Episode 7 - Winnie Tam

In this episode, we meet Senior Counsel Winnie Tam, who dovetails her successful career as a barrister with outstanding public service including chairing the Communications Authority. Winnie talks about her busy life, love of music and her hopes for the future of Hong Kong in conversation with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

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Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter

Transcript

[00:00:00] Colin Cohen: Winnie, welcome to Law & More, and thank you so much for joining us today. Tell me, what's been keeping you busy recently. 

[00:00:08] Winnie Tam: Well, I've always been busy these days with various public work on top of my practice as a barrister and as an arbitrator. So that's pretty much a full plate right now. 

[00:00:19] Colin Cohen: Good, before we start chatting about your distinguished career and I asked you lots of questions as to the things you're doing. I want to go back a bit in time I'd like to discuss with you, your upbringing here in Hong Kong, and I want to know when you first decided that you wanted to become a lawyer. Tell us a little bit about that. 

[00:00:39] Winnie Tam: I guess I decided that I would become a lawyer after I started studying law. To be completely honest I wasn't planning to study law to start with, because in those days far more interested in language and literature and I was hoping to pursue a degree in the arts. But my A-level results were such that I had enough points to get into the law faculty without going through an interview, so I was encouraged to try for the law faculty. 

[00:01:07] Colin Cohen: Who encouraged you? 

[00:01:08] Winnie Tam: I guess my parents. And also one of my parents' friends was a high court judge in those days, that was Benjamin Liu, they are like drinking friends. So, I was encouraged to pursue a career in law and so I did. But after a year I actually said to my father look I mean I I'm not entirely sure I want to go down that path, I'd very much like to go back to studying something like comparative literature. Whereupon he blew his top, and I had such a heart talk from him that I decided to give that idea up forever And that was when I started focusing, okay I'm going to be a Lawyer.

[00:01:45] Colin Cohen: And you studied Law at the University of Hong Kong, you did your degree. 

[00:01:49] Winnie Tam: Yes. 

[00:01:49] Colin Cohen: Our paths crossed because in 1983 you went on to do the Post Certificate in Law, the PCLL. I just had joined Hong Kong University as a lecturer, that day was a school of law, it hadn't yet turned into the faculty. And in 1983 you were in my class. And I do remember I was going back, the number of eminent people now who are now high court judges and I have to appear before them. They are reasonably polite to me because once a teacher, I've learned, always a teacher it's great respect for teachers here in Hong Kong or anywhere else in the world. 

[00:02:21] Winnie Tam: Well Colin, you were one of the teachers who commanded great respect and you were very lively and also you were very friendly with students. And I can't say that of all the teachers but you are one of them, I remember I was in your commercial law class 

[00:02:34] Colin Cohen: Yes 

[00:02:35] Winnie Tam: And I can't remember whether that was in my third year or in PCLL. But certainly, that was a very enjoyable class, you made it very enjoyable 

[00:02:43] Colin Cohen: Well I try to cause I remember when I was studying at Cambridge how boring it could be unless you are sort of given guidance and help along the way. So any way you defeated the examiners very well and you then decided to embark upon a career as a barrister. Now most students even today, very few want to go to the Bar. More people are more inclined to go down to become a Solicitor which was a little bit safer and easier financially. What made you go to the bar 

[00:03:10] Winnie Tam: In my days it was exactly like that too, most of my classmates had gone to become Solicitors, and that was the heyday of conveyancing work. And all of them were figuring out how to go into a firm and do a lot of conveyancing and we call it printing money in those days. And only six of us went into the private Bar, I remember. But I remember they were very very good students, I was not as good as they were but they then turn out to be judges including the chief justice and very successful Barristers. 

[00:03:43] Colin Cohen: Yes he was in my class as well 

[00:03:45] Winnie Tam: That's right, that's right. 

[00:03:47] Colin Cohen: So you did your pupilage and then you found your way into Gilbert Rodway's Chambers. Now I remember Gilbert Rodway, that chambers had the reputation of being a family set and a criminal set. What made you go there?

[00:04:01] Winnie Tam: Well that's an interesting question, I did pupilage with Peter Nguyen and also two others who were in civil practice including Mohan -. Now Peter got me very interested in criminal law and he encouraged me to apply to Gilbert Rodway's Chambers because Gilbert has a very very strong reputation in family law, and it was thought that I would enjoy myself as a family lawyer and also carrying on a healthy criminal practice. That was a very good opportunity for me because I was the first Chinese member, I mean all of them without exception were either Australian or Englishman. And there was one other lady apart from me and that was Mrs Fowl Pennington. So it was a very happy set and they welcomed me with open arms despite I was the only Chinese girl and they were very protective and very helpful towards me. So I really enjoyed my first two years, which was mostly spent on corporate practice because as it turned out I didn't quite like family practice. I remember I did two cases alongside Gilbert in those days and gilbert was really hoping to draw me into those cases because he found a Chinese speaking girl helpful in the case. But as it turned out I didn't quite enjoy the kind of emotional tension in these cases. And I decided not to do any more family cases. 

[00:05:21] Colin Cohen: I'm a criminal lawyer I have a reputation for doing a bit of criminal law. I remember in those early days although I was teaching at the university, I was allowed to do outside practice and I found my way in and out in the magistrates' courts. Any interesting cases anything you remember in your early days because criminal law dependent upon the business coming in from the solicitors but the Clarks behind the solicitors at that time, anything of interest? 

[00:05:43] Winnie Tam: I remember particularly one case in which I was instructed as a duty lawyer for a guy who was charged with assaulting an ICAC office, which was pretty serious in those days. And he didn't begin to look like anyone who would hit another person. And so I took up that case and as a duty lawyer defended him and got him off. And then in a couple of days time, I received a gift with a thank you message but with no telephone number no address, and apparently that was from the guy who got off and he was very grateful. So that was something which was really encouraging for a new Barista, and I still remembered this to this date. And another case was when I was junior to [Cammie Bakari], it was like a jury trial. And that was also quite an experience. So I hadn't done many jury trials in the course of the two years in which I practised in the area but those were quite exciting and I still miss the opportunity. If there's one thing I regret about not staying in the criminal Bar, that would be not having the opportunity to do a jury trial by myself. 

[00:06:50] Colin Cohen: Because 1983 Carrion cases, the big corruption cases. But then you decided to go to London and do a master in Law. What made you start off at the chambers and divert your way into the UK. 

[00:07:05] Winnie Tam: It was an opportunity because I actually was the first batch of students who studied intellectual property law at the Hong Kong University. But because I wanted to take other electives at the time, I didn't have the chance to take the full intellectual property course. I took part of it and then wrote a dissertation. And the teacher was very good Peter Sinden, you remember him? 

[00:07:26] Colin Cohen: I do indeed. 

[00:07:26] Winnie Tam: So that was a good start, and that was a good introduction to intellectual property law. But I've always wanted to pursue more in this area, and then when I was sucked into criminal practice I didn't have a chance. So I decided that I really must stop doing criminal work because I was doing rather too well on it which meant that if I were to carry on there wouldn't be any chance of me getting myself out of it. So I decided to then 90-degree turn I would say to another direction which was to pursue a master degree at London University. But the real intention is to go and do a second round of pupillage in London with a specialized set of chambers doing only patterns copyright and trademarks 

[00:08:07] Colin Cohen: And that was an Old Square? 

[00:08:08] Winnie Tam: That was in New Square. In those days It was in Francis Taylor building off Fleet Street. Now they've moved to New square and I'm now an overseas member of those chambers.

[00:08:18] Colin Cohen: And then you returned to Hong Kong, and you became the expert the person to go to. Now I mean that's unusual, how did that happen? Did you have a lucky case? 

[00:08:27] Winnie Tam: again that was sheer luck because I made my intention clear to Sir Robin Jacob who was at the time still practising as a Silk in London in the area. And of course, he's the real doyenne in the area. And so he took me in to do pupillage while I was in London. So I was actually going to work a lot there, and then most of the time instead of attending lectures I was there in Francis Taylor building. And at the end of my one-year term, he was kind enough to call up all the Solicitors who do intellectual property work that he knew and then to tell them well this girl is coming back you should try her out. And that was such a kind act And that was how my intellectual property career started. And so when I was about to prepare for exams, I was landed with the first patent trial. So I decided not to take the exam, went straight back to Hong Kong. Because I was already looking at the London side of the same litigation So it was very very interesting to me, and they had to do an injunction in Hong Kong so there was no delay. So I had to go back immediately and start preparing. So that was the first case that marked the start of my career. 

[00:09:36] Colin Cohen: And the chambers when you first went back to, where were you in chambers? 

[00:09:39] Winnie Tam: I lost my seat with Gilbert, he was so very kind to me. He promised that when you come back we can talk and you can come back. But then in those days, there was something that maybe modern lawyers cannot imagine and that is whether you can actually sustain an intellectual property practice depending on whether you had the law reports. Because it's well before the days off [LexisNexis] and all that. So you have the RPC and the Fleet Streets law reports and those were like hugely expensive because the area's so specialized and the market was so small. So you had to be in a set of chambers where they have those books. So in those days, there was another set of chambers which is now the park side, it was Peter Clayton, peter Garland who were mainly doing intellectual property and Peter Garland was trained in the same set of chambers where I've just done my second round of pupilage in London. So he took me in and we started from scratch there. And those were my chambers, which is now Parkside. 

[00:10:43] Colin Cohen: A very successful set of chambers. 

[00:10:44] Winnie Tam: Absolutely 

[00:10:45] Colin Cohen: So not only intellectual property, you were the person to go to but there are also other areas of law arbitration, commercial disputes. You were doing everything early days as well. 

[00:10:56] Winnie Tam: Well arbitration I didn't get into until about six, seven years ago and that was again something which I didn't expect at the time but I was finding that to have over 20 years of my professional life in one area was getting a bit too boring. And I was looking for opportunities but then the opportunity came to me because it was at a time when the department of justice was trying to push through the amendments to the arbitration's ordinance To specifically make intellectual property subject matters arbitrable in the amended legislation. So they got together me who was known to do intellectual property into the working group in preparation for the new legislation. And that was when I became very interested in arbitration, and then I was also in park council work, and I was also involved in practice development and generally arbitration development. And so I became very interested and I started studying the subject and that was how I got into arbitration back in about 2015 -2016.

[00:12:01] Colin Cohen: You've moved into DesVoeux chambers in 1999, and today you're the head of chambers when you went into DesVoeux chambers anything particularly took you into that set. 

[00:12:12] Winnie Tam: Well it was at the time when Daniel Fung after he had finished his term, he was looking for a set of chambers to join, and he ended up joining DesVoeux chambers to take over as head of chambers. And at the time I and Johnny mark also went along and joined DesVoeux chambers to get one of my pupils [Ling Cheung Wai]. Because DesVoeux didn't have anyone practising in intellectual property law at the time so maybe they considered it a valuable addition Whereas I was actually thinking that I could practice anywhere because I already have established myself as an IP practitioner and all the solicitors will come to me for IP work are people who already know me very well. So I didn't really need to practice in any particular set. But joining DesVoeux was such an enriching experience, to practice with so many bright minds and very bright juniors coming in thanks to the work of the pupilage committee headed by William Wong for a number of years. That was such a change of my life actually, and to be head of chambers I'm very very honoured to take that position but I knew that someone has to relieve John Scott of that chore after 10 years, so I stepped up.

[00:13:19] Colin Cohen: And it's an interesting that in 2006, you became a senior counsel at quite a young age. I wasn't going to give anything away but I have to be very polite and for women, at that stage, it wasn't that easy. To be very honest with Hong Kong it was always difficult for young women to get in there, to take silk. And it wasn't very very many. And obviously, things are changing. 

[00:13:39] Winnie Tam: Yes I must thank Peter Clayton for that because I didn't really have a lot of confidence to apply to become a silk, but Peter Clayton who knew my practice, he encouraged me. Of course, by then Peter has already moved into construction arbitration for a very long time. I remember I attended this Silks party. And he was encouraging me to apply. And then I talked to Anthony Rogers who was a judge by then, cause he was listening to most of our cases. So he would be in a position to tell me whether I should apply or whether I shouldn't. I knew that he would be honest with me. And then I also asked a few more judges and they all encouraged me to apply. So that was how it turned out. 

[00:14:22] Colin Cohen: You were in DesVoeux chambers, you're now head of chambers. And for listeners here, DesVoeux chambers is one of the prominent sets of chambers along with Temple chambers and some other sets of chambers. I'm senior partner in my firm, and our firm has been in existence since 1985. How much of your time is spent administrating, keeping everyone happy, putting out fires, leading it, it's not an easy task. 

[00:14:47] Winnie Tam: Well I would say not much time because, 

[00:14:51] Colin Cohen: Believe that for one moment. 

[00:14:53] Winnie Tam: Well if only because there are not many things that I can order and sort of make happen. But I have to try to gather people together from committees that are suitable and have them there. By people who are suitable. I consider that my most important task right at the beginning of my term was to have organized and reorganize the chamber's committees and put together a really good management committee, and I think once that is on track hopefully not many things will happen that would require my attention too much. The COVID situation had needed a bit of management, getting equipment and making sure things are operated as you but hopefully that will be over soon I wouldn't say it takes up much of my time compared with other completely unpaid work that I'm doing. 

[00:15:42] Colin Cohen: Because what I find quite remarkable. For our listener's chambers are a set of individual self-employed people It's not like a firm of solicitors where we employ everybody. What I've been noticing in London now or for some years is that all the leading sets of chambers have these high efficient practice managers and they are chief executives of chambers and they go around developing business developing the websites getting in more and more business from solicitors. And of course in England and you have what's called direct access a lot more than you would have here. But it's good to hear that you're not having to spend all your time in administration. 

[00:16:17] Winnie Tam: No I think the busiest committee under chambers management would be the practice development committee, which was set up years ago. And I think we must be the first set of chambers to have a practice development director and I think that was a very good investment and other chambers have followed suit now. And I think that makes barristers much more proactive in the way they reach out to people, let other people know about their abilities, that's the way I see it. 

[00:16:44] Colin Cohen: I believe the solicitors do solicitorial work, and I go to the barrister, so I've always been a not a great one to have the ability to sort of step into the realms of advocacy and other areas. And what I've enjoyed so much about your chambers is that I'm able to go and talk to William Wong And say look William I need young lawyers. I'm looking for cost-effective young barristers difficult to advertise, who can I go to Who can I use. And he's so good in hosting a dinner introducing you to all your young lawyers who are all remarkable because they're all have gone to Oxford and Cambridge And some of them come from mainland China. They're absolutely top rate And I find that is the best way, as opposed to the old system go along to the head of the [clerk], who's available now and who's good now. I think you've got that down to a fine touch. 

[00:17:30] Winnie Tam: Down to earth the system here, and generally the culture is very bound to us. And I value that because a lot of the young people they need a bit of help to make themselves known to the solicitors. They can't reach out by themselves so it's very good to have senior members introducing them. And also the practice develop manager who is always staging these seminars and having speakers from the junior sector and giving them the exposure they need. I think that's very important, that's something that all the senior man should do for junior members.

[00:18:02] Colin Cohen: I'm very concerned about the young people and it's a tough life for the young barristers here because today 300 students coming out to the PCLL I was speaking to the Dean I said what percentage are going to the BAR, and it's small. 

100 each year but it's still quite small I think compared to that, 

[00:18:19] Winnie Tam: Well but it's already too big for the bar, the number, because how can you imagine the private bar absorbing over a hundred people a year It's very very difficult. 

[00:18:28] Colin Cohen: So it's difficult for them to get pupilage. 

[00:18:30] Winnie Tam: Yes and difficult for them to get good pupillage. I mean even the set as large as us, we're 92 people and obviously, several tens of people are eligible to take pupils. And we can only take up to six there is no fixed number but in recent years I know that we are taking six a year and that is out of a hundred-odd pupils so it is very difficult. And for those others who managed to get pupilage, it may not be the most desirable position for them because you're barristers who are good enough to pay what they could practice now. They get paid for lunch money and for transportation which is good but how many of them actually learn a great deal I really don't know.

[00:19:10] Colin Cohen: Just on another topic which I'm very interested in. I do follow you on LinkedIn, and I see that all the time you're now giving seminars on this Greater Bay Area, and in particular the idea where people are going into China to practice. And I believe you're a great supporter of this initiative to expand and giving lectures in the ability to cross border and to go and give advice in China. Tell us a little bit about that and how you think Hong Kong stands to gain from that. 

[00:19:36] Winnie Tam: Well Hong Kong is a very small jurisdiction as we all know and for the civil jurisdiction of the high court, one can see that the caseload is decreasing rather than increasing. Part of that caseload is taken up in international arbitration which means that caseload is handled not only by Hong Kong lawyers, less still Hong Kong barristers. Some are drawn into the part of the tribunal but because arbitration is international in nature and cross-jurisdiction in nature it doesn't mean that all the work will go to the BAR. And I think it is very very important that we do not limit ourselves. I think Hong Kong barristers must be more forward-looking and be prepared to consider practising over the border. Now of course we get to training in Chinese law in order to sit for this exam but we may not feel confident enough to practice on our own in the various areas of law under Chinese law. But that doesn't mean that we cannot work with other China lawyers because what Hong Kong barristers have to offer, in terms of advocacy skills, in terms of Judgment, in terms of understanding of the law in various areas to contribute to a thriving profession over the border. And as I see it the greater bay area is really a gift to the Hong Kong bar as well as to the solicitors. At the time I really didn't expect that barristers were going to be able to sit for an exam which was not as difficult as the real one for mainland lawyers. And to be able to get a qualification to practice in the Greater Bay Area which is like many many times bigger than Hong Kong. On my part, I think that we would like to explore how the talents and abilities of barristers can be best used. I don't envisage barristers going there and visiting companies and looking for clients and offering to do work that we may not be good at but I hope that the value of barristers are more readily seen when we make ourselves more accessible to the mainland market. And in fact, we are a kind of representative offers inside the Greater Bay area international arbitration platform in [Chen Hai]. So in due course, we're going to put our heads together and decide how best to use that presence once the qualifications go through. We have six members who sat for the exam 

[00:22:00] Colin Cohen: Did you sit for the exam? when are the results coming up?

[00:22:04] Winnie Tam: End of September. 

[00:22:05] Colin Cohen: And did you defeat the examiners 

[00:22:08] Winnie Tam: I don't know, I was very very wary and very worried that I might not pass. But having done the exam I think it's manageable particularly for people who can write fluently in Chinese I think that will be okay, you need to do a bit of study though. 

[00:22:24] Colin Cohen: Now you've sat as numerous times as a deputy high court judge. Aspirations and desire to join the judiciary full-time?

[00:22:33] Winnie Tam: I have ruled that out since quite a while ago. The main reason is that because I enjoy other public work so much if I were to go and become a judge I would be required to stop all that because judges are not generally allowed to do any sort of non-judging work unless it is directly related to law. And I find myself a more dynamic person than that I am interested in the arts I'm interested in other things And I would like to be able to keep my mind active on various different disciplines And I think I would be happier not being a judge. 

[00:23:08] Colin Cohen: I could go through your list as your devotion to public services so wide, but I just want to concentrate on a couple of areas. And the area which I'm interested, I'm into the culture cause I remember when I was teaching you, you were head of the choir you had a group you were very much into music and the choirs and a great patron of the arts from the very beginning when I've known you. The Western Cultural Center some people say that big elephant is about to open up I'm going to take my grandson there hopefully over the weekend, and I want to know a little bit more how can Hong Kong and what you're doing to promote the arts and the culture and to open it all up for people and for young people to make it a great museum where people say yeah, you can go and visit the museums of London the museums of Paris, I mean will Hong Kong gets to that level? 

[00:23:51] Winnie Tam: It will, I should think so because we have this wonderful piece of land on the harbourside with lovely sprawling grounds. The responsibilities I have with the West Kowloon Cultural district board is sitting as a board member and leading its performing arts committee. I'm not on the separate board for the museum but I have visited the grounds of the museum many times. And it's lovely And I'm sure everyone will enjoy it whether or not you enjoy modern art. Now the M+ museum is for contemporary art and they are filling it with exhibits and so on. And it will be opened on the 12th of November this year. Alongside with the cafes and the bookstore and the gift shop. And it will be a lovely place. But for performing arts we also have two wonderful venues right now and we are hoping to open the lyric theatre which is under construction, in several years time maybe three or four years time. And the [Xichu] centre along Canton road that side. It's a beautiful structure and it will be the home to many Chinese operas performances. And there is the black box theatre called free space which is at the gateway to the beautiful art park with a piece of green Running from one end to the other almost to the heart of Tsim Sha Tsui. And that's a very much loved ground for a family. So I mean these are the fringes of the art facilities but for free space, a lot of contemporary performances are being put up, and the committee which I chair is responsible for overseeing not only the operation and the construction of the facilities but also the programming and the connection with the community and how to outreach to different sectors of society. And that is what we have been doing under very tight budget constraints 

[00:25:48] Colin Cohen: Yes one of your great passions is music. Do you play an instrument now? What sort of music are you into right now. 

[00:25:53] Winnie Tam: I've always been known as a choir girl and a singer. You've probably listened to my singing at some stage. And I played the piano and I still play something but I don't perform anymore and I very seldom perform publicly as a singer but I still get invited to sing from time to time I still enjoy it. 

[00:26:14] Colin Cohen: Your daughter and your son, Are they into music as well? 

[00:26:16] Winnie Tam: I kept telling my friends if my children were born as a kind of swimmer, their talents would have been unnoticed. Unfortunately, because I'm so interested in music and the arts they have learned music from a very young age and my daughter then became a professional musician She went on to Julliard school and then to Berkeley College of music for her master degree, and she's now a contemporary musician. And my son was a very good cellist to up to university level but then he decided to do computer engineering, and so he's a computer engineer. 

[00:26:53] Colin Cohen: Yeah I'm trying to decide what music my grandson would play but he's more into the football and all that stuff. 

[00:26:58] Winnie Tam: Play a Chinese instrument.

[00:26:59] Colin Cohen: I'll try and do that. I want to go back to the communications authority. You're the chairperson or chair lady of a chairman, which is the independent watchdog for broadcasting telecommunications. What's the biggest issue at the moment there's lots of talk about censorship, traditional broadcasting. What're the main issues you're having to deal with all the time. 

[00:27:18] Winnie Tam: Our primary task right now is to ensure that the 5G regime runs smoothly. It has been successful, so that was very good. We have to auction these frequencies for the trade. We are the watchdog for the broadcasting industry as well as the telecommunications industry. For the public eye perhaps the most frequent occasion when the communication authority hits the newspaper would be when we are dishing out our rulings on broadcasting complaints. Particularly in the years 2019 and 2020. There were 10 times more broadcasting complaints than in normal years. Many of them were group complaints. There would be 3000 complaints for one particular incident or one particular footage of TVB news or whatever. Now we've had almost 40,000 complaints would be the backlog at one stage. And many of them have been dealt with and maybe over half. And a lot of the time there is no punishment. After very careful consideration there is a committee which is particularly responsible for handling these complaints. The executive arm handles them first and then it goes to the committee and then it comes to the board with the committee's recommendations. And 99.5% at least are not found to be substantiated, and there would be no sanction.

[00:28:39] Colin Cohen: There's one issue here which I'm interested in, there is some disconnection at the moment between the establishment and young people. Politics is politics I'm going to keep that on one side. But the young people be it the young lawyers, the young people are being educated. There are people who do feel a little disillusioned, what's your message to them? Where are we going with all of that? 

[00:29:00] Winnie Tam: My message to them is to open their eyes absorb like a sponge. A lot of times I find that the disillusionment comes from a sense of disconnection right because they feel that what the government is doing It's not for them It means nothing to them and it doesn't care about them. But actually if one looks at it more closely it is not entirely true. So for young people they must go and find the truth more for themselves rather than listen to other people saying what the government has not done and what the government has not been doing well and so on. And I'm not part of the government and I'm not always speaking for the government but because I participate so heavily in public work a lot of times I'm either with government oversight or working with the government, I actually get to know much more of the truth of what the government has done. And sometimes they don't do it a hundred per cent correctly or very well but of course, I mean they would know to adjust and to improve. And that's what everyone does when we operate anything or when we have to solve any new problems. So I wouldn't say that we should be very permissive or very forgiving, but on the other hand, we must find out more. Take part in it because they're actually a lot of opportunities for young people to participate in public affairs and by participating I mean to say to take part in committees or to take part in consultations to give your opinion and there are many many channels to do so. And in order to do that effectively, you need to learn more about the organization. I remember that when I started off doing public work, one of the earliest appointments into the ICAC operations review committee. And that was hugely interesting because every time he likes reading 10 different novels of how cases have been investigated and how the investigations have developed and what difficulties they ran up against. And it was very interesting And once I became part of the consideration process I got to understand so much more about the difficulties of investigation and why sometimes things go wrong even when it's tried in court and something went wrong with regard to the investigation which would lead to acquittals. And I think participating more in public life is one way of making young people feel that they are not disenchanted and disenfranchised. 

[00:31:35] Colin Cohen: Agree, that's a great message. For all of my guests on our podcast, I've asked them the questions and vis-a-vis. I've been here 40 years Michael Hartman, was on Clive Grosman, everyone and all of us we all always end up, is this your home? We all say yes, it is our home. We don't want to live anywhere else I've been here too long I didn't think I could go anywhere else. So your views, your thoughts sort of future. You're a Hong Kong person, you are here, you're optimistic. The future of Hong Kong What do you feel? 

[00:32:05] Winnie Tam: As a Chinese person, there is absolutely no doubt that I consider this my home. But I think I'm also increasingly feeling that not just Hong Kong is my home but where Hong Kong belongs It's my it's it's a very sort of instinctive feeling because we've lived through the age of the British colony and I've grown up in a society where the British were considered to be superior. And I've remembered all that, we've taken a lot of benefit from English education, from British administration. When 1997 came I really had such a strong feeling that oh at last we are Chinese and we can now truly call ourselves Chinese. And I'm very very proud of that, and sometimes I talk to my young colleagues or young friends and they haven't been through that period pre-1997 as an adult and they may not entirely understand the longing of being back in its own country. And I think Hong Kong's future is going to be bright if its inhabitants have that sense of identity. For Hong Kong people who felt very disenchanted in the past two years, I guess when they actually go and live in some other country as an immigrant they may begin to feel what I now strongly feel. And they may begin to know the difference between living in your own country and not living in your own country. But of course, I have a lot of friends who have like you Colin and Michael Hartman who live here for the longest time And Hong Kong is a very very special place. It welcomes people who have come here to work and we make them part of our society And I think that's what is very very special in Hong Kong. And I hope that carries on, and so that Hong Kong has a much broader outlook than the major cities in China. 

[00:34:01] Colin Cohen: I agree entirely with you. Winnie, it's been an honour, a privilege to have you on Law & More. Your sentiments, your thoughts, I entirely agree with because this is my home and I am an optimist. Winnie, thank you so much 

[00:34:14] Winnie Tam: Thank you very much Colin Thank you for having me.