Hell Loops and the Comforts of Being Controlled

In this episode, Malcolm Travers and the M3 panel explore a deeply philosophical concept called “hell loops”—cyclical systems that perpetuate suffering and control. Drawing from a TikTok video, they discuss how this idea applies not only to Western religious paradigms of God and Satan, but also to capitalism and personal belief systems. The conversation then shifts to why some people feel compelled to have others share their beliefs, and concludes with a reflection on the difference between trust and faith—particularly in the context of science versus religion.

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Transcript

  📍  📍  Hello and welcome to the M3 BearCast. My name is Malcolm Travers. Male Media Mind is a grassroots organization dedicated to uplifting and unifying our community through dialogue, insight, creativity, and knowledge. And on the M3 BearCast, I bring to you some of the most salient topics that I discuss on my live streams every Wednesday at 7 p.

m. Eastern on our YouTube channel. I'll talk to some of the other hosts who also have questions. Shows on the channel. And I bring up topics that are usually around relationships, spirituality, communication, mental health. And in this episode, I actually brought up a deeply philosophical topic about the idea of recursive hell loops.

These are structures of structures and systems that reinforce themselves. And the example that this Tik TOK video game. was that of Western ideas of heaven and hell, God and Satan, and how each of them justify each other's existence. But the idea of a hell loop can actually exist in lots of other structures.

Things like capitalism, even justifications within our own minds about our own worthiness, our striving to be

Enlightened if you are not typ typically a religious person striving toward a certain level of enlightenment. And the idea of the hell loop is that you actually have everything that you need currently, but the hell loop keeps the system going. It's a self perpetuating system, and I just find it fascinating, especially thinking about how, even in a, even in the denial of the sort of structures that make up Western religion, there's an interesting mirroring of different systems of control and power within society, within our own minds, within other systems like capitalism, and the reasons they exist is simply because they are salient to the struggles that we actually face in life.

And how difficult it can be to just, in a sense, check out. I think this was the idea of those hippies back in the 60s. The idea of them tripping acid and realizing that it's all a system of control. What do you do once you realize that? I think I had an interesting conversation with our panel about that.

Being aware that you're caught in a system and being unable to extricate yourself from it. How do you accept your position within it and realize that there are comforts from that system that you rely upon. Then I talk about the idea of needing to justify your beliefs to others and why that comes from a place of insecurity.

So I think one of the major things that came up with this video and from the TikTok channel that I brought it up from was that she prefaced the idea that all of the discussions about religion were from the idea of allegory, that she doesn't really believe in any of these as factual or actually, historical truths, but that it was a, Paradigm that she was using to just illustrate the idea of hell loops.

But from that very point is that she knew that people who are religious would absolutely flame her in the comments, because people really have difficulty facing information that contradicts their beliefs. And so we talk a little bit about that. And on the last topic, I'm going to bring you A conversation about the difference between trust and faith.

And this extends beyond religion, but of course it includes religion, but I think there's also certain things that we hold faith in, in ourselves, in leaders. Sometimes we believe even against facts because we need something to be true and what the consequences of that can be. Alright on to the topics.



 

 . I got a 10 topic for you today. I, it took me a while to actually think about this idea.

And it's like a philosophical idea. This idea of control. And resistance that creates this thing they call a hell loop and the idea it finds its way in many different areas, but they're going to actually talk about this in terms of Christian theology, but it actually, actually pertains to a lot of different aspects of different systems.

Capitalism is probably the best other example. I'm going to play it. Let's do a thought experiment to help us understand why systems that cause suffering are so difficult to change. Everywhere you look, the same pattern plays out. The oppressed become the oppressors. The revolutionaries become the enforcers.

The saviors become the persecutors. The search for truth becomes dogma. This is the hell loop. A self replicating system that ensures every attempt to escape simply feeds the machine. I'm going to start with the Christian myth that's at the core of much of Western culture. The duality of God and Satan.

God is the all powerful, all knowing father. He says he loves them, but also acts in ways that do not seem loving. Satan was God's favorite angel, originally named Lucifer, who decided he would rebel against God and attempt to overthrow him. He failed and was cast out of heaven into hell. He also acts as the corruptive force of evil in the mortal world, tempting people into sin, which are actions, beliefs, and modalities that take humans further from the dictates of God and the reward of eternal salvation.

This mythic system postulates God and Satan as opposites. One represents light and the other darkness. One saves, the other damns. God, as traditionally conceived, is beyond existential discomfort. Omnipotence means no fear of loss. Omnipresence means no isolation. Eternity means no death, no urgency, and importantly, no grasping for meaning.

If God is truly transcendent, then God does not experience meaning. Meaning is irrelevant at that scale. Satan, however, is the prototype of existential discomfort. He was cast out, so he knows loss, exile, alienation. He's finite, so he experiences time and change. He suffers from his own intellect, so he understands paradox and contradiction.

He craves dominion, but is trapped, so he wants control, but can't have it. He's aware of meaning, yet eternally separated from it. This isn't just a moralistic story. It's a symbolic model of how power structures reinforce themselves through illusion. It's an allegory of the Hell Loop itself. In this model, God and Satan are not separate forces, recursive structure.

a Mobius strip of authority and rebellion. The god of the text is tyrannical, absolute, and demands total submission. This mirrors how power operates in the human world. Satan is the figure who refuses submission, but in doing so locks himself into a cycle of self imposed suffering, mirroring humanity's own existential crisis.

Together, they form a self sustaining system where God demands control, Satan rebels, Satan is punished, this justifies God's authority, the cycle repeats. If humans and Satan are caught in the same loop, then the God they describe is not actually God, but a projection of their own imprisonment. The real God, or the actual infinite as you will, is not engaged in this petty drama at all.

If God is the authoritarian force of control, then Satan is the figure who resists, but in a way that guarantees he remains subordinate. He is both the scapegoat that justifies why the structure must remain intact, and the reflection of humanity itself, trapped in a self reinforcing feedback loop. The God Satan relationship is actually just a metaphor for the self replicating logic of power and suffering.

God, as described in the text, is not God, but the mechanism of control. Satan is not the enemy of God, but the one who keeps the game running by ensuring rebellion is still within the frame of the system. Meaning is not to be found inside this cycle, but outside of it entirely. Thus, this story was never about a theological battle.

It was about the architecture of control itself. Every power structure in human history has survived by convincing people of a single, fundamental falsehood. That meaning is something that you must earn. That enlightenment, salvation, freedom, whatever the system promises, is always just out of reach, always on the other side of struggle, obedience, suffering, or sacrifice.

This is the core mechanism of the hell loop. Religion tells you salvation is only for the worthy. Capitalism tells you wealth is only for the hardest workers. Science tells you truth is only for the most rational minds. Nationalism tells you belonging is only for the right kind of people. And spirituality tells you awakening is only for the most enlightened.

The system tells you to run toward the prize, but what it never tells you is there is no finish line. There's no point at which the gods of the system declare you finally free. The structure is designed to ensure that every victory feeds the next level of control. Now, this is the really tricky part, because while it's simple, this realization is extremely difficult to accept, let alone to implement.

The meaning we crave feels like it should have a resolution, a final test, a moment where it all clicks, but the actual answer is just, stop struggling, you're already here, which is deeply, fundamentally unsatisfying. So I remember think about this idea of the hell loop in terms of capitalism and desire is that, I don't know, I've never did watch the show mad man, but I got the idea that most of it is about getting people to desire products, right?

Like advertising and capitalism in general is just to keep you wanting something, whether you really want it or if you don't. And part of it is that you can never truly be satisfied or capitalism doesn't work. Once you obtain something, there's got to be something else that you can obtain or and there is also this sort of loop that occurs in economics.

Like right now, we were just talking about how. Rich people really don't care about recessions because once, you reach a nadir of economic activity and people start losing their jobs and companies start failing, that's when a lot of capitalists move in and start acquiring new companies and making new investments.

And so in a certain. regard, they want recessions. They want recessions that are not permanent. When you get into depressions, like recessions that don't turn around, that's when you start asking governments for help and influencing monetary policy and things like that. But the truth is inflation and recessions are things that we want.

Even though in the process that average everyday people are turning about losing their jobs. Being displaced, having to move, there's a lot of evidence that a recession is coming in the sense that, basic standards of living are just impossible for some people and social services are getting cut, thus making it even more difficult for most people inevitably lose their jobs.

Which then enforces like a cycle of violence and crime that causes people to become even more conservative and actually, reinforce their original impulse to cut more. And then there's usually a rock bottom and then there's this virtuous cycle that goes up, but it's all in a sense of method of control.

Unfortunately, these loops are themselves methods of control, and stepping out of them is a nice idea, but as people who want to survive, I think methods of control are necessary for survival. I think the, theological, idea of God and Satan when she was using, I thought it was super fascinating in the sense that what sort of omnipresent, omnibeneficent, all powerful being what really want your adulation and desire and control.

And they were just saying that, the God in this sort of hell loop is a projection of our own ideas of what a controlling system is. In fact, one of the reasons these stories are so powerful is because they mirror A lot of the realities that we live in and every day,

just like our systems of control of government and of corporations.

We understand that Amazon is evil and yet, I love that overnight delivery. No, it's anyway. Yeah first of all, she lost a lot of time. Hopefully I get this right. She was like white woman hellscape, if you will. But anyway, so I think it's just like religion in general. I think at some point the educated mind comes to realize that we educated that excuse me, religion was created to control the slaves and create a narrative.

I just finished reading this book. The day God noticed I was black and she goes into everything from the book of Ruth to Beyonce and the interesting thing about this is she. It's a black author, black lady author. We'll be discussing the book in the future, future shows, whatever. But she is, she discusses how the Patriarch Patriarchy is used.

The dichotomy of heaven and hell and devils of is still used to this day to control, especially black women and queer people. And it is just. I, from what I heard from what she was saying, it's just a continuation of let me give you the story of Heaven and Hell. And I, so I had an interesting enough encounter with, when I was at the doctor's I don't know, a few months ago.

And I don't know if this man was out of his mind or not, Cream. He just came up to me. People just say stuff to me. Honestly, it's what I will tell you. People just say anything to me. He came to the doctor's office. I died a couple days ago. I was like, really? And I indulged him. My assistant was like, why are you talking to him?

What are you doing? And so I was like tell me what happened. And he's it ain't no damn light like everybody else's. And I thought that was just so interesting. He was like, I think I'm going to hell. At the end of the five minutes or whatever he says, I think I'm going to hell. I said you're gonna change your living now.

He says, hell no. Yeah. I'm having a good time. I was like, normally you hear the construct of the bright light and the goodness. He was like, I am having a good time and if I'm going to hell, I'm going to chance it. Fuck it. Let's go. I think, but lastly, real quick, I just think it's a religion truly is designed to control.

I I hang on to it because I think we need something as human beings, especially in times like this to believe in. So I believe in that thing, my educated mind tells me, you don't know, you sleep till you wake up, where you'll never wake up. Yeah. I think the machine also needs to be fed.

That's part of, it's a system of control. But it's also a machine that, that drives us to want to be controlled or to find comfort in that sort of thing. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I follow along with it because it's comfortable. It's that thing that, okay fuck it, okay.

Let's do from 1030 to 12 on Sunday. Let's go. Because one of my, opening revelations, of that idea of, lack of control is the crazy guy on the Marta, as I'm traveling and this guy is it's all a system of control is they're just trying to get you to behave the way they want you to.

And I was like, yeah, they are your, I get that you've escaped the system because you've, you can't see the world as a, a part of the system, but I wouldn't want to leave it either. Like part of it is a certain amount of comfort. And that's where we live at as a educated person is to become aware of the systems of control and still submit to it in a certain way to not allow that sort of.

Existential depression in a sense take a hold of you to realize like there is no escape. 'cause escape is the guy on the martyr bus, , or, not you can have people that are atheists that, that share that same view. But that's what I'm saying. I have a different topic on that as well.

But there's a system of control for atheists as well.

  

 

I want to talk a little bit about that very idea of needing to have other people believe what you believe. So yeah, let's talk about that. I can tell how secure you are in your truth based on how you respond to mine, because if I just tell you about, what's going on in my life or decisions, I've made it.

You just start huffing and puffing about your life and how I'm wrong or what I should be doing or the real meaning to life. You're not locked in. You're not locked in and it's okay. Like you can keep trying to convince me of your truth and it's cool. But I I know in your heart of hearts, you can't really accept your truth unless I also accept your truth.

Cause as long as I'm happy doing what I'm doing, you're like, how is that possible? Because you're really wondering am I really locked in? How many of us know people who are like, married, who just, they not happy. But man, they just, they be pushing it on people. People who maybe go out and party all the time, and they're just always trying to convince everybody else, Oh, you soft, you're not drinking, da, bro.

Hang out with some people who are locked into the life they're living, and it's just a good time to be around. They're open, they're honest, they ask questions, they care. Because it's there's nothing to prove. But man, you get around some people who are,

I've been that person in the past and unfortunately I still have a bit of insecurities about my beliefs and thoughts about it, but I recognize. That idea of, trying to get someone to see or hear, that thing that we talked about, like when you're in an argument with someone and says, I want you to understand what I'm trying to tell you.

And no you're trying to control them. You're trying to get , you're trying to, 'cause you believe that if they heard what you were saying, that they, what, see it from your point of view. Or at least, stop trying to push their point of view on you. But if you're secure in yourself, you don't need someone else to hear what you said.

Like you can present it. If they don't want to hear it, they're going to, it's going to become like the Peanuts parents, and y'all tell me this now, 15 years ago when I got to fighting with bitches because you don't hear what I'm saying, what's up. And it's true. got into physical altercation with people.

are you listening to me? You know what I'm saying? I don't know my keys, like John, I drink on my keys. They ignored me. you know what I'm saying? Yeah, you know how John J was keys with me. I don't understand. Maybe you all can answer for me. I don't know. As you get older, you get more experience.

and just to let it go. Or do you just give less fucks? I think I'm on the less fuck side of it. I don't care to convince you anymore. I think it's automatic. I think it's from experiences. 



Let me tell you. So I had to call a friend of mine called me the other day and I had to call him because he needed something that Jeffrey has. And because of his life circumstances, he could not call Jeffrey directly. And I was like, you know what? Make this your last time for making me your intermediary. Because what you needed was a very sensitive thing, right? And then he made it about me. And that he was like, Oh, how can you not help a brother out? No motherfucker. This is taking time out of my day to to facilitate these things for you. And so he really got. After he came to pick it up, he really, he was like indignant about the shit. He was like, Oh, that's fucked up. You're not trying to help. No, you got what you needed. Now I don't have to understand you from this point on. I'm just telling you, do not do it again. Like I'm, I will not be your Harry Tubman Underground Railroad. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, no, because I hey friend, fuck it. I'm gonna tell y'all what it was. So this is important. So I have a friend of mine who was married to a woman who has sex with men who does not consider himself gay. So he had exposed himself to an STD. So he watches the show. We always say, Hey, if if you can get the doctor prep. So I had the middle of the day, Jeffrey. Hey, friend. Oh, friend. Listen, you have any docs over there. He was like, yeah, and that was I had to be clear. It's not me. It's not for me. I did because I would get a speech, right? Would get a speech that you know, but you too. It's hard to be clear. I'm like, nah, I'm running the intermediary for this and before his wife wants some dick, you gotta make sure he ain't, doing everything. So all Jeffree said was okay. And I, I sent a I sent an Uber over there, because I don't know if y'all ever used Uber, they have a pickup service. So I paid for the shit, right? I don't, the money I don't have. So this motherfucker is okay, you did all these things, Michael, right? I had to call Jeff call Jeffrey, I paid for the Uber to pick this shit up, when you, by the time you got here, you had made me such a villain in your story, , because I did not care to understand, as someone who was previously married, you should not be doing that. And I don't know, my Catholic ass was going to judge the fuck outta you, don't judge judging the fuck outta you. And then, no. And then I had to call my friend and ask. for things for you. And so long story short, back on topic, I did not care to convince him of why I was upset. I did. I did that when I was like, nigga, you got what you need. Kick rocks. Next time you feel like you're burning, call somebody else. Not burning. But that's what it was. He wanted Doxy Prep. I even had to ask. Let me tell you, my old ass had to even ask Jeffrey what the fuck it, what does it do. Jeffrey is always one to educate John, you know what I'm saying? Know what it is. I know, but I don't need, I have no need for it, so he was like. People are using the Greg instead of condoms. I was like instead of condoms. He was like It was Wow Like I was so angry like I had to go through so much to get this for him and then like you, and I'm just like because it has to come with a speech and some consequences if you do, you know what I'm saying? I'm not just going to give you that. You know what I mean? No, Malcolm, seriously because my thing is you need to be careful. You know what I mean? You need to be careful. If I gotta be drug into this, you get the speech stop what I'm doing. Stop working and just pull everything aside. Now, the question II and I asked him, I'm standing right here in this office. I was like, what if my people didn't have what you needed? You know what I mean? Then, you have to go to the clinic. Like the outbreak monkey, you're going to have to go to the clinic and tell the white people what happened. You know what I mean? They're going to mark you down in the book because you're going to have to go to the Fulton County health department. They're going to put you down in the book and they're going to call your house every three months after that to make sure you have a safe sex because that doxy prep from them, because I called down there, I was going to make them go that doxy prep. It comes with something, but so you can't just get off for free. Now, I'm going back to what you're I just



, I have no need at this age, this ripe young age, this tender age of 51 about to be 52 of convincing nobody of shit. Like I'm just, I'm out of that, so do you still feel the need to go? I guess the question is, I'm going to ask Jeffrey this too. Do you feel, still feel the need at your tender age to convince people? Your way? I think I do, but I understand the futility of it, so I I remind myself like, yeah, it feels good for someone to echo my beliefs back to me. Yeah. Who, who doesn't like that? It's just music or whatever. Like it, it's a great oh yeah, we are simpatico, whatever, but I don't need you to be. And I, yeah. More and more in fact, I realized that the more difficult the belief, the more complex, the more unusual. The less likely you are to be able to handle it anyway, so 



like I just want to John, we know how you are that you I can imagine you want to make or I you know, you don't care less to convince somebody to convince them how you feel. Oh, I thought you were saying something about doxy and me. I was like, wait, hold on. It was a look for me, John. We did not know. John was like, hold up! That's one time he would've drove, That's one time he would've drove, That's one time he would've drove his in ready to fight me on my front porch. Vaseline, I know you in there motherfucker. I see you at this right there. Don't come. Because





you always seem very, I don't really care what you think now. Now in green, you been that person to you always felt the need. To convince people to see things your way. It's complicated, right? Because it really depends on the situation. Yeah, when you were younger, you weren't really in control of your emotions. You'd hear me, see me, know what I'm talking about, but now it's it's whatever now. But it's different at work. When you feel passionate about an idea that you think a direction we should go with a plan, that's a different kind of frustration. And you're like, when you people aren't understanding what you're trying to communicate and then how far do you go with that? And then in your personal life, it's a little different. Like we can agree to disagree as long as you're not telling me. This is what I'm thinking. And you thinking and you're telling me the wrong thing. I've been had that with that. What you believe is this is what you're saying. No, this is not what I'm saying. What I said was, duh, like you know it, I said, what I said complicated. I said what I said. . Yeah, for sure. No, I was gonna say, I think it also, like you said, it comes with age because. Like you said as a younger person, I'm realizing a lot of that was a lot of the insecurities and things that we grow up with. And the fact that as young and when we're younger, we do we seek acceptance. We are trying to convince others that look i'm right, i'm the light look at me but through a whole lot of personal growth and therapy, I ain't nobody's god. So You ain't you don't have to listen to me at the end of the day. Now. You said like cream said it worked That's different. I tell myself all the time. This is not a democracy. Sometimes this is a dictatorship Yeah. And we're gonna govern ourselves accordingly, but personally, I don't feel a need anymore. I don't care. Like I, you don't you don't like it. I love it. Still, it doesn't matter to me because I've just, for me, I think it's a very, the indicator for me really has been lately with just this MAGA movement and the fact that they're, they, you can't tell them anything. Like they literally believe that, they're transgender mice out here. I'm not arguing with you. That does not make any sense. That does not make any sense. Yeah, there was no There was like a science studies about transitioning between sexes. I thought that was like what was that site, Malcolm, with the comedy? What is it? Oh, The Onion? I thought it was like The Onion. Yeah. No, it's a very common anti intellectual stance to talk about science studies. I was reading on that shit, they were talking about transgenics, where they were cringing mice's skin to mimic human skin and organs and shit, so they could test cancer research on that shit with the mice. But I was reading someone had mentioned in a comment on this article talking about Trump and that bullshit. And somebody in the comments said But what's the difference, bitch? What? That's what I was like. Bitch, don't fuckin argue with these hoes. They don't wanna know, bitch. They don't wanna know. They don't wanna know. for bringing this up because I think that is the most important thing. Bitch don't want to know. I had to realize that all of the the campaign season around the end, I had to give it and say ignorance is bliss. And they just don't. Even within friendships. Oh, you learned that. Like I was, I'm always in the voice of reason in my friend circles. And I used to get utterly frustrated with my friends because I would be like, I'm the friend that'd be like, Okay. Don't go across the bridge. Cause you see the sign that says bridge out. It's still go across the bridge. And now I'm a bad man. They just sit up there looking like a fool, but I'm pissed off. And I had to have a moment with that. It'd be like, if they want to go and stand on the bridge, let them up in that free. And I tell my friends now, like I literally asked. Do you, what are you trying to solicit from me? Is it an opinion, or you just want to show it to the crowd? Yeah, they should know by now, when they dial your digits, what they going to get. They should. They should know what they going to get. I ain't going to call for nothing but the truth. That's like calling Creed Bickler, that's like calling God. I ain't going to do nothing but be like bitch, that's your fault. This is what I call it, bitchfucker. This is what I call it. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead and kick me in the face, motherfucker. Go ahead and finish doing it. Be like, bitch, you dumb.



  

 

I got another topic, which is also in this idea of getting people to believe what you believe, but it's basically talking about the difference between trust and faith trying to differentiate between religion and science, we'll talk about that. After I play this. Hi, I got a question. Do you think that there's a difference between trust and faith?

It doesn't matter. If you and I believe in things like black holes and supernovas and things that science communicators tell us exist, is that different than us believing something that a clergy member tells us? Because the thing is, there is a difference between trust and faith, and I'm not making this video to come after people's religious beliefs.

This is something that's really important that we can all articulate because of how adversarial a lot of people are becoming towards science. And a lot of people think that science and religion are two sometimes conflicting belief systems. Because they're both very complicated and complex, and a lot of what you and I know about the two of them, it comes from other people.

It comes from science communicators, and religious leaders, and books, and articles, and journals, and devotionals, and things like that. And sharing information between people is somewhat based in trust. Trust is a belief that is based off previous experience or verifiable evidence. And when someone is telling you something, you're thinking, okay, in the past.

How accurate and reliable has this person or source been? And so it feels like these two belief systems are both based in trust and therefore we can transpose properties between trust and faith. But science and religion are not competing belief systems because science isn't a belief system at all. And I know that everyone has heard of this, but I want to make sure you actually understand science doesn't start with explanation.

Science is just process. How do you find the explanation? And that process is based off of things that are observable, and testable, and replicable, and falsifiable. That means anything that you hear from a science communicator, you can understand. You can verify. You can look up the process that we got there.

You can look up the theories discoveries that have led to this discovery. And you can test hypotheses. At home, the whole thing is verifiable and it's replicable. For my neurodivergent audience, it's like bottom up thinking, whereas religion takes the opposite approach. It's like top down, and it starts with, here's the explanation, and we justify the explanation with faith.

Because faith is a conviction in a belief, sometimes in the face of insufficient or contradictory evidence. It is not replicable. It is not objectively correct. Verifiable, and again, I'm not saying this to come after religion by any means. I think there's a time and place for both science and religion.

They both have benefits and drawbacks. There's a value to both of them, but it's to say that we should understand the difference between these two things because there are some people who find the things that we have discovered through the scientific process to be getting in their way, blocking their agenda, and they're able to weaponize a group of people.

Who don't recognize the difference between trust and faith or science and religion and say, Hey, see how this thing's in your way to let's pick and choose what we believe, or let's just throw the whole thing out and that's why we are where we are today. So there's this book that's called the death of expertise and kind of comes at it from a different angle talking about how.

A lot of times people don't trust experts anymore, and on the same token, we're getting our information from very incredulous sources, say your favorite content creators online, and they're not really going and checking back original sources. But one of the main things is obviously for, the idea of trust in science and, being able to replicate your.

Information is important when it comes to definitely things like medicine. I was gonna say I just finished reading this book. I'm not really recommending this for the book club. I just finished reading this book called Bad Blood. It was about Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos. What's so fascinating about this book is this idea that Elizabeth Holmes is this, very wealthy white woman who starts a company in Silicon Valley, and she is going to do these blood tests that You know, she believes that she can figure out how to do blood tests from just a prick from your finger instead of having to do venous draws from your arm or something.

And she was going to do 90 something blood tests from a single drop of blood and all these people will tell her, you can't really do that. Like the reason, they would tell her all the reasons you can't do it. Just like the physical properties of blood, how coagulates or whatever, and how much we need and how the test use up certain chemicals, it has to have so many chemical reactions.

And when you do that, the blood gets used up. But she had this sort of, I don't know, faith, I guess you could say, that she could figure out how to do this, right? No matter how many times people told her this is not possible. You can't do this. She's just I'm just gonna find someone else who will, you know.

And there's something very I don't know, exciting about that. Also inspiring someone who doesn't take no for an answer. They go to the next person where she went wrong is that she took this to a point of being delusional. She started thinking, started lying, then she started believing her own lies.

Like she could have just kept lying and taking investors money. The company itself was. At some point evaluated at 6 billion and she owned half the company. So she or herself was sitting on 3 billion in stock from a lie, basically. Cause all the blood tests that she was doing on these machines were just regular ass blood tests.

And she was just able to create this horror. Very intricate subterfuge to not keep anyone in the dark. Everyone was siloed in their own little departments. And so very few people actually saw the whole picture that they were just lying about these machines, but there is something to be said about her.

Belief in herself that she could figure it out, that she could lie long enough until she figured out how to get it done, and this is something that a lot of people in business would do in areas where it didn't have consequences. That's the only problem is that with a blood test, if you, if it's inaccurate, kills people, if someone says you need this amount of iron in your blood or whatever, and this is used to regulate how much medicine you're supposed to be taking and the blood test is inaccurate.

You literally die, you literally kills away. Yeah, it seems like a killing people with these inaccurate blood tests and hiding the fact that they were inaccurate and people actually die. They were in Walgreens machines in California and Arizona, like the hundreds of them and their accuracy was.

Basically their error rate was around 30%, which is 10 times what a normal blood test error rate would be. And they were somehow able to hide those results because of how they wowed people. They had all these like very rich people on the board of their company. You had Henry Kissinger was on the board of this company, you know what I'm saying?

I remember that. Yeah fucking Rupert Murdoch was on the board of it. You just had these super powerhouse people who believe, that she conned into thinking that this was the the next step in human evolution or something, shit because they were thinking, what if you could do these blood tests at home and you could regulate people's medication just by pressing, your finger in it every morning and But all these other sorts of things and, yeah, the power through the power of pretty and whiteness.

I love it. It's true, though. I know there's a movie from HBO. I think it's called the inventor. I think. Yeah, I haven't seen the movie, but the book is fucking amazing because. At the end of the day, it was really just her belief in herself that just went off the rails, but when you're dealing with things, in fact, physical reality, blood tests, or, like people's health, that shit is not acceptable.

You can't test people's blood on a dream. I'm sorry. It's just not going to work. You can't sell people, cause in, in Silicon Valley, you could do this for like certain things like that. The humane AI pen, that thing or the rabbit, it doesn't matter because it's not going to get anyone killed.

You could lie about it. You say, yeah, you're going to be able to, just call an Uber by say, and talk to it and it's going to do it. It's no, it didn't do that. And it's all, but any round I was going to bring it back to the previous topic, but I forgot what we were talking about, basically just the idea that.

People who have these beliefs the prompters, for instance. They're not interested in believing in facts, right? They're coming at it from a sense of faith in their leader, whatever. And they're just looking for mistakes. The truth is, though, I've seen leftists do the same thing.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. When Joe Biden was falling asleep and shit. I was like, oh, shit, girl. I'm putting my hand in the sand on this one, girl. We can't afford to be truthful and honest about this. We need to deny. We need to ignore. Yes. Shit, yeah. I can't prop him up.

He probably, it's too dangerous of a time to be taking the high road, bitch. Low. Okay. We're going to burn it. I saw one where it was like, Trump was just, had a misstatement. He was talking about how the 2020 election was fixed. But he was actually also confusing himself and talking about the 2024 election.

And he said something about like how he fixed the 2024 election. It was a shame, whatever. And people jumped on it. And it was like, yeah he said that he fixed the 2024 election. He said the words from the way that he said it, that he was talking about the 2020 election and lying about how it was fixed.

But the left has tried to jump on it and say he just admitted that he fixed the election. Cause they want to believe that it's hard to accept the fact that there just wasn't enough support for the Democrats. Even as amazing as Kamala was, which I still think she's an amazing person, like a very just charismatic person.

At some point she stepped into an impossible situation and did something I don't think a lot of people have been able to. But that at the same time, it wasn't enough, and it's not going to be enough. It was, I was just thinking about how, demographic changes, to the Senate and to the electoral map.

And it's going to even be more difficult for the next Democratic president nominee, but that's hard. That's hard to accept saying that Elon somehow had something to do with it when he, Starlink, his satellite internet company. Which is not connected to any sort of election, anything.

He, the physical aspect of him donating through a super PAC 250 million, and that money was not supposed to be coordinated. With a presidential campaign, when clearly there was coordination, that's illegal. No one's going to prosecute that, that's election rigging in some ways, but I don't know.

Cause he was literally like, I don't know. I'm just saying we, that's what I'm saying. I'll say this. I agree. It happens on both sides. My thing though, is that at least I can say, And as a, I will always consider myself a hard liver. I don't care what anybody thinks. My issue becomes when you are questioning, as you said with this sound science what we see now going on with the measles.

Yeah. The fact that we eradicated an illness, there are scientific proof to prove it. We have the data we are able to show where there were nobody. There was nobody down from the measles. Now, all of a sudden, you have people now outing these vaccines and even down to the whole thing around the autism.

Again, I've worked in a research setting, so I get. My case is a little different. I have a little bit more understanding. So I get some people, most people don't sit around and read research journals and they don't understand what that means is foreign. I get that. But at the end of the day, the fact that this, you ain't known nobody that has gotten sick or died from measles tells you something.

And the fact that now in these States, we are seeing this uptake, the fact that we have. A whole new, Ebola is going up in Africa and a whole other, like some of these ruined erratic fevers and us, whatever, and we're not doing anything. And yet again, America is leaning into this side, which is it's a conspiracy.

You just want to get me to take a pill. And I keep telling people, the government controls your food sources and your drinking water. If they want something in your system, they can put something in your system. It's just that simple. If it's a conspiracy and they're trying to get you to take something, the government has that ability.

But when you walk away from sound science, it has been proven time and time. I think I said in this thing you said it can be replicated. You can, if you have the equipment and you can go in a lab and you know somebody that you can read now with an average person yet again, doesn't matter. Do all that.

Other scientists can do that and the fact that we have gotten away from sound science and the people it's ours that are literally saying take some cod liver oil and ask them to call me in the morning like and people are dying and like we've now had three confirmed deaths and these are children this happened when he went over to somalia yet again, we're not paying attention and when folks are dropping dead, and it's like, oops, and this is somebody who is the science denier who is not money to be a science denier.

Yeah, it just, it gets to a point where it gets absolutely just terrifying. And in those kind of situations, I went to the earlier conversation to try to convince people. Hey. I understand you might feel I see the bad, like that's part of my job at times. I'll tell people I will have a conversation with you all day about what vaccines work and why they're important.

What I'm not going to do is when you sit up here, I said Donald Trump said, so and so said, because Robert Kennedy, his own children were vaccinated while he was sitting around telling the same lies. Yet again, they just believe idiots like. Yeah, it's about identity rather than getting to the facts, right?

Their side decided to go against the vaccines in the wake of the 2020 election. And the funny thing is, of course, the vaccine hesitancy that, RFK Jr. was on the side of. Came from the left, right? You got to remember that he was a Democrat, but when it became a Republican thing and you switch to Republicans, cause now they believe in this vaccine hesitancy after the 2020 election, but it's, it defies, it does defy left, right politics.

Like this sort of conspiracy thinking becomes a part of identity. Like on the left, it was the idea that you can be healthy. Beyond what the government was telling you, like he was about, banning certain substances like the red dyes or whatever he was behind that and truth and nutrition, things like that.

There's some facts to it, but also it led into this idea of purity and, you can your body's a temple and I don't want to put that poison in me. And they were not, looking at the facts because, the study that they were relying on was from someone who was they themselves trying to sell a version of a vaccine and they were, they created fake studies to try to discredit their.

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