Security Chipmunks
Security Chipmunks
Episode 4 - The life changing magic of hard work
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Welcome to Security Chipmunks podcast where we talk about the development of cybersecurity skills. To stay up to date in today's world you need to be resilient, that’s why as Advanced Persistent Chipmunks we keep chipping away at it.
Today we are joined by special guest Jillene VanNostrand
Cybersecurity Talent Initiative
https://cybertalentinitiative.org/
Connect with our guest
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillene-vannostrand/
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- Join our Chipmunk community Discord server: https://discord.gg/9yfWP6evYQ
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Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Security Chipmunks podcast, where we talk about the development of cybersecurity skills. To stay up to date in today's world, you need to be resilient. That's why as advanced, persistent chipmunks, we keep chipping away at it. My name is Mick Sedna-Johnson, and my co-host is Neil Smalley.
SPEAKER_00Today, we are joined by a special guest, Jalene Van Ostrand.
SPEAKER_01Hello, Jalene. Hi, Edna. How are you? I'm good. Happy to have you here today. Thank you so much for inviting me. To get started, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what do you do?
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm Jalene, obviously. I am a mom of five. I've been a stay-at-home mom the past 18 years. I just finished my last assignment at WGU, so I should be graduating soon.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing. That's quite an accomplishment. So how quickly did you go through the degree program at WGU? I
SPEAKER_02started July 1st and took December off to spend time with my kids for the holidays and then just finished up this week. So about nine months of study. That's really fast. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yes. All right. So what was the most fun part about your school or any hobbies that you have?
SPEAKER_02I think the Most fun part about school has been joining the Cybersecurity Club. And I plug this all the time on LinkedIn because it's such a great resource. There's an amazing group of people there. We've done a lot of different challenges and CTFs and just different group learning activities that have really augmented my studies and helped me build my skills. And it's been a great way to make friends and have some social time too.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. I love to hear that you're plugging the Cybersecurity Club because as you know, I'm the vice president.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01But that's where we know each other from. So it's been great having you joining us for competitions and activities. I just have to say, you've been such a great help with other students, helping them to learn new skills and encouraging them to learn and study and build upon what they know. Thanks. Yeah. All right. So how did you juggle studying and everything else?
SPEAKER_02I am lucky. that my kids are a little bit older. My oldest will be 18 next month. My youngest is four, so she still needs me a lot. But the older teenagers are really good about helping out. My husband's been really supportive in helping with household stuff so that I can focus on school. So I've been able to focus on it like a full-time job and spend about 40 to 50 weeks or 40 to 50 hours each week on schoolwork. So that helps a lot.
SPEAKER_01Oh, wow. So you've had a really supportive family and being able to spend that much time on school wow that's that's a lot even just I'm just blown away by that number because that's a lot of brain power to get like my brain would be fried at the end of the day
SPEAKER_02so as a stay-at-home mom for 18 years my brain has had a lot of rest and so it was really kind of fired up and ready to just do something that was a little bit more challenging and engaging so I really enjoyed it
SPEAKER_01good well That's good.
SPEAKER_00Partially explains how you went through so quickly because I think the typical amount that they say you're supposed to study for WGU is like minimum of 20 hours a week or something like that. Yeah. If you have more time to devote to it.
SPEAKER_02It's definitely helped in my ability to accelerate. And I see a lot of people commenting on my pace and wondering how they can do it that fast. And it really isn't that I'm doing it that fast I'm just doing it in smaller I guess bigger chunks maybe so instead of spreading it out over a longer length of time because I have fewer hours per week to work on it I kind of crunched it all into a shorter span of time but I'm still putting in just as many hours as anyone else would be and it's definitely been challenging and very engaging but yeah it's not I don't have like some miracle recipe of like boom now your brain knows everything that's not how it works
SPEAKER_00Right. If only.
SPEAKER_02Yeah,
SPEAKER_01seriously. Yeah, I wish I had that magic osmosis learning. But yeah, I guess nobody does have that.
SPEAKER_00I feel like that kind of covers one of the questions we have, which is, what is one common myth about your school experience that you might want to debunk? I think that actually kind of covers that a lot.
SPEAKER_02I do. The other thing I've encountered with that, that I get fairly often on LinkedIn, because I've made a lot of connections there, is people they'll say something about like how to build skills or just the idea that because I'm doing it quickly, I can't be learning very much or absorbing very much that I'm just kind of cramming and passing and then forgetting it all. And that's not true at all because I really am putting in the hours. It seems fast externally because maybe other students are only doing six or seven hours a week or 10 hours or whatever it is they have outside of work and family obligations to put into it and so they just see that I'm doing it really fast and they can't understand how I could possibly be retaining any of it but I really am putting in you know a lot of hours into doing it it's not just a quick memorize this chart take a test and then move on and forget about it that's not how it works at all
SPEAKER_01yeah and regarding that I would take what people say on LinkedIn sometimes with a grain of salt
SPEAKER_02oh
SPEAKER_01yeah no I don't take it seriously at all okay yeah everybody has advice and opinions on their If you start to look at all of the opinions people have, they start to have contradicting opinions.
SPEAKER_02I am fantastically skilled at ignoring what I don't want to see or hear.
SPEAKER_01I'm not worried about that. Speaking of LinkedIn, do you mind talking about that for a little bit? I've seen you've been really great with making connections on LinkedIn. I have taken... I know you don't like give advice on how to do LinkedIn, but I have taken what I see you do and apply that formula to my own strategies and it works phenomenally. So do you mind talking about what you're doing on LinkedIn?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. It's not like a secret thing or anything. I followed Neil Bridges advice to form connections and I tried to make sure that they were meaningful connections, that they were with people in the field that have jobs that I'm interested in or who I think have knowledge that they could share that might be interesting or who I thought might benefit from anything I might have to share. And it kind of sounds prideful, but one of my passions is definitely the more human side of things and security awareness. And like I said, I have five kids. We've homeschooled through various points in their educations. And I'm very passionate about helping people learn and grow and better themselves. And so I like sharing that and encouraging people. I like seeing others' successes and seeing them overcome their challenges. And so that's kind of one of the things for me with LinkedIn is I feel really passionate about it. I like having a space to share that passion and to kind of encourage everyone else and share in their successes.
SPEAKER_01All right. Very good. So the kind of posts that you post, I've seen they bring out a lot of engagement. So you've got some of that experience with education. And that kind of comes out in your posts. And you also seem to really care about your fellow human beings. So, yeah, that's been a key ingredient. And also celebrating things. I noticed that you celebrate a lot of achievements. And that's been fun seeing your progress as you go through the program and earn certificates and complete classes. That's been wonderful to see.
SPEAKER_02So my thought behind that is I didn't have the best childhood, and I never really felt celebrated or appreciated for a long time. And then I decided, you know what? I'm going to celebrate myself because I deserve to be celebrated. Everyone does. And so I think when you're putting in all of that effort and all of that work and really trying to accomplish something, you should be celebrated. You should be shouting it from the rooftops because what you've done is amazing. And I feel that way about everybody. And so I try to model that through my own approach to celebrating accomplishments and achievements, because I think it's okay to do that. You know, it's a good thing to recognize your strengths and what you've been able to do and what you've been able to overcome and to just kind of take a moment and to really cherish that.
SPEAKER_01And I do love to
SPEAKER_02see everyone else's accomplishments too. I think it's fun and it's exciting and it's, you know, I'm always just genuinely happy for everyone. So if I figure if I share more, maybe everyone else will too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Like, you've gotten me to share more things. Good. For sure, yeah. I cheer
SPEAKER_02every time you post something. I'm like, yeah!
SPEAKER_01It's great. I love that. Thank you. You're welcome. And I'm so glad I have, like, I'm creating my own cheerleading
SPEAKER_02squad. Yes, we all need one.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Gets us through
SPEAKER_02those hard moments.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And I'm looking forward to when I accomplish things and I can share them with you and my network and everyone now so yeah that's been great.
SPEAKER_00With going to school and all that I know we all end up wanting to get jobs what is your dream job and or what job are you currently pursuing or what's going on in the employment realm for you?
SPEAKER_02I applied for the Cybersecurity Talent Initiative back last fall in November and it was kind of on a whim because I was still early enough in my schooling that I really didn't know how fast I would be able to finish or if I would actually be graduating in time for their qualifications but I thought maybe I might be able to so I went ahead and applied and went through several interviewing phases and they actually selected me so I have a job lined up beginning this summer or fall I'm just waiting on security clearance wow with a government agency. And it's gonna be this really amazing opportunity because I'll have two years of being mentored and learning various roles within cybersecurity and figuring out kind of where my niche is. And then they have a corporate partnership after the government part. And if you elect to work with one of their corporate partners, that entity will pay up to 75,000 in student loans. So it's an amazing opportunity. I encourage anyone to apply if they think it might be a good fit for them.
SPEAKER_01Did you say $75,000 in student loans?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's pretty significant.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes, that is. Wow. Okay, well, that sounds amazing. Nice. I'm very happy for you. That's a great opportunity.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. I'm really excited. Their first cohort, they only selected 10 people. So I
SPEAKER_01was like,
SPEAKER_02I didn't really think I stood a chance so I was really amazed when I made it but you can learn more about that at cybertalentinitiative.org okay yeah
SPEAKER_01was that one of the reasons why you needed or why you were trying to graduate so quickly it is I
SPEAKER_02initially so when I first signed up for school I came into this with no prior experience I had some college experience before but it wasn't at all IT related it was languages. I spoke Arabic when I was in the army and I was going to college for Spanish and French to become a high school Spanish or French teacher kind of thing. So none of it was really applicable to this degree.
SPEAKER_03And
SPEAKER_02I really thought it was going to take me about two years to finish. And then I got through the first term, I got a lot more done than I thought I was going to. And then I thought, well, maybe I can do this in like 18 months. And then I had applied for the cybersecurity talent initiative and they were like, well, you have to be a senior graduating, you know, this May or June for this program. And I thought, well, I mean, if I push hard, I can probably do that. You know, it's just no harm in trying. So that was really my biggest motivating factors when I actually got through their selection process. And they were like, you know, we really want to hire you. And I was like, well, I guess I'm graduating now.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. So, Certifications are often talked about. Some people say they don't really matter. Some people love them, hate them. Anywho, I know for our coursework, we have to go through lots of different certifications. What was your favorite certification or what one has brought you the most benefit?
SPEAKER_02That's a good question. I had the most fun studying for the Penn Test Plus. And it was also the most challenging because I came across so much that I hadn't learned yet. And so many tools that I hadn't encountered before but it's so fun like it's so fun so that was really my favorite to study for as far as benefit goes I don't know yet because I haven't started working but I think they all have value and I understand the debate between certifications and whether you know they're all that or not I think they can be kind of a gatekeeping tool but I think they're also a good way to kind of indicate what you have learned and what knowledge you possess and not everyone tests well and so I don't I wouldn't say that you know they should be mandatory but I think they're helpful
SPEAKER_00all very good points that does sound like a lot of fun I'm trying to decide personally between going for the SISA or the pen test plus here next year so start
SPEAKER_02with the SISA because that covers a lot of the information that comes up on Pentest Plus. I feel like the Pentest kind of builds on that and really takes it to a much higher technical level and obviously is more Pentest focused. But I did it in the opposite order. So the SISA was easier than I was expecting because I'd already encountered so much of it on the Pentest. And I think if I'd done the SISA first, I would have been a little bit more prepared for the Pentest and not been like, oh my gosh, this is so hard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Good to know. Yeah, it was good
SPEAKER_01to tell you the same thing. Do the sci-sci first. Yep. If you're doing both, do the sci-sci first. Yeah. Makes sense. Okay, so Jalene, who has been your biggest supporter or a mentor or a role model over the course of your degree?
SPEAKER_02I have really looked up to Naomi Buchwalter. I think she is doing a lot to encourage people to break in cybersecurity and to encourage employers to hire non-traditional applicants because they do have something to bring to the table. It's not about the traditional help desk to making your way up from the bottom ranks of IT and going through all those different iterations before you're finally worthy of cybersecurity because there really needs to be a broader focus for cybersecurity than that. And so I I've really appreciated the way she speaks out to advance the field and to get everyone, not just cybersecurity professionals, engaged in being more aware of security issues and taking charge of ways they can protect themselves and just kind of broadening that scope so that we have more perspectives and we have more skill sets and different ways of seeing problems and issues and approaching how to solve them. in the field and it's not just you know a technical advancement through the ranks but more of a holistic approach I guess
SPEAKER_00absolutely and I'm pretty excited I believe she's coming to speak at the club next month
SPEAKER_02she is they put out the form asking for recommendations and I was like oh you should totally as long as I've been in the cyber security club we have not had a woman speak and so that was kind of one of my things is that I would love to see a female in cybersecurity come in and represent. And so I threw her name in the suggestion bin and then Benny sent me a message and I was like, hey, can you contact her and get her to come speak to the club? And I was like, wait, me? I have to go reach out to her? And I was like all twitterpated and a little starstruck. But I did it.
SPEAKER_01Very nice. Well, that's excellent. Oh, I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fantastic. Yes. I have tried to get women speakers before, so I'm glad you were able to do that. That's awesome. You were trying to say something, Neil? I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00It's all good. I was going to say, yeah, the initial contact is always the most nerve-wracking.
SPEAKER_02Well, so I didn't have, I mean, we were connected on LinkedIn because she accepted my connection request, but I hadn't, like, spoken to her I've seen her speak several times at other conferences and meetings and whatnot and she's a fantastic presenter so that was my other motivating thing is I mean she really is a great speaker so I kind of was like a little bit like fangirling hard and I was like okay I can do this
SPEAKER_01very good all right oh that's gonna be nice I'm looking forward to that
SPEAKER_02she's really neat I adore her she's gonna be great
SPEAKER_01all right so you had talked about the cyber talent initiative, but outside of that, what would be your dream job in cybersecurity? So if you did not have this job lined up and you were going out to look for a new job right now, what would be your dream job? If I
SPEAKER_02could just pull any job out of my hat and say this is what I want to do, I would love to travel and speak to people about security awareness and not necessarily from the technical standpoint but just from helping people understand the importance of cybersecurity and that it's not just firewalls and technical controls but there's this whole human element to it and I know that that's the hardest part to control for but I kind of love that challenge and I love engaging with others and helping them I feel very passionate about it And so I want to share that passion and help other people understand how it's relatable to them and why it's important. Because I think if it were to be taken out of the technical sphere and approached in a way that is understandable for everyone, I think we would have a lot more success in reducing incidences from the human element. So like people understand, you know, you don't, go downtown and leave your car unlocked right you know you lock your car you don't go grocery shopping and just leave everything open for anyone to come in and rifle through but on the internet we have this idea that we're anonymous and nothing will ever happen to us and i think there's there needs to be a way to help them understand that it's just like you know parking your car somewhere you can't just you shouldn't just leave yourself open to having your identity stolen or having your credentials stolen and that's that there are things you can do that are not complicated. They're not hard to understand. I think they just don't understand why it's important or how important it is.
SPEAKER_01All right. Yes, that would be fantastic. I could see you doing really well in a role like that.
SPEAKER_02It would be fun. I also really like social engineering. This is my devious side. I like to kind of push buttons and see what I can get away with. And I look very innocuous and innocent and motherly and so I just kind of like the idea of trying to see what I can do and then coming in and saying you know you're lucky that I look so innocent and I actually am because I mean I do recognize you know if I looked a different way I would be treated a lot more suspiciously going through security checkpoints or whatever but because I'm an older white female you know nobody looks at me and suspects that I have any kind of ill intent or nefarious motives behind you know my sneaking in or coming in without a badge or whatever it is I might do so I kind of like to push that button and then say look you know you've got to check that bias out you can't prejudge people you need to do your job equally with everyone you can't just be like oh well you know she's not going to do anything look at her
SPEAKER_01yeah
SPEAKER_00so do you think this means we will see you at some some engineering competitions in the future.
SPEAKER_02Maybe. You never know. Or maybe you won't see me because I'll be disguised and you'll have no idea. We
SPEAKER_01won't recognize her.
SPEAKER_02You'll hear about it later and then he'll be like, no, that wasn't you. I'll be like, okay.
SPEAKER_00I have heard some stories of some pretty good disguises. That's like half the fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. There's a dressing like it's called gray man method. You dress very plain and so nobody will actually remember you because nothing stood out.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Then there's always the super ostentatious, like, if you go in looking all fancy and wealthy and ditzy and, like, you have no brains in your head, then that also would work well, especially with certain people.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02So going back into the gender thing, I think there are a lot of advantages to being a female in this field. And I think sometimes that people, like there is that bias there, of course, against female. And sometimes it's a little bit more challenging. But there are also advantages because a lot of people underestimate us. And so I think we can maybe get away with a little bit more because they're not suspecting it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Good points. So out of everything we've talked about so far, what would be your number one takeaway that you'd want to leave our listeners with?
SPEAKER_02As far as school goes, I think my biggest bit of advice would be to utilize all of the resources that are out there. You don't have to do this in a vacuum. You're not alone. Everyone else who's done this before you and everyone who's doing it alongside you can be a fantastic resource for support and help and different approaches to learning. Definitely join your social clubs because it's not just about the social aspect. You're going to learn a lot. You're going to make some great connections. You're going to make friends. You're going to find out about different learning opportunities that you maybe would not have encountered otherwise. So take advantage of all of that, all of the subscriptions that your schools have access to. I praise LinkedIn Learning a lot because I really have enjoyed their videos the most. I think of all of the videos we've done for learning resources, they're very well done. So, you know, the LinkedIn Learning is a great resource. Cybersecurity Club at WGU. If you're a student there, absolutely join. Yeah, I think that's my biggest thing.
SPEAKER_00All right. Thank you so much. Where can our listeners connect with you online?
SPEAKER_02You can find me on LinkedIn at jillian-vanostrand.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. It was a pleasure having you here today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for inviting me to join you. I had fun.
SPEAKER_01So thanks for listening to the Security Chipmunks. And remember, if it seems overwhelming, just keep chipping away at it
UNKNOWNThank you.