Episode 54 - Paola Sangiovanni

In this episode, we are joined by Paola Sangiovanni, the newly elected president of global legal services organisation Ally Law. Paola discusses her first steps in the legal profession, how she has built her practice as a corporate lawyer in Milan, and her hopes and ambitions for Ally Law as she begins her two-year leadership term. She speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned.

00:38 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:24 Paola's Recent Activities and Ally Law AGM
02:14 Paola's Background and Journey into Law
05:04 Early Career and Specialization in Life Sciences
07:04 Involvement with Ally Law
10:56 Balancing Law Practice and Ally Law Responsibilities
13:15 Future Challenges and Goals for Ally Law
21:34 Advice for Young Lawyers and the Impact of AI
26:38 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

 Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter

Established in 1985, Boase Cohen & Collins is an independent law firm equipped with Hong Kong knowledge and global reach. Please visit our website.

Transcript

[00:38:00] Coilin: Welcome everybody for this episode of Law and More. I am delighted to be joined by Italian Lawyer Paola Sangiovanni. A very successful corporate lawyer with Gitti and Partners in Milan. She's also the newly elected president of Ally Law, the Global Legal Services Organization, of which my firm, Boase Cohen and Collins, is a longstanding member.

Aside from her current practice, she now has to consider the interest of 2,800 lawyers in 80 law firms around the world. Paola, thank you so much for giving up your time with your busy schedule to speak to us, and as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?

[00:38:46] Paola: Well, thank you Colin, and thank you very much for having me on this podcast. Well, what's keeping me busy? That's a good question. Obviously clients, as you well know, can be demanding, although it's always a pleasure to assist them. But I have just come back from Buenos Aires where we had our AGM.

Which is the general meeting of Ally Law. And like you described, Ally Law is a large network. You've given some numbers. It's 80 jurisdictions and 2,800 plus lawyers. Last year, Ally Law Network exchanged 8 million US dollars of referrals. This is an impressive number, which has been steadily going up in the past years, and we're very happy about the direction this is taking. So that's what's keeping me busy these days.

[00:39:36] Coilin: Let's backtrack a little bit. Of course, I'm going to ask you a lot about Ally Law a little bit later on, but let's talk a little bit about your upbringing, your landscape, and let's go back to beginning. Tell me a little bit about your early days, what got you into law, et cetera, how you became a lawyer.

[00:39:53] Paola: I was raised in Italy. I was born on one lake, Lake Garda. I was raised on another lake and I studied in Milan at the State University. I. But as I started my practice I realized that it would be very interesting for me to get more international experience.

So I was lucky enough to go to Berkeley Law for an LLM, a Master's of Laws in 1997, which was a very important experience for me and, life changing at that age. So I started practicing law in a smaller firm, but then I joined a global US firm. I guess you probably remember that.

Yes. And then I joined again a smaller independent firms. So about 10 years ago our firm joined ally law. We've subsequently merged with GTM Partners, which is a 100 lawyer law firm with offices in Milan, Rome. And a focus on corporate M and A practice with a lot of other practices as well. We like to think about ourselves as a full practice law firm. Of course, we don't do certain areas. We generally assist businesses, but we try to assist them in all of their needs.

[00:41:05] Coilin: Yeah. Do you have any memories as to what brought you into the law? Were you told, let's say I was told either accountant, lawyer, or doctor. Other people have said to me they became lawyers 'cause they were watching in their spare time, a sort of a soap program on the TV called Crown Court, and everyone said, oh, I like how the barristers behave. What took you into law? 

[00:41:25] Paola: Well, unfortunately, I don't have as a glamorous story behind this. I didn't like math, so I chose law out of, I think really lack of fantasy and no other great ideas. And actually, I must confess, I pretty much hated law school. I thought it was very, very boring and I couldn't believe how much more fun practicing as a lawyer is.

And sometimes I think it's a well kept secret. They try to discourage you in your first years of law school by making it really boring. But practicing law is actually exciting and fun, and you do it with a group of people that you like, and the clients always change, and it's great to be able to solve those riddles that the clients put to you.

It's a lot different than I thought, so I actually was drawn to it, I wanna say by desperation, but by lack of other options. So it grew on me, I guess while working.

[00:42:26] Coilin: What type of work did you do at the very beginning? What did you enjoy doing when you first became a young lawyer?

[00:42:31] Paola: Well, I started as a corporate and commercial lawyer. I think back in the days, you didn't need necessarily to be so focused in one area or specialized, you could do some general practice, general corporate practice and that would be okay, but later on about, 15 years ago, I would say, I discovered one field that really excited me and I focus more and more on that, and especially on that industry, which is life sciences. So right now I focus on clients who are either pharmaceutical companies or medical device companies, or other entities in the healthcare space.

And I enjoy not just assisting them from a corporate standpoint, but from a 360 degrees in all of their needs, which span from data protection, anti-corruption, obviously corporate commercial, M and A as well, public procurement. So anything that a company in that space really needs.

[00:43:34] Coilin: And obviously your time in working in the USA studying at Berkeley, working for big American law firms helped you in becoming a better lawyer or better understanding. Did that give you a leap over your contemporaries, do you think?

[00:43:49] Paola: I think so, and especially, what I think, I took from that is a focus on the client. I think a lot of lawyers in Italy, maybe in the early days, were focused on themselves. More than on the client's needs. And I think an American firm gave me that focus which is really important and it's more contemporary.

I don't think any lawyers nowadays can really not focus on the client. The industry really has evolved in that respect.

[00:44:18] Coilin: And establishing the firm in Milan. That's been interesting 'cause it helps in being in the healthcare international platform. What brought you into, getting involved in Ally Law? For our listeners, just a quick explainer at that time. Ally Law is a global referral network with many firms. I was on the board, and then I became president. And I remember at the early times when you first joined us as well. So we are always looking for very good firms to join us. And your firm came along and you joined us, which was brilliant.

[00:44:50] Paola: Yeah. We were very excited to join Ally Law because we were in a global network so, our practice was decidedly international. We assisted many investors who came to Italy. So oftentimes our clients were from abroad, so going independent was a smart move. I think we adapted more to the local market, but we were missing that network, that global footprint that we had before.

And some of our clients were still asking, who do you know in, France or Germany or the us how can we be helped in other jurisdictions as well. So Ally Law was really instrumental to filling that gap because it's great to have referrals. From other firms, obviously it's usually interesting work and clients that you wouldn't be able to contact otherwise.

But it's also great to have the ability to suggest the right professional in more than 80 jurisdictions to one of your clients. And it really fosters that link of trust that lawyers have with their clients. So that's been great for us. And also it's wonderful to share best practices with other like-minded professionals around the world as independent.

And from entrepreneurs, we often face the same challenges. And it's great to share solutions. So in these general meetings where we have, there's always a session where we actually exchange views and tips and you always come back with some new ideas. And reinvigorated you never feel alone in your jurisdiction.

You feel a sense of belonging to a bigger network, which is great.

[00:46:32] Coilin: Now, do you remember your first annual general meeting of Ally Law, and did you ever believe that when you first came to that first meeting, you would ultimately become president of our organization? 

[00:46:43] Paola: in truth. Never, never. I remember it was London, my first, and you probably were there, Colin.

[00:46:49] Coilin: I was there. I finished my immediate past presidency and then I was there at that time. I do remember that as well. So for the benefit of our listeners. Tell us what you as the president, what do you have to do.

[00:47:02] Paola: Well, we have meetings of our committees and luckily Ally Law has decided not to do things unprofessionally, but to rely on a very professional provider of services that's lift off. So we have very solid help from Wendy Horn and her team.

Who help us plan all of our activities. So I don't have to take care of that. I do have to attend those meetings in person and online. And Ally Law thanks to people like you who were presidents in the past is a well oiled machine. So I don't expect that my help is needed for that.

Obviously there are items on the agenda that we need to take care of. Expansion is one. I know Colin, you're very involved in the expansion efforts of Ally law. We are definitely not everywhere we need to be. We need some jurisdictions, but Ally Law is very rigorous in selecting the firms and understanding, identifying what is the right firm for us.

So that process can be time consuming. So we obviously need a few jurisdictions. Some are, are quite crucial. But we're taking our time to get there to make sure that it is the right fit. 

[00:48:18] Coilin: What I think is also quite interesting is that you do have a very busy law practice yourself, and I had this problem when I was working. How do you juggle your time between your law practice and Ally Law?

[00:48:32] Paola: While my strength is my team. I have a great team of lawyers who are able to fill in when needed and to keep me abreast of what's going on in the office when I'm traveling. And obviously your phone and all of the devices that nowadays follow you all the time help a lot because I feel almost that I can be in two places at once.

[00:48:55] Coilin: Yes, I mean. I recollect that when I was president at the time, we didn't have too much of that, so people were maybe a little bit reluctant to call me and spend time on spending the cost of a phone call. But I still got plenty of phone calls and it was lots of members calling me directly, asking me for, can I do this? Can I do that? What about this work? And how can I get more referrals as well? I think if you have a chat with Ramesh. You are the immediate past president. He will tell you as to how many times a day he's trying to put out fires, but little fires, not big fires. It's sort of helping, especially newer members, trying to make use of the tools that Ally Law have to offer for them to ensure that our referral network, really works well.

So I presume what you're gonna be trying to do is to manage your time to do all of that, apart from the fact that you have to travel to all the meetings. That's another explainer to all our members. Ally Law has three meetings a year. The regional meetings in Asia Pacific the Americas and European area, you have to attend all of those as well as the AGM, that's a bit of traveling, especially as the meetings are held in the latter part of the year.

So you're getting yourself ready for all of those coming up soon.

[00:50:11] Paola: Yeah, I have a bit of a crazy fall coming up because I will need to be in Costa Rica in September, then in Latvia in October, and then in Bali in November. So I've never traveled as much in my previous professional life, but, juggling is something that lawyers learn early on.

I also have two children at home, now they're grown up, but I know what this entails.

[00:50:35] Coilin: You are gonna do two years as president. You're starting off, you've just been elected, and I'm gonna ask you now, if you have some challenges for Ally Law to enable it to evolve, how do you see our network beginning to grow? What problems do you see and what type of things are you looking forward to doing?

[00:50:53] Paola: Well, there's a couple of things I'm thinking about the first one. Like you say, all members would like more referrals. That's the first advantage of Ally law. But really, every member needs to feel an important part of the network. It doesn't matter how big or small the firm, how big or small the economy of their estate.

I think it will be important to make every member of the network feel important and relevant. And I know we're already doing that, but we need to do that even more and if we look at the larger picture, of course we are in exceptional times.

Maybe every generation says that, but I think every day you open the news, the newspaper, there's something scary or concerning that happens. And that's very different from the world we grew up in where things tended to improve, we had issues, but we were also solving them in a more peaceful and with a more connected action between states.

So I think the balance of power is shifting fast and as lawyers, we have a privilege, but also a responsibility because we have a special role. And I think as corporate and commercial lawyers, we sometimes feel we have nothing to do with justice or very little to do, but we're actually in a good position, maybe in the best position to remind ourselves and our fellow citizens and leaders that our democracies are fundamental. And the rule of law is very, very important. And decisions of courts need to be complied with and respected. And all these concepts which we learned in the first year of law school or even before, are very important. And I think we're rediscovering this nowadays, don't you think Colin?

[00:52:50] Coilin: Absolutely. Just to sort of give you a story, the annual general meeting has just got completed, as we said in Buenos Aires, Argentina. All the law firms are there, and I sent along two of my senior associates and a slightly junior solicitor. They all went along and they were amazed as to meeting so many different people from so many different regions with different ideology, different thinkings with the American lawyers, the South American lawyers, the Europeans, and everyone together in one room discussing the world we live in. Which you can't ignore the world we're living in. But they felt that by meeting all these lawyers and the cross border relationships helps everyone. Makes each person a better lawyer. And secondly, it enhances one's understanding as to the other cultures in, for example, our US members.

You have to deal with what's happening in the us. Our members in Europe have these tensions in Europe and in the Asia Pacific, we have our new China member. So putting it all together into this melting pot and hoping something different comes out, turning everyone into a better lawyer. And they found that meeting good, in that it gave them a new perspective as to how to be a better lawyer.

And that's a sort of a soft power of these international referral networks, and I think that's very, very important. I think you were alluding to that point anyway.

[00:54:16] Paola: Yeah, yeah. You, it really broadens your horizon. And especially when you're assisting a foreign client, you need to understand that the culture may be different. The needs may be different. The focus on certain issues may be completely different, so you need to be a lot more adaptable that if you're only dealing with domestic clients I think enriching the lawyers very much and obviously the clients learn as well. Thanks to your help too.

[00:54:44] Coilin: Yes. I mean, again, just to help everyone, I have many clients here. By Hong Kong standards, we're medium to large. Most of the law firms are either a sole proprietor or five to six lawyers. For me, it would be impossible for me to open up offices worldwide.

On the other hand, I want to tell my partners, my clients and my other partners, we are of an international nature, and Ally Law performs that task in that I can say to my client, don't worry, I can find you a good lawyer who we work with in most of the major jurisdictions around this world we live in.

And that enhances and strengthens a smaller firm it, which you don't notice that until. The clients saying, oh yes, I'll come to you. Or my clients may go directly to the other law firms. 'cause they know that to be part of the referral network, they've gotta achieve certain basic fundamental criteria to join.

So I think that assists and helps greatly as well. Now, I'm gonna push you a little bit because you'll be president for two years, end of the two years. You got any, points that you really would like to see, you got any markers you want to put down?

[00:55:49] Paola: Well, it'd be nice to have the referrals numbered up even more. It'd be nice to have a few key jurisdictions filled out. It would be nice to continue to foster this connection that as you've seen in these meetings, is very real. I sometimes receive emails asking me to join a network of some sort of lawyers with one name or another.

But many of these networks are on paper. If you come to one of these meetings, or even the online ones sometimes give you this different perspective. This is a network with a beating heart, with people who are genuinely happy to work together and to sometimes even go out and find new ways to try and work together.

So even proactively, not just by receiving the referral and that's it. So I think in this world this is very important. We have a human connection that is so important in our practice. It's important in our relationship with our clients. But it also is important in respect of the connection you make with your colleagues and your colleagues can be abroad and you really feel that the French firm, or any other firm in the network, the German firm, whatever. They are in a different city, but they feel like your colleagues, they're gonna treat your client as you would've treated him or her, and so there's absolute trust when you hand over a file to another Ally Law member firm.

[00:57:20] Coilin: That's very, very important and I agree entirely with that as well. I think one other area is this, is that part of having this referral network is really encouraging the younger lawyers to come to the meetings and to get involved in networking and to gain the experience.

And no matter who you are as your young lawyer, you can bring along a fresh perspective as to how to enhance the organization. I think you would agree with that.

[00:57:45] Paola: Completely. I think the risk of these networks is that people enjoy meeting old friends, but it doesn't have to be a club or a clique of older lawyers. Who know how lawyering is and exchange files. It has to be an opportunity for the firm as a whole and especially for the younger people.

But let me give you an example. We hosted for a couple months at GM Partners in our Milan office. A lawyer from Buenos Aires. He was interested in data protection. They don't have A GDPR-like statute in Argentina. So he was very interested in finding out more about our data protection practice.

He came, he had a very good experience. He met with all of our, people, not just the delegates, but all of our staff and professionals. It was very enriching. And that's another great way to retain talent in your firm by being able to offer these kind of experiences abroad that are not just for the big law networks.

We, we can do it as independent firms as well.

[00:58:54] Coilin: Yes, I think that I agree with you is very important. Now, what would be your advice to a young legal professional just setting off in their career today? If you had to give 'em a little bit of advice for a younger lawyer, what would you have to say to them if you have the opportunity?

[00:59:10] Paola: Colin, the world is changing so fast and AI is here. We're using it, we're testing it. It's not something for the future, it's already here. And this is a unique challenge for a young lawyer because you may remember how we learned to be a lawyer. We were shadowing people.

We were basically sitting next to them and seeing what they were doing. And learning by, doing very mundane tasks like translations, for example. It would really help you to understand in depth a legal document. If you were translating it, this is how you would learn. Or in the early days, just actually walking to the law library to find some cases. And I sound very old, but this is how I learned. So I'm not really sure how a young lawyer will be able to acquire all these skills if certain things are made so easy and could also be simply wrong. You continue to see AI hallucinating and if you're a seasoned professional like we are, you catch these mistakes.

But if you're a younger lawyer, maybe you trust the machine. I was once reading that your level of trust on AI actually depends on how much the license fee costs. If AI is very expensive, then you're gonna say, who am I to contradict this very smart machine.

So you'll just, maybe go along and maybe make a big mistake. So I think your question is a difficult one because young lawyers will need ways to learn that are going to be different from the way we learned in the past. And of course using AI well is a skill they will need to have and we will need also to acquire Colin.

But I liked what I heard once in another podcast, I don't think AI will steal our job, but a lawyer who knows how to use AI well will definitely steal our job because that will be important. So I don't think I have the answer. I don't know how young lawyers will do it.

I think they will need to be patient and maybe try to not get too complacent and lazy behind machines and try to remember that the machine is thinking with a certain logic and use that logic in their heads just to train themselves.

[01:01:31] Coilin: It is a very interesting area of this, AI matters. Everyone's saying to me they're all going to get into all these new programs as well. I think everyone's gonna have to deal with that. Are you optimistic for the future of the legal profession worldwide?

[01:01:45] Paola: I think lawyers will continue to exist. I think our practice will need to evolve. It will probably need to be more focused on the human connection with the client. I think we now have machines that do our jobs faster and for certain aspects, maybe even better, more accurately than we do.

Humans obviously make more mistakes, although AI still hallucinates. But we will need to be better human beings. I think lawyers in the past could just give good advice. We have to be more strategic. Our advice will need to be more strategic and we will need more empathy. We will need to be a lot more human to differentiate ourselves from the AI.

So I think the experience of clients will need to be different and what we'll be offering, will need to be slightly more sophisticated than before.

[01:02:44] Coilin: Yeah, I think that's very, very interesting because in the end of the day. Lawyering is all about experience. The Supreme Court for USA is about to deliver loads of judgments and AI is now trying to determine and speculate what are those decisions are going to be based on all the past.

They're feeding everything in. Now who knows what they're gonna do. But I saw that article and I read that with some interest and I felt, well it's interesting, but at the end of the day, experience does matter a lot in respect of all of this. All of AI and all the rest is a great platform for Ally Law to jump on and to see how we can make the best use of it. That may be one of the good things that could come out of all AI in the next, year or so. I think.

[01:03:28] Paola: Yeah, definitely we're exploring how members are using AI and sharing best practices and we're learning from other members that have experimented With AI more. GTM partners, were quite a pioneer in that field. We've been having AI for a while, but we've been training it ourselves, which means the process has been very slow, but we didn't want to compromise on confidentiality of information and data of our clients.

So we kept the system completely closed.

[01:03:59] Coilin: That's good. Well. Paola, it's been fantastic chatting with you. I know you're gonna be very, very busy with Ally Law and I can assure you this, and I had a podcast with Ramesh at the very beginning. I said to him, Ramesh, you don't realize how much time it's going to take up. But I said to him, it's gonna be a good time and you'll gain and benefit from it as well. Paola, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More. Thank you.

[01:04:27] Paola: Thank you, Colin. It was fun. Thank you.