SPEAKER_00: Because the sermon is a little bit long.
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if the tape's gonna hold out, honestly.
SPEAKER_00: I probably should.
SPEAKER_00: I didn't charge it.
SPEAKER_00: I told people I would try to put it out there, so let me get the other one started.
SPEAKER_00: Just in case.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: Um, all right.
SPEAKER_00: We we are coming to the final sections of Romans 8 tonight, and arguably, if I was ever going to try to cram so much substantive content into one sermon, I should not have done it with this one.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I it just I was following the calendars.
SPEAKER_00: I said I wanted to wrap it up before our little break uh because again, we don't have services on Sunday.
SPEAKER_00: I think everybody's aware.
SPEAKER_00: We've tried to make that clear, but won't be any Sunday.
SPEAKER_00: We'll resume on the 13th.
SPEAKER_00: I am scheduled to be here.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure I'm going to.
SPEAKER_00: I gave Alex one day between I told him I'd give him one Sunday between now and the end of the year.
SPEAKER_00: I think he's gonna want the 13th.
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, if he does, then I'll swap off with Richard for a day in October sometime.
SPEAKER_00: But um we'll see.
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I plan on starting a series on prophecy then, so I just didn't want to break it up like that.
SPEAKER_00: Tonight we're going to consider the remaining 12 verses of Romans 8, um, which begin in verse 28 and run through the end of the chapter, unlike sermons in the past on Romans.
SPEAKER_00: I won't rehash what all that has gone before.
SPEAKER_00: Uh all previous Romans 8 sermons are posted.
SPEAKER_00: So if you are concerned about context in any way, which you know is fine, you can check those out.
SPEAKER_00: But let's go ahead and pray and then we'll read.
SPEAKER_00: Father in heaven, thank you for your word.
SPEAKER_00: We thank you again for for your revealing yourself, but for in particular chapters like this, Father, where you give us so much assurance and encouragement, and we thank you for it.
SPEAKER_00: We we do want to understand it properly.
SPEAKER_00: Some of these verses are really debated.
SPEAKER_00: Um so we want to be charitable, uh, but we want to understand what you're telling us.
SPEAKER_00: But there's no doubt through much of the passage here, Father, it's just a very encouraging uh passage, and again, just really emphasizing how much you love us.
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for that, Father, and we praise you for it, and we ask for your guidance as we study.
SPEAKER_00: In Jesus' name, amen.
SPEAKER_00: All right, Romans 8, beginning verse 28.
SPEAKER_00: We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God who are called according to his purpose.
SPEAKER_00: For those he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters, and those he predestined he also called, and those he called, he also justified, and those he justified, he also glorified.
SPEAKER_00: What then are we to say about these things?
SPEAKER_00: If God is for us, who is against us?
SPEAKER_00: He did not even spare his own son, but gave him up for us all.
SPEAKER_00: How will he not also with him grant us everything?
SPEAKER_00: Who can bring an accusation against God's elect?
SPEAKER_00: God is the one who justifies, who is the one who condemns?
SPEAKER_00: Christ is the one who died, but even more has been raised.
SPEAKER_00: He also is at the right hand of God and intercedes for us.
SPEAKER_00: Who can separate us from the love of Christ?
SPEAKER_00: Can affliction or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sort?
SPEAKER_00: As it is written, Because of you we are being put to death all day long.
SPEAKER_00: We are counted as sheep to be slaughtered.
SPEAKER_00: No in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
SPEAKER_00: For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
SPEAKER_00: Alright.
SPEAKER_00: Now, um, as I forewarned you, I'm going to tackle what I what I call the Calvinistic section of this passage.
SPEAKER_00: And I'll just be honest with you, it ended up taking more time than I thought it would.
SPEAKER_00: But I just decided to do it.
SPEAKER_00: And I mentioned this before.
SPEAKER_00: I think the reason it's important is because this is one of the passages that will be cited in support of a Calvinistic view of salvation.
SPEAKER_00: And so if you ever have opportunity to discuss this with someone, it's good, I think, for you to understand where they're coming from and what the alternatives are.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, I realize some of you may be Calvinists, I don't I don't mean to be um what's the word, you know, inflammatory.
SPEAKER_00: Um but most people who are Calvinists, I don't think really understand Calvinism, thankfully.
SPEAKER_00: But those who do, or who come to the realization of it sometimes and understand its full implications, can become disillusioned with God.
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen that happen, and I've heard of people saying that it has happened, and I'd say understandably so.
SPEAKER_00: I saw um this uh Christian uh artist not too long ago who started saying, Well, if this is the way it is, I I'm not sure we can fully trust in God.
SPEAKER_00: Calvinism, again, at the point that we're talking about it in salvation, is the belief that God elected believers in eternity past.
SPEAKER_00: And having done that, at some point, God then will regenerate the believer, and then the person believes and is saved.
SPEAKER_00: But the whole point of Calvinism is that salvation is what they refer to as monergistic.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've heard that word.
SPEAKER_00: What it means is it's one way.
SPEAKER_00: God does it all, God does everything.
SPEAKER_00: Um, if he doesn't, in their view, then man is taking some of the credit.
SPEAKER_00: Now, Calvinists have ways, and I've said before, they're actually their biggest problem is their determinism.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to get into that, but that's basically that you have no free will at all.
SPEAKER_00: Calvinists have ways that they try to say a believer has free will, but however they go about that, they will affirm that a person does not have free will to receive Christ.
SPEAKER_00: And so an unsafe person is unsaved because God did not want to save them.
SPEAKER_00: Now they don't like it, but it's so blunt, but if you push them, that's they'll affirm that.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: So the verses in question here are verses 29 through 30.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you caught it, but Calvinists cite these verses as support of their view for salvation.
SPEAKER_00: So the question we're asking, before we really get into the fullness of the text, is is that accurate?
SPEAKER_00: Well, a primary defense against Calvinism up front, if not the primary defense, is the clarity of other verses.
SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, like John 3 16, that we all know, probably can all quote.
SPEAKER_00: God sent his son into the world to um, God gave his only son, um, so that everyone God so loved the world.
SPEAKER_00: I said it, but I can quote it, and I can't quote it.
SPEAKER_00: God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him will have eternal life.
SPEAKER_00: 1 Timothy 2 and 4, God wants everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
SPEAKER_00: 2 Peter 3 9.
SPEAKER_00: God is not willing that any should perish.
SPEAKER_00: Now, those verses are pretty plain, but Calvinists find ways to deal with those passages.
SPEAKER_00: And frankly, in one sense, that's what I'm doing today.
SPEAKER_00: When you have passages that may seem to be in conflict, then you have to try to get them to mix.
SPEAKER_00: However, I think those passages are very clear, and there are better alternatives to the Calvinistic text.
SPEAKER_00: What happens a lot of time with Calvinism is that they appeal to what is called mystery.
SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh yeah, well, it says this in one place and it says something seemingly the opposite in another place.
SPEAKER_00: And so we can't really put it together, it's just divine mystery, and we'll throw our hands up and say we don't know.
SPEAKER_00: Well, in some cases, it just simply appears they're pitting passages against each other.
SPEAKER_00: We we need to interpret scripture with the belief that it makes sense.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes, we understand some things are hard to grasp, say the Trinity, but we understand that there's Father, Son, Spirit.
SPEAKER_00: We can grasp that in a roundabout way, even though we can't get the fullness of it.
SPEAKER_00: The point is it's not contradictory.
SPEAKER_00: Some of the statements that they make regarding belief and how a person comes to believe are clearly contradictory.
SPEAKER_00: Now, I've read the verses already.
SPEAKER_00: Again, that's verses 29 through 30.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you sense the Calvinistic flavor of them.
SPEAKER_00: We'll come back to that.
SPEAKER_00: I just before we begin, I wanted to say there's three primary ways of dealing with these verses that I'm aware of.
SPEAKER_00: There's probably more, but there's three I know of.
SPEAKER_00: I hold what is referred to as a provisionist position.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've heard that term.
SPEAKER_00: It's a term that's been fairly recently coined.
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's in effect, it's the traditional Baptist view in most cases.
SPEAKER_00: The term itself was coined by a Trinity seminary professor named Blade and Flowers.
SPEAKER_00: He has a podcast called Soteriology 101.
SPEAKER_00: That podcast is actually devoted to debunking Calvinism.
SPEAKER_00: I was anti-Calvinist before I ever heard of him, but uh he does have a lot of information about dealing with certain verses they use.
SPEAKER_00: And the interesting thing about him is he was a Calvinist and came out of it.
SPEAKER_00: And what I also realized from him was how prevalent Calvinism is.
SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize that so many people I listened to on 106.9 were Calvinists.
SPEAKER_00: Um and again, I'm not saying that they're, you know, not Christian or anything like that.
SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying that their views, when pressed on this on the salvation issue, get problematic.
SPEAKER_00: And most of them are what I call under-the-radar Calvinists.
SPEAKER_00: They're not going to be too overt about it.
SPEAKER_00: But uh if they get into a situation where they're talking about election, it will force itself out.
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, typically the provisionist view aligns more with the traditional Baptist view.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would say in this case, traditional Baptists follow more of the Arminian line.
SPEAKER_00: And Arminian, again, is named after its founder.
SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about more about that a little bit, but it says that God created us with true free will.
SPEAKER_00: We have free will to make decisions, basically.
SPEAKER_00: And there's many Protestants, including many Baptists, that believe that.
SPEAKER_00: Methodists believe that, um, the Catholic Church believes that, the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that.
SPEAKER_00: So there's many more Christians who hold to an Arminian view.
SPEAKER_00: It's certainly a majority view on these passages.
SPEAKER_00: Since my view is the minority view on these verses, I am going to tell you what the other two views are, because I, you know, these are the kind of things that you may feel like, well, is it really that big a deal?
SPEAKER_00: And in one sense, maybe it's not.
SPEAKER_00: Maybe the you know it's not unless you have to talk to somebody about it and it comes up.
SPEAKER_00: So I get it if you're like, uh so just try to stay awake if you can, is all I know.
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so the views all stem from how a person understands the word for new to me in verse 29.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what your text says.
SPEAKER_00: I think most of them say for new or foreknowledge or something.
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense, right?
SPEAKER_00: That's what gets it all started in verse 29.
SPEAKER_00: It's clear to everyone that those who are foreknew are saved.
SPEAKER_00: There's no disputes about that.
SPEAKER_00: So those who are for new are saved.
SPEAKER_00: Uh for those who foreknew are ultimately glorified.
SPEAKER_00: That's at the end of verse 30.
SPEAKER_00: So those people are saved.
SPEAKER_00: The Calvinist says that God foreknew the people.
SPEAKER_00: He foreknew the people, and by people they mean the people he would save.
SPEAKER_00: The main reason they come to this conclusion is because one, it supports their overall approach to salvation, and two, the end result of the foreknown is also considered to be glorified.
SPEAKER_00: That's in the past tense.
SPEAKER_00: We think of glorification as in the future tense, but it says plainly there, they are glorified.
SPEAKER_00: So there's a progression and there's a connection here, beginning with the word foreknown by God or the phrase foreknown by God, and then ultimately being glorified.
SPEAKER_00: Calvinists refer to all these verses 29 through 30 as the golden chain of salvation.
SPEAKER_00: Y'all heard of that, maybe?
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you listen to a Calvinist long enough, at some point they'll mention that.
SPEAKER_00: The golden chain of salvation.
SPEAKER_00: After God foreknows or chooses people, he then predestines those chosen to be in the image of his son.
SPEAKER_00: After they are, or we could say they are elected and then predestined, and then they are called, and after being called, they are justified, and after being justified, they are glorified.
SPEAKER_00: And you will recall Paul has been talking about the believer's ultimate fate being glorification.
SPEAKER_00: That's what we talked about last week.
SPEAKER_00: So the Calvinists, these are all connected.
SPEAKER_00: The initial link of the chain is connected to the final link.
SPEAKER_00: There is a progression from being foreknown, we might say, elected, to ultimately being glorified.
SPEAKER_00: All that is completed.
SPEAKER_00: So there's not one without the other, in other words.
SPEAKER_00: If you're foreknown, you're going to be glorified in everything in between.
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
SPEAKER_00: And that past tense of being glorified is very significant in their view because they say it's telling that no loss of salvation is possible.
SPEAKER_00: You can't be foreknown and eventually not glorified.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: This, I don't know if y'all remember me talking about tulip.
SPEAKER_00: That's the Calvinist acrostic.
SPEAKER_00: It's uh for salvation, how they believe salvation happens.
SPEAKER_00: T is total depravity, U is unconditional election, L is limited atonement, I is irresistible grace, P is perseverance of the saints.
SPEAKER_00: In this chain here, or in this particular passage, they say there's at least three of these upheld, and maybe four.
SPEAKER_00: So they would say, you know, that uh perseverance of the saints is here because once you're foreknown, you're glorified.
SPEAKER_00: Then unconditional election, irresistible grace is there, and maybe even limited atonement because this only applies to those that are foreknown.
SPEAKER_00: So that's their argument.
SPEAKER_00: And and I want to say this from a proof text perspective, if you just go in and read that, I don't think it's an unreasonable argument.
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's joined there together.
SPEAKER_00: But by proof text, again, I mean without considering the larger context of the Bible that I've already pointed out, and then also the larger context around these verses.
SPEAKER_00: Some so if God wants everyone to be saved, as I mentioned earlier, why does he only foreknow or elect a select group?
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, that's the Calvinist view.
SPEAKER_00: How about the majority view, which is the Arminian view?
SPEAKER_00: The Arminian says that God foreknew not certain people in the way the Calvinists says, but rather something about certain people.
SPEAKER_00: In other words, whereas the Calvinists will say God foreknew the people in the sense of who he would preordain to salvation, the Arminian position is that God knew these people would accept him.
SPEAKER_00: So the Arminian blunts the Calvinist perspective right out of the gate as far as the first link in the process.
SPEAKER_00: In other words, they say God is not picking people for salvation, he merely foreknows what a person's going to do.
SPEAKER_00: So he foreknows that a person will freely choose to believe in him, and as such, he predestines that path or that person to the path that we see here.
SPEAKER_00: Now, the Armenian will argue the passage never tells us specifically how these people became Christians.
SPEAKER_00: They are already in the class of the foreknown before we get to the predestined part.
SPEAKER_00: And the predestined part is talking about something in the future, being conformed to the image of Christ, the image of his son.
SPEAKER_00: Whoever is Christian, then, God has predestined that they'll be conformed to the image of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: Paul is making no mention of God predestining certain people to become Christian.
SPEAKER_00: There's nothing here about predestining an unbeliever to become a believer.
SPEAKER_00: Rather, this is about predestinating believers to experience a certain destiny someday.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: Now, Calvinists would counter and say, okay, well, yeah, we just believe in differently about what foreknown means.
SPEAKER_00: But they would also come back and say, well, it says here everyone who is called is justified.
SPEAKER_00: And they say that supports the Calvinist view of effectual calling.
SPEAKER_00: Because if you've been called, you were foreknown, and then you're later you're called, you will be justified.
SPEAKER_00: And God's not the indication is God's not going to call you unless you are in the elect or the foreknown.
SPEAKER_00: But remember what Jesus said.
SPEAKER_00: I remember what Jesus said, many are called.
SPEAKER_00: Few are chosen.
SPEAKER_00: So what an Arminium will say here is Paul must be describing the chosen.
SPEAKER_00: Because the yes, the chosen are certainly called, but they're also the ones that respond.
SPEAKER_00: It's clear enough in Scripture that not all called are chosen.
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, the chosen are always called, but that doesn't mean that the called are always chosen.
SPEAKER_00: And so the reference here, there is a class, then in other words, of people who are called and not justified.
SPEAKER_00: And that's not who Paul is speaking of.
SPEAKER_00: He just calls them the called and justified.
SPEAKER_00: So, in essence, what he's saying is those people are chosen.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's how there are many in response to that.
SPEAKER_00: Well, how about the past tense of glorified?
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like it's a done deal.
SPEAKER_00: It's as though this chain is linked in such a way to effectively occur all at once upon the foreknowledge that glorification is done.
SPEAKER_00: If glorification is in the future, why does he talk about it as a past event?
SPEAKER_00: Well, you may not remember this.
SPEAKER_00: I think I mentioned it a couple weeks ago when I was talking about something Paul said in Romans 4, but but Paul does say that God calls those things that are not as though they were.
SPEAKER_00: So he could certainly say, when I've been glorified, even though I haven't been fully yet.
SPEAKER_00: We know salvation is referred to in that way, right?
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we'll say we're saved.
SPEAKER_00: Or the Bible will say we're being saved.
SPEAKER_00: We know we're not fully saved until the return of Christ in its fullness.
SPEAKER_00: Also, I wanted to look at Ephesians 2 and 6, because this is the passage that is mentioned sometimes, and I think it's appropriate.
SPEAKER_00: Ephesians 2 and verse 6.
SPEAKER_00: You are saved by grace, Paul says.
SPEAKER_00: And then he says, He, meaning Christ, also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: So here, in effect, Paul says, We've already been glorified.
SPEAKER_00: We've been raised up with him and seated with him.
SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't know about y'all, but I don't feel like I'm raised up and seated in the heavens right now.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not feeling it.
SPEAKER_00: Don't know if y'all are, but I'm just not.
SPEAKER_00: Well, how can that be?
SPEAKER_00: In other words, because we are in Christ.
SPEAKER_00: Christ has been glorified.
SPEAKER_00: We are in him.
SPEAKER_00: It is true.
SPEAKER_00: We will have our own glorification in another sense at the resurrection.
SPEAKER_00: That's what he said in the last set of passages we looked at Sunday.
SPEAKER_00: We are already, though, glorified in Christ, because Christ is glorified.
SPEAKER_00: Someday that will be fully true.
SPEAKER_00: We'll experience in a way we don't now.
SPEAKER_00: But the bot in the body, I should say, that we are at one with is already represented in heaven glorified.
SPEAKER_00: In the head, so we are in him glorified.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: So that's the majority Christian view right there.
SPEAKER_00: That God foreknew these people would receive him, and therefore in him they are also predestined, called, justified, glorified.
SPEAKER_00: So here comes your uh old pastor with a minority view.
SPEAKER_00: But I do think it's the best one, or I wouldn't hold it.
SPEAKER_00: I will admit sometimes I think I'm reverting back to my suspicions about General Christendom's interpretation on some stuff at least.
SPEAKER_00: Like when I was taught when I joined up with Worldwide.
SPEAKER_00: As I look at it now, I do think Worldwide was actually right about a few things, just definitely not most of them, but uh it's just funny.
SPEAKER_00: But in thinking about it, I thought, well, I do need to look at all the angles.
SPEAKER_00: Paul, of course, has been talking about or discussing things that God uses for our good earlier.
SPEAKER_00: That's why, and then that's why he's come into verse 28 the way that he does, saying that all things are working for our good.
SPEAKER_00: So he's making clear God is working everything out for our good.
SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, God is sovereignly.
SPEAKER_00: Charge.
SPEAKER_00: The Greek word here for for new is prognosco.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's where our word prognosis comes from.
SPEAKER_00: There's two different words actually used in scripture for the root of that.
SPEAKER_00: One is for singular, one is for plural.
SPEAKER_00: It's used five times in scripture.
SPEAKER_00: Paul uses it only in one other place.
SPEAKER_00: Over in Romans 11.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to turn there.
SPEAKER_00: Romans 11, verse 1.
SPEAKER_00: I asked then, has God rejected his people?
SPEAKER_00: What he's talking about here is Israel.
SPEAKER_00: Now I mentioned we're going to study this hopefully next year.
SPEAKER_00: Because this gets into the weeds as well.
SPEAKER_00: Is he talking about Israel the nation or Israel the remnant?
SPEAKER_00: Those who actually believed in God.
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I asked then, has God rejected his people?
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not, for I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin.
SPEAKER_00: God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.
SPEAKER_00: Or don't you know what the scripture says in the passage about Elijah?
SPEAKER_00: And then he goes on, Elijah's complaining because there's nobody there but him that believes in God, and God says, Oh no, there's 7,000 that I've reserved as a remnant.
SPEAKER_00: So that's why there's an argument about is this Israel a remnant?
SPEAKER_00: We'll come back to that later.
SPEAKER_00: But one thing is clear.
SPEAKER_00: In this passage, Paul is using the word for new as the literal meaning of the word, which is to know beforehand, to have known in the past.
SPEAKER_00: It's also fairly clear that's what it means in the other three passages I mentioned.
SPEAKER_00: For time's sake, I won't turn to them.
SPEAKER_00: I can give you those passages later if you're interested in looking at them.
SPEAKER_00: So what that means is there's nothing mystical about this word at all.
SPEAKER_00: As I believe, for whatever reason, I think because the word predestines in there, it's become interpreted this way.
SPEAKER_00: But really, I think all the words, it's like saying, you and I four knew each other, meaning we just known each other in the past.
SPEAKER_00: It's an awkward way for us to express it in English, but it's basically the same meaning.
SPEAKER_00: We knew each other in the past.
SPEAKER_00: And it's easy to see in Romans 11 that's what he means because he's specifically referring to Israelites in the past.
SPEAKER_00: So I think what Paul is doing in Romans 8 is revealing his focus on the saints of old, which he is about to embark on a long discussion beginning in Romans 9.
SPEAKER_00: Those God foreknew in the past, Israel, he worked all things for the good for those who loved him for them as well.
SPEAKER_00: Also, another thing that kind of bolsters this, and this will be a little hard to grasp, I'll go through it quickly because I know we're in the weeds, but where it says in verse 28, we know all things, that verb know there means we know by observing.
SPEAKER_00: Not so much we know intuitively, it means we know it because we've seen it.
SPEAKER_00: It's the same know Greek word that's translated from verse 22 where it says, We know the world is groaning, we know creation is groaning.
SPEAKER_00: How does we know?
SPEAKER_00: How do we know it?
SPEAKER_00: We see it, we observe it, we feel it.
SPEAKER_00: We talked about that Sunday.
SPEAKER_00: So it's a it's an observational, experiential knowing.
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's what he's saying.
SPEAKER_00: You can look and know what happened to the saints of the old, and that's how we know we can be safe in God's working everything out.
SPEAKER_00: I think he's providing a reference to ease the fears of those who are now coming to faith.
SPEAKER_00: He simply means, because we've seen how God worked all things to the good for those he knew before, those saints in Israel, we know he'll do the same for those that love him.
SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm not the only person that believes this, but it is a minority view.
SPEAKER_00: But Roger Forster writes, God foreknew them or knew them of old.
SPEAKER_00: It does not mean that God entered into some former time, into a relationship with the Israelites of today.
SPEAKER_00: It means that he entered a two-way relationship with the Israelites that existed in early Old Testament times, and he regards the present Israelites as integral with it.
SPEAKER_00: And that's a little confusing, but what he's saying is God planned to accomplish salvation for those who were previously known in love, like Abraham, Moses, David, just anybody you can think of in the Old Testament that we know loved God.
SPEAKER_00: But they didn't, they weren't saved in the Christian sense of understanding Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: They believed God, but they didn't believe in Christ.
SPEAKER_00: So he is saying that God still is conforming them into the image of the one who would come to purchase their redemption.
SPEAKER_00: That is the ultimate example, in one sense, of God causing all things to work for the good because he'd done that with the Old Testament saints.
SPEAKER_00: Paul is saying that God works the redemption of their souls.
SPEAKER_00: Now, much more could be said, but um I won't go further into it, and I know I went through it pretty fast.
SPEAKER_00: So if you have questions about it, maybe you'll listen to it later.
SPEAKER_00: But just remember when he's been going through Romans, he's been contrasting Jews, Gentiles, law, grace.
SPEAKER_00: And then when he gets to Romans 9 again, he's going to ramp it up about the nation of Israel and what's happened to them and how we need to view them going forward.
SPEAKER_00: So I think he's just putting that out there now.
SPEAKER_00: And I will address the past tense glorified again at the end because that's a a little bit of a different issue, and we'll talk about that in just a moment.
SPEAKER_00: So now, verse 28.
SPEAKER_00: It is clear whatever verses 29 and 30 mean.
SPEAKER_00: They're meant to be encouraging, right?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, all the whole passage is encouraging.
SPEAKER_00: So 29 and 30 are the only ones that are a little kind of hard to follow.
SPEAKER_00: So that's one reason.
SPEAKER_00: Another reason I don't think it's a Calvinistic view of it.
SPEAKER_00: But that if that's the case, it's a depressing set of verses.
SPEAKER_00: Because, I mean, it's great if you're elect, but it's horrible if you're not, and you have no choice.
SPEAKER_00: Remember, we were talking about groaning in the past section.
SPEAKER_00: So in verse 28, Paul shifts the focus for those who are suffering and groaning, we see previously, to provide comfort.
SPEAKER_00: And he does so by reminding the Romans again, I think, to observe God's dealings with others who have loved God or who foreknew him, who God foreknew.
SPEAKER_00: Verse 28.
SPEAKER_00: This is, of course, again, it's encouraging when you're going through something rough.
SPEAKER_00: And I know some of you, if you're not going, they always say if you're not going through something rough, you just have been or you're getting ready to.
SPEAKER_00: That's a little daunting, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00: But that's sometimes how it feels, I know.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what it's saying is God can exploit whatever it is.
SPEAKER_00: He will exploit whatever it is, he will take every circumstance that's in your life and turn it into something good.
SPEAKER_00: We can think of any number probably of examples in our lives, although there's some like I still don't see the good doing Seth dine.
SPEAKER_00: I don't understand that at all.
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'll understand it in heaven, you know, I think, hopefully.
SPEAKER_00: Um and there may be situations in your life where you've I don't see really how any good came of that.
SPEAKER_00: But God is working, it says here, everything for the good.
SPEAKER_00: There's something good that came out of it.
SPEAKER_00: And I won't say I won't know of anything good that didn't come out of it.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there were probably thousands of people preached to that day when he died, but or the for his service, but you know, so there are things that work good for it.
SPEAKER_00: But we can think of any number of biblical examples as well, right?
SPEAKER_00: We see this thought early on in Genesis, right?
SPEAKER_00: Where Joseph's brother sold him into slavery, which was horribly wrong.
SPEAKER_00: But then God took that sin and turned it into something good.
SPEAKER_00: And remember, Joseph even said to him, You meant it when he revealed himself, you meant it for evil, God meant it for good.
SPEAKER_00: So I mean that we're all voila.
SPEAKER_00: But God didn't do any of the evil, but he made it work for good.
SPEAKER_00: God let things happen because he was going to turn it into something good.
SPEAKER_00: We see that in any number of situations, even the most horrendous situation of all, the death of Christ.
SPEAKER_00: Judas betrayed Jesus, Peter denied Jesus, Peter goes on to become the foundational link of the church.
SPEAKER_00: God turned the worst kind of betrayal of Judas into the salvation of the world.
SPEAKER_00: So whatever bad is going on with you right now, because you love God, you are promised and assured your God is working all of it out to the good of you, it says.
SPEAKER_00: The text says, for the good of those who love him.
SPEAKER_00: And notice God is able to work all things for the good.
SPEAKER_00: Not some things.
SPEAKER_00: It said, maybe this one will be no, everything, it says, all things.
SPEAKER_00: He works them for good together, not in isolation.
SPEAKER_00: This promises for those who love God, and the, you know, and how we understand God says God manages the affairs of our life because we are called according to his purpose.
SPEAKER_00: So when you think about verse 28 in that way, and you add verses 29 and 30, to rehash, believers can know from the observation of God's past dealings with who God knew before.
SPEAKER_00: And I think again, one reason I'm saying it's the Old Testament people, that's all they knew in New Testament times.
SPEAKER_00: We could look at it as anyone in Scripture, in one sense, I think.
SPEAKER_00: So God has this wonderful way of working things out for the greatest good.
SPEAKER_00: We see it through scripture, we experience in our lives, we hear it from other people.
SPEAKER_00: And by cons and even when we don't fully understand it, and he's going to mention that, even when we don't fully understand it, he's still doing it.
SPEAKER_00: So by considering what God has done in the past, we can rest assured God will take whatever evil may come to us and redeem it for a good.
SPEAKER_00: And then he comes to verse 31.
SPEAKER_00: What then are we to say about these things?
SPEAKER_00: And then what follows continues along with verse 28 and some of the most beloved passages of scripture, and rightfully so, I think.
SPEAKER_00: And understand here, you know, I talked about it, he's going to jump, he's shifting big time in Romans 9.
SPEAKER_00: So in Romans 8, he's summing up everything that he said through the first eight chapters here.
SPEAKER_00: Because again, he's going to change gears to focus on the nation of Israel.
SPEAKER_00: But in summing it up here, he's gone through all of Romans, talking about all these theological things, the negative impact of sin.
SPEAKER_00: He's talked about our struggles, he's talked about how grace saves us, about how God sent Christ, just all of that.
SPEAKER_00: And then last passage again, we saw everything is groaning.
SPEAKER_00: But in all this, he's shown the great, great lengths that God went to to save man.
SPEAKER_00: So he says here, there is no doubt God is for us.
SPEAKER_00: There's no doubt.
SPEAKER_00: And if so, he asks, Who can be against us?
SPEAKER_00: So despite any suffering that we face, if God is for us, why does it matter who's against us?
SPEAKER_00: God will ultimately save us, God will ultimately bring us through in the end.
SPEAKER_00: And Paul just reinforces the reason for our trust in the re in in the reality that God is for us.
SPEAKER_00: He did not spare his son, but gave him up for us all.
SPEAKER_00: I remember my dad saying again, you know, I don't he struggled with that.
SPEAKER_00: Like, why did God have to do that?
SPEAKER_00: Why did God give up his son?
SPEAKER_00: He was like, I couldn't give up any of my kids for people like that.
SPEAKER_00: And he kept wrestling with, you know, and we talk about God's holiness and God's love and those kind of things.
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you saw the song that he wrote, but in it he said he let them crucify his son.
SPEAKER_00: God has been so good to me.
SPEAKER_00: It came, it dawned on him more and more what God had done.
SPEAKER_00: So who will bring a charge against us?
SPEAKER_00: If God has justified us, who's going to condemn us?
SPEAKER_00: He says.
SPEAKER_00: No one outranks God, right?
SPEAKER_00: If God says you're acquitted, your freedom's secured.
SPEAKER_00: There's no higher court.
SPEAKER_00: God is the universal supreme court.
SPEAKER_00: Paul is saying your justification is secure, it's from the highest authority ever.
SPEAKER_00: So no one can condemn us.
SPEAKER_00: We're told here that Christ intercedes for us.
SPEAKER_00: We were told earlier the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.
SPEAKER_00: God is advocating for us.
SPEAKER_00: Who could condemn us?
SPEAKER_00: The last parts ask, who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
SPEAKER_00: Paul is persuaded that nothing can do that.
SPEAKER_00: And in saying that, he lists a bunch of things: affliction, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, sword.
SPEAKER_00: Then he quotes Psalm 44 and verse 2, uh 22.
SPEAKER_00: That's in uh Romans 8, 36.
SPEAKER_00: Because of you, we are being put to death all day long.
SPEAKER_00: We are counted as sheep to be slaughtered.
SPEAKER_00: Now, what he's doing there is this the passage means that we will sometimes suffer for being faithful to God.
SPEAKER_00: That's what was happening in the psalm.
SPEAKER_00: Israel was suffering for God's sake, and that's what they were saying, and their fidelity to the Lord.
SPEAKER_00: We're suffering for you, and the more that we suffer, the greater abuse we get.
SPEAKER_00: And so that can cause us to doubt is God ever going to come to the rescue?
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't that indicate maybe that we are separated?
SPEAKER_00: And Paul says, No, we're not.
SPEAKER_00: Shall death separate us?
SPEAKER_00: No.
SPEAKER_00: Shall life, meaning, whatever we get caught up in here, will it separate us?
SPEAKER_00: No.
SPEAKER_00: Shall angels?
SPEAKER_00: No.
SPEAKER_00: Rulers, powers, height, depth, anything anywhere, whatever you can think of.
SPEAKER_00: These may be the kinds of things that any Christian might be fearful of.
SPEAKER_00: And Paul says, look, there's there's no created thing that is able to separate you from the love of God that is in Christ.
SPEAKER_00: And we can think, well, yeah, these things are hard to feel secure in, you know, like I was talking about.
SPEAKER_00: I lost my loved one.
SPEAKER_00: Does God really love me?
SPEAKER_00: Or can I stand faithful in times of great distress?
SPEAKER_00: I slip sometimes.
SPEAKER_00: Can I remain in God's good graces, though, through all the, you know, that life throws at us?
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's the question.
SPEAKER_00: In verse 37, Paul says, In all these things, we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
SPEAKER_00: In Christ, we have all the resources necessary to endure tribulation and distress, no matter how bad it gets.
SPEAKER_00: We don't have to worry, we won't have the ability to conquer and stay close to God.
SPEAKER_00: God provides the resources.
SPEAKER_00: We have Jesus, Spirit of God, interceding for us again.
SPEAKER_00: We have the Spirit of God indwelling us.
SPEAKER_00: He's talked about that.
SPEAKER_00: We have the promise that God is working out all things for the good for those that love Him, verse 28.
SPEAKER_00: And so Paul closes the chapter really in the first section, just being persuaded.
SPEAKER_00: Again, verses 38 and 39.
SPEAKER_00: For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, angels nor rulers, those things I've read before, nor height nor depth will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm not here to be Debbie Downer.
SPEAKER_00: One caveat here.
SPEAKER_00: He does not raise the question of whether we can separate ourselves.
SPEAKER_00: Notice everything he mentions are external circumstances.
SPEAKER_00: Everything.
SPEAKER_00: So what about the issue of a person who rebels or just has flat-out apostasy, which means we just deny Christ.
SPEAKER_00: Paul's question here is to give hope to, and Paul's question in his whole discourse and his answer is to give hope to the Christian, not the person who's wanting to run away from God.
SPEAKER_00: Romans was initially read by a group of people that were dealing with strife within the church.
SPEAKER_00: They were doing threatened persecution, all kinds of things, but they were all Christians and they wanted to know what God want us to do.
SPEAKER_00: It was not some idol looking at it, thinking, Oh, I can believe in God and then go on about my business.
SPEAKER_00: Because it says, Here, I'm wrapped up, everything's fine.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I said uh a prayer at the altar one time and I'm leaving, it doesn't matter, I'm done with it.
SPEAKER_00: This is a sure, secured hope for the person who loves God and wants to stay faithful.
SPEAKER_00: And they know that challenges like the ones he had mentioned will come.
SPEAKER_00: And like the ones he mentioned in Romans 7, where he's talked about, I don't do what I want to do.
SPEAKER_00: Um, he knows that's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00: There's challenges from the world in the form of temptation, prosecution, trials, sufferings, attacks in the spiritual realm.
SPEAKER_00: And he says, Wa is doing and he's answering question, a person that says, There's all this stuff I'm having to deal with.
SPEAKER_00: Can I really handle it?
SPEAKER_00: Paul is saying, Oh, yeah, you can handle it.
SPEAKER_00: In Christ, you are more than a conqueror.
SPEAKER_00: God will enable you.
SPEAKER_00: The assumption is you want to be enabled.
SPEAKER_00: If you do, Paul gives the assurance you will never have to worry that any external created being, angel, or human or any circumstance, try, trial, tribulation, persecution, temptation will ever get the best of you.
SPEAKER_00: As long as you trust in the Lord.
SPEAKER_00: If I'm walking in the Spirit, looking to God, we'll be victorious, guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00: John said in 1 John 5, 5, who is the one who conquers the world but the one that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
SPEAKER_00: Trusting that God died for you.
SPEAKER_00: Nothing external can ever get to you, ever.
SPEAKER_00: But again, this is why there are numerous warnings in Scripture against flippantly sinning.
SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm not talking about struggles, we all struggle.
SPEAKER_00: But when we just get to a point where it doesn't matter, I don't care.
SPEAKER_00: God saved me and I'm done with it.
SPEAKER_00: I'm fine, he has to save me, he's already said it.
SPEAKER_00: What happens is it damages our love for God, and then we can start to love sin.
SPEAKER_00: And then that brings us back around to Calvinism.
SPEAKER_00: Calvinists say the perseverance of the saints means that once you're in, you're always in.
SPEAKER_00: You'll never fall away.
SPEAKER_00: Well, the problem is that there are people who seem to be Christians who have fallen away.
SPEAKER_00: We probably all know some of them.
SPEAKER_00: I do.
SPEAKER_00: And Calvinists, and frankly, many Baptists will say, well, those people weren't ever really Christian.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mentioned before, that's kind of a strange way to go at it.
SPEAKER_00: The Bible doesn't say Christians will never fall away.
SPEAKER_00: To the contrary, it says many will fall away from the faith in the last day.
SPEAKER_00: How could they fall away from it if they never were in it?
SPEAKER_00: I suppose they what they would say is, well, they were close to it.
SPEAKER_00: Well, then the problem becomes, how do you ever know that you're close enough to be really in?
SPEAKER_00: I don't see how you could.
SPEAKER_00: The Bible is full of warnings about falling away from the faith.
SPEAKER_00: They make absolutely no sense if they're written to people who are never in the faith.
SPEAKER_00: One reason Paul is offering assurance here is to help us understand that we really don't have to worry as long as we work we love God.
SPEAKER_00: There's nothing to worry about.
SPEAKER_00: But he's not saying that apostasy is not an option.
SPEAKER_00: He just realizes he's writing to people who have no interest in leaving Christ.
SPEAKER_00: They want to stay firm.
SPEAKER_00: And he's saying, don't worry, you will.
SPEAKER_00: Just keep hanging on to Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: He'll bring you safely to God's golden shores.
SPEAKER_00: To quote Oh, brother Warwick, though.
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
SPEAKER_00: But you'll survive the torrential rains and the turbulent seas.
SPEAKER_00: God's got you.
SPEAKER_00: Don't turn loose of them.
SPEAKER_00: That's why Christ told his disciples, Abide in me.
SPEAKER_00: For if anyone doesn't abide in me, he's cast forth as a branch and withered and burned.
SPEAKER_00: The abiding is our responsibility.
SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's with God's help.
SPEAKER_00: And yes, there is a sense that we can't even separate ourselves from God's love.
SPEAKER_00: But because God seeks our love, God doesn't say, Well, I'm going to make you love me.
SPEAKER_00: He said, I love you and I'm glad to bring you safely home as long as you want me to.
SPEAKER_00: So long as you love me and you want to be with me.
SPEAKER_00: So hang on.
SPEAKER_00: And look, it's not something that requires supernatural strength on our part.
SPEAKER_00: God supplies all that.
SPEAKER_00: All we have to do is trust.
SPEAKER_00: A child can trust his parents.
SPEAKER_00: Children here trust their parents.
SPEAKER_00: No, Maggie will run right to her parents.
SPEAKER_00: She don't trust me a bit.
SPEAKER_00: She give me a look.
SPEAKER_00: And she went to her parents.
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
SPEAKER_00: That's all it is.
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take a lot to do that.
SPEAKER_00: You know, anytime you get into a mode of transportation where you are not the driver, you're trusting in that individual to get you where you're going.
SPEAKER_00: Now that may not be easy for some of you, or some of your spouses.
SPEAKER_00: So mine says, that's what I've heard Keith say.
SPEAKER_00: No.
SPEAKER_00: So it might not be easy to trust them, but you get the point.
SPEAKER_00: And it's no more complicated than that.
SPEAKER_00: It's really not.
SPEAKER_00: Paul is saying God will get you there.
SPEAKER_00: That's what he's assuring us right here.
SPEAKER_00: No problem.
SPEAKER_00: It may be a bumpy ride, it may get rough at times, but God's in complete control of the steering.
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, enjoy the ride as best you can.
SPEAKER_00: When it gets rough, seek the comfort of the captain.
SPEAKER_00: I know when I'm flying on those planes, which I there's no trust there.
SPEAKER_00: It's just blonde.
SPEAKER_00: I am praying to God there.
SPEAKER_00: I don't really trust the pilot, but I'll get on because I have to.
SPEAKER_00: But anytime they come over the loudspeaker just saying everything's alright, I'm like, I've got 30 more seconds of rest before the next bump, you know.
SPEAKER_00: But they'll they'll come on and say everything's alright.
SPEAKER_00: Or we're going up, everything's good.
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
SPEAKER_00: Just when things are rough, we just go to the Lord, but He's He's driving, He's in control.
SPEAKER_00: The big part of that comfort is spelled out vividly right here.
SPEAKER_00: Put this down, Romans 8, 28 through 39.
SPEAKER_00: When you're having a rough time, go back and read this.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is how much God loves you.
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
SPEAKER_00: There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
SPEAKER_00: Praise God for that.
SPEAKER_00: Let's pray.
SPEAKER_00: Father in heaven, thank you for this passage.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for so much of your word, Father.
SPEAKER_00: But we thank you, Father, that you've created this so that we can love.
SPEAKER_00: You didn't make us robots.
SPEAKER_00: You made us so that we can be in real relationship with you, real relationship with other people.
SPEAKER_00: And so it's just a wonderful gift that you've given us to be created in your image.
SPEAKER_00: And so, Father, thank you so much for that, but thank you for redemption through Christ because we've so marred the image.
SPEAKER_00: And so we ask as we think about these things, Father, please help us to just rest in you, just trust in you.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know everything everybody's going through here, but I know we all go through rough stuff and very difficult stuff at times.
SPEAKER_00: So help us to just remember your your driving.
SPEAKER_00: You'll take care of it, you'll work it out for the good ultimately.
SPEAKER_00: And help us just uh love you and uh look to you and and everything.
SPEAKER_00: And we thank you for your promises and all that you've provided for us.
SPEAKER_00: Pray for those again that couldn't be with us today, those we mentioned earlier safe for dealing with other things, and I just pray you'll be with them and thank you for hearing our prayer in Jesus' name.
SPEAKER_00: Amen.