Top Skills of 2023

A new debut! This week we welcome Alex as a 3rd host to the show! This week we’re talking about the top skills to have for 2023. What skills will make you stand out? Got other skills we didn’t cover? Let us know!

Network Chuck’s Docker Container Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGz9DS-aIeY

Cisco’s blog on Github
https://blogs.cisco.com/learning/git-for-network-engineers-series-the-basics-part-1

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Transcript

Pat: 0:30

Hey everybody. Welcome back to this week's edition of Breaking Down the Bites. I'm your host Pat. You can find me on Twitter at@layer8packet. That's the number eight. Kyle's with me as always. He is on Twitter as well at@Danath256. And you can find the show on Twitter@breakinbytespod. So we're pretty active on Twitter, so come say hello and all of our socials will be in the show notes for this week, like they are every week. So if you have a platform or choice to come follow us and also if you haven't already, you can subscribe on your platform of choice whether that's iTunes or Spotify or Google Podcasts. Whichever one you like, we are on all of them. So go head over to your favorite one and subscribe. So you get the new show every week. So it's a big week for us. Kyle.

Kyle: 1:21

definitely

Pat: 1:22

you guys, y'all can't see it, but there's new blood in the room. We're looking at each other right now. There is new blood in the room. There's an extra seat at the table. That's right. We spoke about it last week a little bit that we have a third co-host joining the show from now until we ride this thing into the ground. Right. So, which we hope is a long time. So, he was on an episode a couple months back, I mean a couple weeks at the beginning of September I think he was on the show and he is our good buddy. Alex. What's up man? How you doing? Welcome.

Alex: 1:56

Thank you. Yeah, I had so much fun the first time that rather than just begging to be on the show every other week, I decided to become a cohost. So here I

Pat: 2:05

right. He strong armed his way in and we, he made the deal so sweet that we couldn't say no. So here we are,

Alex: 2:14

and don't worry about the social media accounts. I won't create a new one. I'll just, I'll stay on the shows social media

Pat: 2:21

That's right. Yeah. You're not a big social media guy. He's not a big social

Alex: 2:25

I'm not. No. So

Pat: 2:27

which I, some days I think is better. Honestly, I wish I could quit it myself.

Alex: 2:33

Yeah. And you don't want to end up with six co-hosts, then your intros two minutes long cuz your name and everybody's Twitter and Instagram and Facebook if anyone still uses that.

Pat: 2:43

That's right. So if you wanna get ahold of Alex, just hit us up on Twitter@breakinbytespod.. Let's just keep it easy, keep it simple. The message will get to him. So it's all good. So now, man, we're excited to have you. This is great. We think you're a good addition. Got a lot of experience in your belt there. So, glad to have you on the show and right outta the gate, man, this is your topic. You brought this to us and you were like, Let's do this. And we're like, This is awesome. Rock and roll. So this is the kind of knowledge we need on this show. Kyle and I, were just kind of, hanging out every thursday night, just kind of hanging out, talking to each other. But this is the kind of knowledge this shows needs to get to the next level. So it's all good. Now this week we were talking. We sort of talked about a lot of these different things in various shows over the LA over the last year or so that we've been a show, but we've never actually like, put them all together in a single show. So, this week we are talking about the most in demand tech skills of 2023, because we all know it is late October, 2022 is in the very tail end. So we're looking ahead to 2023 to see what kind of skills are out there for you, young fledgling it folk that are looking to break in. So, take it from us. Now how much you take from us is a different story. So, this is a good topic. So, I don't know, Alex, do you have something to set up for that or I know you talked to a bunch of people and kind of got some vibes from people. So why don't you kind of lead that.

Alex: 4:10

Sure. The reason that the topic was kind of fresh in my mind is I had been doing quite a bit of interviewing recently, so it's a question that I. Really had to ask myself, what am I looking for? So some of these things that we'll talk about are things that I actively look for, but I know my opinion isn't the only one that matters. So I did reach out to quite a few people people I used to work with, all technical managers and technical leaders in some of the biggest companies in tech. So, I got responses to that exact question, what are you looking for in 2023? What are the skills you want? And I got feedback from a few guys at Meta some people from aws, a guy from Netflix my own company, Disney Streaming, and a few other smaller companies. So I did get a collection of about a dozen different technical managers to get their thoughts. And I was surprised by a lot of the overlaps. And so that's good. So I feel these are the ones that we should talk about, and I think we came up with. Six or seven, that of the 12 or 13 people that I talked to, at least four or five of'em mentioned, and there was one or two that was mentioned, I think by every single person. And we'll definitely cover those. So that's where the topic came from and hopefully some people take something out of this.

Pat: 5:27

Nice. Yep. I agree. Alex, you said I think everyone that you talked to mentioned this first one. It, there's no mystery to this one, as to why, but I think in the the Covid age and rushing people home, and now everyone, some people transferring home, work from home permanently, such as myself, like, I haven't had an office job in, going on two years now. So, But the one everyone mentioned is communication skills, right? So that's not even, that's not even touching technical skill. It's literally just knowing how to talk to people. Soft skills, public speaking, presenting a, PowerPoint or talking over a Zoom, that sort of thing that's gonna be huge over, I mean, it's huge in the last two years, but it's going to, even now that people see, or companies see that it actually can work, I think it's gonna be even larger going forward.

Alex: 6:12

Yeah absolutely. And if they didn't say com, say communications outright, they said something that kind of goes in the same vein. And you touched on it too. So presentation skills, everyone's doing zooms or the equivalent today. And I think presentations are becoming more common cuz you just can't just walk to a whiteboard. So, you're grouping together 15 people at times and doing a presentation. So you gotta have, make sure you have your a game when it comes to PowerPoint and things like that. And I think you need to be able to keep them engaged a little bit better than you used to. And I think that is something that you could get away with if you weren't great at it four years ago when you're in an office. Cuz if you're an introvert, I think you're just more comfortable. If you're three feet away from somebody, you could be a little bit more informal. But right now with the, with everyone work remote, I think it's a necessity. You have to be able to keep people's interest more than five minutes. And as of right now, it's a skill set that people aren't putting on their resume cuz it might be hard to quantify. So I think your interview is probably that one opportunity you have to make sure that they're aware, that hey, you can speak clearly, you can articulate, and yeah, you can hold their attention for more than 30 seconds. And it's a skill you need to have. It's tough not to have it.

Pat: 7:41

Yeah, I agree. I think it's some of the world we live in. We're just such a quick society now that like, we're like, a bunch of squirrels on crack. She's like, Oh, what's over there? Shiny object, all that kind of thing. So, No, I agree. Kyle you're, I won't say relatively new at your job. You, you're kind of settled in now, but you had a interview more recent than I did, but, was that some of that on there as far as like they were kind of logging you for okay, can this guy, speak clearly and get his point across and that sort of thing?

Kyle: 8:09

yeah, definitely. It was the, an interview team kind of deal like that. So it was the questions being able to explain my answers in a way that, sounded good to everyone. kind of be able to get my point across. And it was supposed to actually be in person but it happened to be a snow day for the univers. So I ended up, they were just kind like, We're gonna do it on Zoom. We don't want to change anything. So I was like, that was even more stressful. Cause now it's like instead of being there, gotta make sure it's like,

Pat: 8:39

It's a different preparation. Right,

Kyle: 8:41

clothing hanging in the background or something, cause it was still

Pat: 8:45

Kyle was in shorts, but he had a suit. He had a certain tie on up top. You only have to dress from the waist up, you know that

Kyle: 8:50

Right, Right. But yet that was definitely a big part. And especially now that I'm back in an office setting talking, you got the water cooler chat and stuff like that,

Pat: 9:00

Yep.

Kyle: 9:01

so

Alex: 9:02

Oh, you're actually back in the office. I didn't realize that.

Kyle: 9:05

Yeah.

Alex: 9:06

And I assume you, Pat you're still home.

Pat: 9:08

I am home. All day, every day. Out, with the exception of if there's a big meeting somewhere. a Little sidetrack, but we just had a couple C level people change at my place. So, we now report to a new C level person. So he wanted to bring everybody together and, kind of go over a plan and he did a big presentation, PowerPoint, that kind of thing. So for meetings like that when it's like an all hands on deck sort of thing, meeting people and whatnot so that, there I'll go or just maybe, I don't know, maybe handful times a month, I'll just go to an office just to get out, and now that the wife and kids are back, wife's back at work now off of maternity leave and the kids are at the babysitter, so it's literally just me in the house all day long. So I wanna look at four different walls I'll just pack up for today and go into an office that's close or whatever, but it's very infrequent. I would probably say I, I'm maybe in an office maybe twice a month if that. But I'm usually here at home in the dungeon, working away in the basement. So, But no I'm interested to see where the work from home game goes in the next two to three years. Cause I know a couple companies already coming, or like, like, cuz I get hit up all day long from head hunters and say, Hey, we have this job. And I love the head hunters, right? So like, I'm in Pennsylvania and they're like, Oh, there's a job in Ohio onsite day one. And I'm like, I'm not moving to Ohio. Like, at least do a little bit of research to be like, this guy's in pa he's not gonna, like, I can't float him a job in Kansas for on site. Like, it just doesn't work that way, So, but I get I get head hunters all day long and the. Very few of them now are remote. It says onsite day one. So I'm curious to see what if this work from home trend continues? And I don't know if that's like a, the business doesn't trust their people working from home or if it truly is, hey, trust your people, you can work from anywhere sort of thing. I think the Covid thing, everybody was like, Oh yeah, go home and it worked. But I think some of that may be wearing off. I don't know what you guys take is on that, but from what I'm seeing, some of that may be wearing off. And the business wants you in a brick and mortar building.

Alex: 11:12

Yeah, more so than they did. Certainly a year ago, I could say the last two people that we hired at Disney streaming were remote, and talking to the people that. I interview you about this question. It seems like hybrid is the worst case scenario. I hadn't talked to anyone that said that they're going full time in the office and maybe we'll do this same question and leading up to 20, 24 and Q, communication will be down the list and maybe only half of'em will say it.

Pat: 11:42

That's right.

Alex: 11:44

So everyone's back in the office. So now number one skill is personal hygiene or something like that, as opposed communication skills.

Pat: 11:52

Brushing the old pearly whites. Get it

Alex: 11:55

They've come to realize that people have forgotten hygiene techniques in the last three years.

Pat: 12:00

That's right. No, that's an interesting thing. Yeah. Any sort of communication, Right. So, soft skills, public speaking, presenting soft skills particularly. Right. And I think Alex, you and I sort of saw some of this when we were a evolve IP that, they were hiring some of the service desk folks or the, help desk, tier one, whatever, no you wanna use, but they weren't hiring. People that had technical skill, they hired a lot of people that just, knew how to talk to people. And that was their motto saying, Hey, I can teach'em the technical stuff. I can't teach'em not to be an A-hole. That kind of thing. So like, and that frustrate, at least at that point in time in my career, that frustrated guys like me because now we were getting kicked up all these easy tickets like that were coming our way because it's like, well, they didn't know the technical side. And it's like, so there was a little bit of a rub there, but now sort of looking back and, 20,000 foot view I get where they were coming from for sure.

Alex: 12:55

Yep. Yep. I get it. And like you said when you, I think when people hear you need communication skills, they don't know what exactly that means. It's almost like a cliche at this point, but you mentioned it, it's more than just being able to talk to people. I mean, that's part of it, but presentation skills like you mentioned. And I think Kyle's even touching on this a little bit too. Knowing your audience is big. And that's something that actually one of the guys I interviewed actually use that term, knowing your audience. So that's something that, and I know engineers that are guilty of this for sure, they will speak to anyone like they're a senior engineer and it just doesn't work. So I, I know people that are really good at finding that right balance, being able to, you. Know their audience and then be able to articulate what they're trying to say at that level. And it can, it won't come off as being it won't go over your head, but it also won't be like they're patronizing you, which I think is sometimes that's tough to do. So, yeah. And we could write a whole book and do three chats just based on communication, but I guess we'll go to the second skillset. So what do we wanna talk about next?

Pat: 14:10

The second one here, down the line which I think is huge. Huge. And like I said, we, I, we've talked about bits and pieces of these before, just never all of'em in one coherent episode. But this is something I struggle with. Not be, not because I don't want to learn it, but I think it's a timing thing for me. Like I just have so many other things going on in my day to day that I just never quite can get my head wrapped around, and I don't use it enough. But automation is absolutely huge. I think so, and when I say automation, I mean things like, a little bit of scripting, coding, and the first one that comes to mind that's really popular in this space is Python, right? Python language. And then the f. That is really popular in our space too, is Ansible, Right. Playbooks and things of that nature. There's a good book out there, it's called Automate the Boring Stuff, right? That kind of thing. And basically those repetitive tasks, right? The, anything from, network guys to sell for guys to, just day to day just stuff that you have to do that is just super boring but it's like time consuming. That's the part that really sucks cuz the boring stuff is the time consuming stuff. So you wanna try to automate that as much as you can by writing, python scripts and things of that nature. So, And Network guys sitting on this, in this podcast. I think we're the last ones to sort of come to the automation party and I don't know if that's good or bad, but I can see the use for it. I, again, I'm not great at it. If you gimme a Python script that's written, I can tell you what it's doing, but put a blank paper in front of me and be like, Write a script. I need you to do this. I'm like you might as well be Greek. That kind of thing. So, but I think going forward, automation is huge.

Alex: 15:41

Yeah, we touched on this when I was on the show last month and maybe the reason that this is so high on the list is because of the companies that I spoke to. Cause I think the size of your company and the size of their environment is really gonna dictate how important automation is. So I've talked to companies like Meta, Disney, streaming, Netflix, and at that level, automation is so important cuz like we mentioned, if you're gonna change. An NTP server across a couple thousand devices. That's not something you just log into. If you are at a smaller shop and you have a single data center and you know you work on 30 devices every single day, maybe that's not the end of the world and you don't need to be an expert at it. But I think you're going to end up limiting talking about network engineering, you're end up limiting your ability to work for these type of companies if you don't start learning this stuff because it's so important to a big company.

Pat: 16:44

Yep.

Alex: 16:45

certainly at Disney streaming and a PlayStation where I was at before, we're really starting to blur the lines and we're kind of focusing on network engineering right now since that's all what we've done. But the classic network engineering at these big companies is kind of dying and I know that's what people are afraid of and. I think it's kind of like i p V six where some people are just trying to wait it out as long as possible, until they can't get a job. Unless they know it. And I think that's, And right now at this point I'd say you're probably better off learning how to script Python than IPV six at this point. But you're gonna have to for these bigger companies and yeah, that's something that I certainly learned in my last two companies and I hope people are getting on that bandwagon cuz it certainly is important.

Kyle: 17:34

that's been a fun path for me to try and digest and get all the syntax and whatnot from Python into my brain,

Alex: 17:43

Yeah. Do you have much opportunity to actually even use it at your job right now? Or is it just one of those things where you have to do it completely on your own?

Kyle: 17:53

Pretty much completely on my own. I mean, we might have a use for it. Most of the guys that work with us do power shell for pretty much everything, so they'll be like, Oh, you just do it through Power Shell. And I'm like, Well, I don't really know power shell either. So

Pat: 18:07

For sure.

Alex: 18:08

So how about you, Pat, are you doing anything yet?

Pat: 18:10

No, nothing currently with automation. I've, I dabbled in the past with a couple of Python scripts for various things, and I at one point I even bought the Cisco. Cert book, the official cert guide, and I started thumbing my way through that and highlighting, things. But it's been on the shelf for a while and not a whole lot of automation at my place. Only because in my new role I'm sort of on the architecture side, which has a lot of project involved, and it's not so much day to day things. So I think you use the automation stuff more on the day-to-day side of things when you're in fires and, preventative sort of thing instead of on the architecture side where you're, moving the ball forward. But automation is something I have to get better at and, kind of learning to, to get there. But like I said I'm dangerous enough with Python to, Be okay. But it's not, it's by no means am I a pro or, or anything like that, but it's yeah, it's a work in progress and there's always something to learn. So I, I look at it that way.

Alex: 19:13

All right, sounds good.

Pat: 19:16

Kyle, you doing the automation stuff at your gig?

Kyle: 19:19

Just kind of trying to learn Python by itself. I was gonna try and putts around with Ansible the other day cause I had to do well I was talking about it SSH in those like 250 different UPS around campus kind of deal like that to update the um, SMTP or S and M P V3 credentials.

Pat: 19:44

yep.

Kyle: 19:45

And I was like, How do I do this so I don't have to actually do it 250 times?

Alex: 19:51

Yep.

Pat: 19:52

Yeah.

Alex: 19:53

You only have to get it to work once, and then it's gonna save you a whole bunch of time later on.

Kyle: 19:58

Right. So yeah, finally figured it out after, smashing my face into the keyboard for a couple. Gotta working

Alex: 20:09

All right. Yeah, so moral the story. Yeah. Learn how to code and if you have to pick anything, especially if you're network engineering, I would look at Python for sure,

Pat: 20:19

This just popped into my head. I would, I took this course probably before Covid now but if you look on Udemy, David Bombal's course for Python for network engineers, so he basically, it's Python and it's specifically for network engineers and use cases and things of that nature. So it, it breaks it down in that mindset. And it was a really, really good course. And you, me, always runs. Relatively cheap. So But yeah, and David Baba's been teaching forever, so plug for his Python course. On Udemy.. So have at it

Alex: 20:52

All right.

Pat: 20:52

See,

Alex: 20:53

Next skill set,

Pat: 20:55

yeah. Let's see what we got next. Well this is a no brainer too. I feel like, this is not such a buzzword anymore. It's more like, it's a here word, but any sort of cloud services, right. AWS being the elephant in the room. Right? That's the most popular one. But you also have Azure out there, gcp, which is Google's flavor. I think Oracle has a cloud now. HP has one, Alibaba is a little smaller one, so like, but the big three, right? That's gonna be aws, Azure, and gcp, right? So I think you need to have some sort of form of, cloud skills, awareness, whatever you wanna call it. That's definitely gotta be on your radar. So how does that transfer from, OnPrem to, to cloud services? And there is some nuance, right? And I'm sort of finding that out now as I start to build our cloud There are some nuances of, you can't just treat it like an OnPrem data center. I guess things don't necessarily work that way in the same facet that you're looking at. So, so yeah, definitely some sort of cloud services. But AWS being the big one, they're the biggest market share. And I've worked in both. I've worked actually all three Aws, Azure and gcp. They're all pretty much similar. They just have different terminologies. But I do think

Kyle: 22:09

you.

Pat: 22:09

just it's a different mindset than just trying to Oh yeah. Throw a switch in your data center and VLANs and off you go in the cloud, it's there. It's different. It's not the same it's not the same structure cuz they abstract a lot of that from you, which is supposed to make it easier. But at the same time you sort of have to like, oh man, like you have to fill in the gaps cuz you don't have to do that anymore. And we're just so wired to doing things a certain way. It's tough.

Alex: 22:37

Yeah. I think that's kinda led to some benefits. Uh, So now that you're abstracting some of that tedious, repetitive work I think you can do more than you could with the same amount of man hours. And if you can't beat'em, join'em. That's kind of how I feel with AWS and Azure. Those are the two that I have the most experience with. And it just seems like every month those guys are pushing out some new feature that just fits exactly into what people need. I mean, they take feedback pretty well. And at this point, you said before, it's not something that's coming, it's here at this point. You can see people using AWS that have a 10 person shop, and you can go all the way up to Netflix, which runs its entire infrastructure on aws, which is just hard to fathom. And maybe it's the uh, the age of instant gratification too. The idea that you can just, Hey, I wanna start my business. Let's just build it in AWS in a week, as opposed to let's build a data center and maybe we'll have clients serviced on it in a year. And it's amazing. It's for any type of rapid growth. I just don't see how you can get around not using these services. And that's how we use it today. I mean, it's how Disney uses it, how Netflix uses it, how all these places do. It's just they wanna grow so quickly, they just can't wait on,

Pat: 24:10

Yeah.

Alex: 24:10

Servers and racks and power. So it's what you need to do. And with that comes, like you said, all the nuances with these different cloud providers and they have just like a matrix of certifications that you can do. And there's actually to the point right now where the people that I interviewed about this, they even came right out and said certifications are something they're actually looking for. So I think 10 years ago in the networking field, we were, everyone's like, Yeah, you have your CCNA or not. Right now people are looking, Are you at AWS solutions architect? Are you an AWS cloud prac practitioner? I think that's their fundamental, that's their entry level one. And just like I said with talking about I P V six and encoding and that, I think at this point you should probably learn coding before you learn. I P V six. I would probably say I would push somebody to do the AWS fundamentals search track before they would a ccna. I mean, it's getting real close to that at this point Because even the fundamentals I think goes over some pre networking fundamentals as well. So at this, it's more relevant, it seems in most jobs,

Pat: 25:27

yeah. I would tend to agree with that. Also from a. Note perspective. I took the AZ 900 a few months ago, which is basically Azure's, um, Cloud practitioner, right? So just a break in, right? The entry level one. And it was good. There was a couple different things. People were like, Oh, it's just a vocab test. Here's the Azure service, here's what it does, blah, blah. I got more than just that. There was some heavy governance and compliance things on there that really wasn't ready for us. But it is a, an entry level one. And then, the AZ104 is is the architect exam, right? That kind of thing. And similar to AWS's solutions architect, in that same vein. I would agree that the The cloud cert are really, super popular at the moment. And they don't seem to be, going anywhere. And I've worked at shops that are completely cloud, like Alex mentioned, Netflix is completely in aws. And I've worked at places that are completely in the cloud and it is a different beast than, than an on-prem. But like, like Alex said to, if you're looking for scalability, you just can't beat the cloud. Cuz literally you can have. Servers and grow in minutes versus, with this whole pandemic thing, right? The whole 2020, the covid thing and, shipping times and wait times are a year plus. Like you're, we're having trouble getting Cisco gear for 9, 10, 12, 12 months. It's just like, how do you do anything with, without that stuff, without that physical hardware. I, I just don't think you can beat the scalability of the cloud. You can literally have stuff spun up in minutes and off you go and again, that's the sign of the times we're in and, instant gratification, right? The faster you can get it, bigger, harder, faster.

Kyle: 27:01

I definitely understand what you're talking about. We have we ordered things eight, nine months ago and they're still like, Well, we may get'em to you before the end of the year. It's crazy

Pat: 27:11

It's just wild. Like I was waiting on Cisco SD land Boxees for, I don't know if, was that they, I mean, they were ordered before I started in, in, in May. And we just got'em, We just got'em in literally like, like three weeks ago. It was like, Holy Hannah, from, from last January till October. Jesus. But yeah, for scalability, the cloud is where that rains, king sort of thing. But I have to go off the beaten path a little bit in our cloud. There will, there won't be asa fire powers, It'll be Palo Alto. So I have to throw that little nuance out there. So

Alex: 27:45

So that's your skill set to learn Yeah. Yeah. Palo Altos,

Pat: 27:50

That's it. I do have a Palo Alto cert, so that, that does help me, the know, last January. So

Alex: 27:56

I'm surprised it hasn't come up, cuz it's something that I've noticed in the last few jobs that I've been with last three really. It seems like in the security field where there is, has been a pretty noticeable shift away from Cisco over to Palo Alto. I'm sure there's probably numbers that back that up, but I've seen it time and time again where it's probably more valuable to say that, you know Palo Alto than, you know, Asa or Firepower at this point. I think that resonates with more people.

Pat: 28:24

Yeah. The only drawback I see on the pow stuff is it's expensive, right? It does carry a heavy hand when it comes to the cash. But as far as usability and things of that nature I think Palo Alto though is up there with the the upper echelon for sure. That's just what I've been seeing. So,

Alex: 28:42

And I guess before we skip on to the next thing I guess I should bring up with when it comes to the cloud cuz I did mention that there's, certifications I mentioned the fundamentals the cloud practitioner for aws. The other thing, and I think a Azure does this too, I'm just more familiar with aws, Their search structure also really tailors. Specific job role that you have. There's tracks that are really focused on developers and DevOps systems guys and network engineering guys. So, it gives you an entry into it. Once you get that practitioner fundamentals, you can really branch off into something that's very specific. So even if you are a network engineer, there are AWS certs that are focused for you if there's developers. And I think, like I said, I think Azure does the same kind of thing, but that's something that people can certainly look into if you are, I know my team since, I manage network engineers. There's several guys right now that are doing the aws, uh, advanced network specialty, I think is what it's called. So that just goes over some of the more in depth. Powerful networking tools with aws. Things like direct connects and transit gateways and things like that. People might not get into a whole lot if they don't have a pretty complex network, but yeah, there's something there for everyone. They

Pat: 30:04

Yeah, Azure does the same thing. Azure has the AZ 700, which is basically just network focused for in things inside Azure. So, virtual networks. Express routes and things of that nature. It's very network heavy. So, that's probably on my radar at some point. But I hear that's a doozy. So they're saying take the Azure, the AZ 1 0 4, which is like the architect exam to get a holistic understanding of Azure and then branch into the network stuff. So that's kind of where it's

Alex: 30:32

Yeah, I think that's Amazon's thing to start with. Fundamentals, then move on to solutions architect. at least the associate level, and then try a specialty.

Pat: 30:42

Go from there. Yep. Makes sense. So yeah, anything cloud you can't, you certainly can't go wrong with that. Just, the big three in the room are AWS is Azure and gcp. And I mean at, even out of those three, I think AWS is obviously is the elephant in the room, cuz it just has such a large

Alex: 30:58

we probably should have pulled some numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's something like 60% AWS and 30 uh Azure and 10 or eight gcp, and then everything else is in that.

Pat: 31:17

right. Yep. That makes sense. No, for sure. The next one here is an interesting one cuz I'm sort of getting familiar with it myself. But it's really big in the software world. Devs use it and it's almost like if you're a dev, you automatically know how to use this thing. It's like you're born with it, that kind of thing. but but no get and GitHub are is the big one there as well. So I, I, I. I tried to do some get things. It's a little fuzzy to me on how the actual structure works. I think it's, for me, for my brain, I think it's a little clunky, but I know people that love it, that like, swear by it, that sort of thing. And the software dev certainly swear by it cuz in their world it's, I think a lot of use for is, version control and, things of that nature. And it's it helps in that aspect of keeping things in line. So, yeah. But GI and GitHub are definitely on this in demand tech list of 2023 for sure. It's huge. It's very popular.

Alex: 32:09

Yeah. We talked about. Network engineering, classic network engineering is dead. And we're kind of combining network engineering and software engineering. So I think this is just something that, like you said, software engineers have kind of pushed into this. Software engineers that became network engineers now we use get and it's something that maybe you see it in bigger companies and you don't see it as much in smaller companies. Cuz I've only really come across it, and again, I've done nothing but network engineering in my past two jobs with this have been bigger companies. But yeah, like you said, version control just having that central source of truth it's like this is where everything lives. I think there also might be the idea that, again, the remote world, we have people and bigger companies, they have so many people working on the same thing. All over the globe at all different times. The idea that you can easily figure out who's done what, when, revert back quickly. I think those all kind of are reasons that we're going into this. And I felt the same way that you did it. I was fuzzy at first with Get, and I kind of thought it was just one more tool. It just complicates things. But now I'm a huge advocate of it. I can completely see why people use it. And I u I use it every day at this point.

Kyle: 33:26

Oh wow.

Alex: 33:26

It's something that and I will tell people I use the command line and only the command line. I know some people use Gooeys, but that's something that makes me feel good. I can go back to something else that I can do on a command line. Cause everyone knows it looks cooler when you do it in the command line. So if the kids come in and they see you on a gooey, they don't think anything of it. They see you doing stuff on get command line. They think you're a wizard. Yeah. It's like, Supreme Hacker or something like that.

Kyle: 33:54

Yeah.

Pat: 33:55

It's like, Hey dad, are you landing the Hubble Telescope? This is awesome.

Alex: 33:59

Can you c into my school and

Pat: 34:02

That's right

Alex: 34:02

It's, it has nothing to do with this at all.

Pat: 34:07

I actually, I for whatever reason this sticks with me all the time. And Kyle, you mentioned it, you just mentioned it one time off the cuff and it always sticks with me cuz I think it was such a cool idea. You have a buddy that uses GI for his resume control rights of different versions of his resume. And I thought that's a that's a wild way to use it. That's kinda crazy. Is pretty crazy. I gotta admit that. That's pretty cool. I'm gonna try to get on that guy's level.

Kyle: 34:32

yeah. I've heard of somebody else using it to write a book,

Pat: 34:36

Okay.

Kyle: 34:36

And they can do all the chapters and, if they edit something or change or want to go back, that, it's all there.

Alex: 34:43

Okay.

Pat: 34:44

at that.

Alex: 34:46

I think another reason that people are using it and you see it come up is kind of like the explosion of APIs where people now have the ability to access things in a standardized way. I think just a lot of things let you pull from a GI repo, Like I know aws, you can pull stuff from a GI repo, so it's just kinda like a, something that's being adopted globally, where if you have something in the structure and get other things are gonna understand it. Whereas, they aren't gonna understand some random wiki docket you have or something like that where they'll understand. Workspace flow and folder structure. So maybe that's something else that has kinda led to its popularity, but I'm seeing it more and I got a feeling that just like network engineers are gonna be doing some scripting at some point in the next year or two, I think it's pretty likely that network engineers are gonna be pushing changes through get, and they're gonna be pushing changes to a, like a online repo rather than pushing changes to a device. That's probably gonna be the way people do things going forward. And yeah, at least with PlayStation that's how they made all their changes. It's just you weren't logging into a device, you were modifying a file that was on a get repo, which would then, Well I won't go any further than that, but that's how you were making changes

Pat: 36:12

That's funny. No I totally agree. I totally agree. In the software world that we're living in going forward, sdn, and you try to, decipher buzz words from what's actually here, Right. That kind of thing. And, but I do think, the way the world's moving as far as network gear and a lot of things, right? You're pulling from a central place, right? You're just push, you know that central place has your config and it's pushing it down to the actual device. So, your control plane, your management plane that's all off of the actual box and into some sort of central intelligence and get, can be that central intelligence. Then all the box has to do is sort of call home, right? And there's just one place for it. Instead of making changes to, a thousand boxes, just have those boxes call a central place and you just have to do it once. So yeah, I could totally see, where that's going to. And, SD WAN has the same ideology, right? All your changes are done outta controller and then the controller is then pushes down to the actual edge devices and, the edge devices just have the data plane on them. That's literally, that's it, right? So,

Alex: 37:14

Yeah, it's a great analogy. I mean, networks are getting bigger, so managing individual devices just isn't feasible anymore. So yeah, there's a separation of control plane, where you make changes and the actual data plane where the packets are going. It just that single pane of glass where, hey, this is the truth. This is what you modify, and it will figure out how to send it to whatever it needs to.

Pat: 37:37

That's it.

Alex: 37:40

We'll see that more and more, and I'm not sure if you have a way I am new. So I'm not sure if you have a way to link this, but I, there is a really good blog post on Cisco that I used a lot when I was trying to figure out get, it's get for network engineers, but I guess we can figure out some way to link that. So anyone who's looking to get a fundamental understanding of get, that's whether you're network engineer or not, that's a good place to start.

Pat: 38:05

That's me. I'm raising my hand. That would be me. I I'll take

Kyle: 38:09

I was like, Do you have a question, Pat

Alex: 38:11

Yes.

Pat: 38:12

Yeah. Hello yeah, we can put that link in our show notes, so if you're interested in that check the show notes of this episode and we'll get you a link to get to that website. And I'm certainly gonna check that out cuz I am a get newbie. Let me tell you. It's just not it's just not the world I live in, not the, I don't want to, It's just something I just haven't wrapped my head around yet. So we're always about moving the needle here at the show, right? That's it's it Next one I think is going to be huge. I don't think it's hit its full stride yet, but I think it's, I think it's huge. I really do. And I've played with this a little bit not recently, but a little bit. And it's been really cool. But just container technologies, right? So whether that's, Docker was it Kubernetes, right? Kubernetes is another one. Like any of those containerized solutions. And Alex, I think you put it real nicely before we hit record. It's sort of the next iteration or the natural progression of VMware the virtualization world, if you will. Don't, yeah, don't take that for like the gospel or anything, but it's a good analogy, right?

Alex: 39:15

I think it is. I think at this point everyone in it has a pretty firm understanding of what VMs are, how they were beneficial, and the idea of having a bare bones 30 pound server that serves one function at all times. It's kind of something that doesn't happen. So when we moved to this idea of hypervisors, like, VMware, ESXi and virtual machines, that was just amazing. The idea that we can have a single box that performs multiple functions, and now it's kind of, rather than saying it's a physical box that has multiple servers, now we're kind of abstracting out a little bit further. And now we're saying individual parts of an operating system that run an application. So the idea is with a container, Say you have application A that needs umuntu. Version 1402 and 1403 breaks it and your developers don't wanna fix it. Now the idea is you can have Docker running on a single kernel, and I won't go into architecture that much, but just the idea that you can have this container that has all the dependencies that you would ever need running the exact thing you need to make this one application work. And they are really lightweight, which is another huge plus someone who's never worked with containers. If you try spinning up a vm, it could take minutes. I mean, try spinning up a VM and AWS Azure, I mean, you could take half hour depending on what you're spinning up. You spin up a Docker container, which allows one application to work. It's seconds. I mean, it's one second. Boom, it's up. That is a game changer. Especially when you, I mean, this goes hand in hand with the cloud guys. Aws, for anyone who's not familiar with it, these cloud guys, they generally pay for usage, pay for uptime. So before you used to spin up a VM and you have to pay for that vm, even it's being used and because it takes so long to spin up, it's really kind of difficult to spin up on demand. But the fact that these containers are so quick, you could do a situation where, whatever service you might have, it will have some type of logic that immediately turn up a container if it starts getting slammed hard and because it can do that in seconds. Now you can pretty much tear down and build containers to meet your demands. And because of their pricing model on these giants, that's savings of like, unheard of savings. I mean, you save millions adapting container technologies versus just your classic bms. And obviously I don't work for Netflix or Meta, but I can imagine that if something brand new comes out and they know it's gonna get hit hard, they just have something in place that's gonna spin up lots of containers. And then once that huge flood of people trying to watch something is gone, now they can decommission'em real easily and they're paying for what they use. It's something. If you haven't noticed, I'm pretty enthusiastic at containers. I really think they're awesome and I think it's something that not a lot of people really understand what they do and what they accomplish, but it's something where you really should know it. And it's another one that I think a good link to put in there is network. Chuck, I don't know if anyone's ever watched Network He's got a great introduction to Docker and containers in general, which if you're just fundamentally understand VMs and it, this makes perfect sense and you'll really understand the advantages to containers.

Pat: 43:14

Yeah, I would agree. I personally, I, this is a year or two ago at a previous job, but I played with a, I played Docker a little bit just to spin up an application that actually I implemented at my current job. It's called NetBox. So it's basically an IPAM solution. It's a whole host of things in including an IPAM solution. Shout out to my man Jordan, who is my NetBox guru, and I talked to him quite. Fellow Cisco champion, who may be a guest on the show shortly. We'll see if he see if he's got time for us little guys. But he works directly with with the guys at NetBox. It's an open source program. Jeremy Stretch is the guy, is the brainchild behind NetBox former Digital Ocean employee that said, Hey, there's gotta be a better way to

Kyle: 43:57

Hmm.

Pat: 43:57

to document network gear ips, all kinds of stuff. And he kind he basically built NetBox from the ground up. So, I've always wanted to implement it cause I think it's such a cool tool. But I could never get anyone else to sort. Get in my camp, and like, so I was the only one pushing the rock up the hill, trying to get this implemented and like nobody else would come along. So just to play with it, I spun it up in a docker container, like literally right on my laptop. And it was, I had it all up, it was ready to go and I really, played with it and got really used to it. So it was really cool. But yeah, Docker and it runs on Ubuntu, it runs on a flavor of Ubuntu. So I literally spun off Ubuntu in a, in a docker right on my laptop. And boom, I had NetBox up and running in minutes. It was crazy on how easy that was. I didn't have to go to the server guys and say, Hey, I need a vm, I need this flavor, I need it, this much guts, blah, blah, blah. I literally, On my desktop, I controlled the whole thing end to end. And it was awesome. So yeah, that was my little spiel on Docker, but I could totally see this being the the next flavor, I guess you could say of VMs cuz you're not running the whole boat, you're literally just running the application that you need and that's awesome.

Alex: 45:10

Yeah. I was just gonna say that because you're containing the application it's extracting a lot of that information that you don't need to be aware of anymore. So there's containers to spin up a web server and before you're probably gonna have to know Apache and how to do those simple commands to get that up and running. Now you can just say, I want to download a web server container. You run it and now it's running and you don't have to do anything else.

Pat: 45:41

Yep,

Kyle: 45:42

Remember the first time I saw it a couple years ago, I think it was John Alaska that we had on was like, Oh, let me show you this thing. And it felt like a, like I was watching like a Chris Angel show, you know, he's just like, Watch this. And he is like, Yeah. He's like, boom. And he is like, There's a website. And I'm like, it took like three seconds. And he is like, Watch this. Bam. Now it's gone. And I was like, Okay. And he is like, But it's back again. And I'm What What are you doing? Stop it. Get right. I'm like, You wanna do a website? I could build you a vm. We can install whatever. He's like, You don't have to go through all the hassle anymore. Like watch, it's just this fast. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it. It's crazy.

Alex: 46:25

Yeah. Yeah. It's an awesome technology. I think generally you have to be a bigger company to really benefit. From it versus just your classic vm, which people are just pretty familiar with nowadays, but anyone could use it. It's just I think people, because they haven't used it and a VM works just as well for their needs. They don't need the ability to turn up a VM in three seconds like that. There's no benefit to it for do that. They'll wait the half hour rather than learning how to do Docker or Kubernetes.

Kyle: 46:57

right.

Alex: 46:58

so, but yeah, you will definitely see it, and I have seen it in the bigger companies I've been with

Pat: 47:04

Yep. So that's a big one. The next one, we have two more. The next one

Alex: 47:09

near and dear to my heart.

Pat: 47:10

it is very near and dear to all of our hearts on this show. But it's still the tried and true way, Right? It's just, you just need it, like you have to understand. How information gets from point A to point B in order to do anything with that information. Security's the same way. I mean there's thongs of people coming and I'll probably get shit for this, but there's thongs of people coming out in the cyber security world doing all this crazy cyber security stuff and they can't tell you how it gets from A to B cuz they don't understand network fundamental. There it is. You need network fundamentals. That's just the a way of life. You still, you have all this fan dangled technology when as Alex, our buddy Kurt used to say, Don't get so worked up. It all boils down to zeros and ones right. You gotta understand how it goes A to B and a lot of people don't. A lot of people like living at their level of what they're learning, but don't take the time to, to understand how that knowledge or how that data gets to their level. And I think that's a massive disservice for a lot of people.

Alex: 48:16

All these servers, these fancy server, they still have IP addresses on

Pat: 48:20

That's it. That's right. Maybe if we move to I p V eight maybe it'll be different, but

Alex: 48:25

maybe,

Pat: 48:26

but no, I think network fundamentals is definitely a skill up there. Cuz again, you have to understand how to get to A to B. Right. And I, and I'll say this again for the this is just the cyber security cuz we were just talking about it, but, how do you expect to, stop a man in the middle attack if you don't understand what a man in the middle attack is from a network fundamental perspective.

Alex: 48:46

You have a fancy firewall, but you put everything on the same subnet, but

Pat: 48:50

Exactly

Alex: 48:51

problem.

Pat: 48:52

right. There's no dmc, there's no management, there's just, everything is just on the one. Everyone's played in the same pool. That makes no sense. Yeah, that makes no sense. So, yeah, network fundamentals. And when you're talking that, you're talking certs like, net plus, which is the comp tea flavor. Ccna, which is obviously Cisco's.

Alex: 49:10

Still think it's the king.

Pat: 49:11

Yeah I really do. And we talked about, cl there's an argument there for cloud search more than the ccna, but there's also an argument for the CCNA more than the cloud, right? Those both ways. And, know, I see people all the time asking, Oh, should I get my Net Plus or go right to ccna? And I'm like dude, just go to the ccna. Cuz it, I personally, I think it still holds more weight on a resume than a Net Plus does. And that's not taking anything away from a Net Plus. I think Comp Tia's got some strong stuff there, but I think the CCNA just a, it holds more weight. People recognize it more, and I think over the last couple iterations, I think it's a better exam. I really do, I think it encompasses more real world stuff and there's even some some automation, some Python stuff on there. So they've really done a nice job of really kind of, gentrifying that certain, bringing it more up to date.

Alex: 50:01

And I think when anyone takes a cert, they shouldn't just think of it as a way to put a bullet point on your resume. The real reason you do a cert, you, even if you don't say it should be to learn something. And of all the certs that I've taken, I still probably would go back and say, The CCNA is the one that after I was done studying for it and I passed that exam, I felt like I learned the most in all the certs that I've taken. When I was done with the CCNA and pass, that I'd learned more doing that exam than I did my NP or my cc i e or any other surf that I had taken. It's just, that was. The biggest jump in my understanding uh, was taking the Like I, I really, before then, I was just an IT tech. I was like, Wow, I'm like a network engineer now. I really understand how this stuff works. And I think we talked about this a little before the call or before we started recording and we talk again. This is probably the third or fourth time we mention it, that classic network engineers are dead or, we're combining with software engineers. And I think it's because of that movement that now network fundamentals aren't just taken for granted. I think five years ago. If you had any type of IT job, they just assume you had pretty basic network understanding. But now it's, everything is so abstracted when you're working on AWS and containers, all this other stuff. I think now you're getting people that have spent so much time doing that, or that's the only thing, exposure to that they've never had to deal with plugging in a switch and don't know how Mac addresses work and setting up a router so they don't understand this stuff. So now people aren't taking that for granted and they're asking more straightforward questions. Like I, I think you might be surprised if you're hiring someone to work on yours cloud and you might ask'em, What is a V L A? And maybe they'll struggle because they, you don't really have to provision that within aws, so you may not understand how that actually

Pat: 52:13

It doesn't exist. Right? It doesn't exist now. It's a good point. Yeah. I think network fundamentals for sure. It just, it's just one of those things where you need it's a core fundamental and like we said, the CCNA is still the king but can I shout out to, when I took my ccmp, at the time it was three tests. It was route switch and troubleshoot. I'd still think t shoot, the ccmp T shoot was probably my favorite exam. And that thing was awesome. You got in there and you really started to grind away and really got to do some cool stuff. So I, it's not that way anymore. So it's a dead exam, but I wanted to give it the shadow cause that was a fun one to take

Alex: 52:49

Oh yeah. When I took my ccmp, it was route switch icn, which is security, and then I think you had an OC something, It was kinda like voice related, so I didn't get to take the troubleshoot one either. My c c I had a troubleshooting section. I think they still have that

Pat: 53:07

Yeah. Yeah. The Ccmp T shoot was was awesome. That was a

Alex: 53:11

but but I like the idea.

Pat: 53:13

Yep, for sure. Last but not least, I dunno, Alex, you wanna, or Kyle, you wanna kick this one off aren't you a Linux guy, Yeah. No, Kyle, Aren't you a

Kyle: 53:21

All right. I mean, kind of sorta I've played enough, broke enough things, so, Yeah. Some Linux fundamentals really diving in there with, you have your different flavors of what Yeah. Redhead or Debian based, you know, dis Yep, Yep. Yeah, I don't know. Linux Plus is the one that sticks out for me for from Compt. If you're looking for a certification path.

Pat: 53:46

Yep, I think the whole, literally the whole cloud runs on Linux is the back end. Literally the entire cloud infrastructure is just a bunch of Linux servers that nobody sees on the front end, right? It's just this what it is. But yeah, Linux fundamentals are definitely one that is very popular. Kind of going forward and again, the more things are abstracted from you, in the cloud you just kind of get down to, the bare bones and stuff. And I think Linux has a lot of functionality inside the cloud, cuz. The cloud runs on it. So it's less of a jump to to get it to work in the cloud if you're already, if it's on Linux and you're, and you need Linux, it's less steps to get to the end product or get what you're trying to get out of it. So yeah, definitely Linux fundamentals. I'm just a, I'm Dan, I'm just enough to, be dangerous at it. For a while there in college, Kyle, I was running ver different versions of Ubuntu on my personal laptop. Cause I thought I was a cool kid. It's just like, Oh, I get tired of windows. Let me see what Buntu is. And

Kyle: 54:42

Right. Let me see if I can add 24 more steps to do a simple process.

Pat: 54:47

right. It's one of those things. Yeah, OSU was like super raw back in the day, like early two thousands. Like, it just wasn't functional. Like today, it's not terrible. Like as an everyday driver desktop, it's not terrible. But I haven't had the, I haven't had. Buntu Linux on one of my laptops here at home for a while. So I don't know, maybe we'll get it, but maybe I'll try a Docker container and spin that up and get my fix and,

Kyle: 55:08

There

Pat: 55:08

you know, whatever. But but no Buntu is probably the easiest flavor. I would say for, people trying to dive into Linux from a from a non-business perspective, just an everyday, home user. Tu is everyday driver. Yeah. Tu is probably your, your best bet.

Alex: 55:26

Yeah, I mean, Sanos was the quintessential, that's what open source, what everyone was using for servers. And I think now it's kind of transitioned over to Rocky Linux, which is, because I guess Sanos, I'm not much of a Lennox guy, but what, I guess Sanos is really just not supported across the board now. I mean, they're not, well, I guess it's open source, but I guess they're just really not adding to it anymore. So they're not, So I think Rocky Linux is what people are using nowadays. And I think that just goes hand in hand with what we keep saying about network, engineerings are shifting a little bit. And because software engineers are more network engineering and network engineers are more software engineering I think you're seeing a lot more Linux. Fundamentals that you need in order to do your job well because you're gonna come across like and in all likelihood, you're probably gonna come across Docker that's running on Linux. You're going to be sping up EC2 instances and AWS that are gonna be Linux servers. And of the people I interviewed, it wasn't, this wasn't the most common one. I think four or five, I think four people mentioned Linux fundamentals. And they still, it's not like they said you have to be an expert. But if you know a way around it, you're likely to run into some form of Linux in today's age. And if you just know how to get around, it's certainly gonna help.

Pat: 56:54

Yeah I would agree with that. Linux is, obviously, it's here to stay. It's been around for decades. It's not going anywhere. most of today's infrastructure and yesterday's, even yesterday's infrastructure when they had it on physical boxes or even VMs, that it was all Linux, on databases and all that kind of crazy stuff. Web servers and that sort of thing. So yeah, Linux fundamentals definitely one that's up there to at least have a basic, understanding of, sudo and, that all, that whole

Alex: 57:22

Yeah,

Kyle: 57:23

Hmm.

Alex: 57:24

just the file structure. Yeah. Being able to navigate through it. Move files, change files.

Pat: 57:29

Yep.

Alex: 57:30

Yeah, for

Pat: 57:30

Exactly. So that was, that's it. That's, See on the list. You got, You guys got any more? As we were talking here, I think we hit quite a few. That was.

Kyle: 57:39

that that was good.

Alex: 57:41

Yeah. So at this point, we gotta hope the audience responds back and tells us what we missed.

Pat: 57:46

That's right. I'd probably say the one that we missed, or I don't wanna say missed, but the one that was talked about the last couple years that isn't on this list is the whole cybersecurity tree it's a security world going forward and, that sort of thing. So maybe that's another episode to really do that. Cause that, that can get down a rabbit hole pretty quick. all kinds of veins in the cyber world. But that would be the only one I would say that is not on this list. But, not for a lack of trying it just it was, it's been hot the last couple years. It continues to be hot, but everywhere you turn somebody's hacked and, know, all this other kind of crazy stuff. So it's it's definitely needed. So, you can't go wrong with cybersecurity either.

Alex: 58:25

and the, obviously when I've only spoken to a dozen people or so I don't get everyone's opinion and because I've been in a networking field, that is the majority of the people that I know, so, but I'm sure there's things. Even though I didn't hear it, I hear it kind of in through the grapevine, things like machine learning and deep learning that people

Pat: 58:45

Yeah.

Alex: 58:45

probably heard as buzzwords and don't really know how that ties into what they may be doing. Maybe that's something that people are screaming saying that's what you need to know. But yeah, I can only mention what I heard from

Pat: 59:01

That's it. Your tentacles only go out so far, right? So, All right guys. That's it. We're gonna wrap on that one. We're just about an hour into this, I think, or roughly around that hour mark. So, appreciate everybody joining this week to the new and improved in a third cohost. Breaking down the bites, right? Now it's gonna be awesome going forward. I've had quite a few people reach out to us and want to be guests on the show. So that just trying to get schedules together and get everybody ready to rock and roll here. So, make sure you visit our website, breakingbytespod.io that's right. We're doing the.io with the cool kids. You can subscribe to the show

Alex: 59:38

All right.

Pat: 59:39

right from there. So we, all of our platforms are there. ITunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher pretty much anywhere. There's an RSS feed there as well. So if you're just looking for an RSS feed, you can find it there. Throw us a rating on iTunes, that would be awesome. Most of you listen from iTunes, or at least that's what the stats tell us. So you're already there. You might as well throw us a rating or two. Simply tell a friend. That's good too, right? That word of mouth is always good and today's technically driven world. So, that's surely help us out. Be sure to follow us on all of our socials, Twitter, Facebook, Discord pretty much everywhere. Like I said, our website has a contact form on it, so you wanna throw us a note in there that goes right to our email box. So have that. So there's a billion ways to get in touch with us. If you have any feedback or wanna hear something on the show, certainly let us know. We have a survey out there for y'all to take. It's just like 10, or I think there's like nine or 10 questions on there. It's completely anonymous. We don't know who you are. It just aggregates answers that we've that for the questions that we have up there just helps us tweak the show a little bit to just get a little closer to you guys and be a little more interesting for everyone out there. So, that's it, Alex, Kyle, it's been fun. We'll see y'all next week.

Kyle: 1:00:50

It's

Alex: 1:00:50

Thanks. That's it.