Leadership Unleashed: What's in a Leader?

We're back this week talking about what leadership looks like at all levels of the IT spectrum. What does it take to get to the next level when leadership is involved? What are some good leadership qualities, some bad ones, and everything in between! Join us  as we break it all down!

Transcript

Pat: 0:31

Hey everybody. Welcome back to this week's edition of breaking down the bites. We're back as usual. I'm your host, Pat. You can find me on Twitter at layer eight packet. That's the number eight. If I Kyle on Twitter at Danith two 56, and also as usual, as always find the show on Twitter at breaking bites pod. We're pretty active on Twitter. So come say hello. If you don't mind, that would be great. Kyle is not here this week. I kind of sprung it on last minute to kind of verify he was in for the show tonight and he actually cooked a pulled pork a pork shoulder this afternoon, so he's probably elbow deep in and scarfing on that. So, which is much better than the show anyway. So it's all good.

Alex: 1:14

We're

Pat: 1:14

had it, my friend. That's right. So Alex is with me as usual. We are back after a few weeks. You know, the Cisco hangover and whatnot and the summer is always a busy time for everybody. So trying to get as many shows as we can in here, but it does, does the, you know, a week or two does go by as various things are schedules and busy and whatnot. So I thought we'd get back together this week, talk a little shop. Alex, what's up, man? How you doing?

Alex: 1:39

Yeah not a whole lot to report. I know this last month or so we've been kind of late on these these recordings and podcasts. So hopefully we can get back in routine starting this week

Pat: 1:52

yeah, for sure.

Alex: 1:54

and I'm ready for it.

Pat: 1:57

Yeah, rock and roll.

Alex: 1:58

know.

Pat: 1:59

I I have a couple of feelers out for some guests. So just waiting on them to say yay or nay and setting up some schedules. So, that would be really cool. But yeah we're definitely got some content coming out some good good topics coming at your way. So. Hang with us, stay with us for a while and come say hello as usual. So it's all good there. So this week and Alex, this was your kind of idea, which I thought was a great one kind of throwing it back to a little bit of our roots kind of aiming at the. Entry level person, folk trying to break in, whatever. But this kind of goes across the board and relatable to pretty much anybody whether you're just starting out or whether you've been in the industry 30 years and, you know, still kind of churning, but I thought we'd talk about leadership. This week, kind of what that looks like at the various levels again, entry junior, senior, yada, yada and then, you know, kind of some of our good and bad what to look for, some qualities in a good leader, things of that nature. And then Alex, you've been on your drive fighting that LA traffic. You've been doing some audio books on some leadership stuff since you've been in the management role game for about six or seven years now. So, so kind of, kind of touch on all of that. So I don't know when you want to, I kind of set it up. You want to start it off, I guess, if you have something on

Alex: 3:13

Okay, and I might start off by asking a question, but I thought it might be a good thing to start with what leadership looks like at every different stage of your career, because I think some people think of leadership and they think of manager, director and above, and that's not really the case showing some leadership skills at each level, it can't do anything but help your career, and maybe it's not really obvious, What you can actually do. So having said that, I guess we'll start with just junior role. I mean, fresh out of college and. One, two years max, what does leadership look like at that level? Or how can you show it? Cause it's not like at that point, you're going to be talking to VPs and changing company policy. So I'll throw it on you. If you can't think of anything, I guess I'll pick it up. But

Pat: 4:09

I'm quick on my feet.

Alex: 4:10

you go. So if you think back to when you were a junior. What are some things that you think that you did that kind of showcase some leadership or maybe now that you're in a senior role, what do you see sometimes from, you know, the junior level guys that make you think, all right, these guys are going somewhere.

Pat: 4:28

Yeah, I think those two things are very different. I think if you're in a junior role now, this is traditionally speaking, you know, out of college, right? So what you're. What, 20, 22, 23, somewhere in there, right? So I think age has a big part to do with it as far as like the maturity level, right? Cause I'm a completely different person at 22 as I was, as I am now, you know, oh man, almost pushing 40. That feels weird. Anyway.

Alex: 4:55

I'm not far behind.

Pat: 4:57

That's right. So, so I think mindset comes into play certainly with age and just kind of grind in and, you know, being in this industry, right. Everyone at 24 wants to set the world on fire, right. They have all these ideas and how things should be and blah, blah, blah. And then they, you know, they They have diamonds in their eyes and they're ready to, you know, be the next Bill Gates. I, it just, and then the industry chews on them a little bit. They go through various positions and they level out or settle down, you know, if you will, that kind of thing. So from a junior perspective, I want to say my first real role in it, I think was at the data center was that tier point even though I didn't have a very technical. role. It was more of a body filling a seat kind of changing tapes and, you know, smart hands, things of that nature. It did kind of prepare me for, you know, what I wanted next, right? Which is always going to be in the networking world. That's just What I did and what I liked the most, or I guess I was, you know, I wasn't smart enough to do anything else at that point. So I figured, well, I'll go with the network world. The leadership for me is, you know, you try to get. hands on as, you know, as quick as possible. And I don't mean like, Hey, here's a network guy who's going to give you the reins for a change on a Friday night. Right. Or whatever. I would just say from a next level perspective, you're trying to get that mentor, right. You're trying to get them to be like, Oh, like, you know, Sit in on this call or, Hey, I have a ticket that, you know, you want to, you know, look over my shoulder, shoulder surf with me just to kind of get a feel of, you know, thought process from, okay, this is the problem start here and kind of work your way in or out, depending on which way that engineer likes to troubleshoot some like to go from the land outbound and some like to go from the land inbound. It just depends on who you're, who your mentor is and who you're shadowing. But. I would always, I think from a junior perspective, I think it's more of about a mental capacity or a mental, it's a mentality versus, yeah, this person's ready for a leadership role because he's good technically, because that doesn't always translate, right? You always see like, okay, this guy has been a technical person for 10 years and they, like, they throw them into management and it's a completely different. ballgame. So I think from a junior perspective, it's, he's looking for those next things. He's looking to shadow people. He's looking to, you know, dot his I's and cross his T's. And if you give him something in his wheelhouse, he's going to do it and he's going to do it right. He's going to, you know, and whatever he has questions on, he's going to ask the right things before pushing buttons or whatever that case may be. You know, so I think it's, I think it's surrounded around not necessarily the technical skill, it's more of he's doing the other things the right way first. And then the technical comes after that, if that makes sense.

Alex: 7:53

Okay, yeah, I can understand that. Anything else you want to add to that or want me to give my thoughts at the junior level?

Pat: 8:01

I think no, I think that was it. Like I said, I don't I don't need the junior guy to be trailblazing technical. Right. It's just, you know, can he follow directions? Does he do things the right way? Does he come to me with the same question over and over? That's a big pet peeve for me, by the way, I'm going to be full disclosure. Cause I've had people come to me and ask the same questions every couple of weeks, and it's just like, don't you write anything down? Like, this is the same problem you had two weeks ago. Like apply it and like soak the knowledge in instead of just trying to solve the problem for that. day or that fire. You know, the whole idea is to get the knowledge. So then you don't have to come to me the next time when it's similar or the same problem, you know, that sort of thing. So I find that is more to me. That is more. You're ready for either a the big, you know, your next technical role or be leadership wise. You can follow directions outside the technical bubble.

Alex: 8:55

Gotcha. Well, I think that's a good segue into 1 of the things that I was going to mention, and we'll talk about this probably later in the podcast, because you did mention that I was listening to quite a few audio books. So 1 of those books that I was listening to was good leaders ask great questions. So echoing what you were saying, if you're asking the same question over and over again, I don't think you're asking great questions. But yeah, I think that's important. That shows. A desire to understand why, which is a question that I think all leaders should understand. The other thing that I will suggest that anyone at a junior level does, cuz this, I feel like if you wanna be the best leader it might sound a bit counterintuitive, but leaders actually, I feel like turn into. Servant roles, which has probably a negative connotation to it. But the idea is that more of a leader you are, the more your mentality will change from what can I do to what can I can, what I can do for others. So at a junior level, I think one of the best things you can possibly do is if you see opportunities for challenging tasks or things that might be above your level that maybe mid level people would rather not do. If you're willing to kind of take on some of that work and ask for assistance I think they'll probably be more than happy to tell you how to do something if it gets it off their plate. Not only does that give you more experience, which is beneficial but I think that starts this whole leadership concept that I'll probably talk on more and more, which is this idea of. Constantly trying to help others and constantly trying to bring up other people, because if you're taking something away from them that they don't need to do, so they can focus on things that are much more relevant to that type of level, nothing but good things can happen from that. I think that's pretty much what I'll add to that. I know what you mentioned was you know, at the junior level, I don't think you're quite at the level where you want to start really raising your voice and saying this is how we should do things. You're probably not at that level yet. And it's probably not a great idea to do that. So I think I'm willing to cut it at that point. So I guess in summary seek to help others. especially like higher levels of you, mid level seniors by taking on challenging tasks and learning to ask great questions and, you know, learning from those questions and answers that you get.

Pat: 11:32

I think that's a good one. I think that's a pretty solid advice there from you. Fine, sir. What are we, what are you thinking? Like, I don't know. Do you want to do senior or team lead stuff first from a. Perspective. I don't know which one comes first. I guess it depends on company structure.

Alex: 11:47

Yeah, I would even go as far as to say, let's say we'll lump mid level senior level into, so, so we're talking more like software engineer, network engineer two, or. Senior level three, something like that. Um, so if I'm going to start, I think at this point, let's say you have five years experience now. So now you've got some real world experience. You probably understand. And let's say you have five years experience at the same company, which is even. Even better because now you understand the environment you're working in now. I think this is at the point where Okay, you're still not the guy running the show, but you've got to start giving your input this is where you should be more interested in why things are done the way they are and I think you still might need to know your place a little bit, but this is where I feel like you can respectively start asking Your manager or your senior level engineers, why a particular design was put in place, or even if you have. Some thoughts on something that you think should be done a little better, and I'm not expecting someone to go up and say, Hey, this isn't right. We should do it this way. That's not the way to do it. But, you know, question it. Like, is there a reason why we didn't do X, Y, Z, and maybe that can lead to a conversation where maybe you were wrong. And now you understand why things were done a certain way, which is certainly good. Or I think you could turn into something where they say, Oh, yeah, that is a good idea. And let's talk it through. Thank you. So there's more you can do, but I'll stop there and let you chime in with your thoughts on that and anything else you can think of at the mid level.

Pat: 13:32

Yeah I think that's good. I think there is truth there to, you know, the mid level. And to be honest with you, you know, if you're there five years at a company, that's great. It's just, it's very rare these days to be that long with somewhere you know, wink, nudge, nudge for those that know me, but you know, Hey, more power to you and people do it. And that's great. There's nothing wrong with that, you know, but yeah I think it does bode well for that person. If they've been there, that. Long and say, Hey, why are we doing this way? Because to me, I see a lot of people that come into a place and then like fresh, like within the first six months, want to change all this stuff. And it's like, you're not. You're not the boss, you're not this, like, and they want to change things without knowing why they were done that way in the first place, right? And there's many factors to that, right? There's many factors as far as like, okay, you know, we didn't have the money to upgrade that. You know, ASA to, or the FTD to a bigger box. But we needed X in the short term. So we bought another FTD to fit that need or whatever, right. Scaling issues you know, business needs, things of that nature. So, but a lot of people come in and be like, Oh, we're going to do this because I say, so it's like, well then, okay, you want to rip that bandaid off, but you don't know what else is behind that. Band Aid, I mean, like behind that band, it could be a flesh wound and you just have no idea. But they do want to try to reinvent the wheel you know, for various reasons. So yeah, I think the mid level guy is a, you know, is a perfect time to sort of dip your toes in that water to say, Hey, we've been doing this for this many years, whether it, you know, whether it's. Been done like this on purpose, whether there was just higher priorities in the budget to do X, Y, and Z. Why don't we try for next budget cycle to do X and do X because trying to solve for Y whatever. So I think that's a good place to kind of start. I think it's good to to again, you know, try not to make those decisions in a vacuum, because I think a lot of people do that too. I think people get hung up on titles. Today we're like, Oh, I can't do that because he's a senior and I'm only a junior or he's a team lead. He's not going to go for that. But if you have your, if you have your, you know, sort of ducks in a row, excuse the bad pun, you know, and make a legit. Business need or a business argument out of it. I think it holds weights. I think that's where you formulate the mid level person is the, is where you sort of formulate your, okay, I'm not focusing so much on technical. I mean, you are, you're swimming in the technical soup day in and day out, but you also, you're also like, Hey, there's a shiny object over here. It's called the business. And you start to like, realize that you. There's a purpose to all of this crazy technical stuff is to serve the business, which then in turn, you know, serves your paycheck. So I think the mid level person is where you start to really see things from a business perspective. And say, okay, instead of just throwing money at the newest technology, what does it actually, what does that technology do? To help the business get to that next level and with those questions, then to say, okay, why was it done this way in order to do this next, whatever, I'm just going to take Cisco DNA center as an example to to do DNA center. Why was the, why was X. Done this way. And if we can put in DNA center and fix X, then that's a bonus, right? That sort of thing. So I think the mid levels where you sort of blend the technical and the business needs together, and then when you get to that senior level, it's even more so from the business perspective and your hands are a little less technical, if you will, you're letting the people quote unquote below you kind of do their thing and be the smart people and you're sort of just driving the bus, right? If that, if I could use that. Analogy, so that's just my thought on the mid range folk

Alex: 17:40

All right. Yeah. And maybe that's something we should have talked about at the junior level too. Cause I think it is talking about how focused your work is changes as you move from different levels. So if we talk about the junior level, I think you're kind of focused on tasks, you know, like. You need to accomplish this mid level. Now the scope is bigger now. It's like, all right, maybe you're, you own a project, you know, like where we're networking guys. I'll use networking analogies, junior level, put in a firewall rule. You don't need to know why you put in a firewall rule on someone told you to do it, you put in that firewall, you know, mid level. Hey, let's let's put an entire firewall. All right. And maybe now you're starting to talk about the zone structure. Now you're questioning whether firewall rules should be in place and yeah. So task now we're bigger projects and I'll save the senior level, but I think I can continue with this type of analogy or this type of to see how your scope changes as you go on.

Pat: 18:45

And I must I must say here. We're at a break This is the first time this has ever happened on this show. Kyle is here. He's he's jumped in mid show I feel like I'm pausing a concert right now to get the guy that was hurt on the floor mosh pitting I got to stop the concert and point attention to the guy that's hurt on the floor. Hey Kyle. What's up, man?

Kyle: 19:05

You know, better late than never, I guess. So here we

Pat: 19:07

That's it. That's it. You got it. Now I'm happy to have you, man, talking some leadership. So this is the first on this show, a mid coming guests. So, or I should say a mid coming host, really guest host, whatever. I don't, whatever it is, what it is. So this we're going on the fly and that's what keeps this show fresh. So I love it. So that's all good, man. It's all good. So, yeah, I guess from the leadership perspective, again, the mid, you know, starting to ask those questions, starting to blend the The business and the tech talk sort of together and kind of making them one giant, you know, big happy family from a senior perspective or a team lead perspective. Alex, what are you thinking from a, what does leadership look like there? You starting to creep into, you know, try to take that next step is like, all right, can I cut it as a manager? Like, what does that look like?

Alex: 19:52

Well, certainly if you have a team lead, cause I feel like senior network engineer, or I say network and senior engineer and team lead, I, they're a little bit different. I feel like team lead, someone has designated you as the obvious choice to become manager at some point. So at both levels, especially team lead, I feel like at this point, now your mentality is changing a little bit. And I talked about it at the junior level about the idea of you're going to be focused on people more so now. So now, and your scope is bigger because both at the mid level and the junior level, we talked about the scope increasing. So now the, at the senior team lead, I still feel like you're. Probably you're still responsible for projects. You probably responsible for the more complicated ones. I think this is where you're going to start doing a lot more social engineering at this point, you're going to be a lot more involved with meetings with other department heads. And that just inherently turns into having a bigger voice and just. The direction that you're going to go with the company, at least technically. And this is probably also the first time where you're practically formally in charge of people, you know, especially as a team lead. So maybe in an org chart, they don't directly report to you, but they're coming to you. I mean, well, you're kind of like this middleman proxy between. The lower engineers and the actual manager, they're coming to you 1st, even if it's just technical, you know, they're not asking. Hey, do I need a day off? But even from a technical point of view, if they're coming to you, at least that gives you kind of an experience of kind of having people under your wing formally and. Your success, at least somewhat is going to be dictated by the success of the other people on your team. So when I look at the best team leads or senior engineers, they're bringing the juniors in the mid levels up. Like they're the ones whiteboard and making sure these guys know what they're doing, they're not making the same mistakes over and over again, and if they're taking those initiatives, I think they're showing, Hey, this is even more and more leadership potential there. And I mean, that's a role that I've taken on as a senior. Like, you know, that I liked teaching people. So I like to see that more and more. And I said it earlier, I'll say it again, but yeah, the idea that the success of the people underneath you and level that dictates your success. And that's a completely different change. Whereas, you know, mid level and junior, you know, what Bob does really doesn't impact you at team lead. It does at least to a

Pat: 22:34

It does. Yeah, I would agree. I would also say that, you know, part of that social engineering aspect of it is, you know, when something breaks, people come right to you and say, you know, what the F

Alex: 22:46

You're kind of like the face of the team at this point.

Pat: 22:48

right.

Alex: 22:49

people know your name and they associate you with. Software engineering, DevOps, network, whatever you happen to be.

Pat: 22:55

Yeah, indeed. You're always the, you're always the first one to know about something breaks and then your name is always mud until it's fixed. That's just the way it goes. At

Alex: 23:03

probably calling you first. It's just like, Oh, Hey, I got to talk to the team lead. What's going on guys.

Pat: 23:08

yeah, exactly. Yeah, I feel like that too. I feel like again, you're in more meetings. You're letting those those folks underneath you kind of, you know, work on the mechanics of the bus and you're basically driving it. They come to you when they're at sticking points, right? Say, Hey, I don't know how to do this. Or, Hey, what do you think about this design? You know, should I put it in this way versus that way? And then you kind of give your pros and cons to it, which is great. You know, but, and then at the same time, I think you need to look to your leadership to say, okay, look, you know, is it. Is it two years? Is it three years? Is it? What does that time frame look like to actually slap a manager title on me? And then I think it's up to them to be like, you know, to kind of nurture you and bring you along. It's just, you know, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. I've been at both places. But it's just, you know, but you know, people are coming to you and then you need to go to people. And then basically say, look, you know, what's a timestamp on this? You know, do you have a rough, you know, dart on a dartboard sort of thing? And obviously there's changes that can be made there, right? So, you know, if you buy a company that doubles your company total, you know, in size overnight, then I, that. That's a good sign, right? That sort of thing. You're going to need more bodies and whatnot, or I should say more definitive voices. But yeah you're, again, you're just kind of looking for that timeframe of like, look, you know, team lead, people are coming to me. I'm bringing them along, you know, nurturing them, you know, be in there, you know, be in their escalation point, blah, blah, blah. But there's also gotta be a, you know, there's also gotta be a piece of cheese at the end of your maze as well to try to do that.

Alex: 24:44

I'll say that rather than putting a timestamp on it I would push on your manager. Whoever you report to, to give you what you need to accomplish or what you need to see. So I don't want some arbitrary

Pat: 24:57

Good point

Alex: 24:57

what, cause I think that'll do two things. One, if you, if they give you a date, I feel like they could push that date back saying, Hey, it wasn't in the budget or I feel like that can get, I can keep getting pushed back without much to say, but if you ask them what you need to accomplish, I think that does two things. We want to get your manager to really answer that question. Cause I don't know if they always know that. So that'll get them thinking about what do I really need to see from you? And maybe it's eye opening to, And I think it should, that'll benefit you. I mean, that'll actually give you things you can work on. Whereas a date, maybe you're just kind of counting down the days or maybe it's like, I didn't even realize I really should be doing X, Y, and Z. And I think a good manager will help you. And I definitely think that you should go to your manager. Like you mentioned, I feel like if you don't, you're going to be your biggest proponent. You have to kind of push for yourself a little bit. So, I think that is good advice there. But. I mean, going back a little bit, part of the conversation is what you can do to kind of stand out. So in addition to just asking for it what do you think is fundamentally changing at this role? We talked about people are underneath you they're coming to you. I think at this point, going back to what I mentioned for juniors and mid levels, the scope is increasing. I feel like at a team lead, now you're at the point where you're really putting your stamp on the company. This is where I feel like you can lead. A real big initiative. So we talked about junior doing a firewall rule. Mid level firewall project just replacing firewalls or just where I feel like senior level radical transition. Hey, I want to transition to net automation at this point. We need to get more focused on that automation or something like that, where it's a real big undertaking with lots of components. And this is kind of where the team lead is kind of stepping in and really driving a big initiative like that. It's going to like fundamentally change the team.

Pat: 26:59

Yeah. I would agree.

Alex: 27:00

That's what I would like to see.

Pat: 27:03

yeah, I would agree. I would think a project, a major project, like even switching vendors, right? If you've been with a

Alex: 27:11

vendors.

Pat: 27:11

for doing X, right? And then you're going to another vendor to do the same thing, right? Like a firewall swap, right? You know, that kind of thing going from one vendor to another. That's a big one because he's the whole company. Rides through that. So, but I think even at the team lead level, I think the less that your name is in these meetings, the better, because that means you're doing your job correctly and nobody notices. Like that's the biggest thing for me. I just think, you know, pulling off massive projects like that was very little hiccups. I'm not saying it's easy or that there will be hiccups cause there, there definitely will be. It just depends on the size of the hiccup. That you're going to do because again, when you start changing things at that fundamental level you're ripping off multiple band aids at once or things that people that are there now may not even be privy to or why it was done that way again, you know, done that way where the bodies are buried and all of a sudden you yank out a firewall and put a new one in, you think you have everything right. And somebody goes, Oh, we can't do this. And this is a major. It's a major showstopper and you go, Oh shit. You know, that kind of thing. So then there's calls around it, P ones and the whole deal. And you're like, Oh man, this is not a good for the team. So I think if you can pull off projects with very little disruption or very little, you know. Your name and in other business players, mouths, if you will cause the only reason they'd be talking about you cause it's broke, right? So they don't talk about you if it goes well. So that's kinda, I think that's a major feather in folks caps. If you can do projects without very little You know, with, I should say with very little disruption and you basically transform things without people even, it's almost like you want to work in shadows, you know, like in the shadows because people don't know who you are. And the only reason the phone rings is because if something breaks, right, that sort of thing. So I think that shows a big piece of you're ready for that next step. If you could do projects sort of, you know, in secrecy, quote unquote,

Alex: 29:10

Okay. And I'll flip that comment a little bit and say that it might be even more telling how well they're showing their leadership skills based on how they act when things don't go correctly. Cause I feel like again, if we're going through the levels of the junior level engineer, if they don't, if they do something incorrectly and it causes an issue. The onus is probably documentation or they weren't trained properly. The onus probably doesn't go on the junior engineer in most cases. Mid level I think that's more maybe not something that would be documented and maybe that's not the excuse, but I think it's like they get a pass on it you know, it. Hey, learn from your mistake and you know, mistakes happen. It's okay. Senior level. You're like, you need to anticipate mistakes a little bit more. Not to say that they still don't happen. But it's like, Hey you should be pretty aware of the risks of this. If you did this and it caused an outage and you talk to other senior level engineers and you're like, you probably should have known this was a possibility. I think you get a lot less slack for issues at this level. And I think if you're showing good leadership skills, there's a few things that you have to come out of any, anytime you have a huge issue is you have to have a plan for it not to happen again. And I think you have to remediate it. So I feel like in the past when I've seen really good senior level engineers, they've identified what went wrong. They immediately told me what went wrong. They owned up to it right away. That's another good leadership skill. They don't beat around the bush. They're like, there's an issue. They're like five seconds later. That's on me. I'm working on it. I'll get back to you. And they come up out of the situation better where I feel like mid levels and juniors, they might not take that initiative. Maybe they should and that would be a great show of leadership, but I feel like at this level, it should be expected. And if you're not doing it, then not showing you're ready for the next level.

Pat: 31:10

Agreed. Kyle, you've had a couple various pieces of leadership changes where you're at in the education sector. You got anything to throw into this conversation?

Kyle: 31:18

Yeah, I mean, one thing that I've always, at least from the different levels that I've been on, is the praise that you get from somebody above you. I mean, that really goes a long way. But now at the same time, you know, the slap on the wrist that hurts just as bad. So,

Pat: 31:33

heavy handed.

Kyle: 31:33

yeah,

Pat: 31:34

right.

Kyle: 31:35

But I was thinking about when you guys were talking timelines, not really being, you know, arbitrary number throughout their kind of deal. How do you feel about milestones? Like breaking up the project in a chunks of like meeting this part of a project to get to the next step.

Alex: 31:57

Well, I think I was going to touch on that probably a little bit more when we get to management,

Kyle: 32:01

Okay.

Alex: 32:03

which would be the next level. So I won't go into it too

Kyle: 32:05

Okay.

Alex: 32:06

but I feel like a manager now you're fully on, you're probably not nearly as technical anymore. I mean, you may know it, but you're not hands on. I feel like at this point, obviously the success of your team is how your success is dictated and doing things like making sure the end goal is obvious. And if it's a six month end goal and milestones and sprints, this is where the agile methodology comes into play. And I think those giving people wins to keep them on track is really important. And I feel like there's just a very select few people that can deal with really long term projects and really see it. To completion, and those are probably the people that should be managers anyway, and we shouldn't expect them to be at that level yet. But again, we can talk about

Kyle: 32:53

Right, right, right.

Alex: 32:54

if we're done with the senior level, I can talk about more of that. But, um,

Pat: 33:01

a good point.

Alex: 33:03

well, since you joined a little late, you're any thoughts on how you see leadership a little bit differently from junior mid level to senior and because we kind of touched on what we kind of feel like what a junior level can. Do to kind of show leadership. It might be a little bubble of what's expected at junior and so on for mid level and so on for senior. So you have any thoughts, things that you've seen, things that you've done?

Kyle: 33:26

I mean, I've seen, and I guess have gone from a junior to a senior just over time doing the things having people under me and then kinda getting recognized for skills and whatnot and getting promoted, that kind of deal. Switching jobs, you know, and showing the The work ethic and whatnot to get there. Now it's just, you know, team of two of us. So it's my boss and I, so I don't really have anybody under me.

Alex: 33:57

So when you were just at a junior level, is there anything you can think of it you were doing that kind of maybe put you ahead? Leadership wise, kind of got you to the next level? I don't want you to put you on the spot. Maybe it's not.

Kyle: 34:14

probably just like always learning being the first person to kind of stand up to like, I'll do that, I'll take that on. I'll do whatever project or next thing is you know, and it was the good with the bad, you know, definitely. Might've jumped into things a little too overzealous kind of deal like that. And then like, I might've screwed that up, but you know, you learn from these kinds of things and a little bit of growing pains. But I think like you said to kind of be able to just own up to it and kind of graciously be like, yeah, that was me, but here's some solutions. Here's what I learned. That went a long way too.

Pat: 34:50

There you go. There you go.

Alex: 34:53

All right.

Pat: 34:53

Good recap there. So I guess management, I guess, Alex, you're going to kind of drive. Most of this.

Alex: 35:00

Right. We won't go into anything above manager. We'll just say straight up management, management, upper management, and you get the whole idea. So what's fundamentally different. So I already touched on it and. Obviously at this point, you're probably not very hands on. Although surprisingly in my last few jobs I've noticed that managers are more hands on than I thought. But even so, yeah, I said it just a little bit ago. The success, your success is dictated by the success of the people that you lead. And as a manager, that's, I think that's the fundamental change that has to happen. And to show that you're a good leader, To do that well is to make other people succeed in any way that you can. And I feel like we can probably spend hours talking about what that means, but I guess I'll talk about a few, cause we were touching on it earlier. I feel like you have to set clear examples. Lead by example. So if you want your team to I'm trying to think of a great example. If you want your team to be on time with delivering things, it might sound simple, but you shouldn't be if they ask you for something and you tell them you're going to do it next day, you shouldn't do it 3 days later. So setting an example like that, I think is important. We can also go on a big tangent talking about things like. Agile methodologies and things like sprints. But I think in summary, you can just say that a manager should set clear objectives. I think there's really nothing worse than not knowing what you're supposed to do as an engineer. Like what's the end goal? Why? And I think that's what it is. So you're not sure what you're going to do. And even what's worse is you think, you know, what you have to do. And then to find out that it's not. What you were supposed to do,

Pat: 36:54

bad. Oh God. It's so bad.

Alex: 36:57

And I feel like that's, if that's the case, that is 100% of the manager. You have to make sure not only that the objectives are clear, what you want is clear, but that they understand it. If it's clear to you, it doesn't mean it's clear to everybody else. And yeah, that's something that I feel like you have to do clear objectives. When Kyle talked about milestones, I like the idea of turning projects. Especially long ones into manageable chunks, I think, and I think that's kind of where the world's going. This whole idea of just cost and improvement those pipelines, constant improvement pipelines. Everyone's all about that now. And I think it makes the most sense and people want to be recognized and they want to know that they're making progress. So if you can take a big project and turn into. I use two week chunks in my in my job today and very clear tasks and milestones to complete. And I think it's just, it's a way to celebrate success. It's a way to understand if a project is getting behind well before the time that, you know, it's actually due. And I think it bodes well for just beyond the immediate team. You know, you can show progress without having a final product pretty easily when you do things like that. And I won't take up all the time. I can

Pat: 38:14

No, this is good.

Alex: 38:15

talk about this a little bit more, but even if you guys aren't in management roles today, you've certainly had managers. So, what are your thoughts without getting yourselves in trouble? So maybe focus on a few years back, maybe what are some of the things that stood out to you as managers showing excellent leadership skills? What are the things that resonated with you?

Pat: 38:39

Go ahead, Kyle. What do you got?

Kyle: 38:40

right. One of the things that always, I dunno if it's a morale boost or if it's just whatever, but it's like having a manager that'll get in the muck with you, you know, they're not above it. They're not too good for it. They're not like, like, Hey, this is going to suck. Let's do it. And that was always. You know what I mean? Like, especially if it's something, maybe it's your first time doing it or something like that. And you're like, ah, this is going to suck. And they're like, all right, we'll do it together. And they hop in there with you. Amazing.

Alex: 39:15

Okay. Yeah. What are your thoughts? Pat?

Pat: 39:18

Yeah, I would say that's a big one. I've had one or two that really. Can, you know, can kind of get in the, into the bits and bytes, if you will depending on what the issue is I've had quite a few of them that, that can't just cause they didn't understand what I did day to day, but there was one or two that stick out that, that can really That can really kind of, you know, go toe to toe for what I'm doing. The other thing too, is I think a good leader from, or, you know, leadership perspective is, you know, and again, it kind of comes back to, you know, the people above you are supposed to quote unquote, look out for you. Now, what, you know, a lot of places it doesn't happen, but there's been one or two places that. That it is happening, you know, that, that did happen for me. I also think that they should definitely give praise to the team where it's due, but not just within the team walls. I think it needs to happen either at their level or. The level above them, because I think the technical teams sort of get lost in the sauce sort of thing to, to various degrees. I think people forget about various it teams just cause things work and they forget they kind of exist. So when a big project does go well, or when an outage happens outside of. You know, a human error, you know, and they got it fixed within a decent time, you know, whatever, then, you know, then I think praise needs to be there at the, that the director level or whatever, however your company structures, I think it needs to be there and not just, Hey, good job guys. And, you know, kind of lives within the team walls and just the morale of that, just. Yeah we know we're a good team. Like, you know, who you're working with day in and day out, you know, if you can count on a colleague or not to kind of get the job done we kind of know what we're about. We need other people to know what we're about and kind of give that pat on the back or that at a boy, you know, kind of thing outside of our walls. So I think the best, I think one of the. Better leadership qualities is having your boss or your direct report. Speak your team in a good light at their level or above, depending on what the topic is.

Alex: 41:34

Yeah. And I made the comment before where it would be difficult for me to join a company where the tech work isn't product that makes the company money. So what I mean by that is when I worked at PlayStation and work at Disney streaming now the technical people are the people that make the product that makes the money, at least. With Disney streaming, obviously the engineers that keep the platform up are making money at PlayStation, the same deal where you guys work in education and financials, or I think that's really stressing the need to kind of provide recognition beyond the team, because you can get lost, I feel like, because at that point, you know, you probably only get notified or probably only get some type of mentioned when there's an issue. Cause then. Everyone knows who you are, but it's probably,

Pat: 42:26

Yeah.

Alex: 42:27

In the same way that educate you, like, you know, Hey, we can't do our classwork or, Hey our users can't log into our banking platform or whatever it might be. And yeah, I, and think that's in those particular situations, I think it's really important that, right. Your credit, your recognition expands past the team. So good point there.

Pat: 42:50

I think that's a good one. If I could just kind of touch on that and then we'll move on to the next topic, but I think I think what you said about having technology drive, what. The business is selling. I think that's a big one, especially in the tech industry, because we're all, we all have that mindset that we're just kind of nerds at heart and we want things to work, that we want to work in cool places and be that sort of shining light. If you will I think evolve was kind of like that for us, Alex, they sold. Technology, right? They were a avoid platform. So things that we did matter, right? That kind of thing. We were kind of the pillars of that, you know, we, as a collective but, you know, we were the pillars of that company. And I think that makes I think it makes it a little, I think the morale is the difference maker there. And I've worked at some places that we didn't like tech really didn't do any of. That like, it didn't drive the business forward. It was there to sort of protect what the business was and not drive it or innovate it forward. I think that definitely makes a difference as far as mindset or morale, you know, things of that nature. And the one thing I that what I mentioned earlier about the, you know, the company just protecting what the company had at that same company. They had they had almost like a self, portal kind of thing where like, if you worked with somebody and you thought somebody did a good job in your eyes, blah, blah, blah, you gave them like a thumbs up or a one up kind of thing. And then as you know, you got to a certain number of those recognitions or shout outs, whatever to call them, then you were, you know, then you got like an Amazon gift card or, you know, whatever, like you could spend your quote unquote points on. Whatever, you know, however far up the ladder you want to go and, you know, spend it on, you know, that kind of thing. So there was like almost like a self recognition system within that company to really kind of give each other kudos, if you will and rather than waiting for management to do it or, you know, whatever. So I thought that was kind of cool too. It was almost like a self governing, you know. Hey, we take care of our own. I can give you kudos because you worked on that project last week, or, you know, I had an issue and you figured it out pretty quickly. Here's a kudos. And then I, you know, I basically turned those kudos into 25 gift card, Amazon or, you know, whatever that kind of thing. So there's different things you can do from a morale perspective. And, you know, if you're not going to get it from management above you, then it's a neat way to kind of have like a self sustaining. System to kind of, you know, treat your own kind of thing. So I thought that was, I thought that was neat. So I always enjoyed that piece of that. The company that, you know, what they had set up there, the system. So that was cool. So anyway, I thought I'd throw that out there that it does make a difference that you know, what you're working on or the business that you're serving, you have to be interested in it, at least to some degree or else that it kind of just becomes this, you're just a cog in a wheel and you're just kind of slapping away day in and day out. And it's like, Oh, this is, you know, it's kind of like a drudge. So I don't know. That's my two cents.

Alex: 45:53

No, sounds good. And I know you mentioned going to another topic. I will mention just 1 of the things that I'd appreciate from some of the managers in my past. I'm curious what your thoughts on this too. I know it can get a little tricky when. Managers almost become friends and that relationship can make, you know, nepotism comes into play then. But I always, and I like when managers make seem like they make a conscious effort to want to know who I am outside of work. And I'm just kind of curious what your thoughts on that. Like I want people, I appreciate when a manager is asking me like, Hey when they remember that. A big golfer or something like that. And they remember overhearing me say I was going to go play golf over the weekend and they would, you know, ask me how I, how it was, things like that. So what are your thoughts on managers who kind of blur that line of being friends? Is that something that you think is tough to negotiate? You think that's something that you look for in a manager?

Pat: 46:59

I'll let you. No, the golf reference included there, tee it off.

Alex: 47:03

Oh, that's good.

Pat: 47:05

But

Kyle: 47:06

I like it. It adds a little layer of, like, personability, I guess, to it.

Pat: 47:12

humanity.

Kyle: 47:13

well, you know what I mean? Like, because I've definitely worked at places before, and it's just like, you clock in, you clock out, like, That's it. You do your tasks and it's like, you know, see you tomorrow. So kind of having some human interaction and I don't know, somebody might actually care about you that you work with or at least show some sort of interest. I mean, it makes you feel a little better as like a team player. Makes a little more or at least for me, it made me a little more invested in wanting to do better and not just like come in, sit there, do my eight hours or whatever and just be like. Oh, that's it. You know, I'm not staying extra. I'm not doing anything else. I'm not, you know, just and we're gone kind of deal like that. So I think it's nice. You know, when they're, when they actually showed general concern for task hobbies, family, you know, things like that, and you can kind of bond, I guess a little bit on a more than just a, like a professional level.

Alex: 48:12

Yeah, and before Pat chimes in, I'll just mention that one of the common things I read about and it seems like common sense is that this concept of employees want to feel like they trust their manager and they want to feel safe in their role. And I feel like that's really difficult to do if they're not being personable, it seems like it'd be difficult for me to trust someone who. Has no idea who I am outside of nine to five. And I just feel like when they know me at a personal level I feel a bit more safe in my role. It's just like, it's easier to fire someone, you know, nothing about, I know that's probably a horrible way to look at it, but I just, it's just, like, you know, me. Right. And I feel like, it also makes you feel a little safer because. If they know you and you make a mistake, which is inevitably going to happen, I feel like they can look past it cause they know you as a person, assuming you're not a shit person, but,

Pat: 49:12

Yeah

Alex: 49:13

yeah. So I'll add that before so Pat on you.

Pat: 49:19

I think that's a good point. I think I think there is room for a little bit of personality there. I've had some managers that are some managers that are, and actually kind of going back to, you know, You know, good leadership qualities and whatnot, especially for like the team lead. I think being a little personal is important. To that kind of shows you're ready for the next level, right? Cause I think there is some truth to the personality. You know, what are you doing this weekend? You know, that sort of thing, you know, but to me and I've made friends with all my bosses. Just cause just, I had the personality that I do. I'd like to think I'm relatively outgoing and people kind of respond to that. But I, you know, but talking to them. Personally and saying, Hey, I'm doing this weekend, or, Hey, I'm doing that. Or they know my kids names, stuff like that. I'm cool with the other side of that coin is having them follow me on social media. I don't know if that's a decent idea just because you know them, but do you really know them that well to, you know, but there again, like if you're kind of putting out a hot take on social media, is that the best place for it? Probably not, but like, you know. But I mean, in today's social media age, I mean, these companies have to have built in HR policies around your social media accounts. So, you know, that's, I, me personally, I don't think I put too much spice out there in the social media world, but I can see people that do. And if I'm a boss following this person and they're making waves for either good or bad, you know, mostly bad, cause you're representing a company and people know what you do. That gets, that's where it gets a little spicy, but on, on like a team's chat, Hey, I'm barbecuing this weekend or Hey, I'm taking the kids to blah, blah, blah. That's no problem. Like, you know, that's cool. But as far as the social media thing, that's kind of where I have a little bit of a like, you know, I don't know. And especially does it come into play after you've left that job, you have an old boss following you on social media. Like, I just think there's nuance there and I don't know if that's good or bad. So, but yeah, me personally, I'm a, I tend to think I'm an outgoing guy and, you know, I've had relationships with all my bosses and they've been. Relatively strong outside of one that I can think of. But but the rest of them are all, you know, decent. And you tend not to talk to them after you've left or after you've, you know, moved on from that, you know, space. And I can't think of one that I still talk to. Like regularly that you know, whatever but but yeah, I don't think a little personal you know, hey, how you doing and kind of get you get to know you outside of the nine to five You know dredge that you're that you could potentially find yourself in hurts at all I think it I think it only helps in that aspect and I think it helps when you're kind of doing the same Things and you're kind of, you know, cause we've all had terrible jobs. So like, if you're in a terrible job together, that's just a bond that you have, you know, outside of work is you're experiencing the same things. So I think that that helps too. So there you go. I try not to get myself in trouble, you know,

Kyle: 52:27

nothing like a little trauma bonding to make the team stronger.

Pat: 52:30

That's right. Who's your therapist? I need a new one. Laughter. Anyway, so, I hope that was a good answer. But yeah. What kind of couch does he have? Mine's real uncomfortable. Laughter. Oh man.

Alex: 52:45

all right and actually a bit further along than I thought we'd be. So I was considering just kind of going through a couple specific questions. I had no real structure to it. I'm just throwing it out there to you to get your thoughts on a few things, but is there anything you definitely wanted to cover in this particular episode?

Pat: 53:11

No, I think I think we've done a decent job at leadership and what to look for and trying to not to get ourselves in trouble with stuff we don't want to look for or that you don't look for

Kyle: 53:22

I

Pat: 53:22

and or the bad things that we've experienced, but now go right ahead. We'll see where this lands.

Alex: 53:27

Okay well, you mentioned early on that I've been listening to a lot of audio books on my trips to work and I tried putting down some notes to some of the topics that were covered in these books and just want to get, I guess, both of your thoughts on how important they are to you in your manager. So one of the things that comes up in almost all these books, because a lot of these books are focused on technical leaders. Specifically, as opposed to any other, you know, business leader, so on. So how important is it to you that your technical leader be a really technical guy say practically a senior level engineer in their skillset, is that important to you? Is it a deal breaker? Are there negatives to it that you've come across? Well, I guess I'll start with you, Pat, is it a deal breaker?

Pat: 54:25

I'll kick this one off. I think to a degree it is, I think I think it's important to have your boss know what you do. On a day to day basis in order to actually manage you the right way because I've had bosses that are really good at that because they've been where I've been and they were again, they're just bumped or whatever. And I've also had bosses that have. This is zero clue. Like what I do, like they think they know what I do. I couldn't put them in front of a terminal or I couldn't put them in front of a switch or a router or anything like that. They'd be lost. So to me it's, and this is probably more of a knock on me. But like, once I figure you out, like if you're good or not, then sort of my mindset changes. I don't say a respect level, not on like a personal level, but like from a. Professional level, the respect level changes in that aspect of like, okay, you're leading me, but you don't have any, you don't have any clue on what I'm actually doing for you to make you look good or whatever, that kind of thing. So, I think that. It matters to me you not to be like, like, and if you don't have the technical level that I do, and you're sort of aware of that, then that's okay. But then I would suspect, I would expect you to take my suggestions and saying, Hey, we should be doing this versus this. And I need you to fight for this because here are my reasons. If you don't do that, then Like, what's my role here? Like, cause you clearly don't understand it or need to, or like, you don't understand to take the business to the next level or what feel of need that the business is asking for, then like, what's my purpose here? Like you, you just kind of. Letting this thing just roll or like, there's no like clear direction to it. So, I, but I do think it's important to be at least somewhat on par if not just a tiny bit ahead of the people that you manage, because then you're all talking the same language and nobody sort of gets frustrated with I'm doing all this technical stuff and I'm taking it to the boss to get approved for money and they're saying no, because they don't understand it.

Alex: 56:36

And I will add that I'm guessing that it's more likely in the smaller of the company, the more likely this is to happen, the bigger the company, the more likely you're going to have VP levels all the way up to a certain technology. Like at Disney, there's multiple vice presidents of network engineering, just to put it in perspective, but in 50 people, and you may have a manager of IT who has like. Networking and cloud guys on their team. And maybe they came from doing nothing but AWS administration and VM administration. They really don't know much about networking, but they're in that role just because of where it's at. So it's not always just like a business leader becomes a tech leader. I think it's more likely like smaller company, a tech leader becomes a tech leader of multiple disciplines. And they only have. You know, really experienced with one. But yeah, I guess going to Kyle, what are your thoughts?

Kyle: 57:33

Mean, I've I've had both where somebody's been moved up and then I'm Get kind of put under them because we work like the same field and super technical. If I get stuck on something, you know, I have somebody to bounce ideas off or get help or whatnot. And I've also had, you know, completely the opposite where I was put under somebody and they're like what are you working on today? And I explained it to him. They're like, no, no idea what that means. I don't know what you're saying. It's completely foreign. And I was like, okay, well, just, yeah. I'm going to do a good job, you know, and get it done. But it was nice cause they would, like Pat was saying, take my suggestions. If there was something that needed to get done they could run an interference or do something like that, or, you know, talk. And actually that person would always give me a lot of praise. I, and I don't know if it was just because like. They were not very technical in the things that I was doing. So they would always be like, wow, that was great. You know, maybe it just seemed extra awesome, even though it was like just as part of the norm. Both have been fine. It just took a little like shifting of gears to kind of figure out how to work with management that was technical versus non technical kind of deal. They're both fine. It's just, you know, how how you approach everything is different.

Alex: 58:55

Okay. So sounds like Kyle could, he could work with either. Pat's leaning towards, I'd prefer they be a bit technical in

Pat: 59:06

yeah, maybe that's just my mentality

Kyle: 59:08

Right. Um, I guess

Pat: 59:09

my stubbornness, but yes, that is correct.

Alex: 59:12

Right. Yeah, I would say that I'm leaning towards Pat. I want them to be technical. I won't say they have to be as technical as me in the, like the specific discipline that I'm in. But I feel like if you are a leader of three different disciplines, you should at least be a junior level understanding of all of them. I would prefer you're kind of like a mid level and you're a senior in like one of those disciplines and that I feel like. You need to be able to understand what they're doing and be able to respond to questions. Not necessarily a question of like, how do I troubleshoot this? But enough to understand a we should go with this vendor because they do X, Y, and Z better. And you understand enough where they can explain it to you without having to, you know, take a three hour PowerPoint to do it. So that's kind of where I land in that whole thing. And I've been lucky enough where. Pretty much every job that I've ever had, there's always seems to be a manager that really knew what he was doing. So I think I've been pretty fortunate with that. Okay. Like I said, there's just several questions, a set of bullet points that came up in all these different books I was reading. So just get your thoughts on it. The other thing, same idea, is it a deal breaker or not? What are your thoughts? On a leader acting like the stereotypical leader. So in other words, do you need a leader that can get up there and speak like someone that you can respect? I mean, can you be led by an introvert? I guess. Have you ever come across that? Is it difficult? And. all comes back to just communication. Yeah. I mean, it's such a generic term. I wanted to add a little bit to it, but do you feel like your technical leader has to be able to get up and give a speech for lack of a better term? Do they need to command the audience? I'm going to start with you, Pat, or maybe have you ever come across a leader where they seem a little gun shy on zooms, or you don't think that they could rally the troops if they needed to.

Pat: 1:01:28

No, I don't, I, most of my bosses have been. Decent speakers and they all had different, you know, levels of technicality of, you know, you know, in, in regards to my role, but no, I don't I don't think I'd have a problem with it again. I think you know, the older I get and the longer in the tooth in this industry, I get I prefer to be a sort of, you know. Fly on the wall and just, you know, a department in the back, you know, in the shadows sort of thing. So if people aren't talking about you, that means you're doing a decent job. So I don't need somebody to go up and be like, Hey, look at my department, look at what we're doing, and then rattle off a bunch of technical stuff. Cause you're going to lose 90% of that audience that isn't technical. So, you know, their eyes are going to glass going to glaze over and, you know. What kind of, you know, look at their phones, but no, I don't necessarily need a person to kind of bang that drum. You know, I'm more of a team guy to be like, look, you know, I know what my team's doing. We all know what we bring to this table. We don't need, we don't need somebody to go up there and bang a drum to people that. You know, that don't understand what we're doing or don't know we exist and then kind of force feed that. So I don't think that would be necessary for me or even bothered me. Like if they did that, I don't think it would bother me. I just think it brings more unneeded attention to things that don't need to be brought attention to, I don't know.

Alex: 1:02:56

Okay. Interesting thoughts. So how about you, Kyle? Again, kind of like a leader. How important is it for the person that leads you? To have the communication skills to really command an audience to really, when they talk people, listen, I mean, it's just kind of like maybe hard to put in words that I think, you know what I mean? So there's just some people that they have that and others that don't

Kyle: 1:03:25

it's for me, at least more of. Their work ethic and what they produce, then it would actually being for them to be able to explain it to somebody. So like, they're like, Oh, we're going to hand this to this guy and we know what's going to get done. But he may not be able to like really kind of go into the detail or the depths or want to tell everybody, but the product will show itself and the team will get it done. That would be enough for me. You know, I don't need bells and whistles and somebody to really be a, an entertainer or, you know, great. And in meetings or whatever, it'd be like, Nope, we got it. We'll handle it. And. Done.

Alex: 1:04:06

gotcha. Well, I have a few other of these questions, but before I keep going on, I guess I'll just stop there. Is there anything that you guys thought of as a question that you want to get our opinions on? Otherwise I can keep rattling off until we get to the hour mark.

Pat: 1:04:22

This is no, I'm good. I think I think what we talked about earlier is kind of where my head is, as far as, you know, what that time frame looks like and, you know, and you said, no, it's not necessarily time it's, you know, it's markers and kind of what people are showing. So, no, that, that's it's good for me.

Alex: 1:04:37

Okay. So some of these are obvious. So it's not really a situation where. Is it a deal breaker for you or not? So I'll just rattle off a few and then get your guys thoughts on what you think is the most Important of the ones that you know mentioned and maybe we can talk about it some more so these are just some of the things that I highlighted from these books of things that you poor leaders do and Just get your thoughts on One I guess if you've come across it or two like how big of a deal they actually are we touched on this a little bit but Something that poor leaders do is they lack a vision or the ability to communicate that vision or that direction. So that kind of goes back to the people underneath. You just don't know what you're expected to do. So I'll stop there. I'll name a few others and we'll get your thoughts on which of these are the most important. They delegate well. So this goes into the whole idea of micromanagement a little bit, I think. The concept that they delegate well, by doing a couple of things that they accomplish 1 they delegate work to people based on their skill sets to the degree they take into account what they're looking what these different people are. Interested in doing so I think it's a balancing act. So the idea that if you got six people on the team and the person who's the best at doing something hates doing it, maybe that doesn't always mean that they're the ones that should get the work. And also, and this is kind of a touchy subject too. And I'll stop after this one, but what are your thoughts? On a manager, and this would be a technical manager and actually giving themselves engineering tasks. And does that ever frustrate you or is that something that you appreciate? And I think there could be good and bad reasons for that. I love the idea, like Kyle mentioned earlier, we got rolling up their sleeves and just doing what needs to be done. I think it's a terrible idea when a manager does something because he feels like he's the one that could do it the best and doesn't trust other people to do it. So. We'll stop there and get your thoughts on those three. So lack of direction, delegation ability. And I think that's it. Those are the two things. Oh, delegation micromanagement coming into it a little bit. So let's get your thoughts on that, Pat, on those few things.

Pat: 1:07:09

Yeah, that's a good one. The most important one to me, I think, geez I'll tell you the least important to me, the least important to me is giving. The manager technical tasks. I've had folks I've had people above my manager, like just go and say, Hey, I want, you know, basically make decisions that, that affected my department's projects and then completely had it backwards and we had to like start from scratch. So, so, you know, I think. And that was a VP. So I think at a VP level, it's they're way too up there to actually like giving people direction, like, as far as like, Hey, like third party vendors. Hey, I want this here, or I want this here. Like, no, it's not your decision. Like you're not in this networking soup day to day. Like you don't even, like you made that decision in a vacuum and set us back weeks. So I don't care about people. You know, managers or my direct report doing engineering tasks. Cause that could always be

Alex: 1:08:14

you would prefer that they not do it when they get to manager level.

Pat: 1:08:18

Correct. Yeah. I prefer them not to, I mean, hand it to me or I'll hand it to somebody. We're always, you know, me and the team are always closer to the sort of vibe or the whole network as a 50, 000 foot view. And we kind of know how the soup to nuts work. I would rather one of us handle it then, you know. They handle it and then we have to redo it anyway, because they forgot steps, you know, two through six, you know,

Alex: 1:08:45

So, what about a situation where you guys really in the weeds? So, say you're understaffed, you got deadlines that, you know, you're not going to make. Do you still, do you think you would still prefer the manager to stay out of it? Or if it is a technical manager, you think in those cases, you appreciate them stepping in and taking work? Or do you just feel like that's a, it's a line you shouldn't cross and it's just, it gets tough.

Pat: 1:09:09

well, I think if I know the manager well enough if I've kind of seen him or her work before I would almost like, I'd almost frame it to be like, okay, I need help with this, but only take them to a certain step, like, Okay. Give them what you know they can handle. So it's almost like you're managing your manager at that level. Like, because, you know, don't give them A to Z because they can't do L to Z. You

Alex: 1:09:34

milestones. Check with me after each of

Pat: 1:09:37

yeah, pretty much. So do the A to, you know, A to D and let me take it from D. Because I know. D is gonna have to, is like where the intricacies are and the nuance. Like, I want to be able to do that because I know the network better than that person does. So I just don't wanna be working like backwards at that point. Like, I don't wanna get to the end of a project or a milestone and then be like, oh no, we gotta do this, we gotta do it this way. And it just causes more work. So I almost would like to give them what I know they could handle that A helps me out and B doesn't go too far, so then I have to rework it.

Alex: 1:10:13

Okay. Fair enough. All right.

Pat: 1:10:16

The other part of that is now I was gonna say what I think is what I think is most important to me is probably probably a clear vision. Like I could deal with the micromanaging and I've had a lot of managers that micromanaging just can't let go of the technical space. They just can't let go of the technical stuff. Like they've been a technical person all their career and now they're just. They're like, Oh yeah, I'm a manager that you slap a manager title on them. And they still can't like get out of the way. So like,

Alex: 1:10:46

but I just, I really interested in what you're doing and how you're doing it. You can deal with that?

Pat: 1:10:52

yeah, exactly. You can push the buttons, but I want to like have say in how you push the buttons. And I'm just like, Oh God.

Alex: 1:10:58

How hard or soft you push the buttons.

Pat: 1:11:01

Yeah, it's kind of weird, but like, not having a clear picture of what your department is doing or where the, what goals are for this year or for whatever the budget year is, that's very frustrating because you just feel like you're floating in space, like you have no clear, like. Are we replacing firewalls this year? What are our projects? What are we doing? Like, there's no clear set, Hey, this is what you're going to be judged upon when KPIs come due at the end of the year, like. It's just, it's very hard to deal with that. And then, like you said, you think, you know, you have an idea or you just kind of take initiative because it almost comes back to that, like, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission sort of thing. So you sort of take the bull by the horns and then they go no. This is what I want. And you're like, Oh shit. I just wasted all the time. And because, you know, they can't make a decision or they, whatever, like they, they have a terrible time communicating that. And it's just not a good, just not a good thing. Like they just rolled into meetings. They're there because they have to be, it's on their schedule, but they're constantly looking at their watch, like on their hand, like on the, you know, their Apple watch that keeps buzzing with email. Like I've had people like that. I've had managers like that. It's like, this is the absolute worst. And then they have the, you know, anyway, I'll cut it there. But yeah, that's, I prefer not. I prefer to have a clear picture. Oh God. I prefer to have a clear picture cause then you just float in space. And that's just, it just, it's such a weird feeling just to kind of exist. And then you're just doing like, you're just doing break, fix stuff and like ticket work all day. And then. You know, you look busy, but cause you're fixing people's problems, but the needle never moves because you never have any time for anything else. Cause there's no vision.

Alex: 1:12:44

So that's interesting. So I guess micromanaging doesn't bother you that much. At least you can deal

Pat: 1:12:51

Don't get me wrong. It does. Yeah, I could deal with it. It does bother the shit out of me. I could just deal with it.

Alex: 1:12:56

You you would prefer that managers want to get that level, stay out of actual code, probably the most generic term I can put. And it's most important to you to have a manager that. Makes it very clear. This is our team's goals. If you do this, hey. You've done your job well. Okay.

Pat: 1:13:20

right. But on the other side of that, just. From a 50, 000 for you, I'm not a fan of the whole, Hey, let's do KPIs in January, and then look at those same KPIs in December because it never is never a straight line like that. It's always something didn't come in for budget. We couldn't get this project done because of business needs. They weren't ready budget, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm not a huge fan of putting lines in the sand. In January, and then being solely judged and raised and all that kind of stuff that comes with it in December, because the six out of your eight KPIs are completely non, they're avoided because of the way the business went over that year's timeframe.

Alex: 1:14:03

sure. KPI in January is replaced the entire firewall infrastructure, but they finally arrived December 4th and

Pat: 1:14:11

Correct. What the fuck? Yeah, exactly.

Alex: 1:14:16

All right. And then Kyle, on to you. What are your thoughts on those three micromanagement managers that actually do the actual work, hands on work and clear cut expectations and vision.

Kyle: 1:14:30

Definitely the clear cut expectations, vision, communication, completely key because I've definitely. Being on the receiving end of somebody be like, yeah, just kind of want this, you know, with really no direction or communication. And then you're halfway in the project and they're like, well, no, not like that. And you're like, well, you didn't give me any direction. What are you talking about? Uh, being micromanaged, that is a pain in the ass. And it is the absolute worst. Like if I get stuck or need help, I'll come to you. Don't be needling me with questions and like, how are we doing? How was it looking? Yeah, that's. It's aggravating and it's just distracting.

Pat: 1:15:09

That's a big one. Yep.

Kyle: 1:15:11

The technical manager gets in as long as like they have a good track record. I would say I'm okay with it, but if they're just constantly like sticking their hands in and twisting knobs and twiddling dials and just fucking everything up, like, no, just keep your hands out of it, but if you're competent, you could do it and like, it's helpful, that's fine. You could jump into, you know, we can work as a team. Maybe I'll learn something. Maybe you'll learn something. Everybody learned something, whatever. But If it's just going to be a pain in the ass that's going to cause more work for me, then don't.

Alex: 1:15:45

Okay. All right. And I guess I'll give my two cents on it.

Pat: 1:15:49

Yes.

Alex: 1:15:50

I

Kyle: 1:15:51

Heh.

Alex: 1:15:52

think I echo what Kyle said. I guess I'm biased cause I am a manager that. And I still feel like I'm pretty technical. So I'm definitely in that camp where I don't mind when managers come in and work on stuff. It's something that maybe I should think about a little bit more. It's something I do a lot. Disney today, but I kind of feel like that it's what's been asked of me. So I don't feel like I'm doing it just because I want to, although I really do. But at this point I'm kind of, I almost treat myself like a part time engineer for good or bad. So that means when I'm kind of delegating work for the team we have so much work that we can, that needs to be done, that there's no such thing as like, I couldn't assign things for people to do, there's just a whole list of things to do. So when I'm doing my two week plannings, I give everyone, at least in my head, I try to give everyone like what I feel is about 20 hours of work because I knew, I know things come up and I know things take longer than expected. And I also know that. You know, things break, you might have to put out a fire or two. So I give everyone the equivalent of about 10, 20 hours of work. And I give myself about 10. it sounds like Pat would hate that idea, but yeah micromanagement. I feel like that's kind of a, it goes back to trust. If I feel like they're micromanaging because they don't. Trust my skillset, then that's tough. And if I take the personal side out of it, I just feel like any manager, if you're at the point where you're micromanaging people, then I think something needs to change. Either you need to trust people and see whether or not they truly can get something done. Or if they're consistently not doing what you expect them to do, then micromanaging isn't the issue. The issue is either you need to give them better resources. Or I'll just come out and say it. Sometimes you have to get rid of people. Maybe as the manager on the call, that's a tough thing to say. But 1 thing that I've, I do believe is that 1 of the ways you can alienate good employees is if you tolerate a poor 1 and I think that we sugarcoat that sometimes. And I just feel like, cause I'm fine with saying that's another real common book, extreme ownership. The idea that leadership should take ownership of issues. And I think some people say like a leader can't really take ownership for everything that fails because there's things that are legitimately not his fault. And, you know, I guess the rebuttal to that is as well. In almost every instance, they could have done something differently. And if it truly comes back to poor performance from. An employee, either one, you're not remediating it, which I still feel like they're taking ownership to fix the problem. But if it continues to be a problem, I think it's on the manager of the leader because they haven't corrected the employee situation. If you have a person on your team that consistently messes up, then as a leader, I think you need to remove that person on the team. So that's how it comes back to being on the leader's ownership there, but I'm kind of digressing it. A little bit there.

Pat: 1:19:04

This is good. This is therapy. I love it.

Alex: 1:19:08

Well, I mean, maybe that's a good segue into another question. What are your thoughts on how managers should approach poor performing employees and have you come across that where, again, we're not naming names, but have you had a situation where you just had a person on the team where you just felt like. Even if you like the person where you're just like this person's just not working out and I don't see it working out. I think a change needs to happen. And maybe you have more respect for leadership if they it.

Pat: 1:19:40

Yeah, I think that's a big one. I have had things like that. And again, maybe this is just me and my mentality, but I just feel if a colleague isn't performing and they're constantly coming to you and kind of what I said a bit ago about the same, you know, same questions over and over, you know, every two weeks or whatever it is, it's like, yeah the components are different, but it's the same underlying issue. They just need to apply the same logic. Yeah. With a new set of variables. It's literally the same thing. It's over and over. And it's like, I feel like I'm a broken record and yeah, but I think you're spot on with the whole, you're going to ruin good employees by tolerating and putting up with the bad ones that, that happens quite a bit. And that's happened to me at multiple places. And it's just like, maybe this is just me thinking like nobody works as hard as I do, you know, that kind of thing, you know, it's it is, it's very stressful because then that basically then. To help that person who should not be a junior or literally in your department. And then most last couple of jobs I've had, I've been senior everywhere I've been. So they're not juniors. They're not mid levels. They're, you know, they're. You're in your department or your colleagues, they're coming to you about a problem consistently, but the same problem, that means they're taking your time away from what you're doing. And you're almost doing the work of two people. And again, that just leads to burnout, you know, things of that nature. So, yeah, I think leaders do need to take that by the, you know, the bull by the horns to use a corny cliche and be like, look, like either you got to put them on some sort of like, it sounds weird, but like. Like probation list or like, say, Hey, you got to meet this goal by this are you going to work on this trait by, by this date or whether that's you know, kind of having a heart to heart or, you know, come to Jesus moment as it's, you know. Commonly called being like, look, you either got to, you know, perform or get out. And a lot of, you know, some industries are more cutthroat than others. Right. It just is what it is. So, yeah, but I think leaders today, managers are in a call. I think this whole, I don't want to get myself into much trouble, but like, I think this whole, like. Everyone, you know, comes together and it's hard to, it's hard to be an individual when you're constantly talked about in a team environment and it's like, okay, yeah, the team makes it go, but like, you got to look at the, you got to look at the metrics within the team. If you have a team of 10 people and five of them are pushing the bus up the hill at all times. The other five are just kind of waving from inside the bus. It's just like, Hey, how you doing? The other guy thinks it's like, oh man. So it's just, yeah, I think they need to have those tough conversations. And I don't, you know, most of the places that I've been, I don't want to say sweep it under the rug, but they just, they don't come at it head on and it just doesn't do well. The longer it goes, the more it kind of stinks.

Alex: 1:22:42

Yeah. I mean, I probably wouldn't go as far as to say like the, it's only the team's only as strong as the weakest link. I mean, that might be a bit harsh, but I do really feel like poor employees bring down the better ones. And some, I'll get Kyle's opinion before I go on too much of a tangent, but again, talking about things that I've read recently, another thing that I've read that I think will change my opinion on or change how I operate going forward in a management role is more often than not, the poorest employees are the people that the managers that consume the majority of their time And in this book that I'm reading, it's about John Maxwell. He's a real big leadership guru guy, but he says that you should spend 80% of your time on your best employees. So he's saying flip that on your side. It's just like, you'll get your biggest return if you spend your time and energy on your best employees, when in reality, the majority of the time, people just spend the majority of their time on their poorest employees in an attempt to get them up to the level of their best employees. But in reality, you should try to take your best employees and grow them. Cause they're going to, and more than likely give you a much bigger return than your poorer employees and your poorer employees. Not to say that you let them defend for themselves, but to a degree, I feel like you have to, they have to show up at some point

Pat: 1:24:12

Yeah.

Alex: 1:24:14

I mean, it's harsh to say, but at some point it's not worth your time and you gotta make a change. All right. So, Kyle, some heavy thoughts there. Not the nicest topic, but

Pat: 1:24:28

Yeah, follow that up, Kyle. Get out there. Come on, bro.

Kyle: 1:24:31

I mean, actually, what you said, though, sounds pretty interesting, but I want to say it almost seems counterintuitive, but I guess that's how some of that stuff works, but, like, you were saying about getting the biggest return, it's kind of interesting to think about but I would definitely say, again, with what Pat was saying to the weak players on the team or the. You know, people who just don't care, it doesn't do anything but hurt the rest of the team and make more work for everybody else, which, and sucks too. Especially if it's a peer colleague, something like that. And you're like, you know, why am I busting my ass to make X, Y, Z amount of money and this person's doing. A third of the work and, you know, kind of on par with me, like, getting burned out, you're getting, you're feeling, you know, a certain way about like, why am I working so much harder and sucks. It's, it actually does. It's, that's a lot.

Alex: 1:25:32

Yeah. I mean, to tie it back into the topic at hand, it just. I guess the topic is leadership and don't forget about that, but yeah, I guess the idea is that when we're talking about leadership, they have to make difficult decisions. And maybe this is a sign of a good leader, which might sound counterintuitive is to know when to let go of people. And I think that's a skillset that not to get overly political, but at least nowadays seems like it's a touchy subject, like, firing somebody is difficult nowadays. And I think a good leader has to navigate that and maybe pull. Start that effort or pull that plug quicker than they're doing today anyway, because

Pat: 1:26:17

Good point.

Alex: 1:26:18

yeah, because I think and it's not necessarily you know, good people will do this. But being a great person doesn't necessarily mean you're a great leader. I mean, I think that helps, but. I think most people, 95% of the world, you know, they don't want to hurt people's feelings. They want to see everyone succeed. It's not realistic. And I, you know, that's a difficult decision. Good leaders have to do sometime is say it's not working out. And I think it's even harder. Cause this is a, another thing that came up that again, something else I was reading, but it's probably the most difficult situation I think a manager faces or a leader faces is what do you do with average employees that continue to be average? And wow, that's a tough like say you have six reports and five of them are just phenomenal. And one person just is okay. And it's been okay for 10 years. Like, what do you do?

Pat: 1:27:19

Yeah,

Alex: 1:27:20

do you just accept that? And there's a sense of loyalty or, you know, cause if you take. Nepotism out of it and I mean, does it make sense to keep a person? I mean, if you think about it in sports, this is probably the simplest thing to see people coming and going, you know, mediocrity isn't tolerated or, you know, they get their salary cut. So it's not like you cut somebody cut their salary in half because they're mediocre. If they have the same title, they're probably getting paid the same as somebody who's doing twice as much work.

Pat: 1:27:54

sure. Yeah. That's interesting. Cause I, you know, cause I see a lot of people that I don't see, I see a lot of people, but I have come across people that just are okay with exactly where they're at. Right. And they weren't necessarily on my teams or whatever, but you know, kind of, you know, they stand out the folks that just want to kind of. Yeah, they're good at what they're good at. They don't want to do no more, no less that sort of thing, you know, and so yeah, that's a tough one. Like, are they doing what they're supposed to be? Like, what's the expectation? Like, if the expectation has changed, then I would say. You know, are they, then they're underperforming if they're just kind of keep, you know, they're keeping even keel. So if you don't change your expectations, you just kind of want to let them, you know, play with the red stapler, right? So it's just, it's hard to, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to knock them for just being like, Hey, you know, I'm just doing what I'm asked. But if the ask never changes, then you don't have a leg to stand on to be like, yeah, this guy's really not pulling his weight.

Alex: 1:28:54

Gotcha. All right. Well, we're probably at time right now. That was kind of a negative way to end. Is there a nicer way to end it? Usually we say like the future of x, Y, Z. I don't, I think leadership is one of the few things that what rings true today will probably ring true a hundred years from now. So maybe that's a difficult topic, but. Anything you guys think that we can close on it? Preferably a nicer note.

Pat: 1:29:22

Kyle, you have any thoughts?

Kyle: 1:29:24

No, I was just going to come out with the joke and be like, you just fire everybody.

Alex: 1:29:28

just drop a bomb and start

Kyle: 1:29:30

Yeah, there you go.

Alex: 1:29:32

All

Pat: 1:29:32

No, I just think yeah, leadership's always hard. Cause it, at the end of the day, it doesn't lead with the technical stuff. You don't rely on your technical skills. When you're a leader, at least not as much, I think leader leaders have to deal with. People and there's a personality aspect to who you're leading, which I think is tough. I think most people want to do well. Some people can't do it just because they can't manage the different personalities. And, you know, there again, kind of coming back to you, Alex, with the, they spend all their time on the employees that they need to get up to par to get everyone equal. I don't think, I don't think there's, I don't know. It's just, there's not a right or wrong way to. You just have to, you have to be who you can be, lead who you can lead. But again, you're always sort of reaching, you know, you're reaching your hand back to that person that's on the rung below you and trying to pull them up with you. And then, but that's under the assumption that somebody's doing that above you, right? That sort of thing. So I think most people want to do it well. Some people can't. Some people can, some people are really good at it. But there's always room for improvement to the way this, you know, kind of, and I would say lead from the front, right? You know, nobody likes a boss that's whipping you from behind. Well, you know, you're the horse and they're on the chariot behind you. That kind of thing. You know, I would say people that, you know, the good leaders are the ones that are pulling the rope in front of you. Rather than whipping you from behind. So, I've had some good ones. I've had some bad ones, and I hope when that, where that takes me or when that time comes in my career that I can, you know, lead or, you know, have that manager title bestowed upon me, if you will that I would just take the things that I've seen that I don't like and not do that to the people that, you know, call me boss or people that, you know, that, that look to me. So I guess that's my two cents.

Alex: 1:31:27

Well, you did talk a little bit there. Maybe that's a good way to close it is maybe we could just quick chat and you touch on just a little bit there, just what our future goals are as far as leadership's concerned, like, anything that we're doing and are we hoping to move up the corporate ladder? And like, I guess you've already talked about it. It seems like you're certainly on that track that you want to manage people at some point, interested to see if. Kyle is hoping to do that at some point in the near future. And I'll maybe a touch, a little touch base on my goals for the next five years. Leadership wise.

Kyle: 1:32:02

Yeah, it would be pretty awesome. I did it back as a help desk when I was the managing that kind of way back in the day. And it was kind of awesome to have a team to work for you. Since then I've gone, I guess, working in a smaller I. T. departments and higher ed. It's really not a whole lot of room to go anywhere, but if I had the chance to, I'd like to get back there.

Pat: 1:32:31

There you go. there and be

Kyle: 1:32:33

Woo!

Pat: 1:32:33

brother.

Alex: 1:32:35

Since I asked the pointed question, what about you, Pat? So obviously you do want to get in that

Pat: 1:32:42

do...

Alex: 1:32:44

no, there's a butt to it.

Pat: 1:32:45

your thought. No, finish your thought.

Alex: 1:32:48

well, I'm going on the assumption that is what you want to do. So I guess my next question is if you. Do you hope to do that? Is there anything that you feel like you're doing today that maybe you didn't do Five years ago or maybe even a couple years ago to kind of set you up for that

Pat: 1:33:04

Yeah I do but I have a little bit of a fear of losing some of that technical edge. But I'm hoping that, that position, when it becomes available to me, that, you know, my uppers see that. You know, that I have the skills to fill that gap. You know, but again, and I'm hoping I, I can read the room well enough to know when to jump in and know when to stay out. That's a skill all in itself, I think in some managers. But no, I think it's always a weird kind of, I don't want to say crux, but it's a weird position to be like, okay, like, you know, I've been technical for my whole career and now I'm expected to, You know, be in meetings and manage people's you know, personalities versus, you know, just dealing with zeros and ones and, you know, bits and bytes. But no, I do want to I do want to move into that role whenever that becomes, you know, like I said, available to me. But it's definitely I'm going to definitely need some coaching and again, know when to, you know, Read the room and kind of stay out of various things that, you know, again, that's a pet peeve of mine to just boss is just muddying the waters for no reason. But yeah, it's just, that's just kind of where my head is at. And as far as like the whole, what I have a better handle on now versus what I did five years ago is definitely I've come out of the tech. Bubble, if you will, a little bit. And now I'm applying what tech I'm doing now and how it's, I'm applying it from a business perspective. How's that going to help the business move forward? I think that's a big one where you need, when you're in a management role, it's not just like. Oh, I get to play with the coolest stuff and it does X. Like I, you have to be able to apply a business reason to that. Like, there's just no, there's no other way around it. Cause that's, who's paying for it. And that's, who's going to benefit from it. Five years ago or, you know, you know, whatever. I was just like, Oh yeah, I'm going to put the Cisco switch in this new model because it's a new model. Like I didn't understand like what. The new model brought to the business as far as like, can this do this bigger, stronger, faster sort of thing. So I definitely have a better business aware of like, or and I frame my argument that way too. Like if I'm going to go ask for 800, 000 or a million, whatever this stuff costs, like they're not just going to write me a check and be like, Hey, you deal with this all day long. I'm just going to put my full trust in you. Like that's a big chunk of change. I, you have to have a decent, you have to put it in business terms to be like, okay, you're going to benefit from this. X, Y, and Z, you know, that kind of thing. So I have a better mind frame as far as, you know, going to bat for my for that technology and putting it into a business frame rather than, Oh, can I get this? And it's a lot of money, but I get it because can I get it because it's cool. And cause that's what I want to work on. No, it doesn't work that way. So I've really kind of starting to set my eyes on the business part of things and kind of go from there.

Alex: 1:36:04

All right, sounds good Yeah, I guess we'll close with my thoughts. What i'm hoping to do so i've been in management now for Six seven years now. So I feel like Naturally, I'm probably at the experience level where I, if it was any other role, I'd be considering the next line. So, I guess there's a few things I'm doing now. And when I was in an individual contributor role, junior, mid level senior, like architect level, I always would seek out the more senior engineers, which seems straightforward. And most people do that, but for whatever reason, when I moved to management, I stopped seeking out. Well, in this case, like directors or senior managers or VPs as almost mentors. I don't know why that was. I guess maybe I had just this naive idea of management. And once you get to management, it's all the same. It's just the number of people that you support is different. So I think I want to make more of a conscious effort now to seek out the senior leaders and to kind of get an understanding of you know, what makes them director level or what makes them VP level versus me. Cause I'm assuming there's going to be things that they'll be able to tell me I need to work on just like a senior network engineer can tell a junior network engineer, Hey, you should brush up on this and you should be capable of doing this. I think when people get into the management, they really don't understand, like, well, what do I need to do to be a VP if I'm a manager today? So I hoping that I'll find some mentors that'll kind of help me with that. So yeah, that's big. The other thing I think that gets pretty important when you're making the transition from like manager to director level is my experience has just been networking. That's all I've done my whole career. And even if I can get away with it, a company, the size of Disney, I feel like I got to expand my expertise a little bit more not that I'm like a novice at every other technical discipline, but I kind of feel like. If you want to make that transition to a director you're farther away from typing on the keyboard, but I feel like you need to have a broader scope of understanding. So, you know, I feel like maybe I should really get a better understanding of programming, a better understanding of storage technologies. Cloud, I'm already decent at, but you get the idea. I feel like you need to broaden your eyes a little bit because you don't need, you got to be more of a jack of all trades at the end of the day. Today I'm just a networking guy. And I guess the other thing, the last thing I'll mention is just like we talked about in the different levels of your career, you got to like, take on the bigger projects take on the things that people don't want to do. So I feel like I'm going to look for opportunities to own something that maybe something that nobody wants to do. Like, I get in these meetings now with 8 different. Managers and above talking about something as simple as like our change management process, which really doesn't fall on any one particular person and no one really owns it because I mean, what's a software engineering manager, what's a director of storage engineering have to do anything with, you know, ticketing systems. So maybe that's something that impacts the entire company and see if I can just run with it. So. I think those are the things

Pat: 1:39:29

that's interesting. that's really cool. Awesome. Good deal.

Alex: 1:39:35

Okay. And with that, I won't suggest any other topics because I think now we're well past

Kyle: 1:39:40

Heh heh heh heh

Pat: 1:39:43

all right now. This has been a good one, man We were this is one. This has been one of the better ones I think in the last couple weeks some really good discussions and some really good insight as far as from a you know Two guys that are trying to get to leadership roles and one guy that's been in there for a little bit. And I think we come to I think we agreed on most things. We've come to to a a happy medium on, on most things or our thoughts are aligned across the board here. So, that's all right with you guys. I'm going to. Put a bow on this one. We'll let it out into the ether and see what happens, see what kind of a response we get. So if anybody has any other leadership you know, suggestions or what's worked for you or what hasn't worked for you, certainly let us know. We're all about that feedback. So it's all good there. So we're going to wrap it up here, gentlemen. So I want to thank everybody for joining this week on the. Breaking down the bites podcast, right? We started as two Alex and I were starting the mission. We sailed the ship sailed with just me and him. And then Kyle came and we rounded out as the trio, the musketeers are back again, so that's all good. So, make sure you visit our website, breakingbytespod. io. You can subscribe to the show on your platform of choice, right? The big three being Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify. I think Stitcher is actually going out of business, I think, or they're shutting down. So, but we're on all platforms. So whatever one you want to hear our. Golden voices that certainly subscribe to your platform of choice. There's links for all of them out there. So, there, there's a plain RSS feed out there as well. So if that's your thing have at it and throw us a rating on the Apple podcast. That would be great at fools with their algorithms and the mechanisms and all the other isms you can think of. And that gets more ears to listen to us. So that's always good. Or simply tell a friend, right. Word of mouth is just as effective. I would think these days and you kind of, you know, if you're going to listen to a podcast that a friend recommends, I think you trust that a little bit more than just reading what we're about on the screen. If you just stumble upon us you know, a little more organically. So it's always good to. All of our socials are out there. LinkedIn, Twitter Facebook, all that kind of stuff. Discord server is out there. In the invite is in the show notes there. All of our links are in the show notes. So, the satisfaction, I should say the the feedback survey is out there as well. So, that's just kind of become an open ended thing for us. It's just out there. So, if you haven't done that already, just there's a couple of questions out there, I think there's like nine or 10, we don't know who you are, just aggregates numbers for us, or I should say aggregates answers for us and it just helps us tweak the show and guests and topics and things of that nature. So, all right, boys, it's been a fun one. I, as always appreciate everybody for joining and we'll see you all next week. Later.

Kyle: 1:42:22

ya.