Nailing the Interview

We're BACK! After a bit of a break for the holiday(s), we're back in the saddle with a new episode. Join us this week as we talk about interviews and how to ace them. We also talk about some of the best and worst interviews we've had throughout our careers. If you have any interview stories, please hit us up on our socials!

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Transcript

Pat: 0:31

Hey everybody. Welcome back to this week's edition of Breaking Down the Bites. As usual, I am your host, pat. You can find me on Twitter at layer eight packet. That's the number eight. Kyle, you're on Twitter. Two at Dennis, 2 56. Alex, you're not a social media guy, so we're gonna skip right on past you for this part. It's all good. could find the show on Twitter at Breaking Bites Pod. We are pretty active on Twitter where we try to be. So come say hello. If you like the show, don't forget to subscribe to your platform of choice. We are back. We took a little couple weeks off for the holiday to rejuvenate to get the juices flowing and rest our weary bodies. But we are back behind the mic. And back with the new episode this week, the boys are back. All three Musketeers are here this week, so it's all good. We don't have a mishmash of, you know, two out of the three, so we are back. Kyle, what's up man? How you doing? Everybody good?

Kyle: 1:28

yeah. Yeah. Pretty good. You know, digging this weather Like 55 degrees in January.

Pat: 1:33

yeah, I'll take it. No snow here in Pennsylvania just yet, but there is time. You know, I feel like some days in Pennsylvania we go through all four seasons in like a day. you know, it's like, what are you doing? This is insanity. So anyway. Alex, you're here too. What's up man? You're on the left coast, hanging out in California. How was your holiday? Everybody? Good. Southern California. Yep.

Alex: 1:59

Yeah, so I won't bring up the weather, but it's safe to say it'll be in the sixties or seventies. Sunny

Pat: 2:06

Damn it. So yeah, I bet you don't miss the Pennsylvania weather

Alex: 2:11

No, I sent pictures to a couple friends on Christmas of, my boys in the pool on Christmas day, cuz it was 83 degrees here,

Pat: 2:20

That's,

Alex: 2:20

And it was like record colds in the Northeast. That's, that was the day that everyone had single digits. So yeah, it was pretty

Pat: 2:28

yeah. Here in pa like in that stretch over Christmas and whatnot, got down to eight degrees. It was brutal. Yeah, it was brutal.

Alex: 2:37

Yeah, the holidays weren't too bad. It was in my 35 years. It was the first Christmas not seeing my mother, so that was a little different cuz even though I moved to California a year and a half ago, I went to, Pennsylvania for Christmas. So, but I felt bad cuz my dad moved out here with us to California shortly after we moved. And so he was, he pretty much moved out here. I think it was like the first week of November. And then we left, you know, a month and a half later to go to Pennsylvania for Christmas breaks. He didn't have anyone here in California. So, but so this year you got to have Christmas with us.

Pat: 3:13

that's good. Cool. Yeah, right on. Right on. So we are back this week. We kind of himmed and hawed about topics and whatnot, but we are talking interviews, so we're talking interview tips, and then what the lookout for kind of nail that interview, if you will. And then first we're gonna talk about some of our best and worst interview experiences that we've all had and kind of, you know, some are great, some are not so great. And Just kind of see what where that lands us and kind of go from there. But yeah, interviews this week and yeah, if you're looking for one, I figured, you know, it's a good time to do it, you know, new year, maybe get a fresh start and a new gig somewhere. So we're we're coming through on the interview style, so here we go. So, I don't know, Alex, you wanna kick this one off with no. You wanna do a best one first? They wanna do it

Alex: 3:57

Can any of us think of a best one right off the top of our heads? Seems like it's easier to say what the worst are.

Pat: 4:03

right Yeah, I've we've all had some pretty bad ones.

Alex: 4:06

right?

Kyle: 4:06

I mean, I can run with that one if you want,

Pat: 4:08

yeah, go for

Kyle: 4:09

cuz my best one was the most recent one,

Pat: 4:11

Yeah, there you

Kyle: 4:12

At Kutztown University. You know, went in, had lots of questions. Really engaged with the team, trying to figure out everything was going on. And actually I still get compliments today about how well I interviewed and the questions that I asked. And like, like most people didn't even care. They didn't ask any questions. They didn't do, you know, like any homework, they just kind of were like, yeah, huh, yeah, here for a job. You know, like, so I mean, that, that turned out to be really awesome. And it was great to kind of hear some feedback too, cuz you know, you never really get a lot of feedback on job interviews and stuff like that. You either like, Hey, we went a different direction, you know, thanks, you get that email and you're well, or you get the job. So that was definitely, you know, the best one. The team was great even during the interviews and everything like that, the questions were good. The way that they kind of went around the room and stuff was super cool.

Pat: 5:07

Yeah. So were you interviewed by like a panel then, Kyle? Or how many people were in the room?

Kyle: 5:12

So there were three other guys. There was my, who is my boss now. There was one of the server administrators and there was our security admin.

Pat: 5:24

Okay.

Kyle: 5:24

So they all asked me a little bit of different questions about my background different things that I had done, you know, that were on my resume and stuff like that. And, you know, then peppered in some tech questions and stuff like that.

Pat: 5:36

Nice. Yeah, I can get behind that.

Kyle: 5:39

Yeah.

Alex: 5:41

So was there anything specific about the people that we're interviewing that made it a good interview or you just feel like they could have pulled anybody from Kutztown University and it's just the way they organize their interview that made it good

Kyle: 5:55

I wanna say like, everybody was super, super friendly, you know, so that was nice too. All within, you know, a technical background and stuff like that. So they didn't just pull somebody, you know, that was like, could fill a seat. and just ask questions. So, you know, that kind of, I guess is nice too cuz you know, they have a little bit of a BS detector built in cuz they, they know the tech stuff, so, so it was cool you know, everybody was super friendly and inviting and stuff like that too, so that, that kind of made it nice, you know, I don't know if you've ever been on any of those interviews where it's just kind of cold and you're like, eh,

Alex: 6:29

for sure.

Pat: 6:29

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Alex: 6:31

Yeah. Did you get any questions that. Really didn't pertain to the job at all, or weren't even technical. They were just trying to get, you know, you a little bit better.

Kyle: 6:40

No. Everything was, it was pretty much, you know, just the basic questions like, you know, how would you handle this situation, that situation, you know, as far as that kind of troubleshooting standpoint. But most of it was all just technical stuff then. And then it was just like, well, do you have any questions for us? And you know, I was like, actually I do, you know, I'm prepared and. Then I kind of, you know, shot some questions back and yeah, it worked out really great. Yeah,

Pat: 7:06

You imagine like Kyle's like, yeah, I got questions. And he like, he gets outta the piece of paper and like rolls onto the floor. It's like, you know, it's like seven feet long and it just keeps going. And they're like, oh my God, I have lunch in a half hour. I'm not gonna be able to get through this. This is terrible.

Kyle: 7:22

Yeah, it was kind of memorable too, cuz it actually ended up being a snow day. So I was supposed to go there, but the university was closed and they

Pat: 7:32

they did it remote then.

Kyle: 7:33

They did everything on Zoom, you know, cuz they're like well we're supposed to get a whole bunch of snow and you're like, you know, coming from the Lehigh Valley all the way out here we're just doing on Zoom, so,

Pat: 7:43

Yeah. That's good. That's good. Alex you got one? You got a favorite one?

Alex: 7:47

I mean, I wanna say that all the interviews that I had that were decent, they weren't overly memorable. I mean, not to say anything against Disney, but I thought that was a good interview, but nothing really stood out as to why it was a good interview. I think if I had to say anything, I just thought the questions were good. As a manager, I had to do interviews and at my previous jobs, give interviews and. I noticed a lot of questions that I asked people were the same questions that were asked of me. So that, in that sense, I thought the interview was good because in my head I'm thinking, well, these are the types of questions I would ask. So,

Pat: 8:27

Yeah, that's good.

Alex: 8:29

not only am I prepared for those answers, which always makes you feel good, but then I kind of feel like, hey, we're on the same wavelength, if these are the things that we find are important. yeah. So yeah, nothing else that made it great. evolve IP was the first time that had an interview where I was taking out the dinner as a follow up. That was kind of neat,

Pat: 8:50

yeah.

Alex: 8:52

and, so I thought I, and it was all, and this has changed quite a bit. I don't know if that's just because I've worked for bigger companies, the last few companies, or maybe it's just change at times, but. prior to Evolve ip I was really accustomed to like the one and done interview. You, you do an interview and either you got it or you didn't. so I think Evolve IP was the first time that there was the follow up interview and the follow up interview in this case was dinner, which, maybe really wasn't even a follow-up interview is kinda know, set in stone at that point. But yeah, I thought that was neat to sit down with the VPs and have a dinner on their dime and kind of makes you feel like you're a bit important. You know? They are. Yeah. It's like wow, they wanna take the time to get to know me as a person cuz we didn't talk about the role at all, you know, for the two, three hours that we were out at dinner. so yeah, that stuck with me and yeah, I thought that was fun.

Pat: 9:43

that's interesting. For those of you keeping score at home I did not get Wind to dine at Evolve Ip That was not on the cards on the Bingo card for that one. But no I would say that's probably one of my interviews as well. At of all, it was a small team, you know, that I was a part of. And at the time the boss was really cool. He was open. He was a hands-on boss. He knew what he was doing, you know, and he basically was the team. He was that department before he built the team out. you know, people underneath him that kind of thing. So, he really knew his technical stuff and I learned a lot from him from, you know, from just, you know, different you know, walks of life in the trade, you know, tricks of the trade, things of that nature. He was really a, and that was like my first, I don't wanna say first it job, cause I've had previous ones before that, but that, I feel like that one was really where the ladder

Alex: 10:32

That was the big

Pat: 10:33

yeah. That was the big one. That was the big one. That really like catapulted my career and the, you know, kind of sprung me up the ladder quite quick. So,

Alex: 10:41

It's like, Hey, I'm an engineer now. Hey.

Pat: 10:43

it was one of those like, you almost feel like you belong, right? It's one of those kind of deals. And it was really, you know, it was really good. And Alex, you know, we worked hard, play hard

Alex: 10:52

I guess now the fun part.

Pat: 10:55

Yeah, the fun part. the bad ones,

Alex: 10:57

wants to go first? Well, you probably have more practice than anybody in this room.

Pat: 11:02

Yeah, Yeah. I'll go. one really comes to mind and I won't name any names.

Alex: 11:08

Yes. Let's not name names

Pat: 11:10

no, naming names. Funny story. One of, one of their offices is right across the parking lot from where I work now, literally it's the next building over. But anyway they had a, they had an opening for a network engineer at the time. And this was relatively recent, I wanna say within the last three or four years. And they, I don't know, they,

Alex: 11:33

Yeah.

Pat: 11:34

I got on a call with my Wouldbe boss. Well, fir, first of all, I made it past the HR screening. The lady, I forget her name. But she basically forwarded my information on and this was during the Covid era, so it was all remote. So, we got on the Zoom call with my Wouldbe boss and a VP at the time. And it just, it didn't jive like right from the start. Like, it just felt weird. It felt stuffy. There was no, like, there was no personality to the interview, if you know what I mean. Like, it's just a, you know, just a question. And it felt like a business transaction, but it was you know, they should be more than that, right? They should have at least some sort of lifeblood to them. This one didn't, it was just kind of stuffy and and so I was trying to make small talk and it just wasn't happening. And I mean, personally, I think my personality is kind of, you know, you know, out there. And try to. You know, I'm easy to talk to and whatever. This guy, the person was just like, eh, whatever. And then so, so, and the worst part about it is I literally spent 20 minutes on that call with the, my boss and the v and the VP just rereading my resume. It's like, they didn't even read it at all. I was just like, all right, what's going on here? like, this is just not whatever. Like, it's just a waste of time. So got through the whole thing and they were like, yeah, do you have any questions for us? And I did. And I struck a nerve with a question So, cuz I knew at that point I knew this wasn't going anywhere, so I was like I just, whatever. So, at the time they were not doing so well financially due to the covid things and and it's not like it was a secret. It was in the, you know, it was in the papers in our area and whatnot. So it's not like I got some third hand information. It was spewing it out there. So they were going through some hardships and some money issues and this and that. And I basically said, look, I said, I don't want to be, you know, you guys are, you know, quote unquote bleeding money and you know, if you guys go up for sale or you know, somebody else buys you out, whatever. I was like, I don't wanna be last one hired, first one fired. Like, that's generally how it goes, right? And so I don't want that to happen. And they like, they took like monster offense to that. They were like, oh, that never happens. We do it on merit and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, okay, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, well, you know, we're not actually looking for, we're not actually looking for a buyout. We're looking for a partner, blah, blah. And I'm thinking to myself like, are in a partnership actually. Two companies bringing something of value to the table. Like, like literally you're just bringing debt to the table, like So that was, you know, that kind of thing. So it was just a weird interview. Like they didn't really seem interested to have me, like they were just kind of going through the motions, this, that, and the next, and it was just a very awkward thing. And then, you know, the questions that I had for them, they weren't really, I don't think they were really prepared for they were just kind of expecting someone to just kind of roll over and say, okay, no, I'm good. Thanks. Have a nice day sort of thing. And I didn't, and I think I caught'em off guard and that didn't bode too well for me either. So that was a bad one. And the other one, I don't wanna say it's, it was bad, but it was, I sh like, looking back at it now, I sh that should have been a red flag for me. This one was in person, this was before the Covid days. This one was in person. And I went into the interview met with my boss and. you know, it was a nice conversation, you know, that sort of thing. And then, but like what really struck me is was they kept looking at their watch like couple of minutes. So like they had an Apple watch on, so I'm assuming that they were looking at emails coming into their watch like, okay, like I'm literally sitting at a round table from you, like less than two feet away. And like, so it's super noticeable that I'm watching you look at your watch stare, you know, look, glance at your watch every like 30 seconds to a minute. Like, am I tying you up? Am I holding you up? Like, is there something else you'd rather be doing? Because you know, you know, like, I didn't think much of it at the time, but now looking back, I'm like, yeah, that was kind of a red flag. I should have known better. Yeah. That kind of deal. But it is what it is. And you just, you learn from different experiences and people have different interview styles and you're gonna meet people from all walks of life and how they do things and you know, you just chalk it up to for the next interview, making sure that you see some things coming or how to handle'em next time. So those are my two quote unquote bad ones. Put it that way.

Alex: 15:50

well, I guess I'll have two that I'll talk about also, and then I have some questions for you guys based on those.

Pat: 15:56

man.

Alex: 15:57

And I know we said we won't name names, but in this case I will.

Pat: 16:00

Oh,

Alex: 16:00

we're not big enough that. That's ever gonna get on their radar, right. the first one was Facebook or Meta. I'll talk about them and I know we talked about this a little bit before we started recording, but I feel like anyone who goes into an interview, if you're the interviewer, like you're interviewing somebody that you should feel like it's a two-way street. Obviously you're interviewing a candidate cuz you want someone on the team, but you should also think about it on the other way around as the candidate has a legitimate interest in this. There it's a lot of their time. so you both should get something out of us. so with Facebook, the reason that I didn't care for that interview is it's a multiple interview process, which is fine. and you know, this management role, so that just comes with the territory. But what disappointed me about this role, and I think it's a, a meta just standard for the most part, is you don't speak to people that are gonna be on your team. it's really common for them to just interview you and then find a place to put you in, which is, I, that's just how many open roles they had at the point. At that point. But I think that it's not a great situation because one of the things if I'm interviewing that I'm really interested in is I wanna know who I'm gonna work

Pat: 17:25

Sure.

Alex: 17:25

I mean, you can on paper, you can have the best job, you know, something that just fits you to a T. But I wanna know the five or six people that I'm gonna be spending in the next maybe decade of my life, 40 hours a week, spending time with. And I just did not care for that. So I was talking to. engineers who were not even network engineers. And again, this is for a network engineering manager role. So I'm speaking to engineers that aren't even network engineers. And then I'm speaking to a manager who was some type of network engineering thing, but he wouldn't, he wasn't my hiring manager. So again, I can't, I don't have any FaceTime with whoever I'm going to work with and in my case, who's gonna work for me and who I'm gonna work for. And that really kinda struck a nerve with me. It just feels like, you'd be going into it a little bit blind at this point. I feel like they get all the information they feel like they need, cuz they have their set up the way they need to and I'm hashing out an asking'em all the questions they need. But yeah, I'm kind of left in the dark because a lot of the questions that I ask when I'm interviewing. you can't answer unless you're on the team. I'm like, I really am kind of curious, what they, like someone who's gonna end up reporting to me. One of the questions I like asking right off the bat is what they like least about the job. And I can't really ask questions like that. and for the person who's gonna be my boss, who I'm gonna report to, I ask, I like asking similar questions. I like to get their thoughts on what they'd like to see accomplished. so say I'm at the company six months, what do you wanna see happen in the next six months? And you can't really get those answers from anybody, but you know the person that is gonna be your boss. So yeah, wasn't a huge fan of that. And then the other one was Amazon and anyone who's done an Amazon interview, Is gonna know what I mean? the loop I think is ridiculous. I'm sorry, I hope this doesn't end up, biting me someday if I wanna apply for Amazon again. but after your initial interview, it's such a long interview process. I think you have an initial interview with the recruiter, which is pretty straightforward. That's not bad. Then you have a, an interview with, oh, I forget what they call them, pushers or something like, you know, another name for someone, one of their better employees. Again, not someone that's gonna, you're gonna work with or is your hiring manager, but just someone who's a, who they deem is an exceptional employee, interviews you. Then after that, you have the loop, which is a six to eight hour interview, where you have to, you have multiple sessions with multiple people throughout the entire day.

Pat: 20:19

Wow,

Alex: 20:21

So when I did mine, mine, I had, again, a interview with a recruiter, interview with one of these exceptional employees. Then I think the whole thing was seven hours with a lunch in the middle. You get a lunch break. they schedule you a lunch break and each interview was, yeah, just different people and not always one person, like, one will be two people that are doing it at the same time, and then it'll be a single person and another two people, and then another person. And I'm not sure if it was just with me, but I, it's probably the case you end up speaking to someone in hr, and they asked the questions that maybe I should appreciate more as a manager, but I really don't. And I think part of the reason I don't care for these questions, these types of behavioral questions, is, I don't wanna say they give you the answers for them, but. The recruitment process for Amazon is so odd that the recruiter who's working with you, and this isn't just me, cuz I interviewed with them twice in two different, situations. I've talked to people who've worked there and have had interviews, but they really almost coach you in how they want you to answer the question, which seems very counterintuitive to me if you, if they, it's almost like you're just seeing who can study the most and who can.

Pat: 21:38

Pass the test sort of deal. Yeah.

Alex: 21:40

Yeah. I don't want to, I want, I feel like you're not gonna get anyone who's genuine in these because they don't, it's almost like they don't want you to be genuine. They want you to say, this is how I want you to structure your answer.

Pat: 21:50

right.

Alex: 21:52

And I feel like when you do that, what you end up getting is scripted answers, which is almost what they want.

Pat: 21:59

Sure.

Alex: 21:59

Or you get answers. Or you get questions, you get answers to questions that aren't anywhere close to what they want.

Pat: 22:06

right.

Alex: 22:07

Um, other way. Yeah. Not a huge fan of the Amazon Loop interview to say the

Pat: 22:13

six to eight hours. Man, I don't wanna do anything for six to eight hours.

Alex: 22:17

it seems like, are they doing that, are they really gaining that much from this or are they trying to weed out people who are serious? I don't know, but, um, and maybe it worked out well for me, but this, this latest time where, you know, I was laid off at, PlayStation. I was looking around, of course Amazon always has roles. So I reached out to the recruiter that I worked with previously when I ended up choosing the PlayStation role. And, they were already happy with me for the previous time that I interviewed, and she told me that, she doesn't think that I would have to do another loop interview, cause this is, I don't, it was only at PlayStation seven months, before I was laid off. So she said, how about we just have you speak to your, hiring manager? And I had a great interview with a hiring manager, at Amazon. I was feeling good about it and I saw he responded back saying, we'd like to move forward with Alex. And then like a week later, the recruiter gets back to me and says that we're actually gonna have to do a, another loop interview. I said, I just did one seven months ago. Have I really changed that much?

Pat: 23:31

ugh.

Alex: 23:32

And it's one of those things where I would have. Done it. If I had nothing else lined up. But at this point, I already had an offer from Disney. I said, no, I'm not doing it. Nope. I'll just take the offer from Disney. I'm not gonna make them sit and then

Pat: 23:47

Yeah. Potentially lose it or whatever.

Alex: 23:49

So, yeah. so it all worked

Pat: 23:51

that's, interesting. yeah, that's interesting. Kyle, do you have a bad one, Kyle?

Kyle: 23:56

Not necessarily bad. I'm sure it's the there's some reason or formula or, you know, somebody that's way smarter than me has decided that this is how you interview people. But, you know, when it comes to some of those really obscure, like problem solving questions and stuff, like, you know, how would you tie your shoe with one hand, you know, turn around and explain it to me, kind of deal like that. I, I had weird things like that and it's like, you know, like, well, you kind of loop it, you know, like, but. Other than that, I mean, you know, I worked at the same place for so long. I really never had all that many interviews.

Pat: 24:32

Yeah, that's true. I forgot about that. That's true. Kyle's a homebody.

Kyle: 24:37

Yeah. I was just hanging out. I didn't know what I was missing out here in the world.

Pat: 24:42

Kyle and I went to school together and then he just basically moved upstairs to the actual help desk and never left

Kyle: 24:47

That was it.

Pat: 24:50

He's like, I'm just gonna hang here and hope somebody gives me something to

Kyle: 24:52

that's it.

Pat: 24:53

that's what happened. He's like, oh yeah, you over there. You look like you belong. Can you go fix this printer? And you're like, he's like, okay. Sure.

Kyle: 25:01

I just stayed there and then they started giving me a paycheck.

Pat: 25:03

right. He just morphed. He just morphed his name onto onto the payroll. He's like, oh, yep. No, I hear you. Yeah I'm not a huge fan of, like I said, some of the gatekeeping, and I think we'll kind of touch on this now a little bit, but some of the gatekeeping that goes on in this industry, and I'm sure other industries as well. I don't know if that's by design to kind of weigh out the, or I should say weed out the mentally weak or whatever, like, you know, that kind of thing or what the deal is. But there is just some massive some massive issues. And I personally, I think the hiring process across the board is broken and severe you know, severe ways, if you will. So, You know, like you kind of talk to the HR person first as sort of like a gatekeeper to make sure you're not like a serial killer or anything like that. And then she passes you on, you know, that sort of thing. But like as technical people, and I'm speaking for my, for myself, I have a technical mind. So when somebody wants to interview me about a technical role, I'm going to talk technical. But then when you first got on with the HR lady, she, or man, she is not technical. She, he or she is not technical. So you have to kind of learn how to speak in that language. So you're, Your conversation with them rises to the top and it's good enough for them to forward you on, you know, sort of thing. So, I mean, I get why they do it. I'm not a huge fan of it and I'm also not a huge fan of, like, Alex, I, you know, maybe I understand a little bit more in your area, but, you know, cuz you're working for the big tech and a couple of those at the top of the charts, but like these companies that have like six, eight rounds of interviews, you're like, what? Like it's just what are we doing? Like, it's just, it's awful. Like I could see maybe three, like first with hr, then with your boss, and then with the team, and then maybe another like three, four max, like three is even pushing it, you know, that kind of thing. But like, these companies that have like six, eight rounds of interviews is like what? Like what is going on here? Like if you can't pick an actual candidate by round. Three. Like this isn't for you like know what I mean? Like maybe you shouldn't be interviewing people. It's just, it's insanity. How many rounds they go on. And like you said, people are mul interviewing for multiple positions. So like there, there's a juggling act that needs to happen. So like, you may like this job better, but they're putting you through more hoops, but you have an offer from someone else and things move so fast that offer's only good for so long. And then you keep people waiting on the shelf, that offer ain't gonna go. You know what I mean? That offer's not gonna be there. I don't know. You have any thoughts on that, Alex

Alex: 27:49

Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, because. Like you said, I come across it, offers, I think most of the offers I have say, you know, you got 48 hours to accept this, and if you don't, you're asking for an extension. If you're asking, if you started asking for an extension, not only do they not have the granite, but I think in some ways they're starting to, you know, worry about your commitment to the company. Do you really wanna work with us? If you want to, if you're keeping your options open. And I know that's kind of a tricky situation to maneuver through. y yeah, I think what you said, three makes sense. so talking about that, I mean, what's the most that you've ever had to do?

Pat: 28:28

I'd probably say the majority of my interviews have been Three.

Alex: 28:32

Three.

Pat: 28:32

In that order. Right. HR or some sort of screen person to make sure I'm a real person and not, you know, some chat G p t bot or whatever, And then, The second interview is with the hiring manager. You know what my would be manager. And then third is usually with the team, or at least, you know, maybe one or two other people from the team, depending on how big the team is. That, that's probably it. And then they'll, you know, they usually say, yay, you're nay, you know, based off of that. So I would probably say three is the sweet spot where most of mine have been. But you know, some have only been at one. And then the first one's with the hiring manager, and that's it, right Outta gate. It's yay Renee. But most of them are three. That's probably the sweet spot,

Alex: 29:13

Now, if you're counting the Amazon Loop interview as one, because it's one schedule just six hours long, if you don't count that as one, then that's the most, but, PlayStation was a lot. That was recruiter. Hiring manager panel one, which three or four engineers, people that would report to me, panel, two senior engineers that would report to me, follow up interview with my hiring manager. Then it was an interview with a colleague, so another manager. Then it was my boss's boss,

Pat: 29:53

Wow.

Alex: 29:53

So I don't know how many that was. I wasn't counting, but there is, that's a lot.

Pat: 29:57

That is a

Alex: 29:57

Think that's six. Six or seven.

Pat: 29:59

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Kyle: 30:01

that's crazy.

Pat: 30:02

Yeah. The other red flag too, that I come across quite a bit is if you're just looking purely at the job descriptions or the responsibilities of the role. You know, five to seven, maybe eight bullets are reasonable, you know, bullet points, that kind of thing. Anything more than eight, like eight to 12, eight to 13 is probably pushing it. anything after like 12 or 13 is just crazy. It's just like, okay, you know, if you're gonna list something with 23 responsibilities, like first of all, how is one person supposed to manage all that and two, you know, and on one salary nonetheless, you know, that, sort of thing. So you almost have to come into that with different eyes and say, okay, what are they trying to get away with as far as, you know, from a company, you know, perspective and they're trying to put things on one person when really there should be a whole IT team doing those things. And then obviously, you know, from the money factor, they're trying to get away with as much as they can for as little as they can. So, you know, Greek comes into it and you know, all that kind of thing. So, like I said, I think, you know, eight is probably the sweet spot as far as responsibilities on the actual job description. 12, you're kind of pushing it. Anything more than 12. It's like you need multiple people for that cuz the, it's just unrealistic. And I think that's the, that's a big one too, cuz I think I see a long laundry list and it's like, okay, like chop this in half and maybe we'll talk, you know, that kind of thing. this is just insane.

Alex: 31:28

Yeah, I guess, uh, up to this point we were just talking about the interviews perspective. so nailing the interview could be the other way around, which is kind of what you're talking about now. If you're the one actually giving the interviews, it kind of starts with, you wanna get the right candidates to the interview. I think you gotta be a bit more realistic on your job description. one of the things that I've done in the last few jobs that I had where I was looking for employees is, I gave several skill sets, so maybe 12 to 15, and I said, you need to be expert level or something, or depending on the, whether it was senior or not, or I would say you need to have experience at least five of.

Kyle: 32:04

Oh.

Alex: 32:05

pick the five. So I don't care. I realize that, you know, so in this case, sure, if you come with somebody comes to the table with all 15 of those, okay, sure. But I don't want to, I don't want good candidates to be discouraged because they may never have done anything with technology X, Y, Z, but they're, you know, they're just incredible at the other five. And based on just a conversation or two or maybe their work history, you can kind of feel pretty confident that they can pick things up pretty quickly. for anyone who's doing interviews, if you're also responsible for job descriptions, consider doing that. Make it very obvious, because I think most of them, if they list 15 skill sets, the wording will say, you know, you need to be an expert in these, or you need to be familiar with these. But in reality, I think most people just want. A third or half of'em. So if that really is the case, might as well just come right out and say that.

Pat: 33:02

right? Yeah, I agree. I agree with everything you just said. It just seems to kind of go on and yeah, you gotta, I mean, you're not gonna know everything about even an avenue in this industry cuz there's just so much out there. So you just kind of, like you said, pick five, pick six, whatever. And then, you know, you sort of learn the rest of them along the way, you know, if you will. So I feel like that's a good one. So, and that comes back, I think we said a few weeks ago, like, you know, look, if you don't have, if you don't check every box on the requirements apply anyway. Why not? You know what I mean? It's just, who cares? Just apply anyway. And you know, some, you know, they'll take a chance on you or they won't. And that's just it. So, you know, but I wouldn't let not checking every box stop me from applying because then you didn't ever know, like, oh, could I have made it up in some other avenue or some other skill that, you know that they would've bent the knee a little bit on, on hiring me, you know, for that particular spot. So, yeah would never let that discourage me from applying. Now if you're like way out of there, like if you're way outta line, I get it. But like couple things here and there. the heck. Would that apply?

Kyle: 34:09

so are you guys telling me you don't like duties as assigned?

Pat: 34:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle: 34:15

for you?

Pat: 34:17

Yeah. That means scrubbing floors. No, you're correct. I do not like that.

Alex: 34:21

Yeah. One of the things PlayStation did and I thought was a decent idea, and it's something that I actually suggested at Disney too, was when you have your very first conversation with the recruiter, you know when your resume pass passes, the eye test anyway, the recruiter will actually. reach out and give you a more specific set of skillsets that was provided by the hiring manager, cuz that's the skillsets that the manager's looking for. And then they just asked you to, rate yourself one to 10 on all these different skillset sets. And it came right out and said that you can put zero or one if you have no experience. This doesn't exclude you from the job or anything like that. but that was also an interesting way to kind of prep for the interview, because the way it was worded was one, you have little to no knowledge of it and rate yourself a 10 if you could write an RFC on it, I think was exactly how it's worded.

Pat: 35:14

Huh?

Alex: 35:15

so that actually helped me when I was giving interviews at PlayStation because if someone came in and maybe they have a few technologies listed on their resume, but might be a little difficult to. Gauge their comfort level. Maybe if they rate, you know, said that they completely architected some technology could deduce that they're supposed to be an expert in that. But, with this, if someone put a 10 on two, three technologies, I mean, get ready for some questions on

Kyle: 35:43

Right

Pat: 35:43

Yeah. Right, Right, Yep. No, I hear you. I have two more sort of, kind of when you're looking over a job, and then we'll move on to the actual tips of, you know, kind of be, you know, in the interview process itself. I'll take your, I'll take your thoughts on this guys. One, do you look at the tenure of, or if it's available to you, do you look at the tenure of the person that had the job before you. and is it a red flag if it's like a very short tenure, like say less than a year? Like is that a red flag to say, okay, why did they leave? Or maybe even look back to people and say, okay, look, now you have two people that left within the first year. Like there's something with this position or something with this company that just doesn't jive and it's a constant carousel. Or is that not a thing in your mind as far as if it's a good candidate?

Alex: 36:34

So you're saying if I'm the one that's, I'm the interviewee and the person that had the job previously had only been with the company six

Pat: 36:43

Correct. Yeah. Cuz that's one of my questions, like when they say, Hey, do you have any questions? At the end I'll say, yeah, how long was the previous guy or gal around? And they're, you know, they say yay or nay or whatever. Maybe just a short LinkedIn search as far as, you know,

Alex: 36:55

yeah. I was gonna say maybe some LinkedIn spying. You

Pat: 36:58

yeah. That kind of thing. Like, does it make you nervous to, to know that the previous person was only there a year less?

Alex: 37:04

Yeah, I guess I don't really think about it too much. One question I always ask, which is somewhat similar as I say, why is this position

Pat: 37:12

Yep.

Alex: 37:12

cuz I'm curious if it is, if I am replacing someone and then

Pat: 37:16

That's a great

Alex: 37:17

turn in, turn into some questions and follow up. but a lot of the answers I get is just growth, you know, or this is a new role. I mean, I've gotten that plenty of times. Yeah. So I guess to answer your question, no it's not something that really comes to mind right away is to understand if I am replacing someone, how long they've been around or even why they left. I guess I don't think about that too much. Maybe I should

Pat: 37:40

Eh, that's interesting. Yeah. Just something to think about or something to put on somebody's radar and you know, cuz if it's a, if it's a, if it's a rotating door, then that's, you know, that should definitely be a red flag. of some sort. Kyle, this one's for you. Do you think it's a red flag if they don't post the salary in the actual, not necessarily the salary, but maybe even the range in the actual job posting? Is that a red flag to say, oh, you know what, if they're not upfront enough to throw a salary range at me am I gonna be doing the work of 10 people for the price of one?

Kyle: 38:14

I mean, it's definitely a turnoff for me. Like if I'm job searching and I see like this one's at this and this one's at that, and this one like doesn't have a range, I'm like, well, what's the deal?

Pat: 38:25

Skip. Yeah.

Kyle: 38:26

Right. Like, like I'm like, I have these three other ones that are like right up front.

Pat: 38:30

Right.

Kyle: 38:30

So I'll probably apply to something that actually has a range that I'm looking for and is kind of just upfront with it.

Pat: 38:39

Yeah.

Kyle: 38:39

Then have to go, you know, searching or go on the first interview. Then finally be like, well, what are we talking here?

Pat: 38:49

Yeah. No, that's interesting. I think I usually shy away from posts that don't have a, at least a range, right? So then at least you say you, you know what you're working with, right? So you know, cuz that's, you always get this question. I've gotten this question every interview I've been on, what's your salary range? And I hate it because in that, if you if you're telling the salary first, that means you're showing your cards first. And that, that it's a terrible position to be in. So I normally like the salary right in there. So then a, they're transparent or at least semi-transparent and they're semi complying with, you know, transparency laws wrapped around that. You know, but if there's no actual salary there, like if they're sort of skirting around not having the salary laws, or I should say the salary in the posting, if they're doing that in public, then what are they willing to do in private. That kind of deal. So I feel like that's a big one. I don't know, Alex, you have any thoughts on that,

Alex: 39:47

Well, I think the only reason that they would be concerned about posting the salary ranges is if there's huge discrepancies already within the company. So I feel like if you're not straightforward with it, it's because you play that number game, within the company. Yeah, And I think the bigger companies actually do this pretty well, cuz you'll hear about levels. Like if you're Amazon you'll see, like an L three, L four, L five, which is level four or level five, level six. And one of the questions you can ask if you know about the, levels, that's I think is a lot, I don't know, seems a gentler way than just asking what the salary is. You can just ask for confirmation on the level this role is

Pat: 40:33

Okay.

Alex: 40:34

and. Yeah, because Yeah, like I said earlier, I just think it's the, any company who is hard pressed to put that in the job description is because, you'll have one guy with the same role that's making 20% less than someone else. And if they put the range in a post thing, people are immediately gonna say like, well, why am I at the bottom of this range, And yeah, it would be great if you know your level's, your level, and if you do a good job at the company, you just move up another level and just, Hey, people realize, hey, I move, I got promoted to a level eight. You know what salary band I'm in because of that.

Pat: 41:15

right. yeah, That's interesting cuz like if you're a smaller team, right? And you know, you know, there's. Round rounds of hiring coming, right? You need help in your department, whatever it is. Like, you know, that posting's gonna be out there and if you're making dollar X and you're looking at this posting, you know, it's for your department and they're offering 20% more, but you both have the same titles and et cetera, et cetera, I think that would cause some riff within the actual team. Right? Because then it's a numbers game, like you said. Right?

Alex: 41:47

and I think that's what happens. Times are good and you're just so short of staff because you just, you know, company's growing so quick and you're just willing to pay more now to quick fill that role, and it's kind of hurts the people that have been there

Pat: 42:03

Yeah.

Alex: 42:04

and.

Pat: 42:04

that's a good point. That's a good point. Anything else on that home front? If not we'll wrap it to the actual tips of sitting in a room and interviewing

Alex: 42:14

well, I'll just say you asked if it's a red flag. I'll say that it's actually not a red flag to me cuz this, I'm at this point I'm so accustomed to not seeing it that I'm almost shocked when I do see

Pat: 42:24

oh, wow. Okay.

Alex: 42:25

and at this point, the bigger the company, and by bigger I mean like the number of employees, I think there's enough resources online that you can get a pretty good idea of what people are making for these roles. So, I mean, that's not as simple. If you know, a 50 person company that might only have one person that's ever had the same role as you, but if you go to like a Meta or an Amazon and they have literally tens of thousands of L four engineers, you can see what an L four engineer

Pat: 42:58

Makes, right,

Alex: 42:59

easily.

Pat: 42:59

right. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, so I was kind of, I wanted to throw that in there as far as some red flags that I know I've seen personally, or some of them, you know, some of the red flags that that I like to look for in a posting. Cause that can really weed out a lot of your, a lot of your job searches, depending on if you find those red flags or not. So, I'm gonna flip the script a little bit here. Now. Let's go, let's say, okay, you're actually in, all right, so you got past the HR manager, you're onto the hiring manager, and you're in a Zoom or you're in a room talking about the actual job. I don't know. I'll open it up to you guys first. Any sort of tips that are your sort of number one or two or anything that kinda leaps out at you guys to try to ease and kind of nail it? Kyle, why don't you start.

Alex: 43:45

and remember, he hasn't done a lot of

Kyle: 43:47

Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say Alex, why don't you go first and

Alex: 43:50

I just winging the hope for the best

Kyle: 43:52

Yeah.

Pat: 43:53

throwing it out there. Hoping the boomerang comes back.

Kyle: 43:56

Yep.

Alex: 43:57

well I guess you already said that you're at the point where the hiring manager, but I think it starts a little bit before that and preparing for that. so I just try to come in prepared so I look at that job description as best I can and hope that job description is actually what I'm being asked to do and I just brush up on everything that's in that job description. and I might look for if they say they're big on technology, X, y, z, I might just take a gander at what's the current state of that technology. Is there a vendor that's kind of leading the way? Is there something that's kind of new and different that some people are trying and. Not only do I hope to speak intelligently about it with the, you know, assumption that the hiring manager's gonna ask about it, but, I can also come off as being legitimately interested in this technology, which I generally am. so I think that's important. I know a lot of jobs will ask, I don't know what the star method situation. Oh, I forget what that all is. The idea is they'll kind of ask you to give them an example of, something that you've done in the past that exemplifies something. So either way, I try to think of maybe four to five different situations in my careers that kind of really highlight my strengths and some of the experiences that I have. And again, this is prepping for the interview. I just. I don't wanna sound off like I'm coming off a script, but I know those stories well, I know why they highlight what I'm good at and I try to make sure that those examples that I can think of that I can speak to them,right off the bat. I don't need 30 seconds to like stop and think of an example. And then I can also, I don't wanna say tailored cuz that makes it sound like I'm lying about it, but I can also, I can focus on specific parts of these situations to answer several different questions that they may ask. Hopefully that makes sense. So I think that's all talking about, just prep work prior to that interview. So maybe we should go around real quick and see if there's any other prep tips people have before we get into other things you might be able to do during the actual interview.

Pat: 46:23

Yeah, I would say,

Alex: 46:25

pat? Anything else?

Pat: 46:27

yeah, I would say, you know, more that you know, investigative you know, kind of thing, knowing the company you're interviewing for what they do how they, obviously how they make their money you know, things of that nature because nothing is worse than going in there in, in an actual interview, actually getting one and going in there and going, oh yeah, what do you guys do Like, that just doesn't seem, you know what I mean? And like, you'd be fascinated how many people actually do that. you know, they just have no idea what the, actually, what the company actually does. So I would say a lot of your a lot of your work is gonna come before you even step in the room from a you know, from a knowledge perspective, right? So, you know, again, know as much as you can about the company. LinkedIn is your friend, right? And we talk about this on the show all the time. If you don't have a LinkedIn account, get one. You know, look up the company. Cause I think, you know, most companies now have a LinkedIn social media profile that, you know, you can kind of, you can get all kinds of information off of that. And then, you know, look at the people like who, who's employed there, what do they do? You know, possibly find your boss and his boss or their boss or whatever, and kind of, you know, kind of make a tree, if you will, of of who you're gonna be dealing with and interacting and whatnot. And then that just helps you more when the actual interview, you know, comes, you know, that sort of thing. And and sort of coupled with that, I would say no, the actual job you're applying for too. So, what you said, Alex, is, you know, you're hoping that the description is accurate and you're actually applying for that particular job. I would, you know, know the job that you're applying for ahead of time, you know, going in, you know, that sort of thing. So it just it's trying to. Do all that recon before you step in. And that makes that makes it even a little easier. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you a funny, misunderstood story. Real quick. I am through my years of working, I've made a few friends at our recruiters and the one guy recruiter friend of mine, Dan, he set me up with an interview at a local msp here in the area. And so he thought it'd be a good fit for it, yada, yada. And this was way before Covid. So I went in, sat with, you know, 3, 4, 5 people, whatever it was, at a big, you know, big meeting table, round table, whatever you gonna call it. And like the questions were it. it. was good, but it was, it, something felt off, it was just off enough to be like, oh wow. Like, like I went in there expecting, okay, this is a route switch, net peer networking role. But then they came off asking me like a lot of voice q os things around that, you know, making policies and things of that nature. And I'm thinking that's odd to be asking that heavily questions you know, from a route switch guy and expecting him to know voice ucas, all those sorts of deals. So I, you know, say, okay, thanks, you know, thanks for your time. I was there an hour plus, whatever it was. Thanks for your time, blah, blah, blah. Go in there. So I called Dan on the way home. I said, yeah, I said it, it went well. I thought, you know, everybody was real nice and it seems like a good fit. And I was like, it just seems odd that they asked me a lot of voice questions as a guy knowing that they were, I was coming in for more of a traditional. Route switch position. He said, yeah, that is kind of odd. So he, oh, let me, you know, whatever. So he goes, let me get feedback from their end and we'll see where we're at. Okay. So he calls me back the, like a couple, like a day later. He's like, oh. He goes, you'll never believe what happened. I said, well, he goes, you actually interviewed for the wrong position. And I was like, wrong position. He's like, I'm like, what do you mean wrong position? He goes, they had two positions open a voice position and a route switch position. And he goes, but, and he goes, I had you lined up for the route switch one but ti between the time, like that waiting time of, you know, like it was like a couple days or whatever by the time the thing was actually set and by the time I was ready to show up he goes, they pulled the route switch position off the table. And so I went in there, they thought I was there for voice, and when I was originally told it was for a round switch, you know, position. I ended up not getting the position which is fine. There was no fault of anybody. It was just a weird timing thing that, like, they pulled the route switch position off the table in that like window that I was, you know, kind of scheduled to show up and do it. So they thought I was there for a voice interview and I was there for a route switch one. So it was just an interesting interview story that happened a few years ago. It was yeah, so I would say, you know, know the job you're applying for or know the job you think you're applying for you know, that kind of But yeah I would say most of your legwork comes before you even step in the room with the people that you're gonna step in the room with. And that just, the more knowledge you have going in there, the easier it is that that, that interview has a chance of succeeding.

Kyle: 51:09

Yeah, definitely. I was gonna say I mean for me going back to what Alex and you were saying about preparing, you know, do your research. I mean, obviously I went from higher ed to higher ed, so that didn't really change too much. But I worked on a bunch of questions to ask cuz you know it's an interview both ways. You kind of wanna make sure you're a good fit for them and they're a good fit for you. So. I worked all that out down a weeks prior to, to even interviewing. Once they were kind of like, all right, let's set up an interview here.

Pat: 51:41

Yeah, I'm interested to see like what what are some good questions to bring and I'll open it up to the audience there too. Hit us up on, on our socials and Twitter or email us, whatever. What are some questions that you like to ask to the company? Because that Kyle brings up a great point. It's just as much an interview for them as it is for, as it is for you from a fit perspective. I think so. I always bring good questions you know, that kind of thing. It's like, all right, who's your daddy and what does he do? No, I'm just kidding. I, you know, I always try to bring good questions and again, center him around the business, right? You know, at the end of the day, we're there to work for the business and for the business to make money. So you sort of center them around, you know, how the business makes their money you know, in, in that fashion. So again, I always try to. I always try to ask the question, you know, why is this position open? How long was the previous person there for? You know, what does a typical day look like? Is there on call involved? That sort of thing. So, it's an interesting I always love to bring good questions.

Alex: 52:38

So how about tips for during, there's a few things that I think make sense and Kyle just mentioned that, I guess you can almost say it's prep too. But, if you realize that it's a two-way street and you go into the interview, with the mentality that this isn't just for the employer, it's for you. You should gain something from this,

Pat: 53:02

hundred percent.

Alex: 53:02

then I think you're gonna have a better interview. And I think you're, you might even be more confident and it's hard to call this a tip, but it's maybe something you should work on. And if you're really serious about landing a job, it's probably not a bad idea to, I don't wanna say you want to, you know, stage it out with somebody cuz maybe that's a little excessive. But maybe you should try getting on a zoom with somebody and maybe just taking an effort to like look at your body language and see how you present yourself. Maybe even record your having a conversation. I mean, we have a podcast so we can hear ourselves talk all the time, but I think people would be surprised if you just recorded a conversation that you had with somebody. Even if it's just a phone call, just listen to yourself. Speak for 30 minutes and maybe you'd be shocked by a lot of the ums or it's just the pauses that you may have

Pat: 53:57

I'm an um, guy all day.

Alex: 54:00

Yeah, it's not, there's people that are a lot worse for sure. And I think one thing that I've noticed, listening to the podcast and, doing a lot of interviews with people, and one of the things that kind of turns me off for a candidate who's interviewing me is I've seen all parts of the spectrum with how they speak. So anywhere from a really soft spoken person, that's kind of tough to understand to somebody who's going a hundred miles a minute and people. That don't know when to stop. That was one of the, one of the worst interviews that I've ever, I was the interviewer in the interview. One of the worst ones that I had was a candidate that just didn't know when to stop. Cuz there were so many other questions that I wanted to ask, but every question that I asked turned into a five minute answer. It seemed

Pat: 54:52

Oh no,

Alex: 54:54

I'm, I'm glad I probably would take that over someone who's just a one word answer. but yeah, there, there's a balance and I think if people would listen to themselves speak, they probably realize that I think they'd be shocked. So, I guess the tip there is, if you can, that's more prep work, but maybe get an idea of how you do speak and just show up confident knowing that the interview is for you two. And that will stand out for sure.

Pat: 55:20

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I, and I think sorted a couple with that as far as, you know, kind of prepar. You know, body language and kind of knowing who you are, you know, from a camera perspective, especially in, you know, today's age of, you know, a lot of people wanna work from home, right? So a lot of interviews are gonna be over zooms and, you know, things of that nature. But I would also try to let your personality shine through in that cuz I think that's half the battle as far as, okay, like, yeah, this. Really technical, but he's like a drag to be around, you know, that kind of thing. So it's like, so it's the other way around. Like, okay, like, okay, this guy may not be the best technical fit, but he's really fun, he's really willing to work, and he's really, you know, he's got the, he's got the tech bug as most of us seem to have in this field. So, you know, and so I think, and you know, we talk about it all the time, like personality counts for a lot, right? EQ is just as important as IQ nowadays. So, you know, if you can let your personality come through and you can, you know, people wanna go out and have a beer with you or whatever you know, that I think that counts for a lot. May sometimes even more than the technical side these days. So I would say let your personality come through, not be over aggressive or overbearing and being like, oh my God, here's another joke. But like, you know, you gotta let your personality shown. Yeah.

Alex: 56:37

Yeah. And I know we brought this up in one of the previous podcasts that we have about communication skills in general. One of the things we've mentioned was knowing your audience. So again, that's kind of a hard tip to give, but if you have that ability to know your audience, you can, if you're someone who's good at judging, when someone's accepting of a joke or when someone's a little bit more,

Pat: 57:00

Yeah.

Alex: 57:01

I don't wanna call it stern, but you know what I mean, someone. don't think a joke would go well. So I know knowing the interviews, they're people too, and they want to know that they can work with you. And I think that does resonate. certainly makes you stand out. I know in my last interview with Disney, I had an interview with a guy and I could, I felt, now that I've worked with him several months, I feel like I was right. bit more laid back guy and someone that could take a joke. And when he asked me at the end if I had any questions, I realized that he had a, Denver or Kansas City Chief's hat on his desk.

Pat: 57:39

Oh, that's sacrilegious for you?

Alex: 57:41

and I told him, I said, I'm a diehard Raiders fan, it's this gonna be a problem. And I think and you could just tell like how his demeanor completely changed after that. I mean, huge smile on his face and he was ready to talk football and I think that was something that

Pat: 57:58

That's

Alex: 57:59

Yeah. let your personality shine. So that was mine. So they knew right off the get-go that I could crack a joke and yeah, I'm a big Raiders

Pat: 58:06

a big one. yeah, no, but in all honesty, right, and I think everybody on this podcast would agree that, you know, we spend a lot of time with our team and people on our team on, you know, outages, after hours, maintenance, things of that nature. And if you're all on a Zoom call and it's, you know, it's dry it's as dry as the Sahara Desert it's not a good time. Right? So, you know, I would think you ha, you know, you, you need to know, or I should say you need to be able to, you know, trust the people around you, you know, have a little bit of a rapport outside the work walls, if you will, things of that nature you have to enjoy. I mean, you're with these people, sometimes you're with these people more than you are with your family, so you have to enjoy the people that you're with, right? So I think the personality really does a whole lot of service for people that gel more as a team from a technical and a personality side of things.

Alex: 58:55

Sure.

Kyle: 58:55

Yeah, definitely.

Alex: 58:57

Well I think then we should probably close off with some of those good questions then, unless there's any other tips that people can think about. But one of the best tips we can give you is make sure you come prepared with questions. So I guess let's hear some good ones. is there any, go-to ones, you already mentioned a few pat of ones that

Pat: 59:15

those are

Alex: 59:16

you asked no matter what, right? I mean, you can't think of a situation where you're not asking those

Pat: 59:20

No. Nope. You know, I mean, the other one too that I sort of asked too is how long has the position been open? Right? That gives you a general idea of are they scrounging for people? Has this really been open that they just haven't hit? Or is it a hot ticket? It's only been open a week and they got three candidates already, you know, that sort of thing. So that kind of gives you a general idea of the type of job too depending on how long it's been open, right. So I think that's important. You know, you know, is this a new position or is it a backfill that's a must you know, part of the role? Is it on call? You know, that sort of thing. That and I think at the senior level that, that we're at here, I think on call is just a given, right? You just you bake it into the job, you know, that kind of thing. At least the last couple I've had, I just expect it at this point. So maybe not at, you know, the help desk level or like a sock or, you know, things of that nature. You know, but yeah the higher up the ladder you go is definitely the on-call is definitely in play as far as for just an expectation sort of thing. So, yeah, I asked that one. Yeah, th those are the kind of the core ones that I, you know, that I come out and see, you know, what kind of reaction I get to that and, you know, kind of go from there. Like you said, you know, depending on the reaction could spur more questions on that,

Alex: 1:00:31

I guess don't feel like you have to only ask the questions that you've come prepared for. I mean, legitimately if you have a question that came up during your hour long interview, ask it. but one of the other core questions that I ask, and I think I already mentioned it earlier, was I love asking what they like the most about the job and what they dislike the most about the job and hope that they give me honest answers. And there's a few things you can glean from that right away. so whether or not they struggle to find something they like that might be a red flag. uh, yes.

Pat: 1:01:03

oh man.

Alex: 1:01:04

The check's never bounce.

Pat: 1:01:06

right.

Alex: 1:01:08

direct deposit's pretty solid. It's always there. Yep.

Pat: 1:01:11

Every two Friday and every other Friday, you could count on it. That house of Mouse is working overtime. Baby

Alex: 1:01:19

Right.

Pat: 1:01:20

never linked.

Alex: 1:01:21

also, if they struggle to say something they dislike, maybe that's a good sign too. And I've asked that enough where it's pretty rare where they don't come up with something and I've heard answers that were, pretty alarming. I mean, there's, you don't want to come right out and ask what maybe what the work life balances, cuz maybe that'll get them questioning, you know, what your commitment level is. But if you ask'em what you, what they dislike the most, then they come back and they say, Hey. every couple days. I'm waking up in the middle of the night

Pat: 1:01:54

All right.

Alex: 1:01:55

Okay. So like, yeah, I've done that for a while. I'm not really interested in doing that again. so that might be good. And the other thing, if you ask'em what they like, they, especially if this is maybe the second or first interview and you have another one coming up, they might be able to, might be able to glean something from these answers too that might help you with the next question or the next interview. cuz I've had situations where I've asked that question and they started talking about an upcoming project that they're really excited about and then they're like, oh, well now I got something else that I can really look into and prep for the next interview. Not that should be the goal, but that's just something I got out of just asking that one question. And that's also another question I just come right and ask sometimes is, sometimes they can't always say it, but I'll ask them. what projects are we working on? Like what's the big initiative in the next X months year? And I can tell you a lot, if they have no idea, that should probably be a red flag, especially if it's a hiring manager. because it gives you an idea of why you're being hired, you know, just goes, Hey, we're being hired cuz we have this awesome project that's coming up and this is what we're gonna do. you can find out whether or not that's a project you're interested at all. if you find out they're doing some huge voice rollout and you're route switch guy, maybe that's a red flag. That's something I really want to be doing. And let's see if there's anything else that I ask all the time. I do try to, as I'm going through the interview process, try to think of questions along the way, kind of tailor it to the, the interviewer. but I think those, in addition to the ones you've already mentioned, those are probably the three that I ask as well..

Pat: 1:03:33

Yeah, I think those are the core ones, the good solid ones. Go from there. Maybe this is a little less of a important one now in the age of Covid, depending on if you're a remote or not. But, you know, like what's the dress code like? Right? Is it casual? Is it business casual? That kind of thing. If you're in an office that matters, right? That kind of thing. If you're at home, it matter. It doesn't matter or matters less you know, that sort of thing. So, yeah. Just something to keep in mind. Kyle, anything from from you as far as a question that you asked?

Kyle: 1:03:59

I just kind of came in with like the, like, what is my day-to-day gonna look like? You know, like what's the standard kinda, you know, vanilla I guess, that I could expect, you know, when I go in you know, outside the fires and whatnot.

Pat: 1:04:12

You hope you don't hear drinking through a fire hose, so

Kyle: 1:04:16

I had asked about the team that I would be working with too. Which they seemed to really take a liking to, you know, they're like this is it. This is the team. Like, you're being interviewed by the team, basically. And I was like, oh, cool. All right. You know, you know, I had asked about remote work or telecommuting, whatever you wanna call it, kind of deal like that. And they're like, eh, right now we're just kind of doing an on-prem thing, you know? So I was like, okay that's fair enough. And then my other one that I was kind of, you know, trying to figure out is too, is like, how do the problems actually get escalated? Like, where do they start before they even get to me? And how does that escalation process work? Or, you know, do people just hit me up left and right? And they're like, this is broken, that's on fire. You know, like, so yeah. So just some basic things to just try and get some groundwork to like, what am I stepping into? Is it gonna be like a crazy nightmare, or is it gonna be like, kind of structured well,

Pat: 1:05:08

Right. Right. Yeah. No. Are all those are all real good questions and I think that's a good place to wrap up. And Kyle or Alex, anything else you wanna add before we tie this one up with.

Alex: 1:05:18

no. Uh uh, maybe to the a ask another ask of the audience. Really. we are, we're not writing books on interviews and landing these big jobs. we're just given our experience, but I am curious if anyone else has anything they want to add.

Pat: 1:05:33

Yeah, for sure.

Alex: 1:05:34

they'll hit us up on our social media accounts and let us know.

Pat: 1:05:37

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, hit us up. You got any horror stories for, you know, good or bad interview processes or questions you'd like to ask, or staples that you have when you know, prepare for an interview more, you know, even as an interviewee or an interviewer? We'll take'em all, hit us up on our socials, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, email us, whatever we we always welcome the interaction with with you folks. So, that being said, we're gonna wrap this one up the first one in a month for us. So we are yay, back on the old saddle. So we getting things rolling here and got some really good topics coming up and some guests as well, just trying to, getting people in a room is hard depending on the schedule and the day. So we're we're really trying to get some guests on here that just working on some schedules, so bear with us as we kind of make it through, but. Thanks again for joining us. This week on breaking Down a Bites. Make sure you visit our website, breaking Bites pod.io. You can subscribe to the show. There's a bunch of links to all the platforms there. Your platform or choice. All the episodes are there as well. You can go there and hang out if you wish, or if you just need an RSS feed that's there as well. Just so you never miss a show. If you throw us a radio on iTunes that'd be great. We, we have gained some ratings on iTunes. We're all five stars, so we basically made it to the big time. That's basically it. So yeah, keep those reviews coming as well. We gained a review or two as well, so we thank everybody that takes the time and throws us a review. So, Nice to hang on the iTunes charts and get more eyeballs. So, that would be awesome if you throw us a rating simply tell a friend too, right? So we've kind a bunch of people that said, Hey I heard this from so-and-so. so word of mouth seems to be working good as well. So, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. We have a discord server out there. The invites in the show notes LinkedIn is a good one. That's really doing well for us as well to really gain some speed there. So, all of our social links are in the show notes, so go there and come hang out with us on your platform of choice. Guys, it's been awesome. It's really good to catch up, get back on the mic. We're gonna do some cool things here in the new year and we appreciate you joining and we'll see everybody next week.

Kyle: 1:07:38

So long.