Episode 36 - Tim Bredbury

In this episode, we welcome former footballer Tim Bredbury for a fascinating chat about his career and his thoughts on the game as it is today. Tim, born in Hong Kong, started out as a young professional with Liverpool in England before going on to play with notable success in Hong Kong, Australia and Malaysia for almost two decades. Since then, he’s enjoyed various roles in the game, including coaching, marketing and working in the media. 

 00:31 Introduction and Guest Background
 01:00 Tim Bradbury's Current Endeavors
 01:40 Early Life and Upbringing
 03:10 Football Career Beginnings
 03:57 Experience at Liverpool
 06:16 Return to Hong Kong and Football Career Progression
 12:44 Transition to Coaching and Managing
 14:11 Assessment of Hong Kong Football
 19:57 Views on VAR in Football
 22:07 Current Work in Malaysia and Future Plans
 25:31 Premier League Predictions
 26:34 Conclusion and Farewell 

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter       

Transcript

[00:31:00] Colin Cohen: In this episode, I am delighted to be joined by Tim Bradbury, who has been an integrable part of the football landscape for some four decades. Tim started out as a young professional, English Giants, Liverpool before going on to enjoy a successful playing career. Mainly in Hong Kong, but also in Australia and Malaysia. Recently, he's been a football coach, a manager, and also works in TV marketing, business development. Tim, welcome to our podcast. And as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?

[00:31:33] Tim Bredbury: Hi, Colin. Thank you very much for the opportunity to chat with you. What's keeping me busy? Well, I've sort of come full circle at the moment. I'm now in Panang, Malaysia. Helping out a friend of mine who has a football business here. So he's in the process of building a new football facility.

He's got one in Penang already. So I'm helping him with the coaching side of things while he gets his other facility up and running, putting down new AstroTurf pitch, flood lighting and things like that. As you mentioned, the world of football opens up a lot of doors, a lot of opportunities and as you do, staying busy. Looking at different opportunities.

[00:32:09] Colin Cohen: That's great. Now, before I go into more detail, discussing your career and your thoughts on football issues generally, let's go back in time to your school days. Your parents came from Liverpool and you were born in Hong Kong. So tell us about your early upbringing here in Hong Kong. Your schooling as well. Start with that with us.

[00:32:28] Tim Bredbury: Sure. My father came to Hong Kong in 1962. So he was with the Merseyside Fire Brigade. So there's always a connection with Liverpool in that part of the world. Yeah, myself, Paula is the younger sister and then the twins. Robin and Chris, so all born in Hong Kong as well. And I suppose sport was the key thing around the whole family.

For my dad was a good squash player, snooker player never really saw him play any football, to be honest. My mom was very active on the squash scene as well. And, growing up in the likes of the Hong Kong Football Club, as you well know, it was just sport every day. And we were always either kicking a football around at Mansfield Road, Glen Cheddar Hall or at school, went to KG5 and walked into a very sporty school there, obviously with the likes of Dermot Reeve, who went on to play cricket for England, Mark Bailey, who was Davis Cup as well. Michael Hutchinson, yeah, a whole range of very talented sports people within the school and obviously a very strong sports profile as well.

A lot of the teachers, really encouraged the sports side of things. 

[00:33:29] Colin Cohen: You enjoyed KG5.

[00:33:31] Tim Bredbury: KG5 was good. Yes. I look back at it with a lot of fond memories on the sporting side, the academic side. I think there could have been a bit of a balance there. 

[00:33:39] Colin Cohen: Tell us a little bit more about how you got into serious football. I'm interested in that.

[00:33:44] Tim Bredbury: I played all the way through KG5 as C grade, B grade, A grade teams and we got to that stage where I was considering what was I going to be doing after school. My dad had got me into one of the hotels, so I was doing a little bit of work in the Hyatt, I think it was, in Tsim Sha Tsui.

Which is now gone, unfortunately. And I was doing a little bit of lifeguarding as well at the Hong Kong Football Club. So then completely out of the blue I was told my dad and Alec Reeve, the former headmaster at KG5, had written to both Liverpool and Everton asking whether I'd be able to go there for a trial.

Now, this would never happen in obviously this day of modern football and scouts and video and all this sort of stuff, but both clubs replied, but I had to choose one of them. And Liverpool was the obvious choice. So I literally got on a plane, went and stayed with my uncle.

He dropped me off at Anfield on the first day and walked into a changing room, the reserve changing room, as opposed to the first team changing room. My main recollection from there was getting onto the bus and you went from Anfield down to Melwood, which was the training ground, which is about 15, 20 minute bus ride.

But just sitting at the front of the bus. And the next thing, the first team start to get on and. McDermott, Dalgleish, Souness, Hanson, Clements, Neal, Kennedy, all these players just started to get on, move towards the back of the bus. And that was the opening experience, let's say, and I was very, very fortunate.

I was supposed to be there for two weeks. It ended up being three. And then they offered me a contract as an apprentice professional. Which was in some ways, obviously a great opportunity from a footballing point of view, but also a little bit of cheap labor for the club because then you're involved in, putting all the kit away, cleaning boots doing the big baths and all that sort of stuff as well.

But a great learning experience and obviously a great club to go to to set a standard going forward.

[00:35:30] Colin Cohen: And you were paid for that. I hear a princely sum of between around US dollars 50 a week. I read somewhere. 

[00:35:37] Tim Bredbury: I think it worked out at, something like 38, 40 pound and then 20 of that went to wherever I was staying in term, for digs and things like that. So it was not the money that the young pros or the big pros are on at this stage now, but it was a start and it was what it was.

And as I said, I think as, as a place to go and learn your footballing trade, it was invaluable.

[00:35:58] Colin Cohen: And best memory of your time at Liverpool? Any particular memory that you can tell us about, our listeners will be interested in?

[00:36:06] Tim Bredbury: I mean, there's a few. I think I remember I scored my first goal in the reserve team and it was I think we're playing West Brom. Kevin Sheedy hit a screamer with his left foot from about 35 yards out. And I just sort of went as strikers would do. I just sort of went, following in and the goalkeeper spilled the ball and it just fell nicely to me to put it in the back of the net.

So that was my first goal at Anfield going across in 1981 to Paris to watch the European Cup final. Liverpool against Real Madrid. And Alan Kennedy, whose boots I used to clean, he managed to get the winning goal as well. So, there's lots and lots of stuff in there, great memories. 

[00:36:45] Colin Cohen: Good, you had your one year contract, Liverpool, then you made the decision to return to Hong Kong.

[00:36:50] Tim Bredbury: Sorry, it was a two year contract as an apprentice. So, 16 to 18 was your apprentice years.

[00:36:55] Colin Cohen: You became a full pro, and you had one year as a full pro. So after your free years in Liverpool, you decided to come back to Hong Kong. What brought you back to Hong Kong?

[00:37:03] Tim Bredbury: Well, there was actually a club from Hong Kong at Liverpool at the time. And I need to find out what the real story is behind all of this, but it was a team called Royden or Ling Dean as they were called. And they were looking for somebody to come and play for them.

So the initial discussion that I heard was that it was David Fairclough, but he didn't fancy it. And obviously my contract was coming to an end and the club were going to pay for me to come back. I was going to get a salary and my contract was ending anyway. So it just made sense to come back to Hong Kong at that time.

And it was only literally to play four games for this team in the second division, one being the junior Viceroy Cup Final. So I came back, I had a one month contract, and in those days, I don't know if you're familiar, the contracts had these options, and I had a one month option. So I think my first game was in the middle of Happy Valley.

Against AIA, I think we beat them 14, 0. And I scored either 12, 13 goals, something like that. So then we played the junior vice world cup final at the Hong Kong stadium and scored in that, we won that. So that was the sort of start to it. And then very fortunately, Seiko came calling after that.

And I joined the biggest club in Hong Kong.

[00:38:14] Colin Cohen: That was in 1982 onwards, roughly. cause I arrived in Hong Kong in 1981. And I could tell you this, when I came to Hong Kong, nothing on TV at that time. So the main football was at the old stadium. I do recollect going along and watching Seikos games and the other games and it was quite good 'cause the stadium was really full up and everybody was watching local football at that time. So you must have enjoyed it. They're good crowds, I remember, 

[00:38:39] Tim Bredbury: I was very fortunate as well. At that time, there were a lot of foreign players in Hong Kong. I think Seiko had, I think you could have seven or five on the pitch, seven signed and Seiko had players like Dick Nanninger, who played for Holland and scored in the World Cup final against Argentina, T. O. de Yong, who played for Holland as well. And, a host of others, David Jones, who's an English player, was at Everton and a few other clubs. So, we were playing against Boulevard who had the likes of Tommy Hutchinson, Derek Parlane I think Easton had Alan Ball, Bobby Moore was there, was their manager.

George Best made an appearance as well. So there was a whole host of players, maybe coming towards the end of their career, but, obviously talented, experienced players. And also on the field and off the field as well, to sort of get thrown in the middle of all these guys was again, a big learning experience.

[00:39:26] Colin Cohen: And you then settled into Hong Kong Premier Football for quite a few number of years.

[00:39:31] Tim Bredbury: Yeah, I did my two years at Seiko. So we won the league twice. I think we won a couple of other championships as well. I mentioned that issue about the option clause. I had an issue with Seiko, which kept me out of football for a year. Until that was resolved and then went to Rangers.

And then I had probably my most successful spell was that it was 1986 to 1990 with South China. So I think at that time we were the first club to win all the domestic trophies in one season. But it was at the time as well, they decided the FA, and Seiko had gone and Boulevard had gone because the FA had decided to ban all foreign players in Hong Kong.

But because I was a local, that, that meant I could still play there. 

 And then towards the end of the 80s, they brought back the foreign players again and the likes of Dale Tempest, John Spencer Peter Bodak and various other players, made their way back to Hong Kong.

So yeah, interesting times. And then 1991, I went to Lysun, which was a rival club to South China, and then 91, I went down to Australia, played for Sydney Olympic in what was the NSL, National Soccer League at that time, before the A League.

[00:40:38] Colin Cohen: What made you go to Australia? 

[00:40:39] Tim Bredbury: it was one of the players in Hong Kong had played with Sydney Olympic.

And I always fancied Australia as a place to maybe move to. And that would we'd go and live there forever onwards. That didn't really work out. It worked out personally. I finished joint top scorer in the league. But the clubs were very poorly run in terms of the financial side of things.

And I ended up with a sort of a big stack of bounce checks from the club. But a great experience. We had some very good players, coming through the system at that time as well. 

[00:41:05] Colin Cohen: And one thing also, you did play, which is interesting, for Hong Kong national team. And you had the opportunity of playing in the New Year Cup games against some very eminent sides, Milan, Everton, Villa, even my beloved Chelsea, if I recollect.

[00:41:20] Tim Bredbury: The games came in different ways. I think the biggest game that we played from my point of view, I think I was captain of the side on the day we played Aston Villa who had Peter Wythe and all those guys playing, and we managed to beat them 3-1 at the Hong Kong stadium.

So that was a massive game for us, we played Everton, we drew that with them 2-2, and then I think we beat them on penalties. So, at certain times we held our own and we managed to get the odd result here and there. But again, I think had I not come back to Hong Kong , most of the players at the time when they left Liverpool would sort of go to clubs in the northwest of the UK and I never really fancied doing that.

So the opportunity to come back to Hong Kong and I played against when I was at Seiko, we played against Corinthians who Socrates played for. 

South American select team that came across as well with the likes of Ed Ayer, the winger. Isidoro played for Brazil. So, playing against all these different teams and then obviously later in the likes of In Seng Dick, we had Chelsea, we had AC Milan. That sort of quality of team coming over as well.

[00:42:18] Colin Cohen: And then you had a very, very successful and distinguished career playing football. Highlight, of all your football playing career, what was your biggest highlight, would you say, in the end of the day?

[00:42:28] Tim Bredbury: I think, I think again, probably signing with Liverpool would be the main thing. As I said, in different parts, I've had good success. Obviously in Hong Kong, I think we won about seven league titles. Liverpool, I was involved in two Central League winning sides.

We won the Liverpool Cup. And we won an international tournament in the South of France as well. Australia finishing as top goal scorer, but I wasn't really there to collect anything. I'd already left to go to Malaysia. And Malaysia, again, was an interesting, all the potential is here. The crowds, the stadiums, everything is here.

There's just something that's missing in the game, but playing in front of 40, 50,000 people is not uncommon on a weekly basis. So again, it's just those experiences, I think across the whole. And the opportunity to travel and see, lots of different clubs, lots of different stadiums, lots of different countries.

[00:43:13] Colin Cohen: After retiring from playing football, you decided to go into coaching and managing. How did that happen and did you enjoy that?

[00:43:20] Tim Bredbury: I think most footballers will always look at that as a safe or the option to go into. And I got my coaching qualifications back in the UK. I got my English FA full badge as it was then, and then converted it across to the UEFA A-licence. But coaching is a strange and difficult beast to try and master.

So, unless you have that full backing from the club and you look at the successful managers over the years, the likes of Shankly, Ferguson, Paisley, in recent times, the clubs, they are the managers, they are the ones in charge. And the players don't have the power. So it really depends in your situation of coaching where the power sits. And if you're a coach with no power, then it's a very difficult job to try and be successful in. And you need time as well, because generally when you go into a coaching job, you're following in somebody else's failed footsteps, let's say.

So you're then working with their players. You're then working with their system. And again, having a strong management behind you who are looking after the players, making sure they're treated in the right way. So all these different factors and a lot of them you don't control. So it can be very exciting.

I enjoy it and I enjoy what I'm doing now. But I think taking that step away and maybe doing the training job as such, as opposed to the guy who's going to get the bullet if things don't. 

[00:44:39] Colin Cohen: Interested in this. You've got a huge amount of experience in Hong Kong Football. How do you assess the current status of Hong Kong football with the league? I know the Hong Kong football club is now in the Premier League. We're doing reasonably okay, better than anyone could be expected. The headlines of today's SCMP on the back page was the Hong Kong coach, Anderson, he wants to help out and open out access to the schools and get youngsters and build the grassroots.

Your views on Hong Kong football as a whole?

[00:45:12] Tim Bredbury: Not being too critical against Hong Kong Football Club, obviously they've gone in there and they've held their own, I would say, probably against the top four or five sides, they'll struggle most weeks, but you look at the strength of the league overall.

And if football club are finishing mid table, what are the teams below who are fully professional sides? What are they doing? I have been doing some commentary for the AFC Champions League, looking at Kitschie's home games for this season. The squad is too old, in my opinion. What tends to happen is the players stay there too long. And they move from one club to the other. They then become local players and the foreigners, Brazilian, African, wherever they're from, then start to dominate the national team as well. And I think this is where one of the problems lies, that the local players have to see a way forward.

If they're being blocked by a 36, 37, 38, 39 year old player, then the chances are, they're going to look somewhere else. I think there's more money in the game now, but is there enough for parents to want to push their kids into sport? I think you're in a very difficult environment in Hong Kong where education is such a focus for parents.

That they want their children, generally to become a lawyer, doctor, or some sort of finance career. So it's not a sports mentality, let's say like the US, UK Australia, these sorts of places where they really, they see sport as a real career path. 

[00:46:31] Colin Cohen: You went on record saying that you think that Hong Kong needs to have a team in the Chinese National League. You said that once, I read that somewhere. Do you still believe that? Do you think that could tell a little bit more of what you're thinking on that would be? 

[00:46:43] Tim Bredbury: Again, I think there's a big picture to be had here in that, unfortunately the Chinese economy and the clubs are all having trouble at the moment. So when I said it, I think that was when, League was booming in China. But I think it's a great way obviously as well that sport brings people together.

So if Hong Kong is going to be part of China, then sports and Hong Kong playing against Shanghai, Beijing, Guangdong, all these different provinces, all these cities. It's a logical step to take. And obviously there's going to be a new stadium opening at Kai Tak. And at the moment now, what's the stadium for? Is it a stadium for sport and apart from the rugby sevens, what else is going to be played there? Or is it a stadium for music lovers and concerts and things like that? So I think, the main thing for Hong Kong football is they need to be able to fill that stadium.

And the only way I see that happening, is a strong league that sits underneath a Hong Kong team that plays in the China league with players that the lower league basically has a feeder league into the Hong Kong, what you call it, let's call it the A team or Hong Kong United, whatever it might be called.

And I think there's enough money, there's enough influence, this club could be one of the biggest clubs in the world. You've got the likes of Jockey Club with very deep pockets. You've got all these corporates and, bringing up, I'm going to say like a David Beckham style personality in to develop this team and grow this team makes sense. And that's where this stadium is going to be full. If you don't do it, where are you going to get the capacity from.

[00:48:12] Colin Cohen: It is quite interesting, the sort of big headline at the moment, whetting everyone's appetite, Miami inter Beckham's team with Messi are going to arrive here in February of this year, that's the headline to the football for watching those games. Of course, whenever I go to those games, I'm always thoroughly disappointed as a football product. But you see Messi and everyone sort of jumping up and down, my daughter saying, we must get tickets, you must take my grandson there.

And I said, okay, okay, I'll go, I'll do my best. But it is a uniqueness for Hong Kong in that way. 

[00:48:44] Tim Bredbury: I think the other thing as well is that Hong Kong has a habit of paying out money. And the money leaves Hong Kong. I think there's a discussion that could be had with the likes of an Inter Miami or, these big clubs to see the big picture and for them to invest back into, let's call it Hong Kong United.

So, maybe things are afoot, maybe, who knows why Into Miami have now been invited. But I think these, as you mentioned, these teams coming across, getting paid big bucks to come and play. And maybe playing their full team for half a game, whatever. And I think those days need to change. And I think there needs to be a commitment.

To put something back into the sport rather than money, just disappearing out the door.

[00:49:25] Colin Cohen: well, I entirely agree with you. Now, since we're talking about football and we're having a very interesting discussion, we must mention that. VAR. We had the former Premier referee Mike Riley on my podcast and he was very, very much in favor of it. Myself, I used to referee.

I'm not too sure. I used to love, talking about what happens in the pub, but VAR has been used now in the Asian games here. Even in the Premier League it's starting to be used. Would you have liked VAR when you were playing?

[00:49:57] Tim Bredbury: No, with the level of games now, the competitiveness, the rewards that are out there for teams to go out on a mistake that somebody hasn't spotted, I think is not right. I think at the moment now that the process of, getting a decision is taking too long.

And I think you either have to use VAR, quickly. And again, you come back to the sort of AI things of the world and can it be done a lot quicker, keeps the game flowing. When you see 10 minutes of extra time at halftime and you see all these added extra time, I'm not a great fan of watching live sport anyway, but it's to be in the stadium and to be sitting, it has to be quicker.

And I think that's what the fans want. They want that decision made. There is obviously a little bit of drama when the referee goes across to look at his little screen and to see yes or no. But the other decisions have to be made quicker. And I think the other thing as well is when they allow play to go on.

That also opens up the opportunity for maybe injuries to happen or things like that. I think if the decision is going to be called, it's called and then it's decided on there and then. As opposed to, being allowed to progress.

[00:51:00] Colin Cohen: But VAR was meant to be, come into place for the obvious mistakes. Let's say bull crossing the line, the obvious offside. But now you know the penalty decisions and they go back in play to find a little shove in the push before the breakups. You, there's a lot of like the rugby, which you're very familiar in the rugby World Cup, it took ages to go back and say, oh, because there was a slight push or shove or foul on the one of the phases, the try was disallowed. 

Now for football, , they were suggesting, we saw the Arteta in the Newcastle game, it's a big blowout, the ball was a foul, and hence the goal should not have been allowed. I think , that's not VAR in my view, to be used that way.

[00:51:40] Tim Bredbury: So you've got a fourth official who's there to, to help the game, I think that's the key thing is to help. If the referee has missed something, then, is it that person's response, again, it's just clarifying what his role is, as that fourth person. When you look at rugby now and I'm a great fan of watching rugby from from the television because you'll see it from all different angles.

And again, how many tries have been given that weren't given because the ball was dropped and all that. So I think, it works in the rugby side of things. I think football, if it's done quicker, then I think it'll work. But again, the investment into doing it, I mean, I've been involved with the guys who are doing it in Hong Kong and looking at the setup there.

I mean, it's huge amounts of money, it's huge investments and the infrastructure side of things, making sure you've got Decent Wi Fi. You've got everything in place and it all works. So I've been to games in Hong Kong again, where you're sort of sitting there waiting for this VAR to make a decision. And it's just the way of the world now, unfortunately.

[00:52:35] Colin Cohen: Yes, it is as well. Now, let's go back a little bit to what I asked you at the beginning regarding your work you're doing in Malaysia. How is football developing in Malaysia? And probably I see Singapore. How are you seeing the development of the game there at the moment? I know there's huge interest.

[00:52:51] Tim Bredbury: Yeah. Massive interest. I think what's happened in Malaysia is that they've sort of tried to move away before it was very much state funded. So each state would have a team. And I think when I was playing, this is going back into the early 90s, Singapore was playing in the Malaysian league and they would get 60,000 people every other week for their home games.

The problem then was that Singapore pulled out. I'm not sure, I think there's some issues with regard to maybe gambling and things like that, which is always a problem that needs to be addressed as well. And then Singapore went and set up their own domestic league, which is, I think, similar to Hong Kong.

They've tried private clubs and or district teams. And, Singapore is a small market it's a small football league as such. Hong Kong tried to go into the district side of things as well. And I think you've got Southerner playing, Taipo playing, clubs like that.

I just don't think that the money is not there, enough money. The experience, how is a club structured? Where do they get their players from? And, at the end of the day, it's entertainment. if Your team is not entertaining, if you're not giving people what they want for their money, then they'll go somewhere else.

And I think this is the problem with the FA is that they've sort of sat on their laurels for too long. You had $50 in your pocket, you've got everybody trying to take that $50 off you, whether it be Starbucks, whether it be the cinema, whether it be whatever. They all want that money. Whereas I think Hong Kong football has been more complacent. Because also as well, the money is generally in place already.

So the budget for the team either comes out of somebody's pocket or it comes out of a sponsor's pocket. So they know what they're spending. It's not, we need to make this money back. It's, it's almost that that money is, has gone. And I think they've got to turn that around a bit and there's got to be some accountability in terms of how many people are turning up at the games.

What are you doing sponsorship wise? What are you doing at youth level? And where's the vision? And I mentioned that a little bit earlier, if you had that Hong Kong United as a team playing in China, then all these clubs, they get rewarded for developing players. And I think at the moment, you just don't have that.

There is nothing at the end of each season as such. They win something, maybe they go to the AFC Champions League, maybe they don't. And it's funny as well, because a lot of clubs, you would go in there wanting to do well, but they go in there saying, well, look, we're never going to compete against the Kitchies, the Easterns, the Lehmans anyway.

So let's sit and be a mid table side. And I think you get that also in the Premier League. It's survival. They want to be there and they have to survive in order to get that pay out, that TV money for the coming season. 

[00:55:13] Colin Cohen: Thoughts of coming back to Hong Kong,

[00:55:15] Tim Bredbury: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm here having a look at Penang. It's a little opportunity. We're not getting any younger. It's what happens is do we stay in Hong Kong? Do we look at elsewhere? And this is a great opportunity to come down here. As I said, I've lived in Malaysia before, so it's easy to walk in and understand the culture, food is great.

So Hong Kong is always, family is there as well, so it's never going to be the end of Hong Kong. It's always, at the moment now, we're just looking at different options and this is an opportunity that's come up.

[00:55:44] Colin Cohen: And it'll give me great pleasure to referee again when you're a player. Because I've refereed you before at a football club where you've put on your shirt for some team, Discovery Bay team and all the rest.

[00:55:52] Tim Bredbury: Of course. 

[00:55:53] Colin Cohen: A great honor to referee you again. So I hope that's going to happen sometime in the future.

Now, I'd like to finish with some predictions. You have a bit of a pundit. You follow football. Your beloved Liverpool are doing fairly well. Are they going to win the league again this year? 

[00:56:07] Tim Bredbury: They're fairly well on top of the league at the moment.

[00:56:10] Colin Cohen: Yeah.

[00:56:11] Tim Bredbury: No, I think, I think what Klopp has done, and I think the club are in that sort of, I go back to that Shankly, Paisley, he, he's just that manager with the right personality, there's just a buzz about Liverpool, there's a buzz about the crowd, the players that they've got. And obviously they've gone through a transformation just recently with the likes of Jordan Henderson, Milner, all these players leaving. And to literally overnight bring in a new squad or a new midfield squad I think has been brilliant.

I see them going close. Again, I think Manchester City will always be there. They have two squads, they've got their guys who play and the guys who sit on the bench. So they'll always be there or thereabouts. Arsenal, I don't think I've got enough yet to go and win it.

So I'm going to say it's going to be Liverpool favourites, Man City very closely behind Newcastle, maybe don't have that strength yet to be able to do it. 

[00:57:03] Colin Cohen: Tim, it's been fascinating to chat with you, and thank you so much for joining us on Law & More. Thank you. 

[00:57:10] Tim Bredbury: Thank you Colin, take care.