Episode 48 - Geoffrey Ma

In this episode, we are thrilled to be joined by the Honourable Geoffrey Ma, the former Chief Justice of Hong Kong. Geoffrey looks back on his distinguished career, from his upbringing and education in the UK, to his many years at the Hong Kong Bar, and two decades of service with the Judiciary. He recalls memorable cases, challenges and achievements, and discusses the importance of the rule of law. As well, he talks about his love of football and cricket. Geoffrey speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

00:48 Introduction to Geoffrey Ma
02:18 Early Life and Education
04:04 Career Beginnings and Legal Practice
06:47 Transition to Judiciary
15:49 Challenges and Achievements as Chief Justice
21:62  Reflections on Legal System and Retirement
34:03 Personal Interests and Future Outlook

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter     

Transcript

[00:48:00] Colin Cohen: Welcome, everybody. I hope our guest in this episode will not be too embarrassed if I describe him as one of Hong Kong's most respected and renowned legal minds. I refer, of course, to the Honourable Geoffrey Marr, whose stellar career in the judiciary Geoffrey. accumulated in an 11 year term as Chief Justice of the Court of Final Appeal, until his retirement from that position almost four years ago.

Since then, he has returned to practice as a barrister in Temple's chambers, where he accepts appointments as an arbitrator and mediator. Jeff's professional accomplishments are numerous. As is his academic appointments. But I should make special mention that in 2012 he was awarded the Grand Bohemian Medal, Hong Kong's highest honour for public service.

Jeff, thank you for joining us on Law & More. And as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently? 

[00:49:02] Geoffrey Ma: Well, thank you for inviting me and good afternoon to everybody. What keeps me busy is you mentioned two of my activities, being an arbitrated mediator, but I'm actually more keen on what I call the charitable side of what I do.

I try to spend about half my time doing the charitable bit for schools, for universities, and then various other charities. That's what keeps me busy. 

[00:49:27] Colin Cohen: That's very good. And we'll talk about that a little bit later as well. Let's go back in time a little bit and tell us how you got into a little bit of your childhood, your background, and what got you into the law.

[00:49:39] Geoffrey Ma: Well, to cut a very long story short, I was born in Hong Kong. I My parents came down to Hong Kong from Shanghai, as did a lot of people in 1948 and 49 that were married here. I was born here. I spent a few years in the Philippines when my father worked there. I went to England when I was about 10 and stayed on until I was 23 after my legal studies and my legal training.

You asked me about how I got into law. It's entirely by accident. I did not really have a much connection with the law through family or otherwise. It was hit and miss because I was sitting one day. Wondering, as I was doing my A levels, what I should be studying at university. That was the only thing I wanted to do.

And I wanted to do history, because I was keen on that. But my elder brother said to me, Well, history is, what are you going to do with a degree? You've got to go on and do something else. So he suggested law. I then said, well that sounds interesting. Looked it up, and before I knew it, I had applied. And was doing law, so quite by accident.

[00:50:53] Colin Cohen: It really was. Your connection with Manchester, and obviously your love for Manchester United, but you were at school at Manchester, is that correct? 

[00:51:00] Geoffrey Ma: I was, and specifically just outside Manchester, at a nice little town called Altrincham. 

[00:51:07] Colin Cohen: Ah yes, a very good friend of mine lived there. 

[00:51:09] Geoffrey Ma: Right, they have a football team of course as well.

[00:51:12] Colin Cohen: Quite well known. 

[00:51:13] Geoffrey Ma: And doing fairly well I think, these days. 

[00:51:16] Colin Cohen: So, what took you to Birmingham University, if I've got it right, that's where you started? 

[00:51:19] Geoffrey Ma: Well, that's right, that's right. So, after school in Manchester, then on to Birmingham University for three years, and then I decided to go south, and that's actually going to London for my professional training, which was then called the Bar Finals.

[00:51:35] Colin Cohen: Enjoy your studies at Birmingham. Any particular subject you were interested in, which you took a liking to? 

[00:51:42] Geoffrey Ma: Birmingham had a fairly bad reputation in those days, those days being the 70s. The days of The Bull Ring, which was a truly awful place. Now it's a very fancy mall, the home of the spaghetti junction.

[00:51:57] Colin Cohen: I remember that, the M1 going round, M1 to M6. 

[00:52:01] Geoffrey Ma: It was, it had a terrible reputation, but my three years there were happy. Because I found the good side of Birmingham. It was actually very green. It's a very green place. I enjoyed it very much. My subjects, well, like anybody else, you join some topics in the law.

I can't remember what I enjoyed in particular. I think it was something weird, like company law. 

[00:52:25] Colin Cohen: That's interesting. Now, you go to London to do the bar. Why not become a solicitor? Was it the bar that sort of enticed you there, or was it any choice that you made? 

[00:52:34] Geoffrey Ma: That was also by accident because during my time in Birmingham, one of my lecturers asked me, What are you going to be?

This is my second year. Are you going to be a solicitor? or a barrister. I said, I really had not thought about this. So he said, well, I knew someone when I was at bar school and he was then a very promising barrister. I can give you his name. I haven't really kept in touch with him, but I'll give you his name, write to him, ask whether he remembers me and take it from there and see whether you can get a summer stint or a summer pupillage with this person.

I wrote to this person. Spent a good few weeks with him in the summer. And then after that, I was so attracted by the bar that I applied to his chambers for pupillage and he's remained a good friend up to this day. So I've known him now for actually exactly 50 years. He is the retired. President of the Supreme Court was Lord Philip. 

[00:53:40] Colin Cohen: And he started off in the employment tribunal chairing that.

I think you were, I think I remember that. He is very eminent one. So that was very fortunate, fortunate. And of course, when you were in the CFA, he probably sat. 

[00:53:52] Geoffrey Ma: I sat with him. That was one of my ambitions or dreams, if you like, to sit with Nicholas Phillips. And eventually I did several times. 

[00:53:59] Colin Cohen: So you did your bar exams, you did your pupillage.

very much. And you were enjoying London life, decided it's time to come back to Hong Kong, or were you thinking of staying in, in the UK? 

[00:54:09] Geoffrey Ma: In those days, I enjoyed certainly my year, and of course a year's pupillage, or however much time you did as pupillage in London, would count towards your pupillage in Hong Kong.

It was always my intention. to practice at Hong Kong, mainly because it was Hong Kong, but also in terms of prospects at the bar, Hong Kong seemed much more promising than London in those days. 

[00:54:34] Colin Cohen: Yes, and that's quite interesting because you came back in 1980, if I'm right. Yes. And that's 1980 when you were called to the bar.

I arrived in Hong Kong In 81, and one reason why I went to Hong Kong was during that time, I just qualified as a solicitor. I was working with a very nice boutique firm, Eric Levine, doing Jimmy Goldsmith's work. And all of a sudden he decides to go off to the USA, and at that time it's Thatcher, riots, All the difficulties, Brixton, and I saw loads of adverts in the paper come out to Hong Kong for incredible sums of money.

Of course, you'll never pay the amount of money, but it was. Herbert Smith offered me a job at the Princely Sum of 5, 000 a year, and I got three times as much money coming to Hong Kong in 81, thinking I'd be here for a few years. And now, 40 Four years later, I'm still here, but that's how great the place is.

So you're back in Hong Kong, you're practicing, and then all of a sudden you also get admitted a little bit later to Australia in 1983. You do Singapore in 1990, but tell us about your early years of practice. Is it straight at Temple Chambers or that was sent out? 

[00:55:39] Geoffrey Ma: Not at all. I didn't start in Temple Chambers. I started in Brooke Bernacki's chambers. He's one of the senior. He was, in fact, the senior member of the bar. And he was a very generous person. I did pupillage in those chambers with Robert Tang, who is a non permanent judge in the Court of Final Appeal. And I stayed on in Brooks Chambers. And the first couple of years were happy years because I didn't have then the practice which I then developed, which was a civil practice.

And the first couple of years. Most of my practice was in criminal law, and that was exciting. It's exciting because it's unpredictable. It was also good that I was able to travel to all parts of Hong Kong, to the various magistrates courts. You see the old Fanling, for example. Unrecognizable. And now, of course, the old Tsuen Wan magistracy and so on.

North Kowloon. North Kowloon, where if you had a successful morning, you would treat yourself to lunch at the garden restaurant near the garden bakery. And if you did really well, you would have beef curry there. But those are happy days. But after a couple of years doing mainly criminal work, somehow then.

Got into a civil work and, and unfortunately, I guess, I no longer did much criminal work until I became a judge. 

[00:57:10] Colin Cohen: You became a Queen's Council in 1993, and that's for our listeners, in 1993, King's Council, Queen's Council were, were terminology used for senior council as of now, so you're now morphed into King's Council against your name.

How did that come about? Was it just something you just applied for? Well, you felt you'd got enough experience, anything interesting with how that came about? 

[00:57:34] Geoffrey Ma: Again, like many things in my life, it's been sort of fortune and happenstance, and it's so happened, I had no intention of taking silk, you're in your, it's fairly comfortable position, and its inertia takes over.

Actually, I was having dinner last night with a person who was instrumental in my, in my Taking silk. And this was the chairman of the bar, the chairperson of the bar, Jacqueline Leung, a very eminent family lawyer. That's right. And she was chairman of the bar and she said, you should be thinking of taking silk.

So I sort of ignored her first time. She pressed me. And eventually I put in the application form. That was a little daunting, because in those days, as now, you're required to have referees. And my referee was a retired judge by the name of Derek Cohns. Yes, Court of Appeal Judge. And I saw him. And I asked him whether he would be my referee, and without smiling, he said I would be glad to be your referee, but I will not guarantee whether I give you a good reference or a bad one.

So I left his chambers, and I left it at that, and guessed, hope rightly, that it was a fairly good one. 

[00:58:47] Colin Cohen: And, when you went I remember instructing you on a couple of cases as well. Of all your time in practice, is there one case that stands out before you went to the judiciary? 

[00:58:57] Geoffrey Ma: Well, I think it's inevitable to remember cases which are of some importance.

And after I took Silk was when I developed a public law practice. The government instructed me on a couple of cases. A couple of cases led on to more cases. And this led to the series of cases known as the right of abode cases which were of some and remain of some constitutional importance. And those cases were important for the constitutional impact they had.

They were enjoyable in the sense that they were extremely challenging and also enjoyable because I got to work with a very good team and a very good team of juniors and, and in particular my junior who saw me through all of those cases. When I retired from the bar and became a judge, he took over. He by now had taken silk and he took over all those cases.

And that is my good friend, Joe Fogg. Mr Justice Fogg in the Court of Final Appeal. 

[01:00:07] Colin Cohen: It is a very close knitted community. And it's good for Hong Kong. I mean, a very, very good lawyer. And also at Temple Chambers. 

[01:00:16] Geoffrey Ma: He is a friend. That said, professionally, I often use him as an example. to tell young barristers and young advocates that he is probably the finest advocate I've seen in Hong Kong for various reasons.

[01:00:31] Colin Cohen: He's excellent as well. You did a bit of judging as a recorder and for our listeners, that is someone who's appointed as a sort of a recorder means you sit part of the year as a judge as well. Did you enjoy that? 

[01:00:42] Geoffrey Ma: Yes, very much so, because that was a test as to whether Judging would be your cup of tea and if you had any ambitions in the judiciary, that would be a good test for you, for yourself, as well as, of course, more importantly, others who decide whether you become a judge or not. That was a good year. 

[01:01:04] Colin Cohen: What was the event that took you into the judiciary when you got appointed at the court of first instance in 2001 after you became a high court 

[01:01:11] Geoffrey Ma: judge? What, what happened about that? What made you decide to take that step? Joining when I was 45 years old was earlier than I had anticipated.

But I had been asked, and I had been encouraged to think seriously about joining the bench. And that, I did think seriously about it. I was encouraged to think about this by the then Chief Justice. I had thought about it long and hard. And in the end, it made my mind up. The first was that I enjoyed my stint as a recorder and judging.

Secondly, If there was somebody, and there's nobody higher up in the judiciary than the Chief Justice, thought that you could do a reasonable job as a judge for the community, that was encouraging. And thirdly, at 45, I'd been in practice for 21, 22 years, and working out that, Oh, I would retire or work until I was 65 or so.

It represented half my working life. And I thought it's nice to be in a position where in a working lifetime, you could have two different jobs, albeit in the same field. So that swung it for me. And, of course, I needed the support of my family. 

[01:02:29] Colin Cohen: Well, and out of your family, I mean, our listeners will be very interested to know that your wife has just retired as a Court of Appeal judge.

And what does she think about you going into the judiciary? 

[01:02:40] Geoffrey Ma: Well I would not have done it, if she had not encouraged me as well. She left it to my ultimate decision, but I would not have done it unless I had, in a way, her blessing on this. And she has been. Of course, over the years, a tower of strength to me in whatever I did, and certainly as a judge, and certainly as, later on, Chief Justice.

[01:03:01] Colin Cohen: Yes, now, what is interesting, you went to the Court of First Instance 2001, Justice of Appeal in 2002, and Chief Judge of the High Court in 2003. That's very, very quickly promotion. It's like one of the football teams going out from the third division. Second, incident of second championship premiership.

That, that's really quick. You must have won a lot of games, I would say. 

[01:03:29] Geoffrey Ma: Well, it's good to think that you did something right. Better to think that others Thought that you could be given further responsibilities. All this, of course, is doing this for the community and in the public interest. And there's something that you can do towards that end and people have faith in you belief in you in fulfilling those roles, then I'm lucky. But yes, it was fairly quick. There was a bit of a gap though, after I became chief judge. I had to wait a bit... 

[01:04:02] Colin Cohen: Wait a little bit before you hit, till you won a championship. Sort of, you put it into the football, the football sort of ideology.

As chief judge I, I do recollect that you did spend a lot of time doing a lot of civil justice reform, in particular with ensuring that Hong Kong moved into proper justice reform, as well as attending many conferences and helping out and getting, trying to get the profession to be, how could I say, a little bit more professional and to sort of be more astute, astute to what civil litigation requires, as well as criminal litigation, because the Chief Judge was also looking after the criminal side as well.

Did you enjoy the administrative side of doing all of that? Because you, as Chief Judge, you are lots of making sure the wheels of justice work. 

[01:04:46] Geoffrey Ma: Well, that's right. I mean, the reason why I became a judge was that I enjoyed being a judge. The challenge of deciding difficult cases, being involved with difficult points of law.

That goes without saying that there's an enjoyable part. The administrative part, which is the non judicial work I Enjoy doing. I enjoyed doing not because it was inherently enjoyable, but you've got to convince yourself of two things. First that somebody's got to do it. And if it's you, and if you're in that position, you've simply got to get down and do it.

The second part is, well, if you've got to do it you might as well try to enjoy it as best you can. And of course, this is not just psyching yourself out or hypnotizing yourself. You look for ways of enjoying it. And actually, I found that I enjoyed it because I was dealing with good people. And when you're dealing with good people then what may seem to be boring or challenging or even really difficult then becomes less of a burden and it's for your own health by the way that you don't start feeling the pressure.

[01:05:58] Colin Cohen: One thing about being a judge, I mean sometimes a judge can be a bit lonely in that you are on your own and sometimes I hear, well I have some friends of mine who are judges, Nowadays, and recently, writing judgments, getting behind on your judgments, is very, very, very time consuming. And here in Hong Kong, as opposed, let's say, the U.

S. saves, there are certain associates who help out judges in doing research, etc. For our listeners, and the procedure in the U. S. is that the judges associates write the judgments, and the judges then look at it, Change it a little bit but not here. How did you deal with that? I mean, didn't you, didn't that worry you too much?

Or did you keep on top of all your judgments? 

[01:06:40] Geoffrey Ma: Oh, not at all because I certainly felt the pressure when I was a judge at first instance level in the Court of Appeal because I had many other things to do. It's easy to fall behind and you certainly feel the pressure. There have been occasions when I've sat on judgments myself.

Now, the silver lining part of that is that when later on I had administrative responsibilities as Chief Judge and Chief Justice, having gone through it myself, I could understand the pressures on the judge and you try to deal with it. Now, there is no easy solution to this. And sometimes you appear to be hard.

One hopes always sympathetic, but sometimes you've just got to deal with it. It is indeed a pressure, because when you've been sitting on a judgment for a long time, for months, sometimes even a year, or over a year, the pressure does in fact build up. And the responsibility of the Chief Judge or the Chief Justice is to make sure that it doesn't depress the judge.

A judge to the point of making that person really unhappy because after all you are dealing with humans and human emotions and human beings and you've got to take that into account. It's not a machine. You're not dealing with a machine where you just decide to, all right, let's put it into. Third gear instead of second gear that sort of thing.

[01:08:09] Colin Cohen: Yes, I mean, that's very, very important. And I think it goes throughout the whole legal profession. I mean, today the cat, the buzzword is mental health. People have to be aware as to stress. I mean, it's quite interesting right now for some young solicitors in London for working for a top firm who are paid fortunes.

I mean, really big, big money, but a number of other things. You have to work and then you're arranging at taxis at three in the morning to take you home. Then you're up again, be there for the commercial, working for these top American law firms. That can burn you out very, very quickly. And that can be obviously burn out here with hard work.

It does have an impact upon people. 

[01:08:48] Geoffrey Ma: That is right. And I think person management, staff morale is very important and understanding, most importantly, the limits of each member of your team and trying your best to alleviate any worries or pressure. It's not easy. 

The old attitude, years ago of, oh, come on, man up, that sort of thing is the wrong attitude.

[01:09:13] Colin Cohen: It, it really is. Now, in 2010, you did become the Chief Justice of the Court of Final Appeal. All that is at the very most top. job you can get here. How did that come about? Was that just sort of your turn next? 

[01:09:26] Geoffrey Ma: No, no, not at all. Because in 2010, my predecessor, Andrew Lee, who had then been Chief Justice for 13 years, but still nowhere near retirement age, got me into his room and told me of his intentions, asked me whether I was interested in the job.

said encouraging things to the effect that many people think that you are right for the job. Again, please think about it. So it was a well thought out decision on his part. I mean, if you know Andrew Lee at all, he does not do things by accident. He does not make any form of half serious, much less serious decisions without having thought it through time and time again and worrying about it.

So if he had devoted that much time to. Thinking about it and talking to me about it, that merited serious thought. It's of course a surprise when somebody says, would you like to be considered for this? Because once you get over the slightly flattering bit, then comes the reality, which he was all too ready to let you know that, look, many people think it's a dream job or whatever, but it is a job of the utmost responsibility.

[01:10:39] Colin Cohen: And You became Chief Justice, 2010. Now looking back, what was the most difficult? I mean, there were obviously huge changes in Hong Kong and all countries change, all special administrative regions will change. Was there anything that, looking back on the matters, that you really felt, that was tough times?

[01:10:58] Geoffrey Ma: Well, without sort of giving any specific incidents. 

[01:11:01] Colin Cohen: No specific incidents, just generality. 

[01:11:03] Geoffrey Ma: The part I found difficult, to deal with right to the end was the increasing influence of politics in the, in the law. What I mean by that is that in a public debate or in a public commentary, commentary could be by newspapers and so on in discussing, In discussing serious legal questions, and in discussing a serious topic such as the rule of law, inevitably for a lot of commentators, and especially for a lot of politicians, politics comes into it.

And it's not their fault, because politicians deal with politics, but politics does not come into the law. The operation of the law is not the law. The administration of justice certainly does not depend on politics, but nor is it affected by it. Because the nature of politics against speaking generally, the nature of politics is that it drives you to a biased point of view.

One way or the other, and in between, there's a spectrum. As far as the law is concerned, you are not driven politically to one end of the spectrum or the other or anything in between. Your obedience and fidelity is to the law itself and this is what a lot of people find difficult to accept and that posed for me a consistent challenge to try to let people know that the law does not involve politics and it's quite a difficult battle, which continues I think. 

[01:12:40] Colin Cohen: It's still continuing all the time, but I think there's one thing which I will say for our listeners that I have cases have gone into the court of final appeal and sitting in the court of final appeal from the solicitors bench. I've always felt that when you're having a single non permanent judge, it is one of the finest courts that was able to help Hong Kong develop the rule of law.

In fact, you always got a very good hearing, and you always had judgments that came out pretty quickly in a four week, five week period, and you win some, you lose some, as always. But in the end of the day, the rule of law, was absolutely highlighted by the way in which the Court of Final Appeal would deal with matters, and that enhanced Hong Kong's position as a leading place forum for dispute resolution.

That was from my perspective as a solicitor, just watching the way in which the Court dealt with judgments, and in particular, the overseas judges who were there. And it always was a very, very good Court. And it's also interesting that the Court of Final Appeal judgments are referred to in Australia, the USA, UK.

In many, many cases, they are referring to much of the jurisprudence which has developed in Hong Kong as well. So that takes me into my next question. What do you think was your most satisfaction during your time, during your tenure as Chief Justice in the Court of Final Appeal? 

[01:14:03] Geoffrey Ma: Well, my ambition, was to have Hong Kong fulfill the constitutional requirement on the courts.

The constitutional requirement is the legal system which we have in Hong Kong. It is prescribed to be a common law system. This is not a political concept. This is actually a legal concept, and it is required in our constitutional instrument, which is the basic law. My intention, my hope was that Hong Kong would be seen as a good working common law jurisdiction.

And what demonstrated that, you mentioned the non permanent judges of the Court of Final Appeal, the existence of such judges, quite apart from other benefits which they brought, such as their expertise, all of them are actually almost legends within the common law, quite apart from those sort of judges.

Almost fringe benefits. The most important aspect for me is that they demonstrated that wherever they came from, whether it be the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, or New Zealand, that Hong Kong fitted in everybody's idea of a working and good Common law jurisdiction. And that, for me, was my intention. To consolidate that as best I can.

This is not about a reputation. This is not bragging to people, Oh, we're pretty good, aren't we? No, it's actually demonstrating to the people in Hong Kong and the people outside Hong Kong that we have a good system of justice, if you like, working in Hong Kong. And, and that, if you ask me what I was proud of, well, I'm proud to have played my part in trying to consolidate that.

[01:15:58] Colin Cohen: I think that's very, very, very important. And what's also, I think, very important is that the Hong Kong public, I think, through, through your position on the Court of Final Appeal, they are beginning more to understand what the rule of law is all about, which is very, very, very important. And I, I've also seen recently that in the end of the day, It's the rule of law and the common law that comes out as the golden thread, as Rumpel of the Baby would say.

It remains there and I think that really has generated a lot of great support for Hong Kong. 

[01:16:33] Geoffrey Ma: That's right. I see Hong Kong, the judiciary and the legal system, as being one which is known to be If you happen to be in the position of having to go to court, you are guaranteed a fair hearing, a fair trial, in front of an independent judiciary.

And this is demonstrably so when you can see what goes on in the courts, when you can read for yourself the reasons which are contained in judgments, and the sort of general confidence in Hong Kong, not just worldwide, but perhaps more importantly for the people whom the judiciary serves, and that is the people of Hong Kong.

[01:17:15] Colin Cohen: Yes, and I agree entirely with those sentiments. In fact, it's fair to serve the community. We as lawyers are meant to be doing that as well. What's your view of interesting matters? One case which I did deal with before the Court of Final Appeal was regarding public interest pro bono and full access to the courts in respect of matters as well.

I mean, there's always been a sort of difficulty whereby Are people able to get before the courts in Hong Kong with a strong legal aid system? And if you haven't got a legal aid system, public interest cases are able to be defended and to ensure that you get the best possible representation before you as well?

[01:17:56] Geoffrey Ma: Yes, yes. Of course, everything could be improved because legal aid, we all know, What the purpose is and it serves its purpose, but a lot of people can't get legal aid, but who also need assistance. There are many sort of pro bono services, many lawyers who give up their time, give up their time, meaning also giving up money to help people.

Act pro bono for people and that is wonderful. When you get to court on an important case, the court does on occasion appoint people called amicus curiae who would assist the court and you get this particularly in the higher courts. But there are still gaps to be filled but no system is perfect here.

[01:18:42] Colin Cohen: You're right, but at the moment now, yesterday we had the annual Pro Bono Law Society Legal Awards and a number of people who are offering themselves for community service, access, and there's lots of clinics coming out in universities as well to help people to get access to justice, because that is a fundamental point of the rule of law.

You, what made you decide? Retire from the court. You felt you had done your innings, coming to the end of the innings, you're doing well. Hong Kong's obviously going through difficult times as well. I mean, what, what, what did you decide that, that you felt that it was right to retire from it? Well, was it your own decision?

[01:19:19] Geoffrey Ma: There's quite a number of factors there. One of the things which Andrew Lee taught me was the importance of looking beyond your own tenure. You don't hang on for as long as possible. However good a job you think you're doing, you are not indispensable. And there is always somebody promising, somebody good who can take over.

So almost from, well not quite from day one, but certainly as the years went by certainly halfway through, My term, I would be thinking about who would likely be a good successor. You then take a look at the possible candidates, then a focus on one or two, and then of course it's not the decision of the Chief Justice to name a successor, but the view of the incumbent.

Chief Justice is important in identifying somebody to succeed. And if that person or persons were to be given a good shot at the job, you can't hang on forever and leave that person with a few years. So that's one factor which goes into that decision to retire when I was 65. The other reason is that having advocated and obtained a change in the law, um, for judges to retire, not at 65, but 70, I thought as far as I was concerned, I did not want anybody to talk about me having obtained that for my own personal benefit.

So that, a lot of people say nobody would think that. The thing is, I just did not want any talk along those lines. So, there are a number of reasons, and also I've given the judiciary 20 years. And I thought, well, time to do something else. 

[01:21:12] Colin Cohen: And leads me to the next point. You retired. I know your love for Manchester United.

Does that mean you can go back and watch more games at Manchester or what? And I know you're president of the Cricket Association. So I remember, we came back to football and I brought over the Hong Kong Football Club, we had a tournament once a year. And I'm Martin Atkinson, the Premier Referee, and you're very generous and gracious to allow him to invite him into your chambers.

And he was amazed with all the football paraphernalia in your chambers as well, in particular, tickets for the World Cup, which you then allowed us to auction, so we raised quite a lot of money for charity for that. Tell us a little bit about that, about your love for football. 

[01:21:51] Geoffrey Ma: Well, I first went to England in the mid sixties, and I was in Manchester.

And in Manchester, there were only If you're keen on football, there are only two teams you support. If you're in, then the First Division, now the Premiership. Manchester City or Manchester United. I chose Manchester United because my father said you should go for United and not City. So I've been a Manchester United fan since the mid 60s.

Through thick and thin. I mean, it's through the years, I suppose, more thick than thin. It's a bit thin now. 

[01:22:22] Colin Cohen: I know how you feel with my team, Chelsea. 

[01:22:24] Geoffrey Ma: Which 

[01:22:24] Colin Cohen: I know how you feel. 

[01:22:26] Geoffrey Ma: But you have this buzz every time a match is coming up a buzz full of hope nowadays, more often dashed than not, it's just something good to be keen on, football. Whatever happens.

[01:22:39] Colin Cohen: I hear a rumor that at one stage, your wife, she put on an Arsenal shirt at a party. Is that correct? Well, she did. She did? 

[01:22:47] Geoffrey Ma: I didn't. I mean, I...

[01:22:50] Colin Cohen: she did, to upset you? 

[01:22:52] Geoffrey Ma: Well, it didn't upset me. I mean, I've been to a number of matches between Arsenal and Manchester United.

The most memorable one was the first. When Arsenal still played at Highbury, I was among the Arsenal fans behind the goal. And they were very decent. They were asking about how Hong Kong was, how Hong Kong was coping with this, that and the other. And then they asked me, they said, you don't support Man U, do you?

And I said, of course not. And, yes, it's nice being in a football ground. 

[01:23:20] Colin Cohen: And your cricket, I mean, to our listeners, we always, many years ago, we, I managed to get a group of lawyers together where we had the judiciary versus, What is going to be solicited as embarrassment, and some friends, that's gone by the way now.

It's still there as a match, but it's not, we, we, we lost. But those were great days where we were having a game of cricket. You're still interested in cricket? 

[01:23:42] Geoffrey Ma: Well, very much so. I mean, I got interested in Cricket again, when I first went to England, I just liked the game. And, of course, you've got to support a team.

In the same way I supported Manchester United in the summer, I just hopped across the road and supported Lancashire, because they were literally across the road from Old Trafford. I've kept up. I still watch a lot of cricket. I'm glad to be the Honorary President of Cricket Hong Kong, which has two sides to it.

One is the running of cricket, I mean, it's part of the ICC. The other part, which is also important, is that it spends time working for a lot of the ethnic minorities in Hong Kong, for whom cricket is a good diversion, and they're keen on it. And it galvanizes them. among their own community, but also integrates them into the Hong Kong community in general, and that's, I'm very glad to see.

And also, of course, you'd be surprised, Colin, to know that cricket is picking up big time in Hong Kong, especially among women, girls. 

[01:24:49] Colin Cohen: Absolutely, no, I know that. They're really doing very, very well in the 2020 there, and my firm have supported. We use this, we sponsor, we support it. We were a, we support the Dragons team.

Cricket and the women's cricket. So, yeah, I mean, it is very good. I'm very, very keen on supporting cricket as well. Now, Are you going to write a book, a memoir? Have you ever thought about that? 

[01:25:09] Geoffrey Ma: A lot of people mention this, but there is nothing too much interesting. I mean, if you picked up anybody from the street, that person will have some interesting things to say about their life.

I don't think that my life is that interesting to merit a book. It's nice to be in a podcast like this to talk a little about life. But writing a book, I think, would be a little vain. 

[01:25:34] Colin Cohen: Well, maybe, maybe not. I mean, Clive Grossman wrote a very nice, very short memoir of certain incidences during his time as well.

Hong Kong. It's gone through some fairly difficult times. Hong Kong is known for being resilient. I've been here 40, 44 years, coming on 45 years. This is my home. It's a place which I've been going to when I do retire, which may be shortly soon, who knows. Your home, you view Hong Kong now. How do you see Hong Kong in the next few years going?

[01:26:02] Geoffrey Ma: Well, I am optimistic about Hong Kong. I am often asked about 2047, usually in a legal context. The question asked of me is, do I think that the present legal system The common law system will continue beyond 1997, and I always give an unequivocal yes to that, that it will continue. And the reason why I say that is not just the sort of voices of support you hear from the powers that be, whether in Hong Kong or more importantly in a way, from Beijing, but also from the people Back to fundamentals, back to basics, which is the system as we know it, the common law system has consistently over the years delivered to the community what was required of it.

It is a delivered a system of justice and fairness the enforcement of, of rights. And this will continue, but enforcement by an independent judiciary. And I'm confident because now, as before when I was still in the judiciary, I look to see the makeup of the judges, which we have, and all of them, certainly most of them, abide by their oath.

And that's the important thing, to abide by what is required of them in the judicial oath and, by the way, what is required of them under the basic law. And that gives me confidence. 

[01:27:33] Colin Cohen: It also gives me a great deal of confidence as well. Jeff, it's been a privilege and honor talking to you. I wish you all well, and especially Maria, in your happy retirement.

Actually, retirement is the wrong word. I think you're busier than ever. All the things you're doing as well. So thank you so much for joining us on Law & More. 

[01:27:51] Geoffrey Ma: Absolute pleasure. Thank you, Colin.