In today's episode, we welcome an old friend of the firm and someone who loves visiting Hong Kong, former English Premier League referee Mike Riley. In a wide-ranging discussion, Mike reflects on memorable moments in his career, his recently relinquished role as general manager of the elite English referees’ body, and the increasing use of technology to help match officials. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned.
Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter
In today's episode, we welcome an old friend of the firm and someone who loves visiting Hong Kong, former English Premier League referee Mike Riley. In a wide-ranging discussion, Mike reflects on memorable moments in his career, his recently relinquished role as general manager of the elite English referees’ body, and the increasing use of technology to help match officials. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned.
Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter
[00:00:32] Colin Cohen: Welcome everyone, and today I am absolutely delighted to be joined by the famous, and some football fans might say infamous, Mike Reilly. Mike was a frequent, visitor to Hong Kong over the past years.
[00:00:49] Colin Cohen: Mike is a former English Premier referee, He has very recently stepped down as manager of the elite referee's body, a position he held for some 14 years. Mike, welcome to Law More, and I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?
[00:01:07] Mike Riley: Good morning, Colin. It's a pleasure to be able to talk to you again. Keeping me busy. I think the referee's life is always a busy one. But having sort of hung up my whistle with PGOL in the summer. I've been doing some coaching work with referees at lower levels in England, which has been really fascinating.
[00:01:24] Mike Riley: And also just very recently I've taken up the position of Head of Refereeing for the Irish Football Association. So I spent most of this week out there familiarizing myself with the Irish football.
[00:01:34] Colin Cohen: That sounds very, very interesting. Obviously, we'll come back to that. But let's go a little bit back in time.
[00:01:39] Colin Cohen: Tell me a little bit about your upbringing, school days. I understand that you were born in Leeds. Were you good at sport?
[00:01:47] Mike Riley: Well, I was an aspiring footballer when I was very young. So from the minute I could virtually crawl, I was kicking a football around. And I always had a passion to be a great footballer.
[00:01:56] Mike Riley: Sadly, my talent let down on that passion. And I very quickly realized, I think it was the day that I picked 17 goals out of the back of my net, that probably playing wasn't gonna be my forte. But very fortunately, I then at the same time discovered a love for refereeing.
[00:02:09] Colin Cohen: And how did you discover that?
[00:02:11] Mike Riley: Well, I was playing in goal one day. I came out to do a sliding tackle and intercepted the ball. And the lovely centre forward managed to kick me in the knee. And I had 20 stitches in my kneecap. So while I was recovering from that, I used to go and watch my team. Stood on the sidelines, I got bored. So I picked up a flag and started running up and down the touchline.
[00:02:27] Mike Riley: And actually decided I quite like that. So progressed from running the line on games to take up the whistle and become a referee. Probably helped by the fact I couldn't get back into the team either.
[00:02:37] Mike Riley: I
[00:02:38] Colin Cohen: understand that. You became an accountant, so you weren't a full time referee.
[00:02:42] Colin Cohen: Can you tell us a little bit what took you into that career?
[00:02:44] Mike Riley: Yeah, I always had a love of business and a love of numbers. So naturally coming through A levels into university, I did economics and accounting as my degree. Then was very fortunate to come out to a job in the profession with Pricewaterhouse Coopers, which was great education and training. Immersing yourself in the world of business.
[00:03:01] Mike Riley: But refereeing always carried on alongside that. So for many years, the two ran in tandem.
[00:03:05] Colin Cohen: Yes, just so all our listeners know. Similar to me, I was not a very good footballer, a very keen footballer. I remember I was captain of my school's house, and then I had a bit of a rebellion, they wouldn't want to play under my captaincy. Therefore I then decided a little bit later on to take up refereeing, which I did, I got my badge, I was examined class three, and I refereed quite a bit at university.
[00:03:29] Colin Cohen: And even when I came out to Hong Kong. We'll talk about my refereeing career a little bit later, when I ask you for some tips when you were out in Hong Kong. But anyway, explain that to how you got yourself up to the elite premier level.
[00:03:40] Mike Riley: There's a fairly structured system for referee development. You start off in the lower league of football doing Sunday morning games and Saturday afternoon games in local football. And then you progress through the various leagues. Through semi professional football, and then fortunately, if you're good enough, into professional football as well. So and at the same time you do both skills, you assistant referee in one league, and the referee in the league one step below.
[00:04:04] Mike Riley: So you get a broad range of experience. So, thanks to some really good coaching and some really good mentoring. I progressed up through the local leagues in Leeds and in Harrogate. Got onto the, as it then was, the Football League line in about 1989. I think I was the youngest assistant referee at the time.
[00:04:21] Mike Riley: And then progressed through, was an assistant referee there, referee at the panel, then became a Football League referee, did that for two years. Then I was invited onto the Premier League list in 1993-4 season.
[00:04:32] Colin Cohen: Yes what is interesting. I enjoyed very much about refereeing, and what I really enjoyed, was being a lawyer.
[00:04:39] Colin Cohen: The rules, the laws of the game intrigued me, and in particular, the ability to ascertain what is meant by the intent, handle by intent. That's what got me very interested in refereeing. What about yourself? your interpretation of the law at all, did you ever find that helpful?
[00:04:54] Mike Riley: One of the fascinating things in refereeing is you have 17 laws of the game, which are very simple in their own right.
[00:04:59] Mike Riley: No need for lawyers, thankfully, in interpreting them. But it's really about how you make those laws come alive to the game that you're refereeing and to the skill level of the players. Because you're trying to get a really good game of football out. So interpretation varies. It varies from country to country.
[00:05:15] Mike Riley: It varies from league to league. And that's the fascinating bit about refereeing. It's trying to pitch that interpretation in the way that best suits the game that you're refereeing at the time.
[00:05:23] Colin Cohen: That is very, very interesting. Clearly, your ultimate goal was to referee at the highest levels and you started off refereeing in the Premier League.
[00:05:32] Colin Cohen: Your first game, were you nervous?
[00:05:34] Mike Riley: Really nervous, but that's a good thing. That mix of nerves and adrenaline is what drives you into the match, and what makes you really determined to go out and do the best that you possibly can. But I can still remember my first game was at Nottingham Forest.
[00:05:45] Mike Riley: Which is about a two and a half hour drive from where I lived in Leeds at the time. And the butterflies were really flying all that drive down. Until the moment that you walk out onto the pitch, that's where you settle down. That's where you know that you're there to do the job.
[00:05:58] Colin Cohen: And of course, the Premier League is watched and analyzed by millions of TV viewers here in Hong Kong. Everybody watches it, everybody watches it in China, and you're being commented on, you're being analyzed by commentators, and that is even before VAR has come in, because VAR was perhaps after your career. Did that make you concerned?
[00:06:19] Colin Cohen: Did you find difficulties with that, or did you just completely turn off?
[00:06:22] Mike Riley: That's part of the thrill of being involved in football at that level. You always aspire to be involved in the best competition. And for me, the Premier League is probably the foremost league in the world, in terms of the skill and the quality of players, and certainly in the exposure and the coverage throughout the world.
[00:06:36] Mike Riley: You can't go anywhere in the world without people coming up and talking to you going, I've seen that game, I want to talk about that player and what happened in that match. That gives you a great thrill to be part of something like that.
[00:06:45] Colin Cohen: Highlight of your career? If you had to pick a game or pick one match which you consider to be really one of your highlights, what would it be?
[00:06:54] Mike Riley: If I'm allowed, I'll pick two, actually.
[00:06:56] Colin Cohen: I'll give you that.
[00:06:57] Mike Riley: I think that's the first time you've ever conceded anything to me, Colin. I'm impressed. In England, you only ever used to be able to do the Cup Final one time. And it's a really special honour. Firstly, to be appointed to it, and then actually to step out at...
[00:07:08] Mike Riley: Mine was at Cardiff Stadium, the Millennium Stadium. And I refereed Arsenal against Chelsea in 2002. And you have your family in the stadium, your friends in the stadium. And it's just a fantastic occasion for a referee. And I was really lucky. It was a great game of football as well, with a wonderful goal by Ray Parler, that 35 yard curler.
[00:07:25] Colin Cohen: I'll let our listeners know that I do have a somewhat an affinity or a love for Chelsea Football Club. And of course, a very good friend of mine who was sitting next to me was an Arsenal fan, so obviously we were beaten by the better team. And it was a very, very good game with two very good goals, if I recollect, not only Parler's Goal but Lundberg. It was a fabulous goal as well. Why is it that everyone only referees one FA Cup, is that it? You'll never do another one. Probably like same as the World Cup, I suspect.
[00:07:54] Mike Riley: Yeah, it changed slightly during COVID. So Anthony Taylor and Michael Alder have both done a second final because they did the two games in those years.
[00:08:01] Mike Riley: But I think it should be like that. It's a really special occasion. And we have enough quality referees here in England, so that you always have somebody suitable for the match.
[00:08:09] Colin Cohen: Yeah, and tell us about the second match.
[00:08:11] Mike Riley: The second game was, I did a qualification game for the European Championship, Ukraine against Spain.
[00:08:16] Mike Riley: And effectively whoever won qualified for the tournament. It was the second last game of the group. Luzhniki Stadium, a hundred thousand people, fantastic atmosphere. Spain were leading 2 1 and in the 93rd minute, Ukraine had a corner, ball came in, got headed out and a 35 yard volley straight into the top corner making it 2 each.
[00:08:37] Mike Riley: The whole stadium erupted, fantastic sporting moment. But the best bit about, for me, the memory was... As all the players were going back to the halfway line to line up for the kickoff, Raul, who was the captain of Spain, turned to the player who'd scored and just applauded him. And it was a fellow professional recognising great skill and composure.
[00:08:54] Mike Riley: And a wonderful sporting moment. Never got captured on camera, nobody made a fuss about it. But to me, something that really epitomized a great spirit in football.
[00:09:02] Colin Cohen: I remember that game. It was a very, very, very good game as well. Obviously, you're a FIFA referee. You were involved in international matches. You took part in the European Championships 2004 in Portugal.
[00:09:13] Colin Cohen: Again, I was watching games there. Memories of that?
[00:09:16] Mike Riley: Fantastic memories. The most important appointment of my career at the time. And I was probably the most junior referee there, so I was working with some people who were my heroes. And to get to spend two weeks with them in preparation for the tournament and learn from them was fantastic.
[00:09:30] Mike Riley: And being able to take to the field as a referee, knowing that you're in such an important tournament with great teams, was a fantastic feeling, really enjoyed it.
[00:09:39] Colin Cohen: It must have been a great experience. Like all these big European Championships, World Cups, they're the games I love to go to. And let's have a little bit of controversy.
[00:09:48] Colin Cohen: We always have to do this. The most controversial match of your career, perhaps it was Manchester United versus Arsenal, ending their 49th match unbeaten run in the Premier League. Do you remember a little bit about that?
[00:10:00] Mike Riley: I remember it as though it was yesterday. And I'm constantly reminded it by taxi drivers who are Arsenal fans.
[00:10:06] Colin Cohen: Perhaps you can tell our listeners a little bit about it, so I'll be remaining neutral.
[00:10:10] Mike Riley: Well, that makes a change, so that's good. It was a really important game at the time. Arsenal on the Invincibles. Went to Old Trafford on that Sunday. A really challenging game. Clearly not one of my finest hours.
[00:10:22] Mike Riley: A number of decisions that were difficult. And a number of important decisions. One or two, particularly, that we didn't get right. And again, if you're talking now about the way the game has changed with VAR, that's a perfect example of a game where had you had VAR, the nature of the game would've been completely different.
[00:10:38] Mike Riley: It would've been a lot fairer decision during the course of the 90 minutes,
[00:10:41] Colin Cohen: And it also has the incident that took place a little bit after the game it was known as the sort of the pizza throwing by Fabregas and Alec Ferguson outside the dressing rooms afterwards. Do you remember anything about that? Were you involved in that?
[00:10:56] Mike Riley: It's really strange actually, if you know the layout of the tunnel at Old Trafford, you walk up to the pitch, there's a long corridor up, and then there's a left hand turn, and the referee's room is the first room on that next corridor.
[00:11:07] Mike Riley: So we were first off the pitch, and we got into our room, and you close the door and the security outside the referee's changing room. So, genuinely, the first we knew about it was when I was leaving the ground about an hour later, and you turn on the radio and you hear all these reports. So, you were so close to something that had happened that created such noise, but actually completely oblivious to it, which is fascinating.
[00:11:27] Colin Cohen: And obviously, digressing a little bit, whilst you're, refereeing week in, week out, mid week games, games at the weekend. Work, accountancy work, were you able to do both at the same time, or did you give that up and just become purely focused on the refereeing?
[00:11:43] Mike Riley: When I first got onto the Premier League, referees were not full time so we all had jobs elsewhere, and that carried on for about the first four or five years, actually.
[00:11:51] Mike Riley: So it wasn't until 2002 that we became full-time match officials, and even then some of us were having to do part-time work while we saw out our other contracts. Fortunately now the whole finances within refereeing has changed. So the referees both in the Premier League and in the Championship are all full time. They're totally dedicated to what they do on the pitch which is the right way to be. It's a professional environment, professional sport. But I can remember vividly doing games in Europe, sat on the plane at 6am in the morning, busily scribbling notes for work and emailing those off, then going out and doing a game, traveling back, arriving home really late one night, having to get up the next day and go and referee a Premier League game.
[00:12:30] Mike Riley: The schedule used to be fairly chaotic, trying to mix everything together.
[00:12:33] Colin Cohen: Not easy, I'm glad to see now that everybody is fully professional. Now let's talk a little bit about Hong Kong. And, you are a well known visitor to Hong Kong. And I think I was a tiny bit responsible for that. And to help our viewers about that, I remember we had the Hong Kong football sevens going on at the Hong Kong football club and then all of a sudden I was told there's oh, there's a referee.
[00:12:58] Colin Cohen: Everyone knows that I'm the referee at the football club. Oh Colin, there's a very important referee Mike Riley sitting in the stands all on his own go and look after him. And that was a very very first time we met if you remember because you are on your way to Australia. And there was me coming up to you and introducing myself to you as being a very sort of good referee.
[00:13:18] Colin Cohen: I actually had refereed a little bit in the league here in the very, very early days. Not very long, but did a couple of games. And we built a hopefully a good friendship.
[00:13:26] Mike Riley: Now that was the start of a wonderful friendship. I still remember it clearly. So I was flying out to referee Australia-Greece and fortunately I picked my stopover as being Hong Kong and not anywhere else.
[00:13:36] Mike Riley: And I was sat at breakfast that morning reading the local paper and I saw this note about the tournament. So I took myself off down to the stadium, sat there watching the opening game. When, lo and behold, you came up and tapped me on the shoulder. Started talking football. Telling me just how good a referee you were, if I remember rightly.
[00:13:53] Colin Cohen: And I am.
[00:13:54] Mike Riley: Good, that's okay. And then you invited me to the dinner that evening, so I could celebrate the performance of the referees in the tournament. And from there we became great friends. Very kindly you invited me back the following year to referee. And it snowballed from there.
[00:14:08] Colin Cohen: And then if I can tell our listers, it's quite an interesting story that, you refereed, if you recollect 2007, the FA Cup final here between South China and Happy Valley which was a good game.
[00:14:20] Colin Cohen: China won it 3-1. But the background to that game was very, very interesting because you were also gonna referee The Sevens at that time as well. And we had to get consent from the Hong Kong FA for you to be part of our Football Sevens. So they looked, they um'd and they ah'd, and they called me up and said, look, we really want to give you the consent, but it is on condition, they said to me, that you referee the FA Cup final in Hong Kong.
[00:14:49] Colin Cohen: So I had to remember calling you up and saying, Mike, there's a little bit of a problem here. Are you prepared to do that? And you quite genuinely said to me, well, I'm okay, but what about the local referees? But then, of course, you then built up, or if you like to say, a bit of a relationship for you to help with coaching of all the local referees, and I think they welcomed you with open arms.
[00:15:07] Colin Cohen: That was interesting, I recollect. Do you remember that game?
[00:15:10] Mike Riley: I do indeed. It's the first game I think I've ever done that for at least 10 minutes of the game, the entire pitch was underwater. And there was a marvellous sliding tackle that started in the centre circle and finished in one of the penalty areas. It was that wet.
[00:15:22] Mike Riley: But it was a fantastic game of football.
[00:15:24] Colin Cohen: It was good. And then, obviously, you came out. We were very lucky whilst you were refereeing. That you came out to the Sevens and you refereed on the Hong Kong Football Club Sevens which I think you enjoyed a little bit.
[00:15:35] Mike Riley: Sevens is a fantastic tournament and it's great not only to go out and referee it, apart from the abuse that you occasionally get from the sidelines, I seem to remember.
[00:15:43] Mike Riley: Just me, just me. That's just you, yes, good. But also, you mentioned earlier about the relationship we have with Hong Kong referees. So it started on the cup final, but then, visiting the Sevens every year, we built up a great rapport between us. And we now do a lot of work, collaboratively, in developing our referees.
[00:16:01] Mike Riley: So when I was at PGML, we used to send referees out to Hong Kong to experience a different climate, the different types of football, the different way that games are refereed. Likewise, Charles and his team sent referees over to England to experience English football, and we both really benefited from that relationship over time.
[00:16:16] Colin Cohen: And then we have this, with your career, your change of roles, having one minute blowing the whistle and being one of the leading premier referees, You then became appointed as the head of the Professional Games Match Officials, that's the organization which deals with all the referees and running the whole show.
[00:16:37] Colin Cohen: Tell me a little bit about that, how did that come about?
[00:16:39] Mike Riley: Yeah, so whilst I was refereeing, the previous general manager of PGML retired, this guy called Keith Hackett, and the job became vacant. But at that time, I was on the cusp of finishing my international career, which it comes to an end at the time at 45, and I was looking for a new challenge.
[00:16:55] Mike Riley: So I threw my hat into the ring, came out successful in the process, and took on the responsibility, not just for the referees in the Premier League, but all of the match officials, Premier League, Championship, League 1, League 2, National League. And more recently the Woman's Super League and Woman's championship.
[00:17:11] Mike Riley: So it was a really broad remit that made sure that you're immersed in referee in the professional game. Yeah.
[00:17:17] Colin Cohen: So that lasted well for 14 years. So tell me a little bit about, what you did each week, I mean, what you actually did do in how in the early days and how things may have changed a little bit later.
[00:17:29] Mike Riley: I think the most fundamental change is the amount of resource we came into refereeing with. So, when I started out, I had a team, we managed at the time, 500 match officials, and I had a team of about 11 people in total. You look now, and that's grown to something like 130, 140 people of referee coaches, sports scientists, psychologists, administrative support team, logistics.
[00:17:53] Mike Riley: And that is professionalizing the refereeing infrastructure so that it can provide the right level of service to the game. And mirrors really what clubs do at the very elite end. So those early days were really challenging. It was great. You were involved in everything. It's a really hands on job. From coaching a referee one day, to appointing referees the next day, to dealing with the competitions, going out and visiting clubs.
[00:18:16] Mike Riley: You got immersed in everything.
[00:18:17] Colin Cohen: And obviously, just again, to help all our listeners, one of your jobs was to select the referees each week for each game. Did you find that difficult, or was it something which you enjoyed doing, did you ever get referees to say, oh, I fancy going up to a refereeing at, Old Trafford, how did that go about, how did that work?
[00:18:36] Mike Riley: I don't know, all the referees wanted to do the best game of the weekend. They're a competitive bunch of referees. But appointing is probably the most important part of the job. Because we're a service provider fundamentally in refereeing. And you need to make sure you have the right refereeing team on the right game every weekend.
[00:18:50] Mike Riley: Whilst being mindful that you also need to develop people and give them opportunities. So an awful lot of time and effort went into trying to make sure we selected the right people for games. And we would look six weeks ahead. We would plan, and then we would change those plans every week depending on form, depending on availability, injuries.
[00:19:08] Mike Riley: Depending on whether UEFA had come along and appointed people to Champions League games and ruined our planning. So all of those factors went into the mix.
[00:19:15] Colin Cohen: That must be quite interesting. Now, another topic which is quite, obviously you're very professional, the referees are paid reasonably well, but nowhere near the amount of moneys that players get. And you have support as well. VAR has always been a sort of interesting, matter. In the past, we said, I watched my football, and the great talking point of the game was that incident happened, and we all have our own views.
[00:19:39] Colin Cohen: For, again, the statistics show that close to 90% of all decisions are correct, even higher on the offside as well. And obviously, VAR is here forever and ever, your views on the VAR, getting used to it, inputting it, how did you manage to cope with that?
[00:19:55] Mike Riley: I think if you look at does elite football need VAR, I think the answer is yes.
[00:20:01] Mike Riley: So, we came to a position where there was more scrutiny on the game, more cameras on the game, more information that was available to people watching than there was to a referee. Because the referee only gets one shot at it. From where you stood at the time, you have one view and instantaneously you have to try and make a decision.
[00:20:16] Mike Riley: And clearly you can think of a number of examples of really important decisions in games where the referee, just from being human, didn't make the right outcome, but where the information was immediately available to say you could have got the right decision and football could have been fair as a result.
[00:20:30] Mike Riley: And the one that really stands to my mind is, you remember the France-Republic of Ireland World Cup qualifier.
[00:20:37] Colin Cohen: Thierry Henry.
[00:20:38] Mike Riley: See, you remember Thierry Henry and the handball. I remember Martin Hanson, who was a good friend of mine, who was the referee. Who actually had a fantastic game that night.
[00:20:46] Mike Riley: But, for the crucial incident, he missed it. He just couldn't see the handball. But the rest of the world could. And as a result, Ireland get eliminated. So, if you have the technology available, that can correct that decision, make the game fairer, I think you should use it. VAR has been here for 5 years. And undoubtedly it has made the game fairer. Because it corrects those errors that could have impacted on the result of the game. And, as a result, you get a lot fairer game than football.
[00:21:13] Colin Cohen: I entirely agree, and my experience was in South Africa, England, Germany, frank Lampard's goal crossed the line. Everyone in the stadium could see it cross the line. Everyone on TV could see it cross the line. Everyone except the assistant referee and the referee. So with instances like that, of course you need it. And also when you have, let's say, the wrong person sent off, that is, again, important as well. But has not VAR, the way it's being utilized in the amounts of one area that you received a little bit of criticism in the last couple of seasons was, who do you blame if something goes wrong on VAR?
[00:21:51] Colin Cohen: Well, the person who's in charge. And lots of issues were taken on the slight offside, a little bit of the cuff of a hand being just over the line in front of the players. And those little items as well. Is there too much on that? I can understand it for the obvious decisions, but let's say in a lot of the offsides, which were when a goal was not given when it wasn't really off, it's been, it's not been easy, has it?
[00:22:14] Mike Riley: No it's not, but it never was going to be. I think I'm on record as saying, when we were first looking at VAR in the Premier League, that it's going to be a five to ten year project. Because it's such a fundamental change to the way that we played football for generations. And learning how to apply technology in a way that's sympathetic to the game.
[00:22:32] Mike Riley: It's been a challenge for everybody, not just referees, but for players, managers, the public as well. And if you look at the way technology has been implemented in other sports, particularly rugby and cricket, it took them 10 years to get to a position where actually the technology is now in tune with the way that the game is being played.
[00:22:51] Mike Riley: But even then you'll still have instances that throw up questions as to how you might make it more effective. So we're still going through that journey in football. And I think all the things that you talked about are valid items for debate. Where do you draw the line on marginal offsides. What is the definition of a clear and obvious error?
[00:23:08] Mike Riley: It has to be, by definition, subjective. And we've gone through a really good learning curve over the last two or three years, working with players and managers to go, on specific incidents, do we think that is a clear and obvious error, or it isn't a clear and obvious error? So when you said that... One of the joys is debating decisions post match.
[00:23:26] Mike Riley: That will always carry on because you will still have that degree of subjectivity. But what we've really done is eliminate the Martin Hanson, Thieery Henry type incidents. That makes the game fairer. But we'll still have something to talk about.
[00:23:37] Colin Cohen: Yeah, and that's what football is all about. I mean, as both a referee and head of the looking after the referees, you need to have thick skin and a bit of a sense of humour.
[00:23:47] Colin Cohen: And you get constant criticism from managers, players and fans. Easy or difficult for you to deal with that? Do you find yourself getting a little bit concerned or depressed at all? Or do you just, go with the times and deal with it?
[00:23:59] Mike Riley: Okay, so that's a really interesting question in the current climate.
[00:24:02] Mike Riley: I think all referees who come through the system have a degree of resilience, and the more you move through towards the elite game, the stronger that sense of resilience is. I think there's a more philosophical question as to whether that's something we have to develop, or whether actually culture of the game should change and value and respect referees more highly.
[00:24:20] Mike Riley: And across Europe at the moment, we're going through an exercise. We've just done the same in the IFA. I know ahead of the Premier League Seasonal Launch this week, Howard's going to be speaking about it. That says, actually, let's value and respect our match officials a little bit more than we have been doing.
[00:24:34] Mike Riley: Yes, there's passion in the game. Yes, there's fair criticism. But value and understand the role that the referee plays. And let's not tip that passion into aggression and abuse and undermining respect. So we're trying to move the dial a little bit more. But certainly at the very top levels of the game, referees, completely uninfluenced, they're out there to control the game of football to the best of their ability.
[00:24:56] Mike Riley: And that resilience, serve and so welcoming through the system is what take them through that 90 minutes.
[00:25:01] Colin Cohen: Yeah, I mean, I entirely agree with that. And of course, we're about to embark upon the coming season. Great talks now, like in the World Cup, he added on time in respect of celebrations, et cetera.
[00:25:12] Colin Cohen: And players are worried about having to play as opposed to games are going to last for 110 minutes, as opposed to 90 minutes. They've been warned, they'll talk about numerous yellow cards gonna be given because you're not gonna allow the referees to be surrounded by the players getting a little bit upset and the normal things one used to see many, many years ago.
[00:25:30] Colin Cohen: I think that's interesting your take on that, for the coming season?
[00:25:33] Mike Riley: I think it's really positive. I think, in terms of player and technical behaviour, I think that's a step forward. I think the game as a whole has gone, actually we've allowed things to slip. Roughly, playing a party in that as well, we've allowed things to slip.
[00:25:46] Mike Riley: So redrawing those lines gives everyone greater clarity. I think that's good for the game. And equally playing time. We've seen some recent examples, the Europa League final is a great one, where the actual 90 minutes took about 120 minutes overall to play, because there's so much delaying going on in the game.
[00:26:04] Mike Riley: And we all want to see more effective playing time in the match. So hopefully what you'll see over time is a movement away from 15 minutes being added on at the end of the game because player behavior changes where the game's more fluid and actually get more of that time in the 90 minutes that we expect.
[00:26:20] Mike Riley: So that's a positive initiative as well.
[00:26:22] Colin Cohen: I also think one of the important things you have done and the real growth of the game of football which I'm beginning to enjoy, and it's not only in football but also in cricket, It's the women's football and the women's cricket, which is being broadcast all over.
[00:26:36] Colin Cohen: Everyone's watching the games as well. And in particular women assistant referees, women referees in the World Cup. We had one game which I went to watching a full team of women refereeing the game, the Spain-Germany game, and they were great, as well. And I think you've been heavily involved in assisting out with referees for the Women's Super League, which is very, very well, is growing and growing all the time.
[00:26:58] Mike Riley: Oh it is. The last, about five years ago, for a long time actually, but the last five years is where it really came to life. As PGML we wanted to work with the women match officials and try and bring the support and the resource that we had available to help their development. So it's now three seasons ago we managed to take over the Women's Super League and the Women's Championship and look after the match officials for those competitions.
[00:27:20] Mike Riley: And watching them flourish and thrive with that support around, it's been fantastic. And you look at the number of women officials now coming through at the very top level of the game in the men's pathway in England, and it's testament not only to their hard work, but to their skill, and they've got no better example leading the way than Rebecca Welsh and Cheryl Foster, who are both out in Australia at the moment.
[00:27:42] Mike Riley: Both refereed a game in the round of 16. Rebecca had the great thrill of doing Australia against Denmark in front of 76,000 fans. So you can see the quality there. You can see the opportunities there. And if you're a women's match official now, looking at what you can achieve in both the men's and women's pathways here, the opportunities are fantastic.
[00:28:02] Colin Cohen: I mean, it's huge, huge. And I'm really pleased to see that. Mike, you'll step down from looking after all the referees. Your very, very good friend Howard Webb has taken over. There were some interesting articles in the press recently saying that Howard is going to be able to go and talk to the players on the training pitches, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:28:20] Colin Cohen: He's a good person. I think he's going to do very well. Your views of Howard? You mentored him earlier on, I remember that. I remember being at the South Africa World Cup Final, and Spain, and Holland, and meeting you there, and watching that game.
[00:28:33] Mike Riley: Well, Howard and I go way back. I mean, his father taught me to referee rather a long, long time ago.
[00:28:38] Mike Riley: And Howard actually came to one of my games when he was a young, up and coming referee. I think he was about 14 at the time. So I've known Howard a long time. And clearly one of the world's best referees to do that final in South Africa, the pinnacle of his career, but actually going on to go back to Brazil in 2014 and referee again.
[00:28:55] Mike Riley: And if you can remember, he did the quarterfinal involving, I think it was Brazil or Columbia. Which is just an outstanding refereeing performance. Fantastic communicator. And he will go out and sell the refereeing story to the world, which is really good. So I was delighted to be able to recruit Howard.
[00:29:10] Mike Riley: It was about almost two years ago now when we first did the deal. He had to finish off his work with the MLS and then came along. So for me to hand on the baton to somebody of his quality last summer. It's a great feeling for me. It's actually fantastic for English refereeing
[00:29:23] Colin Cohen: And you yourself now, I mean, you're stood down, you're now embarking upon a couple of new projects.
[00:29:29] Colin Cohen: And one of them, which I'm quite intrigued in, is that you go to games on behalf of UEFA and you assess the referees. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
[00:29:37] Mike Riley: Yeah, so at every UEFA match there's a referee observer who's there to critique the performance of the referee and actually provide training development advice fundamentally.
[00:29:46] Mike Riley: So last week I was out in Georgia for a Europa Conference League game working with a referee I'm actually the coach for as well. So young Italian referee, it's his first year on the international panel. That was his first club match. Great performance. So, you watch the game, you debrief them immediately after the match.
[00:30:05] Mike Riley: But then two days later, we sat down together, Teams call, looking at incidents within the match discussing how things might have been done differently, what was good, what could we improve on, what do we take into the next game, and then I keep in constant touch with him as well. So, both in looking at what he does back in Serie A, but also more importantly, what he does in his next UEFA games as well.
[00:30:25] Mike Riley: And I tend to do about 10 of those games a season.
[00:30:27] Colin Cohen: That's great. And of course, now that's sort of slightly changing it, you have watched me referee. Do you remember that? In the Hong Kong Football Club, you were there and I was doing a nice friendly game between the gazelles and some other opponents and after you gave me something as well, very happy to hear how I would be assessed.
[00:30:45] Mike Riley: Well I remember it clearly, Colin. The degree of control was absolutely exemplary, I would say. The degree of bending the laws to suit your way of controlling the game was also exemplary. So, I don't think Simrins had been introduced at the time, had they?
[00:31:00] Colin Cohen: No, the orange card, you know.
[00:31:02] Mike Riley: A great way to control the game.
[00:31:04] Colin Cohen: I take the view that we're doing, we have social football here in Hong Kong, if players want to play social football. And what's quite interesting, last season, we were having kids, school girls and boys, running as assistant referees. And some of the elder statesmen of the football community here who play on the social games took to the view, they used to abuse me, but they couldn't get away with it.
[00:31:24] Colin Cohen: But shouting abuse at the assistants was not on. And I said to them, right, off you go, you can only come on in 10 minutes and then you have to apologize to everyone. Of course. They were too proud to apologize, so he didn't play any more football. So I said that afternoon, was that how you want to spend your Friday evening?
[00:31:41] Colin Cohen: That worked brilliantly I can tell you that.
[00:31:43] Mike Riley: Well I'm taking the apology approach to IFA, see if we can get it into the laws of the game.
[00:31:46] Colin Cohen: You're about to take up this new role in Ireland as head of the refereeing of the Irish Football Association. And how did that come about a little bit?
[00:31:53] Colin Cohen: And what was your role going to be with all of that? Tell us more.
[00:31:57] Mike Riley: So again, I've had a long affinity with referees in Northern Ireland. Various friendships over the years, and I've been out there quite a few times to watch matches and help coach referees.
[00:32:05] Mike Riley: So their former head of refereeing retired last summer and they've been looking for somebody to replace him. When they came, they hadn't actually found anybody come recently. So I agreed that I would come across and help not only in the head of refereeing role, but fundamentally help them to find internal candidates to take on that role over the next two to three years.
[00:32:25] Mike Riley: So it's really a sort of three pronged approach in looking after the elite referees and trying to help them develop them. And help them to keep pace actually with the development of the league in Northern Ireland which has taken off enormously. Also then to put developmental pathways in place to identify young talent coming through and help that flourish.
[00:32:43] Mike Riley: And at the same time to look at the structures and the resources that they have there and improve all of those. So I'm fortunate in a way that I get to come in and help shape the next stage of development to refereeing Northern Ireland. I've got some great people alongside me to help me do that as well.
[00:32:58] Colin Cohen: It sounds like a great project. And now finally, you're vastly experienced, you've seen it all in the game, you've seen all the changes. We've got Saudi Arabia spending huge sums of monies, an expanded club World Cup. Where do you think football is heading?
[00:33:14] Mike Riley: The one great thing about football is it never stands still. And you look at all the things that you've talked about, most of them happening this summer, and it just generates a sense of excitement. More resource into the game. You take the Wrexham story as one example, where from a small investment, realising the potential there, to becoming a worldwide story that just captivates people who Probably traditionally never even thought about football as something that was interesting.
[00:33:37] Mike Riley: There's great opportunities and potential. But equally there are dangers as well, because we have to protect the essence and the spirit of the game. Because that's the thing that draws people into it. One of the great things about the Premier League is its competitiveness. So on any given day, any club can beat anybody.
[00:33:52] Mike Riley: You can't predict all the promotion plays, all the relegation plays, until really late in the season. So as long as we retain that sense of competitiveness, that sense of fun in football, I think some of these changes will be good for the game.
[00:34:05] Colin Cohen: I think I entirely agree with you. Mike, it's a pleasure and honor speaking with you.
[00:34:10] Colin Cohen: Thank you so much for being with us on Law & More.