Company Fit: Startup vs Corporate

Back this week after the live episode debacle! This week we're chatting about what type of environment might be a better fit for you, corporate or startup? We break down the pros and cons of both types of environments and which one we like best. Join us!

Like us? Give us a review on Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know!

Check out our website https://www.breakingbytespod.io
Want to give feedback? Fill out our survey 

Follow Breaking Down the Bytes!

 Linkedin |  Twitter | Facebook | Discord

Email us! - breakingbytespod@gmail.com

Follow Pat and Kyle!

Twitter:

Pat | Kyle

Transcript

Pat: 0:31

Hello everybody. Welcome back to this week's edition of Breaking Down the Bites. As usual, I'm Pat and you can find me on Twitter at@layer8packet. That is the number eight. Kyle's riding shotgun with me as well. He is on Twitter as well. At@Danath256, you can find the show on Twitter at@breakinbytespod. So we're pretty active on Twitter, so come say hello if you want to be friends with us, and we always like friends. So if you like the show, which I hope you do, that's why you're joining us, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite streaming platform of choice. If you go to our website, breakingbytespod.io, there is a link to subscribe and it has a bunch of platforms there. So choose your favorite and subscribe. That would be awesome, Kyle. What's up man? How you doing?

Kyle: 1:22

Hello. Dealing with the cold a little bit, but we got some pretty colors here now. Leaves are changing. Everything else is going pretty good though.

Pat: 1:28

That's true. Yep, that is true. We do have some good fall here in, in Pennsylvania where Kyle and I are. So, it is getting a little chilly. I gotta admit, I gotta put a sweater on in the morning. I'm usually still rocking the shorts, but I have a sweater on, so it's all good.

Kyle: 1:42

Yeah. Two days in a row. I've had to do some windshield defrosting. So been real nice.

Pat: 1:49

That's right. That new car that I bought you, I can control it from my phone from an app so I can remote start that. No problem.

Kyle: 1:56

That's so ridiculous.

Pat: 1:57

wife likes it, so it's all good. She's driving so I'm not

Kyle: 2:00

All right. Right.

Pat: 2:03

But anyway yeah, everybody, thanks again for joining us on another, Episode this week. We had our live episode last week and Kyle and I are not too proud to admit that that did not go the way it uh, that we'd like it to. So that was the reason for the whole last week there was no show cuz we were just gonna republish the live episode as the weekly Tuesday. But that did not go well for us. So we learned some technical lessons off of that. So, be on the lookout for it horror stories 2.0 in the near future. We got it all straightened out where we got a whole thing planned. So, yeah, be on the lookout for that. But yeah, no, no show last week due to the technical difficulties and the the flop, if you will. So there's no shame in our game. We're coming right out and saying it. That's

Kyle: 2:46

That was a horror story in itself.

Pat: 2:48

right. We proved our own point in that episode, so, so yeah. So, apologies for last week and missing the rotation, but we are back this week for another good episode. I think it's been on the docket for a while. I think we are gonna talk about this another combo episode tonight, but I think they flow well together. Tonight we are talking what's the company best fit, right? Is it a corporate environment or is it a startup, you know, environment? You know, which one is that? So I think that's it's been asked for before. It's been on the to-do list for quite a while. So I figure we can. We can talk about that one a little bit as far as differences, strengths, weaknesses what we like, what we don't like, that kind of thing. So, and then also since Kyle and I are in different industries as far as, you know, verticals we work in we're gonna talk about some of the, in some of the different industries out there that you know, may be a good fit for different kind of folks. So let's let's start. So I guess Kyle corporate versus startup, right? It's this never ending battle of, you know, you hear, you know, corporate always gets a bad name, like,

Kyle: 3:50

Yeah.

Pat: 3:51

it's stiff suits and rigid folks walking around on eggshells and whatever, but and then the startup is the cool and fun one, right? You're like, Oh, yeah. Start, Yeah. You get, you know, ping pong in the lunch room and, you know, pizza Fridays, or, you know, drinks or whatever. I've been in both And I'll share my experiences here in a bit, but I, I've been in both and they did, they both have their plus and minuses and I think I think size has to do with that as well, right? A large company versus a small company. I think culture plays into that kind of where they fit and maybe they're a blend of both startup versus corporate. So, I guess first kind of thing, you know, again, like. Culture is a big word that gets thrown around today, you know, from a lot of different people's perspective. Right. And I think the startup, the difference between the startup and corporate cultures are vastly different. They're, they don't belong in the same lane, let alone, you know, let alone in the same room the startup environment, right? You typically, you know, it's a fast paced, you know, culture, which, you know, you get creativity and communication. They're all valued in that in that vein, right? But again, size thing I talked about, startups tend to be smaller than large corporations, right? Or should say corporations. Usually if you're a corporation you're scaling you're at the top of the mountain sort of thing. You know, and then typically in, in startup, you're, especially in like the early stages of the startup you have employees that. Building strong relationships and they freely exchange thoughts and ideas because you're all in the same dog fight together, you know, if you will, trying to keep keep the startup going and funding and all that other kind of stuff that they have to balance on their plate. You know, and you have shifting goals I think in the more frequently in a startup culture because the landscape does change. So, you know, quite often. And then, you know, but you may or may not like this, but the start of culture is often, you know, it's perceived as a little less formal than the corporate environment, like I mentioned before. Corporate seems, you know, gets the slap of, you know, suits and ties and, you know, the sea level people walking in line, like in the national Lampoons Chris vacation in the one scene where Clark is, you know, he's sitting in the office and all the sealevel people march by and it sounds like an army. He's marching by him. So, yeah. And, but yeah, you usually at a startup, there's less of that, right? It's less formal. And it's less emphasis on hierarchy, right? Within teams, everyone sort of has a, you know, has a voice, has a collaborative feel to it. I think.

Kyle: 6:19

A little less rigid.

Pat: 6:20

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. That and you know, people, some people like that. Some people like the corporate side, right? Some people like the rigid, I know what I'm doing. I get told my directions, I go out and do tasks A through Z, you know, Monday through Friday and you go home. So it really depends on how you're wired. I think from a bringing perspective, it just depends on which one you'll thrive in more. I think the corporate environment, You know, in the stark contrast of the startup, is it's characterized by more structure, formal approach to company culture, you know? Yeah. Typically a corporate environment, employees, thousands of people it's not uncommon for the employees to be unfamiliar with, you know, their colleagues outside of their immediate teams or departments. Right. It just depends. Right. And especially in the IT world, and I feel like this has gotten, it's gotten better over the last 10 years, but like when you and I broke in Kyle, it was very, Cement walls between departments. Like I said, I think it's gotten better. It's still not quite there yet, but there's very, there was a very cement wallie feel like, you know, we were in the network side. We didn't touch any servers, we didn't touch any DCP servers or we didn't, you know, touch any active directory or any of those type of deal. You had to get somebody else involved for that. Or and, you know, depending on your size of of IT department, you may have pillars inside your own networking department, right? So guys that just touch switches and routers or guys that just do firewalls or guys that, you know what I mean? Those sorts of things. So depending on the structure there you may have cement pillars between teams, let alone I should say cement pillars within your own team, let alone other teams as well, So, but you know, Corporations tend to be a little longer in the tooth as far as how long they've been around. So with that, you know, in those couple of years years experience under their belts, quote unquote, right? They tend to have procedures, protocols, guidelines that sort of drive their daily operations, right? It's you know, it's a playbook. It's a runbook, right? And they're very familiar with that. It's been refined, you know, a million times to, to fit today's, you know, working world, if you will. But you know, that also comes with a trade off, right? So that r rigidness can sometimes slow down, you know, ideas, creativity, innovative processes, things of that nature, because you have that red tape and you know, you gotta talk to 12 people to get. To get a sentence changed in a procedure book, Right? So we've been there. That kinda sucks too. So, it just depends on, you know, your personality on what you're gonna, you know, fit into, you know, best right. Kind of thing. So, anything on that, Kyle, before we

Kyle: 9:08

Yeah, I would definitely say there, there's a lot you know, you, you need to do a, to do B, to do C and maybe get four people involved, you know, and everybody needs to sign off and, you know, cross the t's, dot the i's. Just to get something relatively simple change where, you know, in a not corporate environment, it's just kinda like, you know, hey, I asked the, I asked Bob and he said it was fine. So like, we just did, which we just went live with it, you know,

Pat: 9:38

Yeah, no, that's, that, that's a good point. It, like I said, and that comes down to size and, you know, the smaller your company is, the less red tape. You gotta go through that. That's typically how it goes, right? So instead of going through six managers in a corporate world, you may only have to go through two in a start in a startup, right? So, you know, I think ideas are heard more frequently in the startup environment just because of the structure and you know, hierarchy there. So I guess I guess that kind of leads to, you know, which one is right for you, right? So there's a couple of characteristics I think that kind of lend themselves to, if you like this, then you'll enjoy this environment. Better or worse, Right? So, I guess we'll start with the the startup environment, right? So if you're fast paced, right, ever changing, you know, work environment I think a startup is probably a little better, you know, fit for you, right? So in some aspects I think startups pride themselves on moving quickly, and I think you have a better chance of if you were hired for a particular role at a startup, you know, That role very well may look very different after a few months of being there. Right? And that tends to not happen in the corporate world, right? You get hired for a job, you're going to then do that job for quite a bit unless a need for the business changes, right? And then you kind of change with it, right? But again, startups typically change faster, business needs change faster in a startup than they do with the corporate, you know, structure, that kind of thing. So startups, you're, you know, Working through ambiguity or wearing multiple hats, embracing change, that sort of thing. So if that sounds up your alley, then startup may be a better, you know, a better fit for you. I personally like change. lot of people don't like change, just not even out, like outside of work, like just in life in general. People hate change. I like change. I think it's a good, keeps you on your toes and you know, doesn't, life doesn't get stale, you know, that sort of thing. My wife hates change. Her, you know, her being a teacher, she absolutely hates it. She likes the structure and the rigidness of it, you know, of her job and, you know, sometimes her, you know, her life and that kind of thing. I do like change quite a bit. It keeps things interesting and you know, there's always something new around the corner, right? So, But I think in a, you know, in a corporate world, sort of the other side of that coin in the corporate world is you can kind of benefit from stability and well defined roles, right? So if you're not a fast-paced person, then you know, the corporate's probably a little better fit for you because they have you know, cement walls and age to mature processes and well defined roles, things of that nature. Expected to hit the ground running right day one with, you know, no, or to little orientation at some startups, right? That, that's a big one, right? Startups just kind of go, Hey, let's, you know it's already into the fire and now you're, you know, Yeah. That kind of thing. In a corporate environment, there's typically a, you typically, and I say typically with air quotes well developed. Onboarding and setting you up for success. But we sort of talked about that in the last couple episodes that I think today's onboarding process is quite broken, depending on, you know, who you work for and what vertical you're working in, what industry you're working in. But yeah, I feel like you get a little you get a little better personality if you will with the startup on that sort of thing. Corporate environment, you're just like, Hey, here's your badge to the data center room and your seat's over here. And, you know, you gotta ask people where the lunch room is and what the best to, what the best taco stand is, you know, that kind of thing. So, again, it just depends on your your mindset there. Anything for you, Kyle, on that?

Kyle: 13:17

Yeah. I guess a lot of that just comes to, you know, the rigidity like you said of the, that corporate you know, you get hired for a task and then it's just kind of, you do your thing. Whatever else gets handed off to the next person or whatever, where, you know, in a startup you may wear a few hats and, you know, again, like you said, fast paced. You're switching gears. You're, you know, Hey, I'm doing this now, I'm doing that. You know, you're on the next thing. You're working with a group, you're working by yourself. You're just, you know, getting things done in whatever helps the startup, you know, grow.

Pat: 14:00

Yeah, no, for sure. I think that's that was well said. It's just always, it's always something with the startup and you know, and it seems to be a theme, right? With the first couple of bullet points we laid out. Right? You like, you know, if you like rigid, You're more towards a corporate, if you like the free flowing and the change then maybe the startup is kind of better for you. So I definitely think that is true and that I don't think, I don't see that changing anytime soon. Cuz that kind of goes into our next topic here, as far as like from a, you know, creative minds tend to do better in a startup environment, right? Cuz you're wearing many hats and you get to talk to a bunch of different people and your voice is a little louder because there is less people, right? And then, you know, typically smaller companies they often encourage experimentation and out of the box thinking but typically in a corporate environment, or I should say the larger the company is typically the more regimented and resistant to change the corporate environment is cuz you know, we've done it this way forever, which is by far and large the worst motto ever. Like that is the most awful mindset to ever have. We've done it this way forever. Well, that doesn't mean it's the right way. You know, what, what worked 20 years ago is not gonna work in today's culture and or you know, business lanes. So, but, and I always find this interesting too. Listen to me when I say this, please, For the love of God plan. Whatever you're gonna do project wise, whatever, idea plan. Because there is all, like, it never seems to fail that everyone wants to do this and put it in right away and rush and blah, blah, and get to the next project. And it's like you're, and you're redoing it three months down the road because something was overlooked in the original deployment or whatever. And either you bought a piece of gear that's too small that you gotta upgrade and spend the money anyway, but like, it's like, all right, well there's never enough money to do it right. But there's always enough money to do it twice. I've seen it over and over, just, oh my goodness. Like, you gotta embrace the change. Plan, plan to scale at this stage of the game, you have to plan to scale or else you're going to fail miserably. And I think that line of thinking, I think benefits the startup culture better. Cuz they're more open to the idea of, you know, doing it right once versus, you know, doing it three times different, you know, more you know. The other thing too if you're looking for a startup feel right, is I would say don't and we sort of talked about this a little earlier, but don't shy away from any, from responsibility, right? So, you know, especially in the early stage startups, I think, you know, the people that are there have a ton of responsibility, not only to perform your specific duties, but, you know, take responsibility for, you know, for in the event company fails or your team fails. Like, I feel like that that responsibility lies on more than just decision makers in a startup environment that sort of thing. So, So if that sort of turns you off, or is that, if that sounds like you don't wanna touch that with a 10 foot pole, then you know, corporate may be a better route for you. Cuz then there's a billion people above you structure-wise that can bear that weight on the, on their shoulders. You know, if corporate fails. So, or if the company fails, I should You know, but on the other hand, you may, you know, you may thrive in a high pressure environment, which typically the startup company is a higher pressure environment in some degree. That's not a blanket statement, but in most environments. You know, small, smaller teams generally mean that, you know, you have the ability to take on more responsibility and the flexibility to get involved in different projects. Again, wearing many hats and, you know, things of that nature. But again if you know well defined roles and responsibilities are something that attracts you or sounds good to you, then you know, corporate may be a better flex for you. It depends you know, again on that line of thinking and where your brain sits on the fence. So, you know, I, I'm gonna say this one, but I don't know if it necessarily in today's world means it. And feel free, if anybody's listening and works at a startup, let me know. I think with the flexibility of working in a startup role comes the opportunity to advance quicker. By far, corporations typically have a more rigid, slow path to a sea level. Right. to a sea level person. Right. No doubt about it. But even with the startups, I don't know if it's that quick to say, Okay, look, I'm gonna go from a marketing, you know, a marketing person to, you know, chief marketing officer in a year and a half, right. just it, you know, it's just, I think the business world is certainly changing and I think even the startups folks are kind of slow in that role as far as, from a advancement perspective, I think I dunno what you'd think about that kinda.

Kyle: 19:16

no. Yeah, I would say that it seems to be, you know, pretty accurate. As far as I think back, you know, probably in the past it was much quicker to kinda. Advance quicker in a startup and, you know, you kind of had the steps and the things that you needed to do corporate. But yeah, I guess it's kind of like looking at the two of'em here, one's more of a sprint, you know, the startup is, you know, sprint, you're changing, you're doing something, getting and knocked out, and then you're onto the next thing where corporate's just, I don't know, more of like a marathon. You're just slow and steady working towards the goal, you know, and you're doing it for a long time. Just, you know, wearing that same hat unless, you know, you work your way up or getting to a different position, but the startups just ever changing and fill in whatever position or need you need to do kinda, you know,

Pat: 20:10

Yeah I would agree with that. I think, like I said, I think the business world is changing a little bit that even, you know, the the fast lane that the startup used to offer to a director or a VP or whatever. think that's even slowed down a little bit in today's pump the brakes world that we seem to be driving towards. So just you know, kind of a quick note on, on that one. I think just the last bullet here, from a startup perspective, if it sounds right for you or startup is in your wheelhouse. I think I've come across this quite a bit, and this happens in non-profits as well. But I feel like a lot of people that are working in the startup and or non-profit are really passionate about the work they. And that's not to say that you can't have passion about your place, about your job in the corporate world. Certainly you can, I think you just find it more frequently in the startup and nonprofit world than you do in the corporate structure. You know, and again, succeeding in a startup environment isn't always easy, right? So especially if you're with them since like day two, right?,you know, you're like, like they hire five people outta the gate and you're one of them. That can definitely be stressful all around. And, but you gotta be, you know, you gotta be passionate about it to kind of look past all the stress. So again, when you're when you're super early, you know, budgets are usually tight, right? Teams usually tend to be small. Again, there's only five, you know, five people. If they started out super small Multiple hats, you know, performing a range of tasks, things of that nature. And it's usually not for top dollar, right? Startups usually don't have a whole lot of money to throw around a hundred K at a marketing director or whatever, right? So it's, you know, it's usually all that stress and, you know, back break and hump break and work for not what you could be making in a corporate world, right? So just be mindful of that. Now while, you know, while money is important, it's, this is the only reason people choose to work for a co, you know, for a for a company or in a particular industry, right? So again, things, other things play roles, right? Employee engagement and you know, again, passion, things of that nature. Looking at the total package, I think we talked about that a couple weeks ago from a Yeah. Look at the total package perspective when we talked about salaries. I think when you're passionate about the work that you're doing or the mission that your company is pursuing, providing whatever terminology you wanna use, I think it's easier to put up with the other uncertainties of startup life, you know, that kind of thing. So you're seeing the big picture in that aspect. So if that sounds, you know, that sounds something that you're interested in, then you know, you're, that I think a startup is probably a better, you know, better fit for you. So, Kyle, do you have some about the col the corporate side of things?

Kyle: 22:55

I mean, Yeah a lot of people, or at least that I've met, you know, throughout getting a corporate, they're, you know, not necessarily that they just want to be a drone, but like the, you focus specifically on one task, you know, and you do that really well. salaries, know, That definitely

Pat: 23:15

it

Kyle: 23:15

goes to goes somewhere I mean, a little extra money doesn't hurt. But um,

Pat: 23:20

Heck no.

Kyle: 23:21

you know, I've seen that to where it's like, you know, Hey, I could do this and be passionate about it, or I could earn an extra 40 k, you know, kind of deal. So it's back and forth. I've definitely worked jobs where it's like I didn't get paid as well, maybe as I wanted to, but I was really passionate about what I was doing and I was like, it, you know, made me feel good and I didn't care about the extra money cuz I was like, this is really what I want to do. And then uh, definitely work jobs where I'm like, maybe I'm not doing everything that I want to, but I'm making more money. So that's cool too, you know, and you know, your life changes and stuff. Maybe you got something big going on where you don't. Wanna focus on millions of things at work. You just wanna go in and do your thing and then have a better work life balance. You know, that could be back and forth between the startup and the corporate too. You corporate, maybe you go in you do your nine to five and then you're out and you don't even, you know, Hey, I'll see you guys tomorrow and you just shut it off until the next day,

Pat: 24:22

You leave it at the desk. Yep.

Kyle: 24:24

Cuz the work's gonna be there,

Pat: 24:25

That's it. I have to tell myself that all the time. The work will be here, like like I ju I don't know. This is just the mindset I have and especially like when you're working on a new project, you just can't seem to put it down. Like you just wanna get to that next level. And you're like, All right, well, one more. And you can down. It's like, you know, like, like case in point, right? I'm building. Palo Alto firewalls, right? So, you know, Panorama, which is their overarching, you know, management tool. And then, you know, Palo Alto to, to Palo Alto firewalls. And I'm like, All right. And it's like, the problem I have is I start things late in the day, and then I have to finish them before I go to bed that night, or else that's gonna bug me. Like It's like I'm one of those people. So like, you know, and tech, technically I'm on a contract, so I technically don't get paid for any after hours work and, you know, that sort of thing. But I come down here and, you know, plug away after the kids go to bed. Barring my youngest one actually sleeps I come down here and do you know, do two or three hours outside of the, you know, regular nine to five or, you know, whatever. So, but that's just the way I'm geared. It's the way I'm wired. And Kyle, you've known me for, A long time. It's just who I am. It's just the way people are wired. So it just depends on, again you know, what your goals are how much you wanna throw into the hat and, you know, divulge yourself into your work. Right? Cause I do think, like you said, Kyle, I think corporate culture tends to be, A little more forgiving from the nine to five role, right? So the startups, you're kind of, Oh man, I gotta get this done. Like startups you're hitting, you know, deadlines are important and things of that nature. And not to say deadlines are important in the culture world, in the corporate world, but they are. But it's a little more lax in the corporate environment. You do your job nine to five, get your task done, A to Z and then go home. And whatever's left for tomorrow, it'll be left to tomorrow. Whatever's left to Monday, it'll be there Monday. It ain't go anywhere. So, if you like that structure of work life balance, I think that works well in your favor. So kind of case in point like, you know, when I was younger I would, I'd work all the time cause I just, you know, it was just me and the wife. We were like, we didn't have any kids. Like it was just us kind of poking away. She would come home and do teacher stuff and lessons for the next day or whatever. And then I would come down and study or, you know, keep plugging away from my, you know, job or whatever. So, it just depends. But now that we have kids, it's like, you know, you wanna spend time with your kids all you can before they, you know, go to bed. Cuz before you know it they're driving, you know, that kind of thing, So it's like, holy shit, you were just three now you're like 16. What, what happened? But I'm not quite there yet, but I'm sure that's coming. But yeah, I mean, you know, especially, you know, your kids spend their days at a babysitter at school and stuff. You have like a couple hours with'em at night after dinner and that's it. It's just like, holy shit, you know? But so work life balance is totally understandable there from that perspective of a better. Better balance, if you will. And like you said, you know, from a compensation perspective, right? You know, like startups are all about passion. You know, corporate is all about, you know, corporate typically has the means to provide a better salary, right? That's just a long and short of that, that, that's just the nature of the beast, right? That's, you know, it is what it is. But you know, there again, it's about priorities. The stage of life you're in, right? So, just you have to pick what's right for you and you know, who says you can't blend the two, You can work at a startup, and then when you get stressed to that and can't do no more, then you change over to a corporate, whatever, and we've all done it, so it's all good. I would probably say the closest environment I had to a startup was when I worked at a Evolve ip. They had some really good, they had good culture. It was fast paced. Man, we worked to the bone man. It was, we worked hard, we played hard, but it was back breaking work. Like at the time I was a field guy for their hosted voice. So I'd be traveling, you know, within like a 50 mile radius of the king of Pria area which is about an hour south of where Kyle and are at. So I was driving an hour each way a day to get down there. So again, that adds two hours to the trip. So now an eight hour day becomes a 10 hour day, so at least but, you know, we're young and didn't have any kids, not a whole lot of responsibility, just making sure you got paid and, you know, when the bills came in, you paid the bills. But But anywhere within a 50 mile radius we were responsible for going, installing, you know, these voice routers and switches and configuring switches and racking stack and all that. Making sure a phone comes up and registers and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, we were a national company at that point, so, You know, nobody puts a new phone system in the middle of the day, right. So I've did very little turn ups at the, in the middle of the day. Normally the time of the desk was configuring gear, you know, getting ready for whatever the deployment was for next week or whatever. But but then the turn up process too, you know, people plugging in actual phones, like if you, you're in ca like, you know, like I said, we were a national so, doing a, you know, if a company in California was, had to wait till six, seven o'clock their time, hell, that's nine, 10 o'clock here on the East coast. So, you know, I did more turn ups at my kitchen table than I did at my actual desk. So, you know, you bring it home with you cuz you have to, you know, that sort of thing. So, but yeah, then we played hard and they treated us good. But yeah, that was probably the closest one they had. We had a beer swap every Christmas. I think they did it twice a year in the winter. And then in the spring, then you brought a case of beer or 24 case of beer or whatever it is. And then you just, we just lined'em up on the table and you just went, you went beer by beer and just picked a bunch of beer and you had 24 different beers going home with you that it was a beer swap. that was cool. You know, and for a little bit there, we uh, They redid some of the building we were in. They took over more space. So like they had this huge conference room, they put an Xbox one in there on the wall, and we'd sit there and, you know, play games after hours and shit or the quarterly meetings we had, they had'em catered and beer and wine and all kinds of food and all kinds of crazy shit. Ping pong tables. We had ping pong competitions there for a little bit for a few years. So that was a very startup feel. And, you know, some of the other ones I've had were were more corporate. Right. You know, so, it's not good nor bad. They both had their advantages and disadvantages. Just depends on which one you liked better and you know, which one fits your you know, fits your lifestyle the time. Right. So, but they're not, I don't think they're exclusive. Right. Startups and corp aren't mutually exclusive. Right. You can have qualities in both of them. Right. So it's not like it's oh my God, gotta have one or the other. You know, and I think you've seen this trend over the last couple of years. We've sort of touched on it before, but I think many of these corporations, stiff types are, they're starting to create teams like dedicated to like innovation and people, you know, people departments and onboarding and making it fun. And so it's a place you want to stay or, you know, instead of, Okay, I'm gonna do my two and a half years here and go chase somewhere else. You know, that kind of thing. So, but I think they are putting their best foot forward to respond more quickly to change, you know, things of that nature. So it just depends on what you're interested in. Anything on that kind from a corporate perspective.

Kyle: 31:32

Yeah, I would definitely say that. Probably the pandemic slash work from home forced a little bit of a shift in, into that, you know, cuz are doing their nine to five from home, but also instead of, you know, going in and they had a little more freedom and like that and just, you know, just a little tiny culture shift. I don't wanna say it made it more startupy, but it made it less corporate

Pat: 32:02

Right,

Kyle: 32:02

so that was an interesting shake up, you know, because you and I have been doing this for a while and it was pretty much like, this is how things are and then that happened and it's like, oh, well

Pat: 32:13

No, it's not

Kyle: 32:14

right? It doesn't have to be right. Like, so now it's, so I think that kind of made some. Some little different, like some corporate things are still what you remember them being, and some of the other ones are a little more, I don't wanna say hip, I don't have a better word for it, but you know what I mean, Like, it's just it's a little different. It's a little just different kind of culture that's, I guess, blended. Yeah.

Pat: 32:41

yeah, no that's a good point. I think I think the startup is, you know, in, in most cases, I wanna say the startup, you know, it's, wants to scale and develop quickly, right? We kind of talked about what it is, right? So that, that's the goal, right? So, I mean, look at all the, look at all the big tech stuff and that, that tech boom that we had a few years ago, like stuff like, you know, Instagram came out of that, LinkedIn came out of that. You know, now the world is run by TikTok that came out of that. Like, there was this massive boom of just startups. And now like, you know, Slack was another one, right? So technically, I think Google had the original idea there years ago. They had a product called Google Wave. That was when you or I were in college,

Kyle: 33:22

Oh,

Pat: 33:23

It was like early two thousands. They had Google Wave. It was basically a slack before Slack. Slack So it was like a collaboration tool and I really liked it. And then all of a sudden just one day it went away and I was like, Where did it go? This was awesome. You know, that kind of thing. But you had so much innovation come outta there, and they were all, they're all startups, right? So, you know, and now they're all, you know, typically a startup you grow like crazy and, you know, just hope to be bought one day. I, that's a blank statement. I shouldn't say all of them hope to be bought, but you know, if you have a product and Microsoft comes calling, you've done something, right? You know, that kinda thing. You know, don't beat yourself up over it at night, you know? But yeah, typically startups are, you know, young, innovative, collaborative, you know, again, focused on growth. And again, the other side of that, corporations are established, slow moving, hierarchical and focus on productivity that. What it is, There're just two different sides of a coin. So, you know, I don't, maybe some characteristics of each, right? I think that's a good kind of thing. And some of these may sound redundant, but I think you know, I think some of the corporate entities, you know, they focus on brand recognition, right? So, you know, you know, some of them have some superb marketing folks that you just know who they are by their logo, right? So that's all about a brand, right? So, brand is very important to them. They've, you know, they've taken years to refine their craft and get it just right, you know, that kind of thing. And it's like, all right, well, If you work for a really good brand, you often want to tell people that you work for a really good brand, right? So in the world of big tech, right? And we're gonna keep it into the tech world. We'll give a couple examples outside of Tech world too, but in the, for the sake of this podcast and this conversation, right? You know, if you work for Facebook, you're going to tell people you work for Facebook, right? or if you work for Google or some of the up and coming ones now, CrowdStrike and you know, things of that. Splunk is another one. You know, things of that nature. You're going to tell them that you work for said company. So they really hang their heads on having a good brand, and they're counting on their people to then spread that brand because, They're one of the biggest companies in the world. Right. That's what, its just what it is, you know? And yeah, but I have to say, like some of these people that, that are hired at these marketing firms to, to come up with a logo or a catchphrase for some of these companies, they're brilliant, Absolutely brilliant. Like what? Go up to somebody to show them the Nike symbol, the swoosh. And I guarantee 10 outta 10 people will know that's Nike. That's been their logo for freaking ages. Like, it's just insane to me, like how some companies just have such lasting power with their marketing or with their branding. It's just insanity to me. You know, Coca-Cola's another one like, geez, that's been around for a hundred years, whatever. But

Kyle: 36:27

If you're driving down the street and you see a, you know, yellow m flying in the sky, the gold arches, right. You're like, You know exactly what you're

Pat: 36:35

That's it. Going to gimme some nuggets.

Kyle: 36:38

right? that 20 piece

Pat: 36:41

That's right. Got that hidden menu joint look out but yeah, so stuff like that and I think some of the up and comers are really gonna do well with that, you know, CrowdStrike being one of'em and you know, now into the cloud and some of these security things in the cloud and you know, to a degree, you know, Tesla, right? With with Elon, right? And SpaceX and like, like how cool would it be to work for SpaceX and be like, Yo, I work for SpaceX. You know, kinda thing. Like, that's some cool shit But anyway yeah, so I, I think companies hang their hats on that brand recognition. So, if you like that sort of pull that you have working for Company X, I think the corporate is probably a better fit for you.

Kyle: 37:22

It's established. It's known. It's recognizable.

Pat: 37:25

correct. Correct. And you know, one thing we didn't talk about too much yet is I think communication at these large corporations, there tends to be less transparency in a larger corporation when it comes to sharing info, sharing knowledge you know, both within, in your own internal employee structure and with the outside world. Usually there's a, you know, again, there's a marketing department, you know, basically fine tooth Coleman, every press release that that goes out that, that kind of thing. So you just, you know, be careful with that as far as communication goes. And typically the other thing I've seen with corporate versus startups is they're larger corporations or organizations are more afraid to take risks. Usually in bigger companies they have departments that are, you know, risk analysis and they have experts in there that help with that decision making, you know, type of deal. There's a lot of people involved in decisions whether that's to buy another company or sell to a, you know, sell to a bigger, you know, company and that sort of thing. There's a lot of people that make those decisions. And use of that decision process is quite drawn out and long and you know, in some instances, you know Painful. And, but it's also logical at the same time, right? So if you're gonna sell your company, you gotta think of, you know, you should think of now that everybody does, you should go of, you know, what's it gonna do to people downstream from me, right? So normally when there is a buyout, or when your company gets bought by a bigger company, usually a lot of people are made redundant. So you're gonna think about that from a, you know, from a corporate perspective and, okay, am I gonna be made redundant or am I gonna, you know, am I gonna be able to stay around because X company that, you know, that's buying us doesn't have a person that, you know, what I do, You know, that kind of thing. You know, so, so that's, you know, things you gotta think of there. You know, but typically you wanna be in a company that's buying other c. That's typically the win. That's, you know, that's the win-win situation for you. Right. That's just generally how it is. I have never been a part of a company that has been bought, so I'm thankful for that. I've always been in a company that's buying which is good. So I don't have a whole lot of experience with, you know, being made redundant and kind of looking over my shoulder, but it does, it happens quite a bit and quite often. So, you know, just be kind of careful with that. But overall, as an overall arching theme in the comparison of this conversation, your corporate job has more job safety and stability than the startup does. That's just generally the rule of thumb. I think. You know, you know, on the other hand with the going back to the communication, right? I think a startup Communication is a bit more open. It's a bit more transparent. I think it's short and simple. It's not as maybe long winded as if you were in a corporate, you know, environment. Feedback is another one. I think feedback is a little more well accepted in a startup environment than it is in in a corporate you know, setting, if you will. You know, it's it's just, again, I don't wanna say they're oil and water, but they definitely have their pros and cons. And just depending on how your brain operates is what you're gonna be more more comfortable in. I don't know, Kyle, do you think in a startup environment you have to be a little more self starting as well? I think,

Kyle: 40:35

probably a little more you know, kind of initiative to, to do and figure out the needs and kind of jump in and, you know, I guess read the situation or kind of read what's going on a little bit more as opposed. You know, the corporate thing where you just, you know, this is, these are my tasks, this is my narrow focus kind of deal. Like that, and you just kind of stick, stick to that and you know,

Pat: 41:05

Yeah, I feel like if you're at a startup and you're waiting for somebody to come and tell you what to do and, you know, kind of be led by the nose I don't think that's gonna happen. I think the start, you have a little more freedom into, you know, making your own decisions, but then at the same time, if that goes belly up or if that flops, you gotta be ready to, you know, take advantage of that. Or I should say, you've gotta be ready to take ownership of that and say, Hey, yeah, that, that's my bad. You know, we'll redefine and, you know, come back at it next time with whatever decision, you know, that kind of thing. So, yeah. So those are just a couple of things. I dunno, Kyle, do you think do you think working in different verticals or industries also plays a role into that? I think it does. I think there's a couple off the top of my head that are really contrast and some of them really get a bad rap you know, from the folks that have been in it. But, you know, it is what it is. But I guess I'll start with you cause you've kind of spent your career in the education sector.

Kyle: 41:59

Right. Yeah. It's it was pretty startup eish would probably be the best thing that I could say. We're a real small shop. There are a lot of people wearing different hats. Kind of deal. And as, as we grew it, it separated out. So that was pretty interesting. A lot of collaboration, thinking real quick on your feet. Well the horror story didn't come out, but you know, when we had the switch die and it was just like everybody from whatever department, if you had hands, you know, like take the initiative, get in there, get it fixed, kind of deal like that where, you know, in something a bit more corporate, it'd be like no, that's a network switch. Only the network guys have the ability to touch the net. You know, like, so yeah, it's just going small. Like I said, startup e it was more fun Haha. Times, you know, and now it's it's a little different. It's a little more structured, a little more You know, people kinda stay in their lane, I guess as it, you know, is and it's, they've both been good different times of life, different things, try to help see what's up. And like you said, you know, you've kind of done more corporate besides your the startup e ish one that you were doing.

Pat: 43:13

Yeah. I like both aspects of it. I think the smaller the company, which tends to be a, you know, tends to lend itself to being a startup. I think there's. it's it's not as, again, it's not as rigid. You kind of have that freedom, but then at the end of the day, you're like, I mean, you're sort of looking for a bump. Like there's really nowhere to go. Because they are so small. So that kind of, depending on how quickly you want to climb the ladder, that can be a turnoff, right? That kind of thing. But I think in the corporate world it you know, there's more room cuz there's, it's a bigger playing field, you know, that sort of thing. Not to say that there isn't politics in both worlds, cuz there certainly are. But I think the corporate world helps with just having more room more room to go. You know, rather than a five person startup company. There's only, you know, you can only go so far

Kyle: 44:06

It's only so many positions.

Pat: 44:08

Right. You know, that sort of thing. But I think in both world, and, you know, education is an interesting one. But I think this goes for all the environments. And cuz it, and tech is just such an integral part of business today. I still see places that just treat it as a cost center and in its truest sense of the word, it is, right? It costs money to run, but so does every other department. And so you almost have to look at it like, and maybe this is a biased view cuz that's the field we're playing on. But you know, it almost has to be like, it is sort of ahead of the business at least a little bit. So then when the business grows it and absorb. That growth and stay ahead of the measuring stick just a little bit. Cuz I've been at places where it is playing catch up and it is the worst experience that I've been in cuz it's just nothing. But you're drinker from a fire hose all day long and it's normally bandaids on top of bandaids. On top of bandaids, and then something breaks and then the CEO goes, Why isn't this fixed? Well, remember when I said a couple? Yeah. Remember when I said at the beginning of the podcast, there's always enough, there's never enough real money to do it once, or I should say Right. There's always enough money to do it twice. Yeah. That's the phrase like, you know, they want to give you just enough money to keep the lights on, but there's no like real, no real innovation or no real. They don't know what it can do for them from a business perspective because they either, they don't want to, and I'm not saying they have to understand nuts and bolts. They're not paid to do that. Right. That they're way above that. But at least like, okay, you have a business problem. What tools are out there that can solve your business problem? And if it's a couple hundred grand for whatever it is, then you talk about it at that time. Is it gonna be worth it in the long run? Right. But you know, don't just, you know, don't just feed it just because it's a cost center and you have to have, it's like a necessary evil. You're never gonna get anything out of that. You're always gonna be chasing, you're, something's always gonna be broke. And then you just chop through people cuz people see. all the time. It's just like, there's just I've worked for places like that. Like they just give you enough to get by. There's no planning, there's no growth, there's no scalability, there's no strategy going forward. It's always, Oh, well, oh, we gotta buy licenses. Okay, well that box is literally 10 years old. How about buying a new box for all the licenses that you could have? You know, if that box was end of life three years ago now you bought three one year licenses that are the price of a new box like You know what I mean? And from a technical perspective, it's so frustrating to work in that environment cuz you're just, like I said, you're just constantly fighting fires and you know, and I get, budgets are important and all this other kind of stuff, but you almost have to show the value of what this is gonna bring. And you have to do it in the long game. Right. You have to do it in a five year plan, you know? Five, seven year plan, I, you don't go 10 in the IT role cuz things change that often. But, you know, but you'd give'em, say, Hey look, you know, you move, you know, the discussion that's been sort of at the top of people's game in the last couple years is moving to the cloud, right? So it, which, you know, is it cheaper? Is it cheaper to move to the cloud? Probably not. People are finding that out now. It's not. But the longer you're in the cloud, the cheaper it gets. Like it's it's definitely a long game. It's not a, Oh my God, I gotta put this up here right now. Well, yeah, you're gonna spin servers up and you're gonna get that bill and you're gonna, Holy Christ, that's not good. We're not paying that now. It's just like, yeah. But the longer this goes, the easier and the more flexible your stuff gets. And again, you have to have a long term plan. If you're just shooting from the hip from just to put a yearly budget together, you're never gonna hit any sort of mark ever. Ever. So that's just my 2 cents. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. No But no, I've been in places like that just, they're corporate. They, yeah. They have it as a cost center. They give it just enough money, bare bones money to keep it running and get people paid. But then those peop those people have to support that junk. And it, it's costing them more in the long run because now you have downtime that is, you know, downtime is money, right? So you might as well add that tack, that money, attack, that downtime, whatever that dollar amount is for your down, being down for six hours to eight hours, you know, 24 hours. Tack that on, that's what you're paying. Like, you know, I've been to places where they wanna put the cheap stuff in and it's like, okay, well you can throw this watch card in there for 500 bucks, but you can do an ASA for. 1300 or 1500, whatever it was, those were the price at the time. I don't know what they are now, but you know, yes, it's more expensive up front, but that WatchGuard is breaking every other month and you're paying me two 50 or whatever it is to, you know, fix said WatchGuard. So if you, and then that asa you're paying me twice a year maybe to upgrade code on it. That's it. So if you look at it from a year perspective, which one's costing you it, you know, more in the year, The watch guard is, you know what I mean? So like, you know, but people, they just can't, people just see dollar amounts, what's in front of them. Now most of them have sticker shock and they wanna go with the cheapest thing. So it's like, you know, you find that everywhere. Regardless of place, startup or corporation, the tighter the budget, the more you have to show the value in what you're asking for. That's the bottom line. So plan, that's fine. That is my shtick. You have to plan, You have to show your worth. Say, Okay, look, if we do this now, we're gonna save this by not doing this down the road. You know what I mean? Not doing, you know, if we do this now, this one task now we're not gonna do, we're not gonna do these 10 tasks down the road, saving us X amount of cash. And then they usually go, Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And if they do that nine times outta 10, they're gonna say, Yeah, go. Go for it. We're gonna put the money up for it. And if they don't, fine. But then at least you presented your argument and they said no. And then when something breaks or whatever, then you can say, Look, this was on last year's budget. They got chopped from the budget for whatever reason, and they could look at themselves. So So, but yeah, you find that everywhere budgets are so important, especially now with, you know, the cost of things and everything, all this other kind of crazy stuff. People are, you know, corporations are looking at their money even, you know, even closer. So the more value you can provide and whatever you're pitching sales pitch wise, you know, the better your chances are. So, but I feel like education has that budget problem, at least from my wife's perspective. Like, she, like she sees a little bit of it. I mean, she's not an it, but from a, from an end user perspective, she's a teacher, right. You know, they all got Chromebooks and you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's like they run super lean, tight ships and you know, they have budgets for what they're given and that's it, you know, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And it's like you don't really have any kind of flow or room there to wiggle because you just don't have the means. So I, but I feel like education is that corner case where there's a lot of penny pension going on and you have to fit the mold instead of the mold fitting you. You know, But then on the other end, you know, something in a tech field, right? That they tend to be a little more money spendy because that's an investment into their business, right? So the more they can innovate, the more money it takes, and the more they can innovate, it's gonna help'em sell the product. You know? So there's two, you know, two far end extremes, if you will, you know, that kind of thing, or, you know, I don't know. Just, those are the two that I can think of off the top of my head of, you know, the two polar opposites as far as industries go. I don't know if you, you have any more on that or if you've, you, I know you're in education, but I don't know if you have any friends that are, you know, in other veins that have told you horror stories or.

Kyle: 52:20

The joke that I had always kind of heard is like, well, what do we pay it for?

Pat: 52:26

All

Kyle: 52:26

Cuz if everything works too smoothly, then why are we employing all these people, you know? And. Things are going sideways, What do we pay it for? Because they're obviously not doing it.

Pat: 52:40

always broke, right? Yep. Yep. That is a good one.

Kyle: 52:46

Yeah.

Pat: 52:46

That is a good one.

Kyle: 52:48

So it's like, you know, how much visibility or how much do you wanna be seen or stuff? Cuz I'm mean like, I mean, really this stuff should just kinda work and nobody should really even notice, you know? And like, Oh, well, servers are running flawlessly and our network is super fast. And you know,

Pat: 53:09

This network would be perfect if it wasn't for these users.

Kyle: 53:12

Right.

Pat: 53:15

Says the jaded network guy.

Kyle: 53:18

right.

Pat: 53:18

Anyway,

Kyle: 53:20

So

Pat: 53:21

but alright, on, on that note, on that lovely note. I think we're gonna get outta here. Kyle, you got any parting thoughts?

Kyle: 53:29

Yeah, Try'em both. Do a little searching, see what works for you. You know, it's not one size fits all. Life changes, you know? So can your

Pat: 53:41

Prior priorities change. Sure

Kyle: 53:43

Yep.

Pat: 53:44

happens all the time, So. Alright buddy, we're gonna get outta here. This was a little longer one today. I was surprised at that. All right. Anyway we're gonna get outta here. Thanks again for joining this week on the, New episode, Breaking Down to Bites. Make sure you visit our website, breakingbytespod.io where you can subscribe to the show, like I mentioned iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Podcasts or just a plane, RSS feed that's up there too. So you never miss a show. Throw us a rating on iTunes. That would be awesome. If you simply tell a friend about us, that would be double. Awesome. Word of mouth is just as good these days. I think. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Discord server is out there in the show notes. LinkedIn we're on LinkedIn as of maybe a month and a half, two months ago now. So that's doing really well. Discord like I mentioned, survey is out there for us for any kind of feedback you guys or gals want to give us that would be awesome. I guess I can mention this now. We are growing to a third person. Oh my, oh God. No. So if you have been following the show we had our good friend Alex, on a. Weeks ago talking about getting that big job at Big Tech that he works for Disney streaming. He is joining us as a third co-host to this podcast. So, bringing a lot of insight. He's a really sharp dude, a good friend of mine for years and years. So yeah, he'll be joining us in the next few weeks. Hopefully next episode. We'll have to get down schedules and whatnot. He's on the West Coast and we're here on the East Coast, so the timing is a little bumpy, but we'll get it rocking and rolling. Get him in here as a third co-host and another voice. And it's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be a great time. Really looking forward to having him come on and chat with us. So he was a really good episode. So if you haven't listened to that episode, you want a taste of what Alex is gonna be like. Go check that one out. Couple weeks back. So, land the job at Big Tech. Yeah, he'll be with us in the next couple of weeks, so he'll be putting his stamp on this show. It's gonna be a good stamp. So we need all the help we can get here, right? Kyle, you and I,

Kyle: 55:41

Yeah, definitely

Pat: 55:43

get some smart people in the room and move forward. No So everybody, that's it. And we'll see everybody next week.

Kyle: 55:52

All right, so long.