Episode 47 - Hannes and Johannes

In this episode, we welcome two prominent members of the German business community: Hannes Farlock, Delegate and Chief Representative of German Industry and Commerce Ltd, and Johannes Hack, President of the German Chamber of Commerce. Hannes and Johannes join our Senior Partner Colin Cohen for a wide-ranging discussion about relations, trade and cultural ties between Germany and Hong Kong, with Brexit and football also on the agenda. Stay tuned. 

 00:44 Introduction and Guest Welcome
 01:39 Current Activities and Delegations
 03:03 Understanding the GIC and Its Role
 04:41 Collaboration Between GIC and the German Chamber
 07:17 German Presence and Influence in Hong Kong
 10:28 Cultural and Educational Ties
 13:01 Internships and Working Holiday Scheme
 15:12 Brexit and Its Implications
 17:28 Hannes and Johannes Video Series
 19:25 Experiences in Germany
 29:26 Perceptions and Future of Hong Kong
 32:53 Conclusion and Final Thoughts 

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter    

Transcript

[00:44:00] Coiln: Welcome to our podcast. On this occasion, I have the unique experience of welcoming not one guest, but two guests. Hannes Farlock is Delegate and Chief Representative of the German Industry and Commerce Limited, otherwise known as GIC. Which is strictly and effectively the German trade mission in Hong Kong.

GIC works hand in hand with the German Chambers of Commerce, whose president is our other guest, Johannes Hack.

I'm hoping to have a nice chat with both Hannes and Johannes about all matters relating to Hong Kong and Germany, finance, trade, bilateral relations and the like, Maybe a little bit of Brexit. And I'm sure our conversation would inevitably turn to football.

Gentlemen, welcome to Law & More. As I always ask our guests what has been keeping you busy lately, Hannahs, perhaps you would like to start.

[00:45:03] Hannes: Oh, sure. So thanks a lot for inviting us to this podcast. Yeah, it's always nice to be the two of us. As you know, we have a video blog, actually, we are about to shoot tomorrow.

So that's kind of a good preparation for us. Yeah, there was no real summer break actually this year, which is good. Hong Kong is keeping us busy. Essentially what we were doing is we were preparing for quite some delegations actually for next week. We have four upcoming delegations. Bavarian food producers, german business people who are just interested in reconnecting with Hong Kong.

So, yeah. Very good, very fast paced summer I would say.

[00:45:44] Coiln: Johannes, yourself?

[00:45:45] Johannes: Obviously Hong Kong, after August, everyone comes back and then I think everyone decides that they all want to have their events in October and November.

So I think we're basically in the midst of that. There's one other thing. We have a dual vocational training. So the Germans here for 40 years now have been training apprentices in the German apprenticeship system. And that school will need to reconfigure itself slightly next year. And I've been quite busy on that.

It turns out if you open a school in Hong Kong, it's not quite that simple a matter. So that's been keeping me quite busy.

[00:46:19] Coiln: Great, let's talk a little bit with Hannes about the GIC. Now, as I understand matters, GIC is a government supported organization Germany. 

[00:46:29] Hannes: Yeah, that's true.

[00:46:30] Coiln: And what you are doing here is encouraging new establishments to come into Germany,

from Germany to come to Hong Kong. so how do you go about that? I mean, know, what do you do?

It's not an easy task, I think. 

[00:46:44] Hannes: Yes, I would say our, our remit is threefold.

Of course, it all started with German business people, some 40 this year will be 41 years ago, establishing a business association. So that laid the grounds basically for everything that is happening. And this is essentially what is now called the German chamber of commerce. And then a little bit later in 86, actually German industry and commerce started reflecting, of course, the interest of German companies to enter into the market.

And this goes, of course, hand in hand, of course, we're two organizations, but we are essentially one. it's basically three things, right? For the local companies, we try to provide a platform for exchange and networking. At the end of the day, also lobbying, political lobbying, of course.

As towards companies who are coming into Hong Kong, we basically position ourselves as a one stop shop. So we facilitate their market entry and accompany them all the way, right? Like initially finding business partners establishing a company finding suitable stuff kind of incubating these companies and what we call the German hub within the structure of the chamber.

 And eventually, of course, they become happy members of the German chamber and then it starts all over again, right? 

[00:47:57] Coiln: Yeah. Now, as I said before both of you two work very closely together. I know you're a very eminent banker on the side, but you did tell me before we started talking that you spend about two days a week of your time enhancing and developing the chamber.

Give us a good example of how you two liaise and how you two work together or don't you work together?

[00:48:17] Johannes: Oh, we, we, we totally work together. So we work together essentially very much hand in hand. We have a meeting every week and lasts about two hours. It's usually meant to last an hour. It turns usually into two hours. We're very closely aligning the initiatives that we have. The work split we have at the moment is, I tend to do more of the liaison with the Hong Kong government because, of course, I can validly claim that we represent the German Chamber, the interests of the people who are already here, so we, we make our voice heard there.

It's slightly easier for us to do that than perhaps the GIC, which coming in from Germany, may need to take a slightly different stance there. We have In our chamber, we basically live off the networking that Hannes has already mentioned, and we have a number of committees, which is where the actual work gets done.

We had a meeting this morning of our Human Resources Committee, so we put together guidance on how to execute apprenticeship. We put together a survey on remuneration and working conditions in Hong Kong. These are the type of things that the chairman does. And Hannes meanwhile, as he has mentioned, out there making sure that all the delegations who come into Hong Kong get a warm welcome and get to see and feel what the city is about and that it's still a good place to live.

[00:49:35] Coiln: And I presume you do work reasonably closely with the German consulate. 

[00:49:39] Hannes: Oh, definitely, definitely. I mean, we are always talking about the three pillars of German foreign export promotion, which is basically, of course, the consulates. So we have a consulate here since last year we celebrated The 70th anniversary, so it's 71 years already. And then it's us, of course as German Industry Commerce in the chamber.

And then we have an organization called Germany Trade and Invest. And, I mean, as you know everything is very close, also in terms of, like, geographical distances in Hong Kong. And we are really close to each other. This is not our topic today, but we work also alongside agile processes. So we are basically working in sprints.

We are meeting up regularly to really discuss progress. We have now major projects to accomplish, like the establishment of a German business school. So that really demands a close collaboration and that works quite well. 

[00:50:32] Coiln: Yeah, I mean it's quite interesting. I mean, how many Germans do you think there are in Hong Kong? I think it's difficult to work that out. I dunno how many Brits are here because you've got those with work permits. Immigration will tell you that, but then if you become permanent resident, you can't get that information.

But, I know many very well known Germans are here, the main companies are here as well. Numbers?

[00:50:52] Hannes: Well, my wife always says basically before she got to know me, she's from the mainland, from China. She didn't know any Germans in Hong Kong, until she knows me. She has a feeling that Germans are all over the place. But that's, that's true, right? It's very, very difficult. Also there's data protection.

Of course we have a feeling it's around two to two and half thousand to be honest. 

[00:51:12] Coiln: And the major, big hitters, the big companies are all here. BMW, Mercedes, the German efficiency and everything else.

[00:51:21] Johannes: Big companies are here. if you look at our membership, I think it's fair to say, although the big companies are here, probably what is more important really for Hong Kong is perhaps some of the more medium sized with a particular focus on logistics and on sourcing, because that really underlines what Hong Kong is there for.

So all of the German supermarkets, any German supermarket you've been to over the summer, anything you've bought there that wasn't a fruit or vegetable or meat, anything durable, will have been sourced via Hong Kong. And that's a big franchise in our membership. Plus, obviously, a number of the MNCs, BASF, Siemens, who still have strong operations here.

[00:51:57] Coiln: And of course, the big issue here, the big relationship is Germany and China, I mean, it's incredible the amount of trade there are, they are big trading partners. And I presume what you're trying to do is to encourage Germans to have Hong Kong as the base for their entry into China, because all the resources we have here, the courts, the financing as well. 

So tell us about that, how you help people going into China.

[00:52:22] Hannes: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what is interesting, actually, and we have, for instance, been visiting Bayer at this week. And many of the companies as Johannes mentioned, they are here since a very long time. So the most longstanding company is actually a company called Melchers here since 166 years. Right. And Bayer for instance, they're here for 

[00:52:41] Coiln: Bayer, just for our listeners, is Bayer, the pharmaceutical comany.

[00:52:45] Hannes: Pharmaceutical and healthcare.

[00:52:46] Coiln: Which is very interesting, because the best football team, Bayer Leversuchen, Leversuchen, Leversuchen, Bayer Leversuchen, have done really well, and I went to their stadium is in the Ruhr area.

Bayer, your first name is that of the chemical company. Only in Germany

[00:53:04] Hannes: I knew you would jump on football the first opportunity you get actually.

[00:53:07] Coiln: Thank you very much.

[00:53:08] Hannes: But that's, that's not our strong point with Johannes actually. We share quite a lot also. Yeah, but that's true. And they are here since 66 years. So, so many of the retailers, many of the big companies, they are here.

And of course these days it's, it's a struggle actually to convince companies coming here. And especially those who have a general interest, yeah, which is basically the prerequisite. Not looking directly into China but really elaborating on what is the distant, distinct strong points of Hong Kong.

Yes, that's good. 

[00:53:44] Coiln: Good, another area which is very interesting is the the Gerta Institute, the cultural institutes. Do you work closely with Johannes? Do you work closely with them or do you help them or do you have cultural events which you arrange for your org or is it all purely business?

[00:53:57] Johannes: Firstly, my wife works for the Goethe Institut, so I have a....

[00:54:01] Coiln: oh really? So you must say, I insist you say so you know all about it. 

[00:54:04] Johannes: I don't think I know all about it, but clearly Good Institute. If we're talking about four three pillars, then Good Institute is the fourth pillar, really, because Good Institute, of course, is the one that does bring culture to Hong Kong.

And as Chamber, we liaise with them. We offer them support. We had a triple anniversary last year, which was 40 years of the chamber, 60 years of good, or 70 years of the German consulate where we all joined hands together. So yes, we do work along with them too. They are finding, actually, this is again a point where, going back to what you were saying earlier, they do find that the interest in learning German at the moment, it has been better.

So they are also, obviously, quite keen going out there marketing the German language for people from Hong Kong to go out and go to Germany because we share, obviously, in Germany the issue. We need talent. We could be getting that talent from Hong Kong. 

[00:54:53] Hannes: So my wife is learning German there, and for those who are listening to our podcast in Hong Kong, please feel free to join the German Film Festival. It just kicked off last week, actually. Very interesting films. It's over the whole month of October and beginning of November, 

[00:55:09] Coiln: Fantastic, well, that's a good plug as well. Education is very, very important in Hong Kong and for people who come here to live here, they still want to wear a short term, long term. The German Swiss school, which formed many, many years ago between Germany and Switzerland. Any connections with the school, anything for education points of view?

[00:55:29] Johannes: Well, clearly the educational point plays a very big role in attracting mostly actually Hong Kongers to think about Germany because the reputation of GSIS is so excellent that you find that the the IB part of that is clearly very much sought after and that of course then has an overlap with the German streamers.

You're probably aware GSIS has two streams and so GSIS basically is the flagship if you will for raising awareness about the quality of the German education system which then again feeds into bringing people from Hong Kong into Germany to take up studies there. The other way around, getting people from Germany into Hong Kong, clearly for some experts, it plays a big role.

The fact that GSIS has such an excellent reputation helps. On the other hand, clearly it's not exactly cheap.

[00:56:17] Coiln: What else is interesting between Hong Kong and Germany is the Working Holiday Scheme for young Germans. Australia has it, whereby you can come to Hong Kong on a working visa if you're under a certain age as well. Are you familiar with that? Have you had any people coming in? So you have an internship in your bank if a youngster wants to come and he's under a certain age.

It was normally aimed for people working in restaurants and other stuff in Australia and Hong Kong took that on as being an extra dimension to encourage young people from Germany coming to Hong Kong.

[00:56:46] Johannes: I have to say I wasn't aware of that. Luckily we find, perhaps because we're a bank, we find it extremely easy to work with Hong Kong immigration. They're being extremely good. We do have at any given time about five interns from Germany in my bank. So we have a very steady exchange. And that is something that plays very well into branding and marketing Hong Kong.

Because all these people, when they do go back to Germany, they usually attend the kind of universities that Hong Kong is keen on getting graduates from. So they do an internship here, they go back to Germany, and after they finish their studies, many of them will then think about coming back to Hong Kong to work here.

[00:57:23] Coiln: Yes, and of course, in our firm, we are part of a global Referral Network. We have a wonderful German firm called Melchers, well known, and I took their partner to the Germany Spain game, but we'll talk about that a little bit later.

But we had an internship from their firm coming to our firm, which was brilliant because, I learned a little bit about the common law, we learned a bit about Germany, and again, the immigration were very helpful and He didn't put up any difficult hurdles. He's just filling in a few forms and getting the law society's consent.

So it is a good relationship. And also the other plug is [Patrick Self]. Our consultant is a German lawyer, German registered foreign lawyer at our firm. So again, he encourages people from German companies who need assistance and legal work establishing coming into our firm as well. 

[00:58:10] Hannes: Just on the topic, we also have interns and we generally have a feeling it's not so difficult both to attract young Germans into Hong Kong and also getting visa for them. But it's more difficult actually get middle and and senior management into Hong Kong, especially with families, right? There is a real, real difference.

[00:58:28] Coiln: let's talk a little bit about something important, which is Brexit. I had my last guest on, Jennifer Bourke, the Consulate General of Ireland, and we talked about Brexit, and Brexit is important. There's a new government in UK.

Which are trying to perhaps enhance relationships. But was Brexit a surprise for you? I mean, it's messed me up traveling around Europe at the moment, with all the Schengen and all the other issues as well. Your views, gentlemen?

[00:58:54] Johannes: Basically all my life I've been very interested in things British. So I thought I understood a bit about what they were on about. And in that sense it was a surprise. I remember waking up and looking at the election results coming in, thinking, Oh dear.

And then all that process afterwards which was quite drawn out. So, I think to illustrate in practical terms, we're speaking just now about interns. Our bank has a branch in London, and we used to have a very extensive back and forth flow of interns coming into our London branch.

And ever since Brexit, that's become extremely complicated. We now have to actually spend a lot of money, quite a substantial amount of money, on getting visas for these guys. And that is clearly something where I think personally the UK perhaps is depriving itself of talent and of people that could be helpful.

And I think that economically speaking, that's maybe not the best way to go. I do get the impression that people are thinking about it what this Brexit thing is. But of course, I think it's also fair to say it's been a decision that was done by the by the majority, and it's not easy to overturn something like that.

So I think it'll probably be a bit of time in the making until you perhaps revisit it. 

[01:00:03] Coiln: Yeah, I mean it'll never change. But what is happening now, Sir Keir Starmer, the new Prime Minister is meeting Europe and he is trying to enhance and strengthen the relationships and maybe, I know Germany is busy putting in new immigration rules, but we're going to have to get visas to go to Europe, and it's not difficult, but it's a pain in the neck.

And every time you go, you're in Schengen, the minute you go out to the UK, stamp, and back in again, and you're limited to 90 days and 180 days, so, it's not great. And I'm sure one of the Issues which has led to the economic decline was the moving out of Brexit and there's so many other issues with that.

But anyway, let's move on a bit to another topic, which I am very interested in, is what you two do together. Now, you have these wonderful videos, starring Hannes and Johannes, whereby you go about Hong Kong and you present updates. So how did that all come about? What's the genesis of that wonderful project?

[01:00:59] Johannes: The only thing I can recall is that, we started out as Johannes and Hannes, and my contribution was saying that Hannes and Johannes somehow sounded more rhythmic.

I don't think that other than that, I had any hand in that. When Hannes came over, one of the colleagues at the time had this idea of doing an introductory video, and then we said, well, why don't we do it together? And then it dawned on us, which obviously you hear us can't see, but we are two bald guys with similar sounding names. So I guess somehow that idea was born.

[01:01:27] Coiln: Just give us a little taster, you are about to do another one tomorrow, I understand. So tell us, what you are doing. 

[01:01:33] Johannes: Well, I think what we're trying to do is they're geared towards Germans. So the idea is to make Germans see that there is more to Hong Kong than what gets portrayed in German media, which one has to admit, it's a bit one sided.

So we were trying to show Germans in Germany, what Hong Kong is about. At the same time, of course, we are a chamber, we are GIC, so we do need to say something topical. So what we're trying to do is to combine the two and just wander about Hong Kong and go to those places that maybe not that many people know about.

 We've been to places like Dutch Lane, we've been to the Tinworth Trail, I think to this day Hannah's favourite five hour hike. He still thanks me for that. 

[01:02:09] Coiln: I hear you love Hiking. 

[01:02:10] Johannes: He's super enthusiastic. And so we ander about, and then we talk about, Topical things in Hong Kong.

We've been to the Northern Metropolis. We'll be going tomorrow. Spoiler alert. We'll be going to the airport, talk about logistics, obviously talk about the policy address. And so we're trying to put that into a little bit of snippets and try and see how that works. 

[01:02:32] Coiln: It is a great watch that everyone just go on YouTube, say Hannes and Johannes and watch them 'cause they are great. Now let's talk a little bit about Germany. 'cause I think our listeners are interested in Germany. I spent five full weeks in Germany watching football for the Euros from the very beginning to the very end.

I travelled all over, I went to 7 different cities from the north to the south to the east to the west. I saw 15 games and I used the trains everywhere and I used the transport. Now, I was told to expect disaster. The trains are useless. Complete opposite. , I don't call a train being five minutes late late, but I thought it was magnificent for communications and with transportations around Germany.

And yet every other German I spoke to was really ranting and raving how awful it is. And it's a mess. There was one incident I'll talk about a little bit later about Gelshricken, but we'll talk about that in a second. And why, why are you all beating yourselves up on your train stations and your railways?

[01:03:34] Johannes: You're in charge...

[01:03:35] Hannes: I knew this question would come up. I cannot tell you. I mean, we are living in Hong Kong, but what I like about your point is that we always say seeing is believing, right? And I'm very delighted to hear that you had a good experience. My circle of friends, they're not a football lover, so I don't have any other quotes on that, right?

How was it during the championship? I just read about it and it's good to hear that it wasn't that bad, actually. Well, I don't know. And another person I talked to last week, actually from Hong Kong Metropolitan University, they are also doing dual vocational training. We are doing also projects with them, said he's going to Stuttgart.

[01:04:12] Coiln: I was there, wonderful place.

[01:04:14] Hannes: Exactly. Since many years. And what he just observed, he was there the last time five years ago, and then he just came this summer, and basically this building site around the train station, nothing changed.

[01:04:25] Coiln: Well, no, it, it, he's right. It was amazing. I went from Dusseldoff down to Stuttgart. And wow, I couldn't believe it. Finding my way out and there was a massive building site. And someone said to me, they've got one little bit, which has built for seven, eight years. They can't make up their minds. They keep on changing it and changing it as well. But it was nice place.

I was at the Meridian, which was walking around up the hill. And then I found a great bar to watch some games the night before we saw the game in Stuttgart, which was wonderful. It was the Germany Spain game. Which my friend from Bodovinen, who is the partner of Melchor's, I invited him to come and he made me wear a German shirt.

I wore the German shirt and I was supporting Germany against Spain, but Spain won.

But, it was a great, great occasion. Efficient. Getting to the ground, getting out of the ground. We took the train there and all the rest as well. And it was a fabulous, fabulous atmosphere. I think it was a great event for the Euros as well.

But Stuttgart, you're right, on one hand it's a complete mess, building everywhere. But then you drill down into the place. People were nice, people were helpful. 

[01:05:31] Hannes: Yeah, Absolutely. I can understand, without judgment, but, when people are living here and they are seeing how fast big projects are executed and then they go into Europe, not only, I would say, into Germany, and they see that, basically, progress is slower, they are, of course, somehow opinionated around that. Yeah, but that's essentially what it is, right?

[01:05:51] Coiln: Yeah, I mean, I had never been to Berlin. Never. And that was the first time there. And what a great city and the differences between the old part of Berlin, you go around, you see it, all the streets, the people, the walking to them, then all of a sudden you get in Checkpoint Charlie, go over the area and you've got these massive straight roads, which reminded you of Russia and all the rest, but it was nice.

It was wonderful and I enjoyed that and everyone said to me, how could you enjoy that? I did enjoy it is a great city.

[01:06:20] Johannes: Berlin's a fantastic city. I was born there, I stood on the Berlin Wall on 10th of November 1989. So I've done the whole thing.

The reaction that you've had is one I hear a lot. People come, people visit, they're super taken with the city. To live there is perhaps a bit more complicated, because there are certain things that don't work all that well.

So administration of the city, the actual running of the city on a day to day basis, getting stuff done, bureaucracy, schools, these are complicated issues. And there's work being done on that, but if you live there on an ongoing basis, the friends I have who live in Berlin, have lived in Berlin all their lives, it used to be, better in the sense that it used to be a bit better run.

And I think this goes back to the point we just had on speed and how easy are things to execute. Germany, in many ways, I guess, is experiencing a sort of fatigue. Things taking very long. Decisions are very complicated. Things don't move along quickly. And people feel somehow, I think, that this should all go much faster.

But on the other hand, of course, as you were saying, when you drill down, People are nice and things are extremely well done. So once the train station does get built, it's going to be a fantastic train station. It's going to be safe. It's going to be, it's going to be fancy and that takes time. And there's that, that clash of experiences in people's mind about that.

[01:07:43] Coiln: Yeah, I would say that the police made every station very quiet and nice. They moved everyone on in Frankfurt, every single allegation, every potential sort of layabout. Mind you, the French did the same for the Olympics, which I would say they cleaned it all out. It looks very good.

But what I did enjoy about Germany was when I went to the football matches, I went to Turkey play, Albania play. The massive amount of Germans who are Turkish but they have German passports, all of them they're speaking excellent English and German, and I had a go at them saying, Who do you really support?

They said, of course, Turkey. But they were passionate, and they've done so well. And these are the younger generation I was talking to, whose parents went in and now they are German, but they have their Turkish heritage, and with all the shops and all the other people, I quite was impressed with the way of the integration of migrants, I was impressed with that as well. I know there must be other problems. I read about the right wing and all the other politics as well. But what I saw was a quite a decent society. That's what I saw. Maybe people say I was being sort of blinkered. I don't think I am a blinkered person.

[01:08:46] Johannes: The integration of the Turkish population in Germany probably started in the mid sixties, when we had a big wave of migration from Turkey because we needed a strong workforce. And so this has been going on for more than a generation.

And I think probably these days, if you look at the cause of stress for Germans, that will be more in the area of people who've come more recently, and we find it as a country, and I think that's also something that perhaps applies to Hong Kong. We find as a country not that easy to attract the talent that we want to attract.

And we end up attracting a lot of people who obviously feel that Germany is a good place to live, and it is, but it's not necessarily always exactly the ones that we're after as a country that would enhance our workforce. And again, it's that friction between two conflicting goals that makes people feel that this isn't the direction of travel, isn't exactly what it should be.

[01:09:37] Coiln: Yeah, I mean, that is very, very interesting in respect of people's perceptions, and I agree, it's difficult in respect of matters. Now, there was a article in this week's Economist that had a rather critical, it's called the Expresso, it's very short, and it says German economy is going down. As simple as that, it was a sort of a typical expresso matter saying there's going to be a down for this year, then maybe it will sort of refix itself as well.

Your views on the German economy? Economists likes to be a little bit provocative perhaps, but it, but the figures there showed a downturn.

[01:10:13] Johannes: Well, I think the German economy is very similar in many ways to the Chinese one. Germany is very focused on export. It's been very successful at export for many, many years. Germany does not have a lot of domestic consumption. Germans tend to save a lot, as do the Chinese, so in that sense they're quite similar.

Domestic consumption really isn't adding as much as GDP as it should. People are worried about their jobs, they're worried about the state of the economy, so they're not spending. And export is down because Germany has become, in some industries, probably a bit slow to adapt to things. Obviously, the key topic is automotive and the adoption of EVs.

That's something where we're perhaps just not up to speed. And I think that's what Germany is going through at the moment. In a sense, it's something that Mainland China is also going through a restructuring of its economy, which hurts, and which is going to take time, and in the case of Germany, hasn't really found a clear focus yet on what exactly it's going to be 10 years from now.

[01:11:13] Hannes: What is interesting actually, when we are asked these questions, right, we live off the collective intelligence. of our members and not only the members here, but also members all around our network. And it was just a study been published this week. It's called Spotlight on Germany as a Business Location in 2024.

I can share that also later. And this is actually interesting. So the question was to German companies abroad. How they look upon Germany as an investment location and of course them being in touch with a lot of businesses in their respective countries. And that's, quite some concern actually. We got rather poor marks when you look at Germany's international image as a business location.

There are some concerns about business friendliness in Germany, especially the competitive edge and the innovation topic is seen rather critical. And when we ask what is the homework actually that Germany should do. Overarching 70 percent of respondents said it's a reducing bureaucracy followed by the welcome culture for companies and foreign employers.

 Which is an interesting point. Then the third one is reliable political decisions. And the same percentage, actually, the impact assessment of political decisions on companies and Germany as a business location. And then comes things like infrastructure, et cetera. But perception is actually also a big issue. And we hope we'll manage to get a turnaround here, right. At some point in time. 

[01:12:42] Coiln: Now, Hong Kong is my home. I'm here. I'm going to retire here. I live here. You two, are enjoying Hong Kong. Hong Kong's gone through some difficult times. We have to be realistic as to what's happened in the past. We can't bury our heads. But your views on Hong Kong going forward, both of you may want to remain here. Tell us what you think about Hong Kong, and how you perceive it for yourselves.

[01:13:08] Hannes: Well, again over the summer conducted a survey amongst our members. We called it the Business Confidence Survey, which we do twice a year. And that shed some light on how companies are seeing the future. Their future in Hong Kong and maybe also Hong Kong's future.

And yeah, Johannes, a mixed picture, I would say, right? I mean, those companies who are here, they still value and cherish what they have, but on the other hand, they also, of course, see that the role of Hong Kong significantly changed, so they are closely observing that, we talk about the security law and the international perception of Hong Kong which makes it actually for us also difficult to attract new companies into Hong Kong as well. 

[01:13:52] Johannes: We spoke earlier also about the composition of the English population in Hong Kong.

And when you look at the Germans in Hong Kong, you'll find that a huge number of them have been here essentially forever, 25 years, 40 years on and on. So all the ones who are here obviously are super happy. They're not expats in the sense that you're an expat in either London or Dubai where you come in for three years and then you leave again.

If you move to Hong Kong, many people decide to stay. Because it's a wonderful city and continues to be obviously still a wonderful city to live just in terms of ease of living and attractiveness of living. I think there are very few places that are better. So the ones who are here, and that's what our survey also shows, they are very happy being here.

But the perception that the image that Hong Kong has portrayed or that is being portrayed. It's very much a two way thing In the west has has led many people to wonder is it is it still an attractive place to go out and to venture into China at the moment? China is facing some economic issues. So making the case for Hong Kong as a starting point has become more difficult I think going forward There are opportunities still to re-confirm Hong Kong's role.

One thing that we keep pushing the government to do is to make it possible for Hong Kong residents to travel into the GBA because obviously in that way, via the e-channel, the scheme that they've now introduced for the 

[01:15:13] Coiln: It's very that, I've done mine and it's simple and it's so nice for the people there.

[01:15:18] Johannes: It is, but you're a PII, and so obviously in a sense, you're already here.

So there's no point in getting you here because you are here. And what we keep telling the government is, look, if you do this for people who are moving to Hong Kong, if you do it for people who are only Hong Kong residents, then you can actually attract new German talent to Hong Kong because faced with the choice of living in Hong Kong or maybe living in some of the smaller second tier cities in the GBA, probably people will be keener to move to Hong Kong and use this as a base, as a commuter town into the GBA.

So I think there are things that can be done, but it's a slow process and it's basically really getting people over every time again, making sure that they come then walking them around the city and saying, look at this, look at this, look at the MTR, look at how well things work. Look at all the things that are working extremely well.

And then they go back and then they're convinced, or at least they're willing to think again. 

[01:16:09] Coiln: I absolutely agree with you because I think Hong Kong is one of the great cities of the world. Our environment where we're set out, what you can do and all the rest. I'm also very happy to tell our listeners that, we have a German new manager for England. 

A German managing the England national team, which is a great step forward. And he said, hopefully we'll have the second star on our shirt. That means for you people who don't understand football, you get a star once you win the World Cup. So I must say, it's an auspicious time to talk to you two gentlemen.

Hannes, Johannes, it's been a privilege, an honor, and it's great to chat to you on Law & More. Thank you so much for joining me today.