Speaker 2:He brought out the parts of me that are super successful for healing and, yeah, between him and all the social workers, jennifer Cooper's bubbly energy, I mean you just it could not have failed. Like there was something in the air during my donor experience and we didn't talk about yet the fact that I didn't know if I was going to know my recipient. So the idea of just giving your kidney to whomever I believe is a wonderful gift, and the cool thing about giving a gift is you give it away and then you hope that it can make someone's life better. So I believe that happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you feel like you've gained from donating a kidney to a stranger?
Speaker 2:I think I have knowledge of ways to give back that never occurred to me, and by that I mean I've participated in the chain. The connectivity of being part of a paired exchange so you just don't know where it's going to end is a ripple effect. So if you think about all the people each one of us has told you, telling me what you were doing to me as a virtual chain, I would have never donated I can pretty much say that wholeheartedly had I never met you.
Speaker 1:And I never would have donated had my dad not needed a liver and some family that we don't know made the hard decision to donate their loved one's organs. So like I love how you come back to me and I point back behind me and say, well, I did it because of that guy. Right and it just shows that's the ripple effect, right Like that's my dad's donor to my dad, to me, to Dave, to you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And here we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like putting good ripples out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, weren't you and I are not part of a paired exchange? Yeah, I mean, weren't you and I are not part of a paired exchange? You, Dave, and I are not part of a paired exchange, but we're part of a chain of conversation that carries on like going anywhere. Now, it's a part of me, it's a part of my dialogue. I love talking about it, probably to a fault, you know. I mean just even on the most simple level, right, you can have a conversation. I love talking about it, probably to a fault, you know, I mean just even on the most simple level, right, you can have a conversation with somebody and they're like, wow, you can give a kidney and still be alive.
Speaker 1:I had no idea, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, that is one of the I would say, the biggest shockers of all of it. Right, I went back to work and everyone was shocked at my physical, like stature. Right, they're like whoa, you look normal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you look better than normal, in my opinion. Thank, you. And you look better than you did a year ago. You look great a year ago, but like thank you. Well, making your body as pristine as possible looks very good on you.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks, well, I'm doing it from the inside.
Speaker 1:You are. I'm glad it reflects from the outside. You are doing it from the inside out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I would say it's just. This whole experience just changed me. I wasn't flawed or broken before I did this. It brought out all the beautiful parts of me that remind me of, like, who I want to be in this world. Yeah, so I want to be fun, though I don't want to sweat the small stuff. I want to work hard. I want to surround myself with people that do good. It really brought all those things to the surface that were already there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you think our friends are going to get tired of going out and hearing about kidneys?
Speaker 2:with us as we drink our Heineken Zeros. Yes, I want to point out that you can drink after you have this done.
Speaker 1:I'm no doctor, but you know yes alcohol is processed in your liver, but we do enjoy a Heineken.
Speaker 2:Zero from time to time, yeah, I've traded my green juices for margaritas. No, you've traded your margaritas for your green juices.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, there we go, I'm getting it all backwards. Well, getting to walk with you on your journey to donate was a privilege for me.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Yeah, it was wonderful to have I felt so supported. I just really appreciated you to be a support to me and especially to my husband, who probably processed it after the fact that he wasn't thinking about it before. But yeah, just I felt very supported through the whole experience. So I am lucky that I got this done at Northwestern. I just feel like, are they paying you to there? I'm not a paid employee of Northwestern.
Speaker 1:Kat, what advice do you have for somebody who's considering non-directed donation?
Speaker 2:Call me.
Speaker 1:Okay, and we'll put Kat's phone number in the show notes.
Speaker 2:I would say ask questions. You know, get yourself affiliated with a person that has done it. I think is probably the most critical, because I was fortunate enough to know two people that had gone through it and I feel like I could have asked either you or Dave any question and you would have given me honest answers. So yeah, I would say number one get yourself in a group of people that you can ask questions to and give yourself time to plan and think about if this is really something you want to do. I would say don't put pressure on yourself for the why. You'll be asked why a million times, I'm sure, by your transplant coordinator, and you may not know why at first, but you'll know why after.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it, and I love what you said earlier too about love, because I just feel like this all comes back to love, and one of the things I like to think about is how much we have to gain from loving a stranger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love is critical, it's everything, and when you do something like this based on love, it just is magnified throughout the world. I would say yeah Well, keep shining your bright light, my friend. Yeah, I can feel the sunshine.
Speaker 1:Well, great. So I'm hoping that our husbands are done with dishes downstairs. I think it's safe to end this podcast now and head on down. Okay, thank you so much for being my guest. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And my friend. Thank you, love you. Sometimes I forget non-directed donation is not all that common and I forget that because I spend a lot of time with people like Kat and Josiah who donated kidneys to strangers. It's 100% normalized in my little bubble. Do we sit around talking about kidneys, you might wonder. Well, yeah, there's definitely some of that. But there's also an undeniable feeling that these people are part of a tribe, my tribe. There is so frequently a shared value system, an easy person-to-person connection and an undeniable magnetism that donors feel when they are together. That part goes way beyond kidneys. So if you find yourself yearning to share a kidney and you don't know why, know that there are people who feel that way too. Know that there's a community of people out there trying really, really hard to normalize kidney donation.
Speaker 1:Come join us. Just call CAT. You can contact me too. Check out our show notes for more information. Thanks for listening. I just want to feel the sunshine. I just want to feel the sunshine. I just want to feel the sunshine. I share this life with you. I share this life with you. I share this life with you.