Smart Sex, Smart Love with Dr Joe Kort

Richard Jewell on Recovery, Sober Sex, and Finding Your Worth

• Dr Joe Kort • Season 5 • Episode 9

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 32:44

Richard D. Jewell, CPRC is a certified peer recovery coach with Lifeboat Addiction Recovery Services, a SAG-AFTRA actor, educator, investigator, and longtime advocate for addiction recovery and personal transformation. His work has taken him across criminal investigations, higher education, workforce development, addiction recovery, and the film industry. Today, he works directly with individuals and families impacted by substance use disorder, helping people navigate recovery, access support, and build meaningful lives rooted in worth, wellness, and hope.

In this conversation, Richard Jewell and Dr. Joe Kort explore what recovery looks like today and how the field has changed over the years. Richard explains the role of a certified peer recovery coach, how it differs from an AA sponsor, and why recovery support must look at the whole person, not just the substance. He discusses the eight pillars of wellness, including emotional, environmental, financial, intellectual, physical, spiritual, occupational, and social well-being, and how these areas can help someone rebuild a life worth living.

They also discuss the importance of addressing sexuality, intimacy, trauma, and sober sex within recovery. Richard shares why people in recovery may not know what sex or relationships feel like without substances, and why shame-free conversations about sexual identity, abuse, intimacy, and presence are essential. He also reflects on his own relationship with his wife and how working with Dr. Kort helped them build a monogamous, loving, soulful relationship that has lasted for decades.

The conversation also looks at addiction as a disease, not a choice, and why substance use disorder must be understood through compassion, science, and lived experience. Richard talks about emotional development, relationships in early recovery, relapse, denial, rationalization, medication, recovery campuses, and the importance of supportive environments. He also discusses why rules like avoiding relationships for the first year of sobriety may come from a valid concern, but should not always be treated as one-size-fits-all.

Richard and Dr. Kort also explore harm reduction, Narcan, mocktails, recovery-friendly workplaces, LGBTQ+ communities in recovery, mental health, suicidal thoughts, worthiness, and what it means to help people find their value again. Richard shares powerful insight from his own life and work, including how recovery coaching can help people access treatment, housing, Medicaid, identification, food, clothing, and long-term support.

Listen to this Smart Sex, Smart Love episode as Dr. Joe Kort talks with Richard Jewell about addiction recovery, peer recovery coaching, sober sex, trauma, relationships, worthiness, harm reduction, recovery-friendly workplaces, the eight pillars of wellness, and what it really means to build a life worth living.

Support the show

JOE KORT:

Hi everyone, welcome to Smart Sex, Smart Love. We're talking about sex goes beyond the taboo, and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. My guest today is Richard D. Jewell, a certified peer recovery coach with Lifeboat Addiction Recovery Services, a SAG-AFTRA actor, educator, investigator, and longtime advocate for addiction recovery and personal transformation, Richard has spent decades working across multiple fields, including criminal investigations, higher education, workforce development, addiction recovery, and the film industry. He served as a criminal investigator and regulatory supervisor for the state of Michigan taught in the Michigan State University School of Criminal Justice, and has helped develop educational and workforce training programs throughout his career. Today, Richard works directly with individuals and families impacted by substance use disorder, helping people navigate recovery and build meaningful, fulfilling lives. Welcome, Richard.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Thank you. That sounded so good. Well, enough about me. What do you think about..

JOE KORT:

I think it's great that you're doing this. So, I'm just going to tell you from my perspective. I started my career early on in chemical dependency. I worked for five years for Henry Ford Maple Grove, and I learned so much, and I'm so glad that people are still doing this important work, and can't wait to hear the updates that have happened since the 80s.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Wow, that's that. Yeah, a lot, a lot has happened. One, the title I hold, Certified Peer Recovery Coach, is a licensed, trained, certified position with the state of Michigan, as it is with several states that bring peers, like-minded people, to do the work with others who are suffering from from addiction, and to develop a way for them to build a life again, which is really a nice, a nice way of combining two aspects, which has been done informally in the past. So, how is

JOE KORT:

this? How is it different than a spot like someone gets a sponsor in AAA? How are you different?

RICHARD JEWELL:

Well, first of all, a sponsor is directed at AA, and their form, their foremost concern is to teach the program of Alcoholics Anonymous to that sponsor to help them live on a daily basis, now a peer recovery coach, we bring the recovery perspective, but we open up the panorama to include all eight pillars of wellness, and we employ motivational interviewing and other techniques, PDR, numerous trainings that we go through to literally become a life coach to help that person organize, strategize, and develop a life that they wish to leave, live, and it includes harm reduction. Sometimes, sometimes people won't quit,

JOE KORT:

but they struggle. We

RICHARD JEWELL:

have to look at harm reduction as a goal,

JOE KORT:

so let's talk about first the eight pillars of recovery. You said that already. Can you tell us eight pillars

RICHARD JEWELL:

of wellness? Yeah,

JOE KORT:

of wellness.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Yeah, those, those are the emotional, environmental, financial, intellectual, physical, spiritual, occupational, and social dimensions. Okay, we literally can sit with a client, and once you know, and we look at this in the Maslow hierarchy of needs. Usually, when we meet with a client first, they're in crisis, you know, they are at the base level of the Maslow hierarchy of needs. So, let's get them what they need to stabilize that, may be treatment, that might be inpatient, outpatient, it may be housing, it may be financial. We can do all of that, and the thing I like about Lifeboat is that we really focus on the street. I spent my first year working a lot in the temporarily unhoused shelters in Lansing, and in the library, and at the bus station, literally sitting there taking people off the street, getting them into treatment, getting them the help they needed, getting them the food they needed, getting them the clothing they needed, and learning that quite often these people are even viewed as people,

JOE KORT:

yeah.

RICHARD JEWELL:

And, and I learned, I learned so much from them, and I still work with that population quite frequently. That's great.

JOE KORT:

Now, how come there's not a ninth pillar of sexual health? That's always my pet peeve, since I'm a sex therapist, what about it? Was always my pet peeve, even back in the day, that recovery didn't include sexuality issues

RICHARD JEWELL:

under dimensions of wellness, you know, definitely, because to me identification is very critical. Well, and as a caveat to the people and your listeners, Joe was my wife and I's therapist 30 years ago, who gave us the tools to have a monogamous, loving, soulful relationship for the last 30 years. So, God bless you, Joe, for that.

JOE KORT:

Yeah, thank you so much. It was a joy,

RICHARD JEWELL:

and some of the things that we talked about, and, and, and for those people who have suffered some form of abuse, you know, it's very critical to be able to open up and develop what the needs are in that area, without shame, without, without blame, without restriction, and we do that as peer recovery coaches, so it is being answered on a daily basis, because it, as you know, it's so critical,

JOE KORT:

it's so critical, and sometimes people's sober sex is really difficult for them.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Well, I think you know when you're talking with an addict, we don't know until we get in recovery what sober sex is like, and and there's a transition because you go through brachiation, you go through a lot of things, because a lot of times, and for me that was a traumatic affair, I was just talking with a client who was just in a new relationship, and he said he was talking with his partner and asked about their first sexual encounter, and he told him mine was 12, and his partner, he said mine was seven with my cousin, who abused me, and he'd never heard that before, and he was asking me, How do I deal with that? I said, Well, empathetically listening, you make yourself open to be a container, not to advise, but to just listen, and also to be aware, is he present in sobriety with the sexual, or is he, is he bracicating to another individual, which happens, I think, quite frequently.

JOE KORT:

That's other great questions, and I'm glad that you're including that, because so many still don't. In 2026 you would just think it would be even in not just recovery spaces, but just in psychiatric spaces, mental health spaces, it's just not there.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Well, you know, you look at SAMHSA, and for all their fault, they did put together the statistics about the GLBTQ communities, and we saw a higher risk potentiality. I think sometimes they, that's nefarious to look at, because it almost disorders that because of what they're saying, so I think there's a way to reframe that. Number one, I think the LGBTQ community is very, very, very protective and helpful, and if I were to look at clients overall, I think sometimes they, in terms of the sexual identity in that group, are more readily open to working on their recovery than sometimes the opposite or heterosexual people.

JOE KORT:

Why do you think that is? It's so interesting.

RICHARD JEWELL:

I think because of the openness that's exhibited, the sense of community that needs to be had in that, because of the pervasive opposition and prejudice that is against that community, it comes together in a way I think that's trans dent transcends a lot of barriers, you know, and that I don't think that's any stereotypical answer, that's I think the truth,

JOE KORT:

no, and what's nice about what you're saying is the gay male community, at least, that I can speak about, they're not very united, they're very divisive and cliquey, and really pretty shitty to each other. But in the recovery movement, it is not like that. In the recovery movement, it's, it's a team, it's teamwork, and people really are accepted and brought in as

RICHARD JEWELL:

one. Yeah, I think you know, maybe the whole world should be in recovery, Joe. I know,

JOE KORT:

I know,

RICHARD JEWELL:

because it's a great way to live.

JOE KORT:

It is now. Do you ever have clients where this is what I used to notice, too, as a therapist, they'd get into recovery, which is great, but then they couldn't go any deeper than a recovery speak. So, like, if I was trying to teach them mental health, go deeper, there's childhood, there's mom, there's dad, there's other things that could be contributing, they couldn't go there, they were, they were tied to the recovery, and they, they didn't want to do the mental health part. Have you seen that in there in your work?

RICHARD JEWELL:

Yeah, and we are so open to discussing that, and by, you know, using techniques like motivation, motivational interviewing, we can get through to, and we have the resources available for that type of therapy, and we have the resources available for free too, for those who can't afford it. Okay, and and that's our job is to get that person to a point where they at least will be open to dealing with that through using motivational interviewing. How's that working for you? What do you think would be another answer? Are you willing to even look at that, because I know personally, and you know that without delving into the causes and conditions that first precipitated the substance use you you're not really going to fully gain access to recovery,

JOE KORT:

right? Right. And some people will say, you know, how come I don't feel better? I was, I was promised that after I stopped, and it's obviously the stopping, and you're not, you know, using the same dopamine and the highs that you would get during the drug or alcohol use, but it's also the mental health issues that all rise to the top,

RICHARD JEWELL:

and we've proven that scientifically, Joe, with the new studies coming out, and I'm happy to send them to you about the chemicals in the brains, and I'll be very, very sophomoric with this, the chemical, yeah, please tell us that addicts have present that that that control their craving to an unsatiable level can be replaced with chemicals in the brain, brought about recovery, meditation, spiritual things that are used within the community, mental health, individual growth, insight, but they don't, they don't continue if you don't do the work.

JOE KORT:

Yeah, right, that's really helpful to hear. Can you say, and I can't believe this is still even a question. It was a question in the 80s when I was doing this, one of the most common questions people ask is whether addiction is a choice or a disease. How do you answer that?

RICHARD JEWELL:

Yeah, we proven beyond a doubt it's a disease,

JOE KORT:

right?

RICHARD JEWELL:

And a disease, if you define it as a condition which, left untreated, causes the death of the organism if it's

JOE KORT:

fully,

RICHARD JEWELL:

but it's also called a disease because it affects the brain in such a manner as it debilitates to the point of death one's brain's ability to function, so it is a disease and is protected under the ADA. If you are in recovery, you have the right to working environments and living environments that are conducive to your recovery, even to the point now at Michigan State University, and at U of M, which I don't like to say, but

JOE KORT:

yeah, me too.

RICHARD JEWELL:

We have the Collegiate Recovery Campus that actually has a Michigan State one of the first living dorms that is recovery based, they can't have alcohol within a parameter of that living area,

JOE KORT:

that's awesome,

RICHARD JEWELL:

or drugs, yeah. And so, do you understand that, that, that, that is a protected status too?

JOE KORT:

I don't remember the name of, oh, the gelnik chart. Do you guys still use that?

RICHARD JEWELL:

Yeah, they do. Yeah, the slipper, yeah, it's still used in alcohol. Okay, the

JOE KORT:

reason I ask is, do you think about that? Because I remember there were stages of the progression of the disease. Is there a certain stage you can work with somebody and you can't work with somebody

RICHARD JEWELL:

personally? I don't think there's any stage you can't, as long as they're cognizant, they're their brain is functioning so that they can move beyond just the physical rudimentary motions. Yeah, you can work with anybody,

JOE KORT:

because I remember the later stages, it was so difficult, their denial, they're right

RICHARD JEWELL:

there, you know. My father is a good example, he was a chronic alcoholic who would relapse, relapse, and abandon us. And not only the issues I got from that, I've done a lot of work with that, and I know that he had a disease, and it wasn't his fault, but they did his autopsy, and part of his brain just was liquefied, which is one of the aspects of severe alcoholism, is liquefication.

JOE KORT:

Yeah,

RICHARD JEWELL:

yeah,

JOE KORT:

wow, that's scary.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Yeah, it is. But fear, you know, it's a disease. Yeah, symptoms are denial, rationalization, and justification, as is any form of substance use disorder.

JOE KORT:

Where does the.. we still call it the disease model, right? So, where does that stand? Because I remember in the 80s, anyways, it was, you know, you shouldn't be on any medications either, and that kind of thing. Is that still the case?

RICHARD JEWELL:

No, because we understand that there are physiological chemical imbalances in the brain, which are systemic to certain mental health situations,

JOE KORT:

as

RICHARD JEWELL:

defined in the new DSM. They're there,

JOE KORT:

yes,

RICHARD JEWELL:

and that the only way to control them is through finding the right mix of medication. To give you a baseline of what would be considered normal, we know that.

JOE KORT:

Good, I'm glad that's been updated. And the other thing that always used to bother me, and now it really even more so as a relationship therapist. So, I don't know how it is today, but they would say, "You got, you got to stay out of a relationship for a year. Do you believe that? I don't believe that.

RICHARD JEWELL:

I, I believe in the reasons why they say that, but I don't know if that's a good rule, because, like, for instance, Eileen and I got together in my first six months of sobriety, we were smart enough to come to you, so, so I say this, you know, and the reason that we say that is this, that most of the time with most people who have a substance use disorder, that the first time they use, that's where they stop emotionally developing, because we found our answer. So, I literally was a 12 year old boy and a 40 year old body. That's not good being in a relationship with a 12 year old boy and a 40 year old body does not work out. Let me tell you, and and so when that that saying came about is, hey, you're probably not emotionally ready or are at a level of maturity to handle a good healthy loving relationship, that's really what we're saying, so consider that when you walk into a relationship, because it ain't going to turn out well, you know, most of the time, and that's why Eileen and I, my wife, and I went to you, because I, I thought monogamy was a type of wood,

JOE KORT:

that's a great line,

RICHARD JEWELL:

I had no idea what it meant, I had no, I knew great rage and great sadness, I had no idea what the feelings were. In between, I knew that I really found a joy with this person that I'd never had before, and I knew that I didn't want to ruin

JOE KORT:

it.

RICHARD JEWELL:

And likewise with Eileen, we had to learn from you how to be in a mature adult loving relationship.

JOE KORT:

I really like what you're saying, so it's not necessarily.. I mean, I get it too. I get the reasons. Is you know, you get into a relationship, there's a power struggle, there's conflict that arises, and that can contribute to a relapse. But at the same time, if you do it under supervision, right, you go to a therapist, you do it, maybe get other sponsors to assist you. You, if you found the love of your life in a meeting, it may not be the love of your life, it may feel that way, but if it is something that could be long term, I don't see why that should be a problem.

RICHARD JEWELL:

No, I don't, I don't, I don't disagree with you, and I certainly were, I'm the poster child for that, right?

JOE KORT:

You are,

RICHARD JEWELL:

but the caveat was we went and got help,

JOE KORT:

yes, yeah,

RICHARD JEWELL:

we went because we could see where our errors were, otherwise it would just turn into another power struggle, and as we learned, and you taught us, is, hey, do you want to do this with each other and just want to move away and then get back to this spot with somebody else, because that's what's going to happen,

JOE KORT:

right? Right, exactly. All right, so talk about what it's like when someone calls you and says, I need help, I'm in recovery, you're a peer recovery coach. What do you.. what do you.. what am I going to experience?

RICHARD JEWELL:

Come in, sit down, let's talk, tell me what's going on. And through sharing, literally listening, empathetic listening, I garner what their story is. I will intersperse a bit with mine, so that there can be an understanding that that I understand we'll look at what, what do you need right now? If somebody were asking, name the three things you need, what do you need? Well, I need to get into rehab. Okay, you need to get into rehab. I need a place to live. Okay, you need a place to live. I need some. Okay, I need some money. Most important would probably be rehab. Why? What? What medical? Then we'll get into the problematic. What medical coverage you have? Do you have Medicaid? You don't have Medicaid. Great, let's get you signed up. Okay.

JOE KORT:

Oh, you'll help people with that.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Yeah, we'll help. We'll help people get their birth certificates, get their identifications. Medicaid, get signed up. We'll sit here and go through that, and then we'll help them get in to treatment. So that's just the base level, and we have those tools available, and we're very good at that. Any peer recovery coach worth their salt would be good at that.

JOE KORT:

And then, do you stay with them, or do you let them go into

RICHARD JEWELL:

them as a peer recovery coach until they want to fire us, and one of the things that we preach is we're your coach, we're not your counselor, we're not your therapist, you know, we're not not your advisor, we're your coach, whatever you want, whatever you determine that you want, and we can do that, we will help you get, whether it's, it's intellectually, school, environmentally, where you're living, what you're doing, whether you're with your finances, we have the tools to help you set what your mission is, what your goals are, what your objectives, and what those tasks are that are related to each of those, so that we can develop. A game plan, a holistic 360 game plan for your life.

JOE KORT:

Now, when you say your life, and you cut your, you'll often say a life worth living. Can you say what you mean by that? A

RICHARD JEWELL:

life worth worth living is really defined by each individual. You're living a life worth living when you get up, and even though you might have problems and troubles, you enjoy what you're doing, you feel fulfilled, and here's a word that isn't used, I think, in substance use disorder a lot: worthiness. You know, I know what it feels like to be worthless, I know what it feels like to be hopeless, I know what it feels like to want to kill yourself, and I know what it feels like to attempt to do that. That is an awful place to be,

JOE KORT:

horrible,

RICHARD JEWELL:

and I can feel it even to this day. This moment, I can recall those feelings. They don't have power or control over me, because I know that feelings are a reaction to something, but I know what it's like, and to walk around with that cast over you with substance use disorder, when there are solutions, you know that's that's that's finding your worthiness.

JOE KORT:

Yeah, right. That's

RICHARD JEWELL:

what we do, is we help people find their worth and value.

JOE KORT:

Now, how do you help them if they're in relationship with somebody that still drinks, they're not an alcoholic, they don't abuse it, but they're still actively using..

RICHARD JEWELL:

well, that depends on.. we never say, well, you, we never tell anybody what to do. Well, get out of the relationship. I hear that all the time from friends, you know. You sit around, well, what the hell you doing in that relationship? Well, well, Bob, welcome. You're 300 pounds,

JOE KORT:

right? Yeah,

RICHARD JEWELL:

come on, you know you investigate and find out, well, what, what can you do at home that's going to help you? Would so and so be willing to come in and talk about maybe doing some, some partners in, in Al-Anon or Narconon or Smart Recovery for families and friends,

JOE KORT:

yes,

RICHARD JEWELL:

Buddhist, you know, Dharma, all those things. What, what, what would you be willing to do together? Is that person supportive of you, and what does it look like for you to find that support? So, those are the questions I would be asking them.

JOE KORT:

Great questions. What are other key things you do with your clients when you're working with them, anything that we didn't talk about.

RICHARD JEWELL:

I really stress the fact that we are a long-term relationship. You know, people spend 1000s of dollars a month hiring life coaches. We're free.

JOE KORT:

Well, you're free because who pays you

RICHARD JEWELL:

grants,

JOE KORT:

grants? Okay, that's good.

RICHARD JEWELL:

And private donors,

JOE KORT:

yes.

RICHARD JEWELL:

And one of the speaking of that, one of the things that I'm working on, and that I'm advocating here and in Florida is recovery friendly workplace. Oh yeah,

JOE KORT:

talk about that. Yes,

RICHARD JEWELL:

yeah, the in the one place where everybody gathers is either home, you know, or work. That's what people do. 75% of people who identify as substance abuse users are employed full time. Think about that. 75% of people with substance use disorder are employed full time in the construction business. 20% of people suffer from substance use disorder. It goes from 20% to 10% depending on the job field.

JOE KORT:

Wow,

RICHARD JEWELL:

so let's look at the workplace as the place that can become friendly, understanding, compassionate, and be willing to open up and allow recovery to occur by training them appropriately. Let's do the workplace: one, it creates more productive employees; two, it reduces loss and increase $8,500 a year per employee with substance use loss from business. $81 billion in our nation is lost. People from absenteeism, presenteeism, you know what presenteeism is?

JOE KORT:

No,

RICHARD JEWELL:

it's when you show up for work and you're not really there, you're present, but you ain't.

JOE KORT:

What is the word

RICHARD JEWELL:

presenteeism? Oh, absenteeism, but put present in front.

JOE KORT:

Oh, got it. Yes,

RICHARD JEWELL:

that's one of the words we've coined in recovery friendly workplace.

JOE KORT:

How

RICHARD JEWELL:

many times I remember showing up for work and just feeling like so hungover that I'm literally just there.

JOE KORT:

Yeah,

RICHARD JEWELL:

you know, and that's loss.

JOE KORT:

That's so helpful. I still.. I don't know why the whole Maple Grove, maybe because I was a young therapist, but it was in. Tense, I was doing the intensive outpatient program, so these people would come through, and eventually it was just a route, what do you call it, like it was the same thing over and over again, people coming in, we do lectures, but I just, what I remember was some people, they would all come in, and many of them would say, you know, I don't really know how I need this program, as soon as I got my consequences, as soon as I got my drunk driving charge, my 1231, as soon as my wife left me, I'm good, I don't even think about, and I remember saying to them things like, wait a minute, this, when the consequences are relieved, you will find if you don't do this work, you'll be right back where, and sure enough, as soon as the charges were dropped, the wife came back, whatever it was, they were back to drinking.

RICHARD JEWELL:

I call that being on the river of denial with your or of rationalization and justification, just rowing away, you know? Right, everything's fine out here, you know.

JOE KORT:

It feels good. And then they would do this. You must have clients to do this. They would say, "Well, I tested myself and I went to the parking lot, and I just sat there. I didn't go in. That was a win, and I learned over the years that's not a testing of yourself, that's your addict. I don't know what you guys call it now, but we would say your addict flirting with the idea that I might go in. Don't you agree that

RICHARD JEWELL:

that's that's that's it, you know? Or I went to the bar, and all I drank was cranberry juice,

JOE KORT:

right? Yeah. Well,

RICHARD JEWELL:

great. Your HPH is balanced, and you piss like a racehorse, but you're still a fucking addict.

JOE KORT:

Wait, it's good with the podcast. You can swear. Wait, you made me think it's.. oh, what about back in the day? They didn't believe in O'Doules and all the non-alcoholic drinks. What did.. what do you think of that?

RICHARD JEWELL:

Well, I think if you have alcohol and your body is stimulated to a craving status when any amount of alcohol. Personally, I don't use mouthwash with alcohol. I do not use NyQuil with alcohol. No, I don't use anything that has alcohol. Oh, duels to me, I might as well have a beer.

JOE KORT:

Oh, you don't like it?

RICHARD JEWELL:

You know it has, it has alcohol, kamchi or kimchi or kabuka, buca tea, that has alcohol, and I don't drink that.

JOE KORT:

What about the mocktails at restaurants these days?

RICHARD JEWELL:

Well, the mocktails are okay, because they're, you know, I ordered one the other day just to see what it was like. Yeah, it was pretty good. It was bitters and lemon, and right had my six year old granddaughter taste it because the bitters were in it, and she goes, "Oh yeah, mocktail. We actually under workplace friendly or recovery friendly workplace suggest that employers have mocktail parties.

JOE KORT:

Oh, that's interesting.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Instead of playing beer pong, play peanut butter pong instead of peanut butter football into a beer cup, bounce it into a cracker with peanut butter on

JOE KORT:

it. Oh,

RICHARD JEWELL:

if it sticks, you win.

JOE KORT:

Now, some people would say, well, can't that cause relapse if it's early recovery?

RICHARD JEWELL:

You know, I personally, if I'm going to.. if I have to be someplace for a family outing and they're serving alcohol, and I would like a drink. I'll order a mocktail.

JOE KORT:

Okay, I like it. I like it. That's

RICHARD JEWELL:

fair.

JOE KORT:

Yeah, you're more permissive. I think it was just very rigid. Maybe it was the program, but maybe it was also the 80s. I think I

RICHARD JEWELL:

think the rigidity of some of the things in the past has loosened up good. It really has more to do with the person's mindset and the reason for being there, are they there to catch a vicarious thrill, or are they there for a specific purpose?

JOE KORT:

Let me ask you this, and I have heard that this has changed, but I don't know what you think, and I've always thought this, even back in the day, that not everybody who stops has to stay stopped. There are some people that in their life they got into a compulsive place with alcohol or drugs, and now they do the work, they go through recovery, and they might be able to go back to to social drinking or social use. Do you agree with that?

RICHARD JEWELL:

I've seen that I don't tell people, hey, after you get all done with this, you know, maybe you can drink again, right? I was told that after a few years, and I went back out, and it was not pretty,

JOE KORT:

okay? Right, because you never know if you're the person that's going to be able to do it or not, but I

RICHARD JEWELL:

don't think you can tell,

JOE KORT:

no,

RICHARD JEWELL:

there's no test, there's no, so why, why flirt with the devil,

JOE KORT:

right? But, but AA has gotten loose around that, hasn't they? Haven't they, or no?

RICHARD JEWELL:

I don't know if AA has, but I think in substance use disorder treatment, that's where harm reduction came about.

JOE KORT:

Oh yeah, talk about that.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Well, harm reduction is when you know, okay, if you're using meth, are you using clean needles, are you using how are you, how are you doing it if you're, if you're using heroin again, clean needles, are you carrying Narcan? We reduce deaths by overdose by 30% in the United States. I have Narcan with me. Everybody who becomes a recovery-friendly workplace certified, we give them a Narcan case to put on their wall, they. Saves lives. Are you doing things that are going to make less harm for you if you choose to use your drug? Because we don't want you to die,

JOE KORT:

right? Right,

RICHARD JEWELL:

because that is, believe me, we don't want you to die. Now, some people get very callous and say, oh, well, those drug users ought to be, you know, they deserve to die. I

JOE KORT:

know,

RICHARD JEWELL:

buddy, how many people in your family, you know,

JOE KORT:

right,

RICHARD JEWELL:

have substance use disorder? They don't deserve to die, right? Death like that. I watched my mother, my brother, my sister, my father, all die of substance use disorder, and it was not pretty.

JOE KORT:

Thank you so much for coming on my show and talking about this, and being a resource that is accessible to people. So, how can they find you?

RICHARD JEWELL:

Well, they can find me by giving me a call at Lifeboat Addiction Recovery Services, and just looking for my phone number.

JOE KORT:

Oh, you don't know it by heart.

RICHARD JEWELL:

Hang on, no, I have a photographic memory, Joe has developed yet. Okay, it's 517-977-1772 That's 517-977-1772 If you are not in my area, I certainly have great recovery coaches all through Michigan, who I know, even nationally, I know who are incredible people, are more than willing to help. Be happy to refer, but hey, before making that decision, you know, or before going out again, give us a call.

JOE KORT:

Good, and we'll put all the links to your stuff as well, and the phone number on our website.

RICHARD JEWELL:

And Joe, thank you. Because I love you, you saved my relationship. You, you brought joy and pleasure to my life for 30 years. I think anybody would be crazy if they didn't have a chance to work with you, not to work with you.

JOE KORT:

Thank you. That's, I really appreciate that. And it's a pleasure knowing all these years later you're still together in recovery, you know. That's like a therapist's dream, is that it works to the

RICHARD JEWELL:

poster child. Put us on your door.

JOE KORT:

All right, you can hear more of my podcast at Smartsex Smart love.com and you can also follow me on Twitter, Tick Tock, Instagram, Facebook, all at Dr. Joe Court, D R J O E K O R T. Thanks for listening. And until next time, stay safe and stay healthy. All right.

Unknown:

Bye.