Episode 50 - José Maurellet SC

In this episode, we are joined by José-Antonio Maurellet SC, the newly elected chairman of the Hong Kong Bar Association. In a wide-ranging discussion, José looks back on his student days at Oxford, early work as a barrister and the development of his practice in company and commercial law. He also talks about the work of the Bar Association and its important role in Hong Kong’s legal landscape. José speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

00:49 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:57 Early Life and Education
03:02 University Experience and Career Beginnings
05:09 Pupillage and Early Legal Career
10:20 Specialization in Company Law and Arbitration
12:58 Becoming a Senior Counsel
15:00 Role and Responsibilities as Chairman of the Bar Association
17:49 Encouraging New Barristers and Legal Aid
20:02 International Relations and Overseas Judges
32:44 Personal Life and Hobbies
33:53 Conclusion and Final Thoughts 

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter   

Transcript

Colin: [00:00:49] Hello, everyone. And welcome to Law & More. For this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by José Antonio Maurellet . As well as being an eminent senior counsel with DeVoe Chambers, where he specializes in company and commercial law, he's also a mediator, arbitrator, recorder of the court of first instance, i.e. a deputy high court judge.

He has recently been thrust firmly into the public spotlight with his election as chairman of the Hong Kong Bar Association. I'm sure we'll discuss that in detail. José, thank you so much for joining us. And as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?

Josè: Thank you, Colin, for having me on your show. We've basically just passed the Chinese New Year period, which is normally relatively calm. You can see from the court list is relatively short, because some people are not back yet. But as you've mentioned earlier, I was elected Chairman of the Bar about two weeks ago.

So the number of my emails [00:01:49] has exploded about four times. So just try to keep up with the emails. And this is supposed to be a quiet period. So I treat this as a learning curve.

Colin: Excellent. Now, let's go a little bit back in time. Tell us about your early background, your education, and what took you into the law. What happened.

Josè: I was born in Hong Kong in the late 70s. I attended the French school here in the French system, the French Lycée.

Colin: Like my grandson. Perfect. Excellent

Josè: Good choice. So I started there and I did all my schooling in Hong Kong up until 1995. So I basically studied a couple of languages. We didn't have too many of what is called extracurricular activities, which seem to fill up kids diaries these days.

So we had two afternoons off, at least for three or four years, which tended to be on Tuesday, and Thursday, sometime Wednesday, and Fridays, and so in those afternoons you basically could do as you liked. And I seem to remember mainly [00:02:49] watching television. I tried fencing, but I was very bad at it. I did taekwondo, but never moved beyond yellow belt.

And as the younger kids increasingly got better belts than I had, it was too embarrassing, so I had to stop. 

Colin: That's interesting. So, where did you go to university? 

Josè: So by the time I was a teenager, I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. I wasn't very good at sciences. And so my interest at the time was mainly probably history. That's the thing I liked the most. I read a lot of history books, I thought about studying for either history or economics at University. Economics I ruled out because at university level, the maths requirement is pretty high. And that I wasn't very good at, so I had to put a cross on that. History, I thought, was quite interesting, but there was no sort of obvious next step, apart from perhaps teaching, which at the time didn't really appeal to me.

So law seemed like one obvious choice. So I thought about studying law, and basically boiled down to either doing it in Hong Kong which of course is a very good university or doing it abroad. And I'd never lived abroad, studied abroad, [00:03:49] so I thought going abroad for a couple of years might be a good idea.

Colin: So you went to...

Josè: I went to not your university, which is the best university in the United Kingdom, but arguably...

Colin: You went to the car factory

Josè: I went to the car factory.

Colin: For our listeners. I mean, a bit naughty here. There's always a little thing between Oxford and Cambridge. So you went off and did your law degree at Oxford.

Josè: That's right, I was at St. Edmund Hall, and we had two very good tutors at the time. We had Professor Derek Wyatt. QC, who was basically constitutional and European law specialist and we have, of course, Professor Adrian Briggs QC now, who is a leader in the field of conflict of laws. So it was, it was a really good time.

Colin: You enjoy Oxford?

Josè: I enjoyed it very much. I mean, it was quite hard at the beginning because I'd never lived outside Hong Kong. I'd always lived with my family and I found it quite difficult actually. I was a bit homesick. But after about six months to a year, I got used to it and it's a typical thing by the time you really enjoy it, it's time to come home.

Colin: And any particular subjects you were, you know, sort of, you know, which you enjoyed the law? 

Josè: That's a good [00:04:49] question. So probably the subject I thought most interesting was constitutional and administrative law. And that was a topic actually did best at finals. The topic I did worst at actually, probably the only topic I did quite badly at was company law. And of course, typical sod's law. I've almost had zero public and administrative law practice and company laws, what I mainly do now, so.

Colin: So Oxford, you then decide not to get admitted to do your pupillage, et cetera, in England, but you came back to Hong Kong to do the PCLL.

Josè: That's correct. So I came back in 1999 to do the PCLL in Hong Kong. And in fact, at the time, I'd never done mooting or debating, so the bar was not something I had really considered too seriously. Although I did a mini pupillage, I greatly enjoyed, in what was then known as Gilbert Rodway QC's chambers, now Gary Plowman SC Chambers.

And Gilbert then passed me on to Mr. Plowman and also Mr. Keith Young, who you know.

Colin: I know Keith very well and Gary.

Josè: That was my first, and that [00:05:49] was my first experience of I did a mini pupil at it and saw sort of criminal courts in action. That was 1997, just after July.

Colin: You did your PCLL, but you were determined not to come down the road as a solicitor, but to go to the Bar.

Josè: Well, there's a small twist, which is originally I'd actually signed a training contract because most of my friends had done so. I didn't really have any family member in the law, so it seemed a bit daunting, so I signed a training contract. I was quite happy, and then during my PCLL year, by about Christmas time, I thought, okay, I quite enjoy this advocacy unit.

And I was greatly encouraged by Professor Richard Wu, who was teaching at the PCLL, and he took me aside a couple of times and really spent three, four hours giving me the courage to give it a shot. So I remember that day where I effectively signed my resignation letter before I'd actually started working, which was a bit embarrassing.

And credit to that law firm, they were very kind, they wrote back to me and said, Look, we understand you want to do something else, we'll support you. I thought it was really kind and generous of them.

Colin: him. That's good. [00:06:49] And that's how it should be as well. So you defeated examiners. And of course I should disclose, I was one of your external examiners at that time.

So you, you did well, you passed your PCLL and you went into pupillage. Tell us about your pupillage.

Josè: So my criminal pupillage was with Danny Marash SC at Plowman Chambers. And then the rest of the nine months I did with civil practitioners in what is now my chambers. So first one was with Mr. Chua Guan Hock, now Chua Guan Hock SC, johnny Mok, SC and Mr. Peter Graham. And of the three, I'd first met Mr. Chua Hock, as I would call him at the University of Hong Kong with bar... 

and 

Colin: he was a guest on law and more. You do know that.

Josè: I know that and I've listened to it of course, and he was always, I think, very kind and supportive and encouraging from day one. So to this day, I'm very grateful to him. And of course he's a friend and a mentor.

Colin: And you went straight into DeVoe Chambers. So you did your pupillage and then you took a tenancy. Now for our listeners in the context, you do your pupillage, you [00:07:49] do a little bit, you have to cover all your subjects, and then you have to look for the right, what's called tenancy, whereby you're self employed and you worked within DeVoe Chambers at the early days, yes?

Josè: That's right. So I joined as a tenant would have been, I think, summer of 2001.

Colin: Now, tell us a little bit about what type of work you were doing when you were straight out of the course into the coal face. 

Josè: I think there's a transition, which I think all pupils find difficult, is when you're a pupil, you're always inundated with work because it's free. So anybody who comes to you and say, can you do this for me? It's free. So you find that like most things which cost nothing, demand outstrips supply. But as soon as you basically are in full practice, then suddenly people have more choices.

They think, well, if I'm going to pay for somebody, why should I come up to you? So there are two sources of work, really. The first is what we call deviling. So it's where a more senior barrister comes to you, and you effectively help them with their paperwork, or help them to do research, or pleading.

A lot of juniors do that in the early years. And then, of course, you get solicitors who try you out, usually because somebody who's a little bit older than [00:08:49] you recommends you. And, of course, luck, I guess, I had was I got to be instructed by you early in the day.

Colin: yeah, I remember that as well, because I mean, being in DeVoe Chambers, a very well respected set, I knew Johnny Mark, I knew lots of other people, and I always asked them who were the up and coming juniors, and of course, they said, oh, try José, and we said, oh, José is fluent in Cantonese, French, and obviously your English is perfect. You're the ideal candidate for me to try out some of my difficult cases. I remember I did instruct you on one or two quite difficult cases.

Josè: I remember those days and I think one of the fun parts of the Bars, although we're all self employed, although we're in the same chambers, everybody does their own thing. So we can do cases against each other, which is something which some people find difficult to understand in other jurisdictions, but there's really a good deal of camaraderie, especially amongst people who are two, three years, your senior. Or two, three years your junior. And there's a lot of mutual support. If you don't know something, you can knock on somebody's door when you start out, people try to pass you cases [00:09:49] and so on.

Colin: So you've got a good wide range of experience. Do you ever do a criminal case? Yes. 

Josè: I used to do the duty lawyer service. 

Colin: So you turned up the magistrate's court and got yourself, in areas of law, which you had to learn the hard way.

Josè: That's right and duty law is when you first start out, I didn't get any trials it was mainly what they call pleas and mitigations court. So it's court one, so either you ask for bail or mitigation. So in one morning, you might be doing six or seven mitigations.

Colin: Yeah, I mean, I did a lot of that earlier on, but then I was also doing a bit of trial work as well. So the area in which you've built up your substantial practice in is that you're sort of a bit of a doyenne of the commercial Bar with company law. Difficult BVI. You're submitted in the BVI.

How did that all come about that? Because you're really now very sort of niche specialty in that particular area.

Josè: Well, 20 odd years ago, it was a bit random. It was after the financial crisis of 98. There were a lot of company winding ups. And I think we all know that there are a number of large banking groups in Hong Kong, but there's one [00:10:49] large, shall we say British one.

And there was another one, which is an amalgamation of Chinese banks and they were using essentially two firm solicitors. So there was a short while where I was doing work for these two groups. It tended to be quite simple. You had the judgment debt, the company didn't pay or the individual didn't pay.

You asked for more time. So you started with this sort of work where the solicitors were really looking for somebody who was quite cheap. That was the main requirement, which I clearly ticked the box. But if you did four or five of those in one Monday, it wasn't bad. I remember in those days you could almost pay for maybe half your monthly expenses.

So, you start off with those, and then there starts to be some derivative work from those cases. For example, because a winding up petition had been filed, the banks would normally freeze the company's bank account unless you apply for permission. It's called a validation order. So, maybe after a year or two, they'd say, we'll give you a chance to do this.

It's a bit above your station, but we'll give you a chance. And then one thing led to another, and then eventually I got to do slightly more complex cases.

Colin: And you're also became heavily involved in arbitration work, but you can tell, the [00:11:49] difference about how does that come about luck or does it some area of it, you thought you'll become a you are not, not actually, I know you arbitrate, but you also are an advocate.

Josè: That's right. So arbitration, I think when I first started. About 2000, 2001 Hong Kong, most of it I would say was shipping construction. And those are not really things that I've experienced it. So I didn't do much arbitration the beginning. And then I think as with the development of the economy on the mainland, we start seeing more commercial disputes being handled Mainly in those days, Sino Foreign disputes usually had two parties.

They couldn't agree where to do it, so they wanted to do it in Hong Kong, and it was arbitration. And so, it's basically the same solicitors who instructed you to do court cases, who said, oh, I've got this thing called an arbitration, can you do it? And I said, sure. And then you started learning how to act as counsel in an arbitration, which is slightly different of course, from court proceedings.

It's less formal. It's not open to the public. And it's a bit more flexible, you're not bound by the rules of the high court and the white book and [00:12:49] things like that.

Colin: Yes, so you developed your work as an arbitrator and then you were doing more and more sophisticated work in the judicial area here.

You then became later on a Senior Council. Now tell us a little bit about that.

Josè: So I applied to be a Senior Counsel, which is basically the appellation we have now in Hong Kong, after 97, previously Queen's counsel, now King's counsel in 2016. So by that stage I'd been practicing for 15, 16 years. I'd done a couple of cases against Silks. And so, on occasions, as this often happens, and usually this is a threshold moment where people think about applying, is when you start losing cases because your solicitor tells you, I'd love to use you, but the other side has a silk, we need a silk.

And because you're too senior to continue being the baby junior to the silk, you basically completely get cut out from the case. So, you start thinking about it, and I decided to apply, and I was very lucky to have been appointed.

Colin: When you became a Silk, did you find there's a change in the type of [00:13:49] work? Do you find you were losing some work? Or did you find you were gaining more work? Or was it difficult to adapt at the early days as a Silk?

Josè: That's something which a lot of people give thought to. What I remember happened is in the first few months after I'd gotten Silk. The amount of work remained stable, but I had less court work than I had before, so I had a lot more court work immediately prior to taking Silk, and what sometimes happens, I guess, is when people think of a Silk, they don't think of you yet, but when they want a junior, they suddenly remember you've taken Silk, so you're sort of in this twilight, and I got an inquiry for a case, and I was told that I needed a lot of time and a lot of court availability, and so I thought that was something I can do at that point in time, and I was against a lot of senior Silk, in that particular case, which generated a lot of court activity.

And I get that really helped me in developing the practice, I guess. 

Colin: Now let, let's turn a little bit to the Bar Association. You've now just become elected the chairman. Let's go back in time. What prompted you to get involved in the Bar Association? Because you've been on the Bar [00:14:49] Council for many, many years.

Josè: I was first, I think, on the Bar Council. in 2002. I was amongst the baby juniors. It was a couple of us Don O'Leo, Janine Cheung. And I think it was during the time, the second year, when Edward Chan, SC, I was running for second year's chairman, and the three of us, or one of us, it wasn't me, but I can't remember who it was, said, why don't we go and talk to the chairman and see whether he'd be happy for us to be a bit like the input a little bit from the young bar.

So we together went to see him, and he was kind enough to give us his time, and he agreed to, I think we were co opted at the time? So that's how my involvement with the bar council's work started.

Colin: And then you've remained on the Bar Council for an extensive period of time.

Josè: Yeah, so I did two years, 2002, 2003, and then I came back, I think 2009 or so when Russell Coleman, S. C., as Miss Justice Coleman now is in his second year, and then I stayed on with Kumar Aminathan, S. C., and then there was a little break, and then I rejoined when Paul Lamb, S. C., ran for chairman.

So I've [00:15:49] done it more than ten years, on and off.

Colin: For our listeners. You've now become the chairman of the Bar Association. And we had Victor Dawes who was the previous chairman. So your job is to look after the interests of all the Barristers. 

Josè: That's right, I mean the Bar plays really two or three roles. So the first is, of course, we are a self regulated, independent legal profession, just like the Law Society is in Hong Kong. So we issue practicing certificates. We also deal with disciplinary, just like the Law Society. And that's something which works very well.

I think our members believe in it, and I think the public also thinks that this is a good model for Hong Kong. The second part is, of course, we do things like a practice promotion for our members. It's more sort of trade union like, if you like. We look after the interest of members, as you put it.

And then the third, I think, is the societal role that we have, in the same way as the Law Society, which is, we're here to speak out for the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary in Hong Kong, and also to explain to members of [00:16:49] public important issues concerning the rule of law. Both here at home, but also abroad.

Colin: I mean, what is interesting is if I went recently to Hong Kong University in my position as an external examiner, I'm also an honorary lecturer, and I gave a lecture on the pitfalls of litigation. And at the very end of the lecture, I asked people to put up their hands how many of the room, we had about a hundred plus in the room or more than that, how many of you are going to become solicitors and how many of you are going to become barristers?

And there weren't very many hands put up to go to the bar and a number of people who are taking pupillage every year trying to getting into the bar because it's difficult. You've got to find your pupillage and then the future as well. I mean, how do you encourage more people to go to the Bar?

Josè: So the numbers coming to the bar, I mean it varies from year to year, but it's reasonably stable, so those who get called for memory would be something like 75 to about 100 a year, depending on the year. 

Colin: Yeah, compared to [00:17:49] about, let's say, 300 to 400. For the solicitors. 

Josè: That's right, and of course within five years I think something like 40 percent would have dropped off in the sense that they would do other things, which is consistent with other jurisdictions, because some people find out it's not for them, or their personal circumstances change, or they decide to do other things.

But after about five years, the drop off rate starts to drop very significantly, because those who've survived the five years basically survive.

Colin: How are you going to encourage more people to take up a pupillation? And I do know now that there is a system whereby you get paid, not very well, but you get some money as the chambers will pay you as a pupil. Put it into context, you have to be a pupil for 12 months as opposed to two years for a solicitor.

In that 12 months, you should have two or three pupillages. We do one criminal, then commercial, then one other family or one other. How are you encouraging people to come to the Bar?

Josè: So we have a number of funds available. One of which, of course, is the Bar [00:18:49] Scholarship Fund. The Bar Scholarship Committee usually in a year will recommend, say, three to five as an average number of scholarships to be given. So those would basically be new entrants at the Bar.

So they're given a reasonably substantial award. It's 200,000 Hong Kong dollars. So that helps you. It also gives you some recognition. So it helps you when you're applying for tenancy and so forth. The other thing, of course, is also that I think there's interest amongst the law students who are interested in just doing basically court work, because it's ultimately what barristers do, court work, arbitration work, and you're self employed.

So in fact, interestingly enough, we have quite a high number in recent years, which we've not seen before, of Singaporean law students applying to come and become barristers in Hong Kong, because we don't have a few professions they have in Singapore, and they want to be self employed advocates, so we've had a bit of an inflow of Singaporeans.

Colin: I think it's a very, very good thing. Now Victor Dawes spent three years as chairman and what one of what he had to do was to [00:19:49] repair relationships with Beijing. I mean, it, it is known to do that as well, and he's done probably an excellent job in dealing with that. Now you are becoming chairman as to your maintaining such relationships with China. How are you going to go about, to ensure you cultivate those ties and to make sure there is enhancing for your relationships and getting legal talent may be coming in from China to Hong Kong.

Josè: I mean, Victor has worked very hard and he was a very effective and successful Chairman. The Bar historically actually has always maintained very good relationship with all sort of stakeholders, whether at home here in Hong Kong or abroad, abroad meaning other common law jurisdictions and also of course in mainland China.

So for example, from the mid nineties we had this sort of Beijing visit, which one sometimes reads about in the press, this actually started. before at 1997. So the chairman, the Bar council, and also some of our members would go out [00:20:49] to Beijing and we would meet a number of stakeholders including the Hong Kong Macau office or the Ministry of Law and so forth.

So this is something which actually has pretty, pretty long history. The other thing we've done which we continue and we've grown is actually common law courses. So we had a course with a Peking University, as you know. And now we've grown this to more universities, and also with law associations.

So we go and teach the common law. We do common law courses in mainland cities. So some of our members, literally, would go on a Friday night, teach on Saturday morning have a lot of interaction with the students. And they're fascinated because Hong Kong, of course, is the only common law jurisdiction within the country.

And a lot of them have watched television. One of which you might have heard of called The Files of Justice. It's a 1990s Hong Kong court sitcom. And they're fascinating to see people in wigs and gowns. And so this is their idea of law in Hong Kong. And there's actually a lot of interest about law in Hong Kong.

Colin: And also, I think our listeners will be very interested. Last [00:21:49] year the Secretary of Justice Paul Lam arranged a trip in which a series of very eminent law firms, I mean, the big, large law firms about, there were about Eight or nine and even I was invited. I don't compete those big law firms and we had a lot of barristers and you yourself went on that delegation to Guangzhou and Shenzhen where we met the governor in Guangzhou. We met many law firms, many solicitors. We visited judges. We then went to Shenzhen, which was a very useful and productive. We were all there and we were talking and we were having cross border cross table discussions and they were really interested in ensuring that Hong Kong does remain a legal hub.

And I thought that was a very, very good trip, especially now that you went along as your deputy chairman. I think the chairman and the chairman of the bar was up in Beijing doing another visit, but it really strengthened the ideas whereby we're trying to enhance the strength of Hong Kong, the differences, the uniqueness , of our special military region.

Josè: The distinct advantage of Hong [00:22:49] Kong lies to large extent with the common law system, a system which of course is well known and trusted by many people around the world. So a lot of our trading partners people who invest in Hong Kong are familiar with and trust the common law system and trust the Hong Kong courts and the legal professions I think plays a role in that, very important role.

Colin: Yeah. And the common law as well. It's very, very important. Now, there's one other area which you have spoken about is in the court of final appeal. We have the overseas judges. There's been some discussion about that individuals and appointment of your views on ensuring that we encourage the overseas judges to get appointed.

Josè: I think the legal professions and the public in Hong Kong. By far and in large, support the continuance of the system of overseas non permanent judges. I mean, it's within the basic law. It's worked very well since 1997. And I think everyone recognizes the significant contribution made by those very senior and eminent judges to our [00:23:49] jurisprudence here.

So as is well known, that the number of overseas non permanent judges is now lower than it was at its peak. So I think we're slightly more than 10, possibly 14, 15 at one stage, we're now down to 6. So operationally I think it can still work, but obviously for the system to continue, we will need to get new blood as it were, but we're quite optimistic that that will happen. Because we think that the work and the quality of the jurisprudence of the court final appeal is well known and recognized and notwithstanding some of the issues which we're currently going through.

We're optimistic that the court should be able to find suitable candidate, which will enrich our jurisprudence here in Hong Kong. 

Colin: It's good to hear that and I wholeheartedly agree with that now on another area, which I think is quite important. And again, I've spoken to other guests on more and more regarding the admission of overseas Council. The King's Council, mainly from England, but also it has been [00:24:49] admissions from Australia as well. You've sat on various committees. Now the bar has to consent to these applications.

 Business is normal? 

Josè: We had a few years where the COVID restrictions. So obviously it wasn't particularly easy to find people who were willing to go through what was a pretty harsh quarantine period at the time. But the numbers have gone up now, and as the criterion for admission of Overseas Council in Hong Kong is actually based on the public interest.

So it's not as if we're a trade union, we say no to nobody. In fact, I think some of the members might be surprised, perhaps not entirely happy, but of the 19 applications that the Bar Council had to look at last year, we consented to 19.

Colin: Yes. And the 

Josè: 100%. Yeah. 

Colin: But the reason because of that is that the hoops you have to go through and you have to get a junior certificate as a good, decent solicitor will not really waste too much of the client's time trying to get a [00:25:49] council admitted unless the criteria of public interest the case warrants it, difficulties and to strengthen and to add value to the Hong Kong system.

Or I mean competition law was a good example. It's an area with not too many people know about that, but in an area which I do complex commercial crime, there are cases which are very complicated and in the end of the day, yes, be admitted. But you have to make sure you have a senior council and the junior council there.

So I think it's very, very important that to enhance Hong Kong's unique position, the ability to bring in the senior council A to assist Hong Kong, the Bar, but at the other time to show, look, we are an international city where we were not a closed court system whereby we allow them in.

Josè: Yes, I mean, we see the ad hoc admission system as part of the the common law system here. It promotes, as you say openness, competition, transparency, and also it builds some precious links I think between Hong Kong as a fully fledged member of the common law system. So [00:26:49] the more people we have who come out here, and of course they don't need ad hoc admission for arbitrations and on any given day, if you walk around.

Colin: But they do need immigration. 

Josè: Yes. 

Colin: Immigration will still go through the hoops a little bit.

Josè: That's right. But I think for arbitration, what we've noted certainly is if you walk around Exchange Square where the HKIC's offices are, there are quite a lot of overseas counsel at any one time. So these things I think is good because it obviously brings more competition, which is healthy. And also I think, as I was saying earlier, it really strengthens the links between Hong Kong and lawyers and the illegal legal system from other common law jurisdictions.

Because the more exchanges we have, I think the stronger we are and the better understanding of those lawyers. Because what a lot of, I think, us here experience working with overseas lawyers after they come here and we meet up at the end of their hearing, whether it's arbitration or court. And we hear their views, and very often they're not quite the same views that they had simply reading newspapers.

So I think it's good to really be on the ground and see [00:27:49] it for yourself.

Colin: Yeah, I think that's important to do that. Now, chairing the Bar Association is a high profile role that invites media scrutiny. Are you ready for that? And especially, the press are going to call you what's going on about that particular case in a court in West Kowloon, which is well known, where they're talking about it.

And these sort of perceptions from overseas maybe get the wrong end of the stick, or they put it out of context. You can enjoy doing that. Are you a little nervous about that?

Josè: I think I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit nervous about it. I mean, I've, I've been vice chair for six years, I've worked for Under three different chairman and obviously being vice chair, you support your chairman as best you can, but you don't have to deal, as you say, with the press and so on, and being barristers, self employed lawyers, our life is relatively simple in the sense that you work with solicitors, clients, you go to court, you don't have to deal with issues which go beyond those, so I think that that's certainly a challenge for me as I'm sure it was for my predecessors, so [00:28:49] I will draw on their experience, and on their wise counsel. 

Colin: And there's one issue which I think, it is important is access to the legal system, both for the solicitors to get a solicitor, get a barrister and the legal aid system is good, but many people fall below that net. The bar offers, the bar system.

They do take on meritorious cases. How are you going to encourage your members to do pro bono work and your views on that? 

Josè: So Legal representation is very important because it's one thing to say you've got a judge who's independent and impartial, but who's going to represent you? So the first thing of course we have at the Bars, is the, the cab rank rule. So, it's a professional obligation that if a client comes to you and is willing to pay your usual fee, And it's within your expertise and you're free to do it.

You have a professional obligation to take it up. So that's to ensure really that no matter how unpopular or popular the person may be, he will have access to a lawyer. The other thing of course is then to say, well that's all very good and well if you've got the money, but what you don't. So as you've rightly said earlier, we have a legal aid system in Hong Kong.

It's actually pretty good compared with a lot of [00:29:49] other jurisdictions.

Colin: It's better put it that way, but criminal needs of improving.

Josè: Yes, on the criminal side, I think that it probably requires some fine tuning or more than fine tuning. But on the whole, I think we compare ourselves with other jurisdictions. It's pretty decent. But of course, there are those people who sometimes in Hong Kong, I think they call them the sandwich classes, or I think in England they, they like to say the squeezed middle.

So you're sort of too rich for legal aid, but not rich enough to pay out of your own pocket. So the Bar used to run this thing called the Bar free legal scheme. Which we've run for many years and was quite successful, but it was mainly for appeals and mainly on crime. And because we ran our own admin, and we have a limited administration support, the number of people we could help, I think, although significant, was much less than what we will be able to do.

So we've started a pro bono committee last year, and its recommendation, which is now adopted by the council, was that we will be working with NGOs. So the NGOs who have the experience and the network. In other words, they have the people who need help, they have the [00:30:49] support, and we have basically the manpower.

We have a lot of barristers who are very keen to actually help people.

Colin: Well, that's really good news. 

Josè: I think most law students, actually, if you ask them when they're 19, why are you going to the law? I think 85 percent really think, I'm here to help the people. Of course, as time goes by, you have your own practice and so forth. Not that you don't want to do it, but you may not be able to find the right opportunity.

So what we're hoping is really to create the synergy whereby, we ensure that we can harness our members willingness to contribute to society with its need because there's a lot of unmet needs really, but there are a lot of really good NGOs in Hong Kong helping people also from all sorts of background and on different areas and we hope that we'll be able to really do more.

Colin: Yeah, that's interesting. Now, you've previously sat as a Deputy High Court Judge, and you were appointed as a recorder for a set period of time. Now you're chairman of the bar, your time spent doing bar work and all the other stuff. Will that give you time to continue to judge? Did you enjoy judging? Do you see a future, future High Court judgeship?

Josè: I've I've certainly enjoyed very much [00:31:49] sitting. So I've done that since I think 2018 for about a month every year. I'll try to do as much as I can in the coming year. But as you rightly point out the Chairmanship does take up a lot of time. But I think it's a very good chance not only just to contribute to society, but also really to put yourself in the position where you have to make decisions.

And I think to some extent, a lot of people have said it, it actually enhances your own abilities as an advocate, because you tend to see things from a slightly different perspective.

Colin: Yeah, that's interesting. I do hope you will sit as well, because I think, it's so important to have a strong, strong judiciary. And let's move on to a personal note. You're a father, family man. How do you relax? Football? You're a football fan? What do you do?

Josè: I enjoy a number of sports of which I'm absolutely frank. I'm not good at any of them, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying them. So I enjoy tennis, I swim a bit, I do a bit of skiing I do a little bit of running. So as I said, none of [00:32:49] them I'm particularly good at. The only thing I'm probably good at of those is reading because it doesn't require a very fit physique.

So I try to read history books and novels when I can.

Colin: And of course, your wife is a rock for you. I remember seeing you in your very early days on a holiday to Ritz Carlton where you were courting. We do go back a very, very long way.

And so, you must have enough time to at least be the family man.

Josè: Yes, I think it's important to try to be balanced and I think as in all things, I think you need a sense of perspective and I think that having friends, family, hobbies, I think helps. I think if you're just single handedly spending all your time in the office, in the office I think sometimes that that may not necessarily actually be the best thing even in terms of professional outcomes and judgment.

Colin: Finally, Hong Kong has gone through challenging times in recent years. We can't bury our heads in the sand, the Troubles National Security, all the noise, etc. Optimistic about the city's future. Your home is [00:33:49] here. Where are we going? How do you see it?

Josè: My home is definitely here. It's the only home I have. I think I'm reasonably optimistic about the future of Hong Kong. As you've said, we've faced a lot of challenges, but Hong Kong has faced a lot of challenges like most other cities. One has to at least economically reinvent oneself. So many cities where once upon a time they were doing trading, they then went into import export, they then went to services, art, or something else.

So I think Hong Kong and the people of Hong Kong are very resilient. We are an international city. We have people from all over the world who've basically made their homes. You're one of them and you've contributed to the success of Hong Kong, and I think that this is something which really keeps Hong Kong very special when you look all around the world.

People in Hong Kong always have family everywhere around the world, this is one thing that one finds. And I think that what we really need is to harness those international links to promote Hong Kong, so people can see Hong Kong for what it is.

Colin: That's great, and as chairman of the Bar, the [00:34:49] Bar is very, very important and your leadership is very, very important to promote the rule of law and to promote Hong Kong. On that note, it's been a pleasure chatting to you and thank you so much for joining us on Law and More.

Josè: Not at all, thank you, thank you Colin,