Episode 45 - Anoop Gidwani

In this episode, we meet forensic accountant and white collar crime investigator Anoop Gidwani, who reflects on his long career with the Independent Commission Against Corruption and some of the landmark cases he worked on. As well, Anoop talks about his passion for cricket, which he has served for decades as an umpire and administrator, and efforts to grow the sport in Hong Kong. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

00:37 Introduction and Guest Welcome
 01:52 Early Life and Education
 03:01 Career Beginnings in Hong Kong
 05:09 Joining the ICAC
 06:20 Notable Investigations and Cases
 12:10 Reflections on the ICAC
 14:44 Transition to Private Sector
 15:46 Passion for Cricket
 18:20 Future of Cricket in Hong Kong
 23:25 Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter  

Transcript

[00:37:00] Colin: Welcome, everybody. Today, I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by an old friend and an occasional legal foe, Anoop Gidwani. A forensic accountant and a tenacious investigator of white collar crime, Anoop has recently left the Independent Commission Against Corruption to work in the private sector. His unwavering commitment to integrity extends to sport, where he continues to contribute with great distinction on both Hong Kong on the international stage. Anup, welcome to Law More. And as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently? 

[00:37:39] Anoop: Oh, thank you for having me here. Unfortunately, I've got my fingers in so many pies, but cricket takes most of my time these days.

[00:37:46] We are expanding into new areas and into China. We are resurrecting the sixes and of course the the domestic issues involving Hong Kong selection and administration of cricket Hong Kong. That takes more than half of my time. 

[00:38:00] Colin: And of course in today's SCMP the headlines are there regarding the teams but we'll we'll talk about the cricket because I love cricket and cricket is one of the most amazing sports and Hong Kong is really Adjusting to becoming a sporting city with the new stadiums and everything else.

[00:38:15] But let's go back a bit. Tell us about your early days, your education. I understand that you and your twin brother were born in Kobe, Japan. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got yourself into your early parts of your career and your work with the ICAC. 

[00:38:30] Anoop: Yes, you're right. I have a twin brother.

[00:38:32] We were born in Japan. My father was a banker and posted in Osaka in those days. So the first six years of our lives was in Japan. And when my father got transferred back to India, the problem we had was getting into school because we spoke only Japanese. So no school would take the risk of admitting students who didn't speak Hindi or English.

[00:38:52] Until a Spanish principal of a missionary school had pity on us and said he would give us a chance. took us in and said if you didn't pick up in the first year, we would have to repeat it. But that's how it started. So, it was a struggle to start on, but we finished our education, schooling with Campion School, graduation and commerce from Bombay University.

[00:39:14] But alongside our graduation, we both were studying to be chartered accountants. So we finished our graduation and chartered accountancy at around the same time, a few months apart from each other. And when we finished our CA, My father was then working in Hong Kong. We thought, let's come to Hong Kong and try finding a job here.

[00:39:31] And that's why we came to Hong Kong. And we both were employed initially with Ernst Winnie. 

[00:39:37] Colin: That's the old company, it's now Ernst Young. Ernst Young as a stockholder. And now known as EY. EY, that's correct. 

[00:39:42] Anoop: During the interview, they said it's company policy that they don't take relatives, so they'll take only one brother, not both.

[00:39:49] So we left it up to them as to who would join. Eventually, I joined. Contacted them and said, I'd be happy to join them. But very shortly thereafter, they came back and said, we've had a talk amongst the partners. We really would like to have you both. But the only thing is we'll put one in the Hong Kong office, one in Kowloon.

[00:40:06] You can't be working together. So with that condition, we both joined. 

[00:40:11] Colin: So we're your twin brother. You've studied together. That's correct. Worked together. Do you ever annoy each other? 

[00:40:16] Anoop: We're destined to be that way. We both initially worked in the audit department, and to be honest, I hated audit. I'm a great believer in destiny, and in 1985, you might recall, there was a bank called Overseas Trust Bank, which 

[00:40:30] Colin: collapsed.

[00:40:31] I know it very well. 

[00:40:32] Anoop: That's right. So in June of 1985, There's an audit calendar, what different audits you have to do over, over the next three, four months. And I was tasked to audit the BCCI, and you remember BCCI too. 

[00:40:43] Colin: Yes, I do. 

[00:40:44] Anoop: And it was only a small division of it, not the entire bank. And my brother was tasked to audit an Indian company.

[00:40:50] Uh, that's not going to the name, but anyway, he was, he was asked to audit an Indian company. But both BCCI and the Indian company had issues about us Indians carrying out the audit. So we were taken out from the audit and sitting in the office with no, no money. specific assignment when OTB fell and CCB moved in almost immediately.

[00:41:09] Colin: That's the Commercial Crime Bureau for our listeners. That's right. Which is part of the police force. That's correct. Specializes in forensic investigations. That's correct. 

[00:41:16] Anoop: So they moved in and they needed help from a forensic accounting point of view. And they roped in Ernst and Winnie to help. And both of us offered our services to join that team.

[00:41:28] And that's how our investigative accountancy careers took shape. So for one year we did that work, and my father in 86 was returning back to India, retiring, and we were contemplating going back when questions were asked whether we would stay behind and join the government. There were allegations, but whilst we were doing the investigation into OTB, there were allegations of potential corruption involving the Commission of Banking, as it was then called.

[00:41:52] And that's how the ICAC got involved, and it was the first joint task force between ICAC and the Commercial Crime Bureau. So, although I was working for Hunst Winnie, but we were reporting to ICAC and the Commercial Crime Bureau. So when my brother and I made our thoughts known that we were going to leave Hong Kong, ICAC made an offer which we couldn't refuse.

[00:42:11] And that's how we joined ICAC. 

[00:42:12] Colin: So you joined the ICAC. Now, for our listeners, the Independent Commission Against Corruption is A separate body who were very, very involved. When I came in the early 80s, you mentioned the word ICAC and people would shake with fear. They were the guys who were going along to deal with corruption and other issues.

[00:42:30] They had very wide powers, which are unique. You're meant to investigate corruption, but if they saw something else, they'll then prosecute as well. So, starting off in the ICAC, you were there as forensic accountants working together. 

[00:42:42] Anoop: That's correct. So we were basically posted to task forces in the 80s, Colin, you would remember that you had many large scale investigations, Karin being one of them.

[00:42:52] Colin: I think we crossed swords nicely against each other. Because I acted for Lorraine Sanaman, and friends of mine were acting for George Tan. That was a wonderful case. 

[00:43:04] Anoop: And Lorraine Osman's extradition took so many years. 

[00:43:06] Colin: Yes. 

[00:43:07] Anoop: So, OTB, of course, as I told you, I did as part of the UNW team. And when we joined ICACB, both were posted to the Kawa Bank Investigation.

[00:43:16] Colin: Yes. 

[00:43:16] Anoop: That was another big bank which had collapsed. And also 

[00:43:18] Colin: my clients as well. I acted for some of them. Plough Brothers. Cuts of Brothers. That's correct. The 

[00:43:22] Anoop: Lau Brothers. That's 

[00:43:23] Colin: correct. 

[00:43:24] Anoop: So we both were on the Kawabank investigation for some time. My brother was on that case for much longer than I. I was then moved on to the Stock Exchange investigation, which involved Ronald Lee.

[00:43:35] And the entire listing committee of the then Stock Exchange. So that took three or four years of my time. Ronaleigh's conviction and then the trial of the entire listing committee. And after that, I got involved in the BCCI investigation. You remember BCCI folded up in 1992? Yeah. So, that was a very interesting investigation I got involved in.

[00:43:56] But then in 1993, and I still remember the date very, very clearly, 18th of August 1993, it was five officers, including myself, were convicted. We were called in by our then Deputy Commissioner, Head of Operations, Jim Buckle. Yes. If you would remember, and we were given a task in respect of an allegation involving Alex Choi.

[00:44:15] He was the senior most Chinese officer of ICAC then, tipped to become the first Chinese Head of Operations. So we were given two months to investigate that, and he was sent on a course to Beijing. And he said, before he would come back, we had to decide one way or the other which way we are going. So within two months, we came to the determination he lost his job.

[00:44:36] But it opened up a major investigation on cigarette smuggling and corruption within British American tobacco. 

[00:44:42] Colin: Yes, I remember that case. 

[00:44:44] Anoop: And there were many, many aspects to that case because our major witness got murdered in a triad killing. So it was not just corruption, it was conspiracy to murder, and was also the largest I have a tax evasion case in Hong Kong.

[00:44:57] The defendant had committed suicide, so that case didn't proceed in the courts. But he had been charged with not recording sales of more than 8. 142 billion dollars. So it was the largest tax evasion case in Hong Kong. But I was a case officer in respect of Jerry Loy, who was the export director of British American Tobacco, who had accepted bribes.

[00:45:16] And many things, many interesting snippets come out of that particular case. Corruption, yes, of course. It was the first case. where we actually took live audio evidence. One of the witnesses from BAT was scared to come back to Hong Kong. So he would testify in a court in London. So the defense team and the prosecution team actually went to London and took live audio evidence in a courtroom in London.

[00:45:40] And that was relayed to the defendant in Hong Kong. And he could hear what was being said and what questions were, and he would, of course, reply to the questions. But every half an hour or an hour, we would adjourn for the court hearing. Defense team to take instructions from the client. So it's quite an interesting experience.

[00:45:56] First time you ever did it. Then the arrest of Jerry Loy was in Boston. We actually had to get the plane down in a severe snowstorm and all, and the airport was closing and all the flights were being diverted, but keen to have him down in Boston because all arrangements had been arrested. And 

[00:46:12] Colin: then he got extradited.

[00:46:13] Anoop: And then he got extradited and he ran a very interesting argument on 1997. 

[00:46:18] Colin: Well, yeah, well I ran that argument. I was the first person who ran that argument in the Oswin case. And for our listeners, basically what we tried to argue that because Hong Kong was changing legal systems, it was uncertain as to what would happen to the treaties, etc, etc, and therefore it would not be in the public interest to extradite because it's going to be so uncertain that he could be put up to China or executed on such basis.

[00:46:44] Of course, that wonderful argument got destroyed. Totally annihilated in the courts, but it was an ability to delay and test the system. And it was very, very interesting. Very interesting. 

[00:46:54] Anoop: In fact, the Court of Appeal in the U. S. courts accepted his argument and it went up to the Supreme Court who then 

[00:47:01] Colin: didn't find a way with that.

[00:47:02] I remember in the Osman case, I was involved in that with Graham Harris, who was working for the DOJ, was on the other side. And we were taking actual evidence. In the USA for proving all the sort of flow of funds, et cetera as well. So I, I always remember the international aspects at the moment of think about, enjoyed yourself at the ICAC.

[00:47:23] Anoop: Yes. I'll be honest, I would say two third of my time in ICAC. I enjoyed it immensely. Just purely forensic accounting work, but also, for example, I was the arresting officer of Christopher Muntz, the jockey, if you remember. Oh, yes, yes. So, those sort of things give you the excitement of the job. I haven't told many people, but I'm happy to say it here, I was a trained UC operative until my cover was blown because of cricket.

[00:47:49] I did a couple of those jobs too, and that gave me a lot of excitement too. But in the last one third of my time with ICAC, and unfortunately I can't select my postings, I got involved in research and in internal audit. I did the FATF mutual evaluation of anti money laundering standards in 2011 12. I used to prepare briefing notes for EXCO and the ORC and ACOC.

[00:48:13] ORC, the Operation Review Committee, which reviews all cases we investigate. So that was not as interesting. It was still a job that had to be done. So, first to third of my career, ICAC, fantastic. 

[00:48:22] Colin: And your brother worked in the ICAC? 

[00:48:25] Anoop: He's still there. 

[00:48:25] Colin: Still there? He's still working there? He's still there.

[00:48:26] And he is still there enjoying life? 

[00:48:29] Anoop: He's now in charge of restraint of assets and confiscation, yes. 

[00:48:33] Colin: Um, so, let's talk a little bit about the ICAC. A lot of people criticize it. I don't. I think it was very badly needed in the early days here in Hong Kong. But looking at the ICAC today, where it's going, New buildings, a lot of money's being spent, a lot of advertising.

[00:48:50] Has it gone too far? Is it still needed? Do we need an independent commission to deal purely with corruption still in Hong Kong? In your view, the reason why we went to the ICAC is that the police were inherently corrupt, and therefore you had to have the independent commission established to deal with the massive corruption, Godba, all his money, Treasure Island, Cheung Chau, all those allegations, and that's why you had the independent commission.

[00:49:14] But now, with our chief executive, John Lee, ex commissioner of police as well, is it still needed, do you think? 

[00:49:20] Anoop: I think it's very much needed, it's just that the focus has changed. In the 70s and 80s, as you indicated. We had about 70 percent of the cases were public sector cases involving, involving the police, other government departments, public bodies, hospital authority, whatever.

[00:49:36] It's now totally reversed. It's now private sector corruption. And I think private sector corruption won't go away. With the integration of Hong Kong businesses with China, I don't think you can wish that away. 

[00:49:46] Colin: So you need more powers from the ICAC to investigate the corruptions in, let's say, Buying, selling, commissions, China, etc.

[00:49:55] Otherwise, the big concept here, 

[00:49:57] Anoop: you know. And elections, and clean elections. 

[00:50:00] Colin: Exactly, so they investigate the elections as well. So, you spent your time at the ICAC, you got Meritors Service, You know, medals from a chief executive and you obviously enjoyed yourself as well. Looking back at it all, do you feel that it was something moving forward?

[00:50:18] Do you feel that you contributed? That you were able to feel comfortable with all the work that you did and how you dealt with it all? 

[00:50:25] Anoop: Absolutely. I mean, it's a job of course, but I do feel that I have contributed to society. Whatever little bit I've done has helped in cleaning corruption. I feel very gratified with that.

[00:50:35] Colin: Is Hong Kong more corrupt than others? I know in the early days, clearly in the 80s when I came here, there was corruption all over the place. But today? 

[00:50:49] Anoop: I think a common man is not affected by corruption. I think every citizen of Hong Kong, resident of Hong Kong, they go about their business without really having to encounter corruption.

[00:50:59] So I don't think the common man is frustrated because of corruption. But as I said, business corruption is there and you can't wish that away. 

[00:51:06] Colin: Okay. You retired from the ICAC. And before we go on to our favorite sport, cricket, um, you're, you're now with a A well known accountancy firm, Baker Tilly. Let me plug it for you in any methods.

[00:51:19] What are you doing for them at the moment? 

[00:51:21] Anoop: So basically, I'm carrying on with my forensic accounting work. Baker Tilly opened their, their own forensic accounting section late last year and they asked me to join them as a consultant. So basically, any clients they get which require forensic accounting inputs, I will provide for them.

[00:51:39] And similarly, if I get any clients and I need Because I don't have any staff myself, then I will use the Big Attili staff to help me. So far, I've done quite a bit of work in terms of civil litigation. There are one or two in the pipeline for criminal work. We'll see how it goes. 

[00:51:55] Colin: Gamekeeper turned poacher.

[00:51:57] Isn't that the expression that is used a little bit? 

[00:52:01] Anoop: I'm not sure the literal sense, but yes, I mean, I think it's important to be mentally and physically active after you retire from work. 

[00:52:07] Colin: Yeah, exactly. Now, let's go on to the interesting topic, which both you and I enjoy very much. Cricket. Tell us, how did your love in the start for the sport?

[00:52:18] Give me your story and I'll give you my story. 

[00:52:20] Anoop: Okay. I don't think there's any Indian who doesn't love cricket. Of course. It's in our blood. 

[00:52:24] Colin: Yes. 

[00:52:25] Anoop: Right. I didn't play cricket at all in my college days, university days, because I was doing my chartered accountancy university together. 18 hours a day. So there was no time for cricket.

[00:52:36] So when I came to Hong Kong, And my, my, my daughter was, was keen to find a sport. I pushed her into cricket and 

[00:52:43] Colin: excellent. 

[00:52:44] Anoop: And Hong Kong cricket club has a gappers program for, for children. So I pushed her there and I would go with her, try and encourage her and be an assistant coach, as you say. Mark Chapman, if you remember, it's from Peter Chapman.

[00:52:56] He, he, he got, he got on again through the Gappers program to, to be a great cricketer. 

[00:53:01] Colin: Now playing for New Zealand, a one day game, he's in international squad, yeah. 

[00:53:05] Anoop: And my daughter went on to Captain Hong Kong before she retired, so I'm glad I pushed her into cricket. But coming back to that, I, I was told in those days, The Hong Kong Cricket Club, this was in around 2000, that there was a major shortage of umpires in Hong Kong.

[00:53:19] And whether I would consider, I thought I was too old to start playing at that age, but I would consider becoming an umpire. So that led me into umpiring actually. So I took the UK exams, I cleared that, started doing domestic cricket, and started enjoying it. Then I wanted to do international. So I went on to the Asian Cricket Council.

[00:53:38] took their exams, came first in Asia, so they sent me to ICC as an understudy to Simon Toffle and and our friend Daryl Hare, who has some reputation. So, I was assessed by them, trained by them, and then I did the Cricket Australia exams, and I think now I can empower anywhere in the world except India.

[00:53:55] Which is ironical, but so be it. So I went on to umpire 500 games before retiring and then went into administration with Cricket Hong 

[00:54:04] Colin: Kong. Now it goes back a little bit because my experience with cricket, I came out to Hong Kong in the early 80s, 81. And I started playing cricket at Hong Kong University because we had a pitch and we had a ground and Martin Savard.

[00:54:18] And that's how I got to know everyone. And John Cribbin, who was Honorary Secretary of the Cricket Association for Before Sippy, who late departed, was a wonderful man, he was very much involved in the Cricket Association. Sippy's 

[00:54:30] Anoop: brother was my family doctor in India. Exactly, yeah. 

[00:54:33] Colin: So it's a very, very small world.

[00:54:34] Sippy was a great player, great bowler. And I've always tried to play a bit of cricket, but now, occasionally I play, we have a game against the judiciary. Cricket in Hong Kong is really beginning to take off. So you're now on an international level. Independent Director of the Cricket Association. So you're heavily involved in the administration of the sport here in Hong Kong at the moment as well.

[00:54:56] And you were telling me just before we started that you're spending a good part of your week, four days a week or three days a week, doing all the cricket work. What keeps you so busy there? What are you doing all the time? 

[00:55:06] Anoop: I'm a selector as well. We're trying to change a lot of processes. I'm in charge of compliance and governance.

[00:55:13] I'm also on the Asian Cricket Council Finance Committee, which is why I was traveling over the weekend. And what's keeping us busy at the moment is the Sixers, which we are resurrecting on the 1st, of November. 

[00:55:25] Colin: Be a great event for Hong Kong, but that's for our listeners. I mean cricket is a great sport in Hong Kong. Minority communities here the Indian community the Bangladeshi community the Pakistani community the Australian community and of course expatriates also many local Schools are now taking up the sport, and in particular, China is very, very important.

[00:55:45] Getting the pitches for the Asian Games. Cricket will be played at the Asian Games. So we're trying to get more cricket pitches to develop playing cricket in Hong Kong. One of the big issues in Hong Kong is finding the cricket pitches. We have KCC, we have Hong Kong Cricket Club, we, what do they call it?

[00:56:01] Jim Drinker's Bay. Jim Drinker's Bay. It's the middle of nowhere. But at least you can play cricket. Is the government helping out as much as we would like them to help cricket with pitches and expanding? 

[00:56:13] Anoop: So, let me say this, we've spent a lot of time in China this year, just to spread the game in China.

[00:56:18] Now that cricket is an Olympic sport, it's to be played in the Los Angeles Olympics. 

[00:56:22] Colin: It'll be 2020, do we think? Yes, definitely. Definitely, and it'll be 2020 cricket. Yeah. 

[00:56:28] Anoop: And then, after that The next Olympics is in Brisbane, so we're hoping Australia would also play cricket in the Olympics. So China's taking cricket very seriously.

[00:56:37] I think that's had a knock on effect on Hong Kong, too. And recently we've been allowed extra usage of the turf wicket that we have at Mission Road, which is opposite KG5 school. Yes, yes. And then they're going to construct Whitehead, Mount Shan, in due course. Funding and let's go permitting, of course. So I think Hong Kong is now taking it seriously.

[00:56:58] What people What people don't realize is cricket is a team sport. Hong Kong is ranked 22nd in the world, and that is the highest rank any Hong Kong team sport has achieved. 

[00:57:08] Colin: Yes, compared 

[00:57:09] Anoop: to football or any other team sport. And also our women's team. More than 50 percent of the girls who play for Hong Kong are Chinese.

[00:57:16] Are local Chinese. 

[00:57:17] Colin: Yes, yes. 

[00:57:18] Anoop: I think the perception is it's an expat sport. Uh, the origins are, but I think it's spreading amongst the local community. 

[00:57:25] Colin: And that's fantastic. And in our firm here at Bowes Graham Collins, we've done our bit to help the growth of e cricket. We sponsor the Hong Kong Dragons.

[00:57:33] Visit all Chinese development team. Help us out with how do we do it. Get to the grassroots here in Hong Kong, to get people the grassroots into cricket. 

[00:57:42] Anoop: So that's the thing, it's got to start at the school level. So we are making now a very ambitious and aggressive pitch to go into the local schools. And with China, as I said, China taking it seriously and there's going to be a blitz.

[00:57:54] I mean, the China National Games, which is going to be hosted next year, there's a strong bid for cricket to be included in it. And if it is included, Hong Kong has offered to host it. Now that will give a big, big push to the game, to the China market, and of course, to Hong Kong as well. People in Hong Kong, I think, are seeing that.

[00:58:11] And hopefully, I think it'll spread pretty 

[00:58:13] Colin: fast. I forgot, do you miss umpiring a little bit? 

[00:58:17] Anoop: I think life's got to move on. In 2014, I had a detached retina, and my eyesight was never the same. As you grow older, your hearing is never the same. So I, I, I always felt we should leave. When you think it's time to go, not when people tell you that you should leave.

[00:58:32] Colin: We all get to that age now, we're all beginning to feel we're not as good as we all were in respect to other matters as well. What I am interested in too, and just talking about for Hong Kong, where we are at the moment, you do your cricket. You're also involved in the Certified Fraud Examiners. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[00:58:51] Anoop: Yeah, so this is a U. S. This institute basically trains people to become fraud examiners. It's an examination process. And it's people who are involved in investigations and internal audits. Compliance basically. I help in the training of certified fraud examiners in Hong Kong. So I'm a director.

[00:59:13] Occasionally conduct lectures, sessions, seminars to basically spread the knowledge, spread my experience. Show people the tools and how they could be used to detect fraud. 

[00:59:22] Colin: So it's quite interesting, you have your new role at Baker Tilly. You have your role at the, these examiners and at the same time you have your cricket role.

[00:59:31] How do you find all the time to do all of this? There's no retirement for you. Absolutely. Is it? You're even busier than you were beforehand. You're 

[00:59:37] Anoop: absolutely right. I'm, I'm busier than I was when I had a full time job at the ICC. You're absolutely right. 

[00:59:43] Colin: Enjoyable now, your life? The diversity of doing 

[00:59:46] Anoop: it all?

[00:59:46] Absolutely. I'm enjoying every minute of it. 

[00:59:48] Colin: What I'd like to ask my guests, you've been in Hong Kong since mid 80s, I was here in early 81. We can't bury our head in the sand, there's been issues and difficulties here with troubles, national security law. But Hong Kong is your home, and how do you see the city moving forward?

[01:00:06] Anoop: You're right, I mean Notwithstanding our origins, I've spent the majority of our life in Hong Kong and therefore we consider Hong Kong to be home. I have great faith in the future of Hong Kong. I think Hong Kong is extremely resilient. They always bounce back. We've had our problems, as you've mentioned, including COVID, but my children were born here.

[01:00:23] They can't think of any other place but Hong Kong and therefore I would retire in Hong Kong, notwithstanding it being an expensive city to retire in. 

[01:00:31] Colin: It is a fabulous place. I mean, one area I did want to sort of, you know, mention is that my grandson. is in the French international school. Can I get him interested in cricket now?

[01:00:43] I'm trying very hard. The French international school is very difficult. So he doesn't realize this is to teach him a bit of manners and style. He's gonna have to go to the cricket club. It's only next door. I know. I know it is. I know it is. I'm trying to get him to play cricket because I think cricket has the great ability to give manners sporting prowess and the ability to be a lady or a gentleman, the way which sports should be carried out.

[01:01:07] I wish people don't realize that now. I mean, sport has, has so many different dimensions to it as well. Well, I'm glad it's been a great pleasure talking to you here on Law More. I think you're having your new career. It's going to give you numerous opportunities. It's been a fascinating time to chat with you.

[01:01:25] Thank you so much for joining us on Law More. Thank you. 

[01:01:28] Anoop: Thank you, Colin. Thank you for having me.