In this episode, we are delighted to be joined by one of Hong Kong’s premier criminal defence lawyers, Jonathan Midgley. In a wide-ranging discussion, Jonathan reflects on his early days in Hong Kong, recalls some of his most notable cases, and voices his unequivocal support for the city’s rule of law. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned.
00:32 Introduction
01:08 Recent Activities and Personal Experiences
02:05 Early Life and Education
03:42 Journey into Law
05:11 Early Career and Move to Hong Kong
08:08 Experiences in Hong Kong's Legal System
12:47 Views on Representing Accused Persons
20:58 Acting Career and Love for Music
23:49 Views on Hong Kong's Current Situation
Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter
In this episode, we are delighted to be joined by one of Hong Kong’s premier criminal defence lawyers, Jonathan Midgley. In a wide-ranging discussion, Jonathan reflects on his early days in Hong Kong, recalls some of his most notable cases, and voices his unequivocal support for the city’s rule of law. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned.
00:32 Introduction
01:08 Recent Activities and Personal Experiences
02:05 Early Life and Education
03:42 Journey into Law
05:11 Early Career and Move to Hong Kong
08:08 Experiences in Hong Kong's Legal System
12:47 Views on Representing Accused Persons
20:58 Acting Career and Love for Music
23:49 Views on Hong Kong's Current Situation
Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter
[00:00:32] Colin Cohen: Today, I'm speaking with someone I prefer to describe not as a rival, but as a distinguished contemporary, Jonathan Midgley. For more than four decades, Jonathan has been widely recognized as one of Hong Kong's premier criminal defense lawyers, representing a string of high profile defendants in some of the city's most famous cases.
[00:00:57] Colin Cohen: Our paths have crossed. Numerous times. But, professionally and socially, I'm delighted he's able to join us here on Law & More. Jonathan, welcome. And I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?
[00:01:12] Jonathan Midgley: I know you always ask your guests that, so I was prepared. Actually, it's easy for me because I was spending some time flying through the air recently entirely involuntarily I was in the Mediterranean two or three weeks ago when I hit what I think most people will know is called a sleeping policeman.
[00:01:32] Jonathan Midgley: That's a bump in the road to slow people down and it did, but not until I'd hit the tarmac rather hard. So my most recent notable achievement was to learn to fly. Although I crashed as quickly as the Wright brothers.
[00:01:45] Colin Cohen: Recovering quickly.
[00:01:46] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah, thanks. I can't lean on my elbow today. My left elbow still hurts. And there's a bit of a problem with my left leg. And a few other things. Yeah, we're okay. Yeah, I'm told I sort of look as if I'm vaguely better.
[00:01:59] Colin Cohen: That's very, very good news.
[00:02:00] Jonathan Midgley: and thank you for having me, by the way.
[00:02:02] Colin Cohen: It's a great pleasure having
[00:02:03] Jonathan Midgley: you, and thank you for your introduction. I appreciate it.
[00:02:05] Colin Cohen: Anyway, let's go back in time and tell me a little bit about your school days, your university, how you came to enter law.
[00:02:13] Jonathan Midgley: Right. How far should we go back? Well, school, it was quite interesting my start because I went to school called Molsis, which was a prep school near Keithley in Yorkshire, because I'm from Yorkshire.
[00:02:25] Jonathan Midgley: And the headmaster was a fellow called Bernard Gadney, who actually played Rugby for England. And so I started my career as a student there, more or less and very quickly my mother received a letter from Bernard Gadney. I think I was probably aged eight and a half or nine by then, who said, we regret to tell you that we don't think that Jonathan will ever pass an exam in his life.
[00:02:47] Colin Cohen: You're mother must have given you a hard time.
[00:02:50] Jonathan Midgley: So, he recommended I went to a less academically pushy school and I did. So I went to somewhere called Martin Hall up on the North Coast in Yorkshire and spent more time cycling, bicycling and playing cricket and football and rugby and things. And I think that did me good. But then I went to a school in Hampshire where I actually met a number of people that I've been good friends, and actually clients, here. So I attended a school there. And then on from there to become a graduate in law by attending Manchester. But it wasn't Manchester University. In these days it is. It's Manchester Metropolitan University. But in those days it was Manchester Polytechnic. And I did that because I had to cram for my A Levels. Otherwise I'd have proved Bernard Gardner correct. So I was sent to a crammer and passed two A levels in six months which allowed me to commence a legal education at Manchester.
[00:03:42] Colin Cohen: Did you always want to be a lawyer or were you told to do law.
[00:03:44] Jonathan Midgley: I'll tell you what happened. I was contemplating sort of the police force or the merchant navy because I'd passed no exams.
[00:03:50] Jonathan Midgley: I was doing well as far as Bernard Gardner was concerned. I was right on track. I passed five O levels I think at school. And then I went to this crammer, and then I passed the A levels. But what inspired me to actually put my foot down on the floor and accelerate, was I said to Dad, look, I don't really want to be a policeman, actually.
[00:04:06] Jonathan Midgley: And I'm not very keen at going to sea, so I don't want to be a merchant in the Navy. And by the way, he'd offered me a post in his company, which is an old family company, which I declined. And he said, well, I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll send you to a pal of mine who's an estate agent, you can try a day there, and I'll send you to a pal of mine that's also a lawyer, solicitor in a firm in Leeds, and so I spent a day there.
[00:04:25] Jonathan Midgley: And I wasn't very impressed with the estate agent job, I sort of got my shoes dusty and measured rooms, but the day with the fellow called Peter Fingrette, he was called, he ended up as a judge.
[00:04:35] Jonathan Midgley: With him was wonderful and he was a criminal defense lawyer and he took me to Wakefield Magistrates Court and we went down to the cells and then up into court and he did his thing.
[00:04:45] Jonathan Midgley: Then we went off to lunch at Leeds Club or somewhere and I went home and said Dad I really want to be a solicitor this looks like good fun to me. And he said well you'll have to pass some exams. I said really? And that's when I started to work
[00:04:57] Colin Cohen: You did defeat the examiners the end.
[00:04:59] Jonathan Midgley: I ended up, I think it was 27 exams to become a solicitor of the High Court of both England and Wales, Hong Kong.
[00:05:07] Colin Cohen: Well, you were automatically admitted in Hong Kong.
[00:05:09] Jonathan Midgley: In those days, yes, yes.
[00:05:11] Colin Cohen: How long did you work in Leeds before you came out to Hong For
[00:05:14] Jonathan Midgley: About 10 minutes really. I did my articles with a firm called Hepworth and Chadwick that later became part of Evershed's.
[00:05:19] Colin Cohen: Yes.
[00:05:20] Jonathan Midgley: It was a proper firm. I remember when I qualified, a fellow called John Heaps, who I've known all my life, who ended up as managing partner of Evershed, told my principal, a fellow called Tony Leach at Hepworth Shadwick, that I'd passed and become a lawyer.
[00:05:33] Jonathan Midgley: And apparently, what he said in return, I better not repeat.
[00:05:37] Colin Cohen: So, what type of law were you doing in...
[00:05:39] Jonathan Midgley: In those days.
[00:05:40] Colin Cohen: In those days? Yes, whilst you were in England.
[00:05:42] Jonathan Midgley: Well I did a bit of civil obviously and matrimonial. When it came to conveyancing I really couldn't do it. So they put me in a branch office, in somewhere I think called Cross Keys from memory. And I played backgammon.
[00:05:54] Jonathan Midgley: I spent six months, instead of doing conveyancing law, backgammon. And I hope the Law Society won't strike me off as a result of never quite mastering conveyancing law. I couldn't stand it Colin, could you?
[00:06:04] Colin Cohen: Had to do it. Didn't like it.
[00:06:06] Jonathan Midgley: Yes, I managed to...
[00:06:07] Colin Cohen: I don't like it at all.
[00:06:09] Jonathan Midgley: It's not our thing, is it? Not in our DNA at all.
[00:06:11] Colin Cohen: How did you get to Hong Kong? I know you arrived in 78.
[00:06:15] Colin Cohen: What brought you here?
[00:06:17] Jonathan Midgley: So I'd met a fellow called Ray Black,
[00:06:19] Colin Cohen: Yeah, I know Ray very well, yeah.
[00:06:21] Jonathan Midgley: And I'd met him at the College of Law, and we were a sort of kindred spirits, and we went out, you know, night clubbing and other stuff.
[00:06:28] Colin Cohen: Doing normal things that one does.
[00:06:29] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah, that tended to slow your academic progress down a bit. This was all at Guilford College of Law.
[00:06:34] Colin Cohen: Yes, I was there as well.
[00:06:35] Jonathan Midgley: Good fun actually and some hard work, And anyway, we both agreed that we'd like to get out of England. England was in of throes of, I think it was just about pre-Thatcher. And the benefits of the European community hadn't yet kicked in. And we thought it was pretty third world and we decided to leave. And he got offered a job here with Bacon McKenzie. And he told me, you know, if you don't come you're mad. It's more fun than you can believe. And so I parked up a Renault 4 in London a flight. And and I was interviewed and got a job and that was it.
[00:07:04] Colin Cohen: To Hong Kong on speculation and you got a job whilst you were here.
[00:07:08] Jonathan Midgley: It was a real flyer.
[00:07:09] Colin Cohen: And tell us about that.
[00:07:09] Jonathan Midgley: Well, it was, it was worrying. So I was offered a job with someone called John Ip. I think he's still in business, And and I saw legal aid, I think. Can't think why, but Warwick Haldane said he was looking for somebody and this came to Ray Black's notice, so to the Hilton Hotel, to the coffee shop, I think it was the espresso or something, yeah.
[00:07:28] Jonathan Midgley: And this fellow interviewed me and he spent the whole interview really talking about women and soccer and cricket and everything other than law. And after about half an hour he said, By the way, what do you know about... The White Book, because I hope people listening will know the White Book's all about civil law.
[00:07:44] Colin Cohen: Yes.
[00:07:45] Jonathan Midgley: But I wasn't going to be put off by the question, advocate here. But I wasn't put off and I immediately answered him sensibly I think by saying, That's the thick one isn't it? And he said, Yes, you're right, you've got the job.
[00:07:55] Colin Cohen: Excellent.
[00:07:56] Jonathan Midgley: True story,
[00:07:58] Colin Cohen: You started work in Hong Kong. Tell me a little about your early days at Holdings. Who was there?
[00:08:03] Jonathan Midgley: Well, it was Warwick and, and a fellow called Richard Cappo, who still lives in Hong Kong actually.
[00:08:07] Colin Cohen: And he went into Monroe's and he's a great personal injury lawyer.
[00:08:10] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah. So Richard was in one corner and I was out in Kowloon. In those days it was a very shabby office.
[00:08:17] Jonathan Midgley: I mean, it was linoleum everywhere and a reception chairs and. Most of them had three legs and propped up by books and things like that.
[00:08:25] Colin Cohen: So, those early days, your impressions of Hong Kong, how did you find the work, what were you doing?
[00:08:29] Jonathan Midgley: Well, I immediately loved it, I have to tell you. In fact, Ray very kindly put me up in a flat. Yeah, a huge flat he had, in McDonnell Road. And I stayed there for a while. And I remember a night in Wanchai, because he had a share already, he'd only been there six months, a share in a speedboat called Lochheim.
[00:08:45] Colin Cohen: Water skiing.
[00:08:46] Jonathan Midgley: That's water skiing, yes, for those that have got any doubts, Lochheim, and then I became a partner in that. used to run a lot down Bowen Road.
[00:08:53] Colin Cohen: What about your law? Did you do any law?
[00:08:55] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah, I did some work.
[00:08:58] Jonathan Midgley: yeah, I immediately got thrown into the magistrate's court. And in those days you'd run around, you wouldn't do a case, you do a mitigation and a bail application.
[00:09:08] Jonathan Midgley: And someone's holding your papers in another court, you race trial. So I did, two or three or even four appearances a day. So you cut your teeth very fast, very quickly indeed. And if you were going to have any skills at all, you'd gain them in that way.
[00:09:21] Jonathan Midgley: And that's all gone. Of course, we could spend a whole podcast talking about and lamenting the way, after the legal aides, the law society scheme. Yeah. it wrecked it.
[00:09:30] Colin Cohen: Well, we were controlled by the clerks. Because when I came in 81, and we were doing our law. Mr. Cohen, you've got three things to do, not worry about anything. And of course they were talking to the clients, getting, let's say, whatever X dollars from the clients, and that's giving us a measly sum, which we thought was very good. I was giving it, back in the firm.
[00:09:49] Colin Cohen: Was your lucky break, did you have a lucky break to get a big case? which anyway set you up? Tell us about that, and I'll tell you about my lucky break.
[00:09:55] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah, no, we all need luck, don't we? We really do. And what happened was this, that Warwick had already got his firm, Haldane's going.
[00:10:02] Jonathan Midgley: It was gaining a reputation. But, it was undoubtedly second to Hampton, Winter and Glynn. Hampton, Winter and Glynn were the premier criminal law firm.
[00:10:11] Jonathan Midgley: And there was a case, the first commercial crime case in Hong Kong, was brought against a fellow called Amos Daw.
[00:10:18] Colin Cohen: If I recollect.
[00:10:18] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah, I think you're right.
[00:10:19] Colin Cohen: That's when I arrived.
[00:10:20] Jonathan Midgley: Okay, so he was called Famous Amos. And he was being extradited from San Francisco. And a fellow called Cliff Pilefsky, who I think is still in practice, because I Googled him not long ago. And should call him to say hello. A fellow called Cliff Polovski, with long curly corkscrew hair and cowboy boots and the whole thing, was representing Amos Dorr in San Francisco. And Hampton, Gordon Hampton, flew over to go and meet Amos Dorr in San Francisco, and just as he was knocking on the door, he got a message from his firm saying we act for Moscow Norodny Bank and it's part of the allegation. It's an important part of the allegation, we're conflicted. And Cliff Valesky and his firm did some research and we came up, Trump's.
[00:11:06] Jonathan Midgley: I don't like the word Trump anymore. We'll talk about that later if you like. So we came up top of the pile and we took on the case and we won it. And it had worldwide publicity. I mean, it was extraordinary.
[00:11:18] Colin Cohen: So, then you got the reputation and the firm expanded. Because you've always been like myself.
[00:11:24] Colin Cohen: I worked for a very small firm, Robertson, well, a big firm now. I worked for a couple at Robertson Double and those before I set up my law firm.
[00:11:31] Jonathan Midgley: Yes.
[00:11:32] Colin Cohen: You were from Haldane's Warwick from day one, and you're the senior partner of your firm, but we're not the managing partners, are we?
[00:11:38] Jonathan Midgley: No, No, no, we let others manage.,
[00:11:40] Colin Cohen: Yes.
[00:11:40] Jonathan Midgley: And I should say for all those years, or many of those years, Colin, I've always suggested we actually combine forces, but it never happened. We're probably too independent, really.
[00:11:48] Colin Cohen: I remember when we first met and it was never crossing swords.
[00:11:51] Colin Cohen: Well, we did cross swords once and we'll talk about it a little bit later. And it wasn't a bad sword, but we did cross. But, in the early days, in Hong Kong, and that time in 81, 82, Carrion and all those matters, I got my lucky break by a phone call from my dad's friend.
[00:12:07] Colin Cohen: My late father, he was in the synagogue sitting next to someone else and he knew someone who was facing extradition in London. Hashim Samsuddin. And then somehow I got introduced to the family, and then he came back voluntarily at George Carman and then from that break, I got the other case, the Lorraine Osman case, the longest extradition battle ever. And so, you're in the right place at the right time, and then, I came out to Hong Kong in 81, slightly younger than you, just a couple of years younger.
[00:12:37] Jonathan Midgley: Are you still younger?
[00:12:38] Colin Cohen: I hope so, I hope so. In the work you do and I do, we have lots of very... Interesting clients, and and it's all the criminal law.
[00:12:47] Colin Cohen: And everyone asks me, and I probably ask you the same, I acted for people, murderers, drugs, and all the rest. How can we act for these people? Do we have any empathy for our clients? I mean, what's your secret of all, you're doing nothing but criminal law, because you have been doing criminal law from the very beginning. you ever find yourself, worried or do you feel bad at the end of each day, or do you feel great,
[00:13:08] Jonathan Midgley: So, the answer to that is that first of all, I recognize that our system allows for, in fact, encourages and demands that even people that look as if they're guilty of dreadful crimes sometimes, that they're entitled to representation.
[00:13:23] Jonathan Midgley: So, others will judge them and others will prosecute them, but they're entitled to a defense lawyer. So, I can rest easy with the concept that everyone deserves to be represented in court, that's the first thing. The second thing is that my character it veers towards wanting to help the underdog in all aspects of life.
[00:13:44] Jonathan Midgley: In fact, I've told the story before that I find myself... When I'm by a swimming pool looking at insects drowning, my first instinct is to go in and save that insect, and I do. And it's often occurred to me that that's a sort of litmus test for the way in which I perceive life and the need to help people that are really in trouble.
[00:14:05] Jonathan Midgley: And you'll know, Colin, as I do, it's a dreadfully difficult time. For people who are charged, accused of being criminal.
[00:14:13] Colin Cohen: A very serious criminal offense. And I mean, I think the recent podcast I did with Ed Fitzgerald, he summed it all up. Everyone needs to be looked after. Everyone has that bit of good in them, no matter how bad, how evil. I mean, some are pretty evil who we've acted for, but some are not. And the system does not work. And that's what I try to say to everyone today, unless we take up. Every single case. Everyone needs us to at least represent them and to put the best case forward for them.
[00:14:43] Jonathan Midgley: Yes, I heard the podcast with Ed and I agree, I thoroughly agree that I've learnt this. Somebody put it this way once to me. If someone drinks too much, they get labelled an alcoholic. But they're much more than that. They're not just alcoholics. That might be their problem, it may be their sickness. Far more as human beings than that. And most people that get a criminal record, most people, are far more than just criminals. And I've met people that have been accused of awful crimes. And I can still end up being friends with them and liking them. Not all, definitely not all. But I've known people that have gone through the mill and come out the other end and and I've admired much about them. And if they found guilty of the crime, I wouldn't admire that. But I'd often admire their fortitude in coming through it.
[00:15:33] Colin Cohen: Now, you're on record as saying that you've only ever prosecuted someone once and you didn't enjoy it. What was that all about, Mr. Midgley?
[00:15:43] Jonathan Midgley: Okay, I was asked to prosecute something and I thought, well, look, at least once in a lifetime, let's do it once. So I can at least say I've prosecuted. And it was a district court trial and it was something to do with Loris. That's all I can remember, it's a long time. And I remember that I got a conviction.
[00:16:00] Jonathan Midgley: And I remember thinking, I shouldn't have got that conviction. If he had been defended in a different way, and I won't repeat who was defending, this barrister. He should have been acquitted. And I felt bad about that. In a way that I don't feel bad if we win a case as a defense lawyer, and the system allows him to be set free afterwards, he's acquitted. I don't feel bad about that, even if I think to myself. Okay, you lucky so and so because really it didn't look that good. But one of the things you'll know Colin is, we don't represent people who are at a trial. Except in very rare circumstances that never occur. We don't represent them if we know they're guilty because they've told us something that shows it.
[00:16:38] Colin Cohen: Yeah, we're not allowed to.
[00:16:39] Jonathan Midgley: We're not allowed to.
[00:16:40] Colin Cohen: We did cross swords where you did prosecute someone. And I was on the other side. This was a private prosecution. For our listeners, it's very, very rare that you can have private prosecution. In England, it's quite common, but in Hong Kong, really rare. And this is where you prosecuted the two Indian gentlemen. You prosecuted, I defended, and we're in the magistrate's court, and you were getting up, waxing lyrical, saying this is what my person had done A, B, C, D and E and I get up, and the magistrate kept on looking at you and I. But in the end of the day, if you recollect, we just got together. That was a good case. I remember you doing that one as well.
[00:17:18] Jonathan Midgley: Resolving things is good.
[00:17:20] Colin Cohen: Yeah, that's good. Now, you're also a solicitor advocate. For the benefit of our listeners, tell us a little bit about that.
[00:17:28] Jonathan Midgley: Right, I'm also actually a solicitor advocate in England and Wales, that started it. And what you need to do to get that is to get people to purjure themselves by saying that you're up to it.
[00:17:41] Colin Cohen: You're the final survivor. But just help our listeners, it's basically solicitors have the right to appear in a high court and do trial.
[00:17:47] Jonathan Midgley: That's what it involves. So it it elevates you effectively to the rights of a Barrister.
[00:17:51] Colin Cohen: I have a rights of appearances in criminal trials in the high court. 'cause you're a criminal advocate.
[00:17:56] Jonathan Midgley: I'm a criminal advocate, not a civil.
[00:17:57] Colin Cohen: You wouldn't get through to that one on the civil side.
[00:17:59] Jonathan Midgley: No, no, I wouldn't. Despite knowing the white book's thick, I wouldn't. The answer, therefore, is that you become as if you were a barrister. You have the right for jury trials. I've never had a jury trial, by the way. I'd like to have a jury trial. But legal aid doesn't seem to recognize, sadly, Solicitors and their ability to conduct a jury trial.
[00:18:17] Jonathan Midgley: And the private bar, I mean, they don't exist, really.
[00:18:21] Colin Cohen: So, as an advocate, you've appeared a lot in the high court, or not really,
[00:18:25] Jonathan Midgley: Well, I've used it, occasionally. I think occasionally rather than a lot. I had one particularly interesting appeal where I actually co defended it with Jeff Booth, who is also a Solicitor Advocate.
[00:18:36] Jonathan Midgley: Anyway, I think there's only four of us, five of us perhaps in Hong Kong. And Haldane's has two, myself and Jeff Booth. So we conducted a full appeal. For a client, jointly. And that was fun, actually. It was fun, and the court was very courteous and kind to us. And we won, which is important.
[00:18:54] Colin Cohen: I had very sort of high profile cases. one which I've always been intrigued, which you were heavily involved in, was the Nina Wang.
[00:19:02] Colin Cohen: Yeah, the Nina Wang case. Which resulted in forgery of wills and all the rest. And it went on for ages. These big cases take a lot out of us. You're always, always there. Can I tell our listeners a little bit about that.
[00:19:13] Jonathan Midgley: Well, I can, but I would say this, that the case that followed it, that was very much linked to it, was the Tony chan case. which when talking about taking it out of you, that was the one that actually,
[00:19:23] Jonathan Midgley: As I joked in front of a court once when I was asked as a witness whether the Tony Chan case had been stressful, I said, well, let's put it this way. Before that case, I had dark hair and now it's silver.
[00:19:35] Jonathan Midgley: The judge intervened and said I was going to be done for perjury because he knew it had been silver for a long time. And so Nina Wang came in and she was accused, you'll recall, of forging her late husband Teddy, his will. That was the allegation.
[00:19:51] Jonathan Midgley: He was kidnapped twice. So she had to go through quite a lot of inquiries regarding that matter. So when I got hold of her, she was already fairly beaten up by the law. She had a long, long fight. And most of it... Before I became involved was in the civil courts. So she was an interesting client.
[00:20:09] Jonathan Midgley: She was hugely into Feng Shui, by the way. She certainly was.
[00:20:13] Colin Cohen: Of course, my connection with that case was, for the late Teddy, I acted for one of the kidnappers who was on the lookout when he got kidnapped and put on the boat and never got returned. And my guy was extradited from London, from Fenderville Prison, when I was seeing one other client of mine in there.
[00:20:31] Colin Cohen: And and he got a long time in prison. The jury didn't believe the story as well.
[00:20:35] Jonathan Midgley: I didn't know you acted for him.
[00:20:36] Colin Cohen: Yeah, I acted for one of the people in that case.
[00:20:39] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah, everybody is interested in the Nina Wang case, as they are with the Tony Chan case. Those are the two that I get asked about.
[00:20:45] Colin Cohen: Yes, I get asked about mine quite a few as well. But anyway, that's for another day and that's for another...
[00:20:51] Jonathan Midgley: Well we're going to invite you on our podcast.
[00:20:52] Colin Cohen: Oh, that's going to be quite exciting. We can do that as well. I want to move a little bit into, other things you do. You acted a little bit.
[00:20:59] Colin Cohen: I remember that as well. You were very proud of that. Your brief acting career.
[00:21:02] Jonathan Midgley: My brief acting career. Yeah, I got a phone call one day and I was asked if I would have lunch with a fellow called Wayne Wang. He did the Joy Lock Club and things like that. And he was a producer and I said, why?
[00:21:16] Jonathan Midgley: And I was told, well, there was a film going to be shot in Hong Kong and it was going to star Jeremy Irons and what was she called? The lady actress. A very famous lady actress. yeah. Anyway, so I said, yeah, that sounds very interesting.
[00:21:30] Colin Cohen: Oh, Gong Li.
[00:21:31] Jonathan Midgley: Gong Li, you're right, it's a long time ago. So I had the lunch and that went well apparently and then I had lunch with Wen Wang and Jeremy Irons. And it was quite interesting because I wasn't a walk on, I got a reference in the website which has references, actors. I'm now an actor by profession apparently. And it was very interesting. You'd spend most of your time waiting. I was involved for two days and one night for about one minute's worth of... But I did get a speaking part.
[00:21:58] Colin Cohen: That's great.
[00:21:58] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah, I enjoyed it. It was obviously a bit of a thrill, you know.
[00:22:01] Colin Cohen: Well, Only once.
[00:22:02] Jonathan Midgley: Only once, yes, hollywood didn't come calling again. I actually shared the dressing room with a fellow called Ruben Bladis, who was both known as a singer. And as an actor, and I think ultimately a politician. Somewhere in South America.
[00:22:15] Colin Cohen: Also, we are good friends, and I come around to your place and you have the reputation of the best music system in Hong Kong It's Audio Note. I'll give a plug for that. you have the best sound systems. What took you into that?
[00:22:26] Jonathan Midgley: Yeah, the answer to that is that I've always loved music. I can't play an instrument and I certainly can't sing. But I love music and it fills up my life a great deal. And, came a time when I had enough money to buy a really decent system. And I bought a system. I won't say whose system it was because I junked it very quickly and didn't like it. I said, this is an awful lot of money, but it doesn't really satisfy me.
[00:22:48] Jonathan Midgley: It doesn't convey the emotion of music. And at that point I learned about a company called Audionote Japan. Audionote Japan is now known as Kondo.
[00:22:57] Jonathan Midgley: And I bought a system. And people used to come round for dinner, and they used to go, God, that's fantastic. This is better than anything I've ever heard. Can I get one?
[00:23:05] Jonathan Midgley: I said, yeah, I'll speak to the people that sell them. So, I was responsible for about three sales, at which point they came to me and said, Listen, will you become our agent, please? Will you become our distributor? Because you sell more than our agent. And I said, no, three times, but on the third, fourth time of asking, I said alright, because it didn't seem right as a criminal defense lawyer, but I said yes eventually, and I ran it from home, very much as a hobby, and it's still a hobby business today. But I enjoy it immensely, and it means that I get, as you say, I hope some of the best equipment available.
[00:23:36] Colin Cohen: And now people are moving back to records. I noticed that when I was in Europe, people are buying the records.
[00:23:41] Jonathan Midgley: Yes.
[00:23:42] Colin Cohen: Not the CD ROMs, the actual records themselves.
[00:23:45] Jonathan Midgley: That's right, the old Vinyls.
[00:23:46] Colin Cohen: Vinyls, that's one as well. Okay. Jon, you and I have been in Hong Kong for a very, very long time. Recently, a few, four years ago, we witnessed all the troubles, both your firm and my firm have acted for many of the rioters in the cases, in the district courts and all the rest, and it's been interesting times, put it that way, where we are now. Your home is now Hong Kong. All cities change over the years. Your take on things at the moment?
[00:24:10] Jonathan Midgley: It's a big answer. But I'll condense it. You're absolutely right, all cities change and Hong Kong has changed since 1978 every year since I've been here. And sometimes we like the changes and sometimes changes occur which we say, Look, if we were in charge, we wouldn't go with those changes.
[00:24:26] Jonathan Midgley: And that's true over the 45, 46 years I've been here. And the fact of the matter is that Hong Kong gets a bad rap at the moment. It's as simple as that. And nearly all of it's from the West. Western politicians, both in America and in London particularly. And I don't think it's fair to the city.
[00:24:45] Jonathan Midgley: I think it diminishes the city when it should not be diminished. And it's relatively quiet now, partly because people are put off coming here very often because of the bad press. I thought you'd ask me this question, and I was just thinking as I considered it yesterday. Take a look at America, trump, who I mentioned earlier. Different context. I was minded to mention that the way he treats the clerks of the court and the judge, which ended up in a restraint order, is extraordinary. Nobody would possibly get away with it here, but then the court further up the chain actually revokes the restraint order.
[00:25:22] Jonathan Midgley: And effectively says, you're not doing anything wrong and you can continue. Well, if that's the rule of law, then it's a very different rule of law to the one that you and I used to call it. And, in London, we've got Rwanda. And the Supreme Court, as you know in London, has just ruled that Rwanda is not a fit and proper place for immigrants to be shipped to.
[00:25:42] Colin Cohen: Well, what they because if they go to Rwanda and they then have to hear their cases, they think they'll be shipped back to their origins because they haven't got a very good record in dealing with their origins.
[00:25:52] Jonathan Midgley: That's right.
[00:25:52] Colin Cohen: Which I think everyone knows that anyway.
[00:25:54] Jonathan Midgley: Correct. So, what amazed me and it actually caused me to write a letter to the current Prime Minister, saying, look, it makes you ashamed to be English. Because we keep telling the world that we respect the rule of law, but you don't. You're now saying we're going to get round this. We're going to get around it any old way we choose, including quote, changing the facts.
[00:26:16] Jonathan Midgley: I mean, that upsets me. And I think that the issue is this. That around the world, there are some very bad examples of the rule of law in practice. And I think that in the round, certainly for the cases that I've been involved in, the courts work in a functional way. They still operate in the way that I expect them to operate.
[00:26:37] Colin Cohen: I mean, we're co defending in a case and whatever we can say, the court, you have your fights in court, you put your cases, the rule of law is working, the case is being dealt with fairly.
[00:26:48] Jonathan Midgley: It's before a jury. The judge is allowing the case to proceed in the normal way. And so my confidence in Hong Kong remains. Do we prefer it at one time in its history against another? Many people will say, I prefer it now, if it happens to suit them, in its Chinese incarnation.
[00:27:07] Jonathan Midgley: And some will prefer it in the past. It's not really relevant. The fact of the matter is that most young people coming from London or Rome or New York are going to say when they arrive here, What on earth is the Western press on about? Hong Kong's great. I want to stay.
[00:27:23] Colin Cohen: So your home is here?
[00:27:24] Jonathan Midgley: Yes.
[00:27:24] Colin Cohen: You will stay here.
[00:27:25] Jonathan Midgley: Yes.
[00:27:26] Colin Cohen: Unequivocally.
[00:27:27] Jonathan Midgley: Unequivocally. I mean, as you do Colin, you and I are very similar in this regard. We like our travels. There are lovely parts of the world we enjoy being in, but Hong Kong remains the home.
[00:27:37] Colin Cohen: Always coming back to Hong Kong.
[00:27:39] Jonathan Midgley: It's our home.
[00:27:40] Colin Cohen: Yeah, the place works. Our roots are here. We've been here. You've been here a little bit longer than I have. Four more years, five more years, you're in the courts all the time, I'm in the courts, I'm watching the judiciary. I honestly think that it's changed, more cases are now done in Cantonese, rightly so. Yes. I agree entirely with that.
[00:28:00] Colin Cohen: It's inevitable, and it's the right way in the magistrate's court, even the district court. And yet, whenever I go to court, I've never had an issue. Have you?
[00:28:07] Jonathan Midgley: I never have.
[00:28:08] Colin Cohen: All the judges are very polite. Maybe because we're a little bit older, than they are. But they're all polite.
[00:28:14] Jonathan Midgley: That's true. And I hope that they'll continue to be robust. I mean, as I've said, look at England and you see the government being difficult. And governments can be difficult. The question always is, will the courts perform their duty in making sure the law is applied? Politics is for politicians.
[00:28:31] Jonathan Midgley: The law remains for lawyers, and the Courts.
[00:28:34] Colin Cohen: And today, there was a judgment from the Court of Final Appeal allowing the appeal, this was the professor who put the yoga ball full of carbon monoxide and has ordered a retrial owing to the fact, basically it was a misdirection.
[00:28:47] Jonathan Midgley: Yes.
[00:28:47] Colin Cohen: And that really shows that the Court of Final Appeal with its judges are excellent. We are the rule of law is the basic cornerstone of Hong Kong, I feel, at the moment, still.
[00:28:57] Jonathan Midgley: I agree with you on that. I think that the Court of Final Appeal has been a credit and does great service to Hong Kong over the years.
[00:29:04] Colin Cohen: Jonathan, I've enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More.
[00:29:11] Jonathan Midgley: Thank you for having me.