Episode 52 - James Irvine

In this episode, we are joined by James Irvine, director of commercial operations at Hong Kong’s enormous new sports and entertainment hub, Kai Tak Sports Park. James highlights the scale and variety of the incredible facilities, discusses the major events being planned, and explains why Kai Tak is such an important development for the city. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

00:45 Introduction and Guest Welcome 
02:12 Overview of Kai Tak Sports Park 
03:35 Accessibility and Transportation 
05:57 Government Vision and Development 
07:59 James' Background and Career 
10:12 Event Management and Operations 
15:52 Sports and Community Engagement 
22:35 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter     

Transcript

[00:00:45] Colin: Welcome everyone. My guest today is probably one of the busiest executives in Hong Kong, and certainly someone with a lot of responsibility on his broad Australian shoulders. Here is James Irvine, commercial director of our city sparkling new Kai Tak Sports Park. This is an incredible facility.

It's seen by many as a game changer for the Hong Kong Sport and Entertainment Sectors. It has recently made its debut by hosting the world famous Rugby Sevens, a series of rock concerts. James, thanks so much for taking time out from your schedule to join us, and as I always ask my guests what's been keeping you busy recently.

[00:01:28] James: Well, firstly, thanks for the opportunity to be here. This is exciting to sort of pause and reflect on what has been a wonderful blur over the last four or five years.

So, in a funny way, all the preparation that we've done as a consortium, has got us to the start line. If that makes sense. So this is a design, build and operate project, or a DBO and all the preparation construction wise and planning, staffing, all the rest lead us to the opening, which was the 1st of March, I think the grand opening.

And then since then it's been in event delivery mode. Which is really Rugby Sevens and then Coldplay and, Nicholas Tse and now we're gearing up for Mayday this weekend. So it's really just, gearing up for an event then bumping it out, then gearing up for the next one.

[00:02:08] Colin: Fantastic. Anyway, let's sort of help everyone out. Can you give us a little bit overview as to Kai Tak size and facilities, because it's just not a grand sports stadium.

[00:02:20] James: Yeah, no thanks. And I think that's probably a, an area that we need to continue to work on in terms of, educational promotion. I've still got friends of mine in the UK or in Australia and they'll say, how's your stadium going? I mean, this is one of, if not the largest integrated sport and entertainment infrastructure projects in the world. So it's actually 28 hectares and I had to Google it the other day, but a hectare is 10,000 square meters. So it gives you an idea of the scale of what we're doing. A lot of our operations folks are doing like a half marathon in steps. On an event night, just because there's a lot of room to cover.

But, but long story short, there's a 50,000 seat stadium with a fully retractable roof which allows us just to continue on, during the summer, even in the hot months. Then there's a 10,000 seat arena, which is good for sport and non-sport, and anything in between. And then a 5,000 seat youth sports ground.

It's called with a nine lane athletic track around natural turf. And then that sort of in and amongst 60,000 square meters of retail, which is about 250 tenencies, 15 meter climbing wall, a 40 lane bowling center. And then there's a space called the East Village, which is adjacent to the stadium, and that fits about 6,000 people for an independent event or an event that's linked to the stadium.

So all of it is linked together on one large site.

[00:03:35] Colin: Yes, and for some of our listeners on not only here in Hong Kong, but overseas, I think people have got to realize that where the stadium is located is closed, or it's even on the old Kai Tak runway and it's getting into that area is quite interesting because in the past, getting to the airport, there was never a rail station or a matter of the old Kai Tak, but what we have here are two stations.

Very close by, which gives you a great walk into matters. So a little bit about the ideas of getting into the stadium. Everyone sort of was a bit worried about it now, firsthand experience. Really easy. It was so easy to get in and get out and getting on the trains as well. So you won that battle.

[00:04:17] James: No, thank you for saying that. I mean, you tell people we've only got 600 car parks across the site and hong Kong folks and friends of mine will fall off the chair, but that's been done on purpose just because we want to encourage people to take the MTR, which is, ruthlessly efficient. And then also, buses and there's a lot of people that are actually walking to the site as well.

I mean, if you had a circle around the site in 30 minutes in any direction walk. So if you imagine, I guess that's a circumference. There's 1.4 million people. That live in that area. So that's about what, 20% of Hong Kong's population. So that that helps only from people feeling as though they're close to it.

But crucially it helps in terms of promoters thinking actually, it's not just a beautiful venue that's an hour down a highway outta town. I've got a bit of a captive audience here to be able to sell tickets and there's plenty of hotels around. It's gotta be user friendly for a promoter to say, hey, I'm gonna choose Hong Kong.

[00:05:09] Colin: I've been to many, many massive sporting events. I have a reputation to going to many World Cup finals, cricket as well. And when I first came out, when I saw the stadium all lit up and the minute come out, it's the most fabulous site.

I mean, it, it ranks there with the Wembley Stadium where you have the big arches and all the rest. So the designer of the stadium did an immaculate job in sort of at night. It looks absolutely spectacular, and it's the real heart of a beating sports arena as well. How I also know a lot of the sports associations have their offices there as well.

That's the idea to move it from the Causeway Bay up to Kai Tak as well. And you've got China light and power who've got an office block there. So the area's becoming a bit of a, new area. And that was in part of the planning idea, I suspect, 

[00:05:57] James: Not really. The government deserves a huge accolade for the vision that it had. If it had sold or leased this land, 28 hectares to property developers, people would regard that as sort of business as usual in Hong Kong, right? But they put this aside after deliberating it about it, and really I doubt that money would've been approved post covid or during covid. So we're very fortunate that it happened when it happened in addition to happening. But yeah, this is part of the government's plan to regenerate that part of Kowloon. 

And huge amount of residential towers have sprung up. It's also housing accommodations, so yeah, there's plenty of shopping arcades off the back of it. So right next to our side is China Light and Power. And also Dorsett as well. Five star just next door, which is good again for promoters and

[00:06:37] Colin: Dorsett again, for our listeners is a hotel.

[00:06:39] James: Yeah, that's right. It certainly acts as a stimulus for people to move there and work there.

[00:06:44] Colin: And again, sort of the Kai Tak sports complex, the reason for it was that we had, obviously in Causeway Bay, the old stadium, set up and it really proved not to be the best venue for rock concerts, 'cause complaints from the neighbors and et cetera, et cetera. And really the idea, the concept of sort of pushing something off to a new area, the proof is an eating of this fantastic pudding.

[00:07:09] James: But, some people are hesitant to change. Because they're used to the old stadium and they loved it and it was hugely sentimental. And people have been saying, I've been going to the old stadium for 20 years and loved it every time.

And that's all true and fair. But if we are serious, we say we Hong Kong are serious about, the three government aims really, which is sport for all, so make it easier for people to work out more often and be fitter and healthier, and there's a lot of financial and health benefits of that happening.

And then two is to provide the right environment for current and future elite athletes in Hong Kong and Hong Kong's done well in terms of Tokyo Olympics, Paris Olympics, and, and we wanna continue that in LA and Brisbane, beyond that. And then thirdly is to put Hong Kong on the map again, in terms of staging major events.

And, you hear this expression around the place, mega events, but it doesn't matter whether it's sport or entertainment. We wanna host it.

[00:07:57] Colin: Yeah. Now a little bit about yourself. I understand this is your second stint in Hong Kong. We know you are from Australia, so it gives a little bit background how you got into the sports industry and what brought you here and shed some light on your role and what your day-to-day role is in respect to this fantastic project.

You have to look after. Yeah. Let's go back in time. 

[00:08:17] James: I'll just lean back in my chair. Well, I went to London, a bit of a writer passage for Aussies to finish their degree and go and head over to London with a lot of other Aussies, being a cosmopolitan hub that it is. And then started working for IMG and then after a little while, moved across into Wembley Stadium, actually, 'cause IMG had a big contract there to sell to basically research, sell and manage all the premium seating there, which raised a lot of the funding for Wembley to be built.

As FA the football association was going to the market to try to raise money to build this beautiful thing. So, that was my introduction back in 2001. And then worked for IMG for another eight, nine years. And then moved to Hong Kong just mainly because it was closer to home and had some friends here, so it wasn't really much of a master plan.

And that was a year or so. And then an opportunity came up in Rugby World Cup in New Zealand, and not with IMG, but, again, that was around sort of all the non-general emission sales, all the premium seating, which was difficult in a way just because you had a shot clock on, the tournament was definitely gonna happen in October, 2011, and you had a year run up to be able to sell as much as possible within the confines of where you were landing in a foreign land.

So that was that. And then moved across to Sydney where the rest of my family are and started working for what was then a AEG now ASM Global. So we're the largest venue operator in the world. So we don't manage residential, commercial. It's more stadiums, arenas, convention centers, theaters, and there's about 350 of those across the world.

I won't list them. You'll be pleased to hear. And that rolled on really around the commercial sides. Anything to do with naming rights or partnerships or supply deals or hospitality. For the Australia and New Zealand venues, which we manage. And you either work at a group role like that, or you work on a specific project.

And so then Covid kicked in, must have felt like 2020 maybe in Australia. And the whole events industry just stopped. Hundreds of events a year, and then it just went to nothing. So fortunately an opportunity came up with Kai Tak and the timing was good, and it was a little bit of a Carpe Diem. So, here we are.

[00:10:12] Colin: So you are the manager, explain what your day to day, So what do you do?

[00:10:16] James: So, yeah it, it's moved around a little bit, but over the last four and a half years, has been across, I guess, event procurement.

So, the events that we want to win, and that's either could be a, badminton association or volleyball association that wants to do a junior event. The Hong Kong Volleyball Association right through to bidding for a major international sports event. And so those are the extremes.

And really you want to make your venue as flexible and as commercially attractive as possible around the things that you provide for free and the things that you charge. As well as, wanting to demonstrate that there's a big draw because of not only their event, but because of your venue.

And so event procurement across sport and, non-sport. And when I say non-sport, that's live entertainment, which is music. And then also it could be Disney on Ice. It could be a circus, it could be anything that sells tickets. And then there's mice events. So we're not really built like a Hong Kong convention center.

And that's good 'cause they'll play in their space and we'll play in ours. But we do have an ability to do some pretty special events, whether they're, product launches or AGMs or, a wealthy somebody's 50th birthday party. So really the event procurement side, and then B2B marketing.

So how do we create sort of win-win relationships, whether it's with a Hong Kong Tourist Board or an Invest Hong Kong or Chambers of Commerce or hotels or any sort of business entity. There's another team that looks after sort of B2C. So what is the man or woman on the street, how can they get, be attracted to get to Kai Tak.

And then sponsorship doubled with that. And then also in terms of brands associating themselves with, with Kai Tak. And we've already got some runs on the board there, which is great. And then corporate hospitality. So some brands just turn around and say, we don't need the public profile.

But we do wanna provide a special environment, which is really first of its kind in Hong Kong through corporate hospitality and entertaining people in style. And that that's getting called the Pearl Club, which is like a sub-brand within Kai Tak.

Sports 

[00:12:05] Colin: That's very, very interesting because the stadium gives you the ability to do that.

You and the whole area gives that ability. And of course the core event is the rugby sevens. I mean, whether you agree or not agree, but it is fair every single year, the three days as well, and it's gonna be event which has always been there to deal with it all.

How much of your time is spent doing the Rugby Sevens compared to all the other events as well? Or does it run itself or is it just a unique one or what?

[00:12:35] James: Well, it's certainly what, Kai Tak is famous for because people were all, in the buildup talking about its its movement from the old to the new.

But I've gotta say that the Nicholas Tse promoter, lovely people. They, they don't particularly care about Rugby Sevens. They care about their event, and same for Mayday coming up. Same for all every different hirer coming up, whatever their event. So, we need to just switch on as soon as the previous event is done to move on to the next one, because some of them want, a different playing surface. They want different guest services quantity. They want a retractable roof in a different position. They want, F&B to be done in a certain way. So every event is hugely different. And I guess, while the sevens has been a massive part and certainly what we are famous for, we are attracting different audiences because we've got a Taiwanese rock band, in Mayday this weekend. And some people don't care about rugby, but they're diehard Coldplay fans. So it just allows us to, broaden our reach. But, I don't wanna underplay it. The Hong Kong China rugby people are fantastic to work for and they're all about what positive role rugby can play in making society a better place. And that's not being cheesy. That's, that's fact.

And they're fabulous.

[00:13:39] Colin: Coldplay did very well. Over 200,000 music fans over four different nights, a different type of challenge, do you think we're gonna get more similar bands coming in and will you be able to entice them here?

[00:13:51] James: Absolutely. Yeah. And, and I think our calendar's looking pretty strong for this year. I mean, we think that really these venues should only really have three modes. One is bumping in an event, one is delivering the event, and the other is bumping out of the event. There shouldn't be an idle venue.

We need to go back to back to back. Because the demand is there. And I think with the likes of a Coldplay, I only heard this secondhand, but I heard there was 87,000 people. Of the 200,000 people came from overseas, which I'm including mainland in that definition.

So, I'm sure the Hong Kong tourist board people would love that stat because a lot of those people are probably staying a couple of nights. They're gonna restaurants, they're taking taxis. But back to your question, those four nights in five days demonstrated to promoters that we're capable of delivering a really world class event.

And we're getting a lot of fans pretty excited about the content that's getting brought through. So if you're keeping both those stakeholders happy and excited, then it bodes well for the future.

[00:14:47] Colin: Yes. And of course the biggest problem with the old stadium, causeway Bay was the pitch. Yeah, you couldn't move it.

And if you had another event, of course the pitch got churned up and it was impossible to put a pop concert without the pitch being affected. But now with the new technology, your pitch moves in and out. So it really gives you the ability to, have great sporting events and at the same time move it the next day to a pop concert.

Yeah. That, and that must take a lot of energy and a lot of time in dealing with all of it.

[00:15:17] James: Yeah. Well, I one thing I'm not is a turf expert, but we do have a turf expert on site a gentle by the name of Malcolm Caddies, and his unofficial nickname is The Turf Whisperer. So he does some magic anyway, and I think anybody that's seen the pitches would agree with that.

But there's a juggle involved in that event, which involves some luck and good management. But ideally you're running, sporting events together. So that you're, you're not having to change that pitch, and you're getting good use out of it. Then you flip it and you're putting on what's called I track, and then gigs can be held on that, hopefully a few in a row.

So again, it is good for time, it's good for efficiency.

[00:15:52] Colin: Yes. And also what's very interesting, we have the biggest sport in Hong Kong, Soccer. It is the one that most Hong Kong people love and with the ability of having Arsenal Tottenham playing their sort of friendly derby, Liverpool, AC Milan playing each other, that should be a spectacular event for the football where they would set up. Subject of course, to the main stars playing.

We don't have another Messi incident.

[00:16:17] James: Yeah. Well, fortunately it's a squad that's coming over. Not one individual, where people are coming to see a team, which is probably makes things a little easier. But yeah, I mean, we are ultimately, we're a sports park and we want to enable as much grassroots participation as as possible.

We also want as much elite sport as possible, in the triangle that exists there. So that's good for a whole bunch of reasons. And again, w be a good sign in terms of delivering more sporting content in the future.

[00:16:44] Colin: And developing that theme. I mean, Hong Kong did really well in the Olympics and that encouraged everybody to realize that, with gold medalists here and sports is becoming far more an important idea.

Like sports law is the new idea that everybody wants to get involved in sports law because they think it's a nice niche. And where do you think that what Kai Tak can offer the whole sports center to encourage Hong Kong sport, not only the soccer, the cricket, hockey, all these sort of events and swimming as well.

Do you see that as being a game changer? 

[00:17:18] James: Yeah, hugely. That's a massive motivation. I mean, this park was built for the people of Hong Kong, and we have a duty, an opportunity, however you describe it.

To be able to attract as many bright, enthusiastic local folks to be able to join our team. I think it's around 250, 300 permanent staff at the moment. A lot of those people are from hotels, or they're from IT companies, or they're from elsewhere, but now they're part of the sport and entertainment industry, and we want to keep those people in the industry and grow the enjoyment from those people, but also grow the IP and grow the industry.

And we've got an opportunity to grow the sports industry, the live entertainment industry, the my industry, through getting more money into the system, allowing these associations to be more profitable so they can put on more people. And I think there's a bit of a snowball there. So we're certainly not there yet.

But we've got, as I say, 250, 300 full-time staff. There's thousands of casuals that are now having exposure to sport and live entertainment that they didn't have before. And we just want them to stay within, inverted commas, the family.

[00:18:21] Colin: What people have got to realize is that once you get out of Kai Tak tube station or the MTR and you start walking in, the first thing you see, it's a small stadium and that time people can train on that is open as well. And it really gives you the real feel of the identity of sport and it's there for everyone to come in and of course. If all the outlets, the retail and the sports events come in all the time, they will all grow and it will become a real hive, a day out, come and visit the sports center. I think you've got huge potential.

[00:18:51] James: We're building our sort of data set all the time in terms of our reach on socials and emails and things. But Colin, we'd love to get, you down to the court sports park again to an enjoy event.

And then maybe the next time you come down, you're going out to dinner with your partner, and then maybe next time you're coming down to work out, next time you're coming to buy some merchandise. Or bring the kids or whatever. So there's a whole bunch of reasons to get there.

We'd love you to fall in love with a place for a bunch of reasons, not just one.

[00:19:15] Colin: I was very, very impressed with the whole stadium and the whole setup when I was there for the Rugby Sevens.

But you are operating the sports park on behalf of the government. Government has targets. Governments are not always the easiest people to deal with. What are they expecting from you? I mean, they talk mega events and big events and all the rest, but I think you are answerable to the Hong Kong government a little bit.

How do you deal with that 

[00:19:39] James: point?

Yeah, yeah. We report our consortium, which is led by by New World and ASM Global is part of that along with populace and a hipping and some of the other design and build entities. But we report into CSTB, Culture, Sport and Tourism Bureau.

And quite rightly, they've got a document called the Employer's Requirements or the ERs, which is quite a lengthy document, but that's, that's okay. I think if you're investing 30 billion in something, then you'd like to know the key, non-negotiables of what it needs to deliver.

And so within that document is an annual minimum number of events, minimum number of spectators, minimum number of what we call sports programming. So that's not you and me just having a head of tennis 'cause that doesn't really count. But if we went to a yoga class and we had a qualified instructor taking 20 people for an hour, that's 20 hours. We need to do 120,000 hours a year as one of the employer requirements. Divide that by 365 days is 328 hours a day. So we need to make sure that we're getting the balance right between these high end events of the arsenals and the spurs, but also allowing enough space and time throughout our precinct to get the community involved to make sure we are hitting those numbers, but also it's the right thing to do.

[00:20:52] Colin: Do you think Hong Kong people now are becoming more focused on sport, do you think, in the past, you hardly had anything here in the past, but now, do you see a change in that, in that people you know are really into their sport and fitness and all the rest? 

[00:21:05] James: Yeah,certainly fitness, there is momentum there and you see a lot of fellows walking around with, golden State Warriors singles on, I think if over time there's gonna be a competition or a structure that lends itself to that guy, being a local basketball fan of a local team in addition to the Golden State Warriors, we're never gonna replace that love that he has for the Warriors.

But how do we get the structure, whether it's football or basketball, tennis, whatever, to have regular competition that attracts more of, what we call in the industry, these tribes,

[00:21:36] Colin: And if you have the message to the citizens of Hong Kong, This is your sports center, this is your park.

How are you gonna promote that? Do you have any ideas how you're gonna really sort of take that to get it up to level, to get all the citizens of Hong Kong or majority really involved in the new Kai Tak Sports Park?

[00:21:55] James: It can't be done from just a Gwei Lo lens. What do people actually want to see when they come through? And, that's, I guess, us liasing with promoters to be able to say, Hey, this particular style of music or style of sport is gonna be attractive 'cause a promoter needs to take a bit of a punt on that. But no, I guess we just need to make sure we're as inclusive as possible in terms of the things that we're doing, we're as cutting edge as we can in terms of our marketing to reach broader different segments of society, whether that's old, young girls, boys, whatever.

And make sure that we, widen the net to give most people the opportunity to come and watch or play, or both.

[00:22:35] Colin: James, it's been wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More.

[00:22:41] James: Thanks again.