Episode 55 - John Scott KC SC

In this episode, we meet John Scott, King’s Counsel and Senior Counsel, and a familiar face to many in the law profession. John looks back on his journey through the legal landscape, from his early days as a barrister in London, to the landmark case that brought him to Hong Kong, and his many years here as a commercial litigation and arbitration specialist. He also talks about his long association with Des Voeux Chambers and his work as a Justice of the Peace. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned.

00:42 Introduction and Guest Background
01:28 Current Work and Recent Activities
01:46 Early Life and Education
03:59 Career Beginnings and Early Practice
06:44 Move to Hong Kong and Initial Impressions
09:17 Life in Hong Kong and Professional Growth
17:57 Involvement in the Hong Kong Bar Association
18:34 Role as Justice of the Peace
20:51 Views on the Judiciary and Legal System
31:31 Personal Interests and Hobbies
32:16 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter 

Established in 1985, Boase Cohen & Collins is an independent law firm equipped with Hong Kong knowledge and global reach. Please visit our website.

Transcript

[00:42:00] Colin: Hello everyone, my guest today is an old friend and past sparring partner, John Scott King's Council Senior Council, Justice of the Peace and a Master of the Bench of Middle Temple, just to give you some of his titles. He's an accomplished trial advocate with decades of experience in many areas of commercial litigation. The legal ranking publication, Chambers and Partners describe him as a smooth, yet forceful advocate, who knows how to cut to the chase. I'm sure he'll do just that in our coming chat. John, welcome to our podcast, and as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?

[00:42:46] John: Thank you, Colin. What's been keeping me busy recently is mainly insolvent Chinese property companies because there's a number of them at the moment which are either being wound up or in the process of being restructuring.

So that is on my mind and on my desk at the moment. 

[00:43:04] Colin: Let's go a little bit back in time and let's go to bit of your history of your family and what got you into a law, your education. Tell us a little bit about that.

[00:43:13] John: Yes, thank you. I was brought up in Essex, although actually I was born in the east end of London at Guys hospital.

So that makes me a true cockney.

Excellent.

Not many people would detect that from my accent, I suspect. I'm the son of two doctors and come from a medical family background. Nothing to do with Law on either side of my family. I was brought up, as I say in Essex, I had a fairly conventional boarding school education, and then I went to Cambridge in the end of the 1970s.

[00:43:46] Colin: And what made you study law? Was it I either become a doctor or become a lawyer?

[00:43:50] John: No, it was slightly assumed by my family. I was the oldest son that I would follow the family tradition and become a doctor. But my parents had a very close friend called Paul Cecott who was a very inspiring barrister. He was born in Vienna and emigrated to Britain just before the Second World War. He was a well-known company and administrative lawyer, human rights lawyer as well. He was a campaigner and a broadcaster, an author. 

[00:44:23] Colin: Actually, we went to the same college, Downing, Cambridge. So how did you choose Downing? Because all the lawyers went to Downing. I was there at 77. You're a little bit later, but what took you there?

[00:44:34] John: Well, I actually got in to read economics, although I was interviewed by our tutor, John Hawkin before that.

And I mentioned in the course of the interview that I was interested in changing to law at some point. And when I actually arrived nine months later. I went to see him and he said, oh, well there's this Iranian chap that hasn't turned up to take up his place to study law. This was during the Iranian revolution,

And he said to me, would you like his place? Now? And I said, very much so, because I looked at the economics book list and none of that appealed to me at all. And so I snapped that offer up in my first week at Downing.

[00:45:14] Colin: So three years doing law at Downing. What took you into, the career as a barrister? What made you go to the bar? I think the short and frivolous answer is I quite like the sound of my own voice. 

And I did a bit of mooting at Cambridge. There wasn't very much in those days. I hope there's more than there, there was in the present law course, but I enjoyed that very much. 

[00:45:37] Colin: Just for our listeners mooting is sort of practice a trial court where you have an argument work before a judge, and then great training area for potential lawyers. So you went pupilage?

[00:45:49] John: Yeah, I was a pupil of David Richards. Now Lord Richards, Supreme Court judge at what was then called 24 Stone Buildings and is now Erskine Chambers, which are one of the foremost company law chambers in London.

[00:46:02] Colin: And did you do any other law other than company law? What was your early practice areas? 

[00:46:08] John: My early practice areas was that company law doing a lot of these winding up petitions before the UK companies, London companies Judge. I also did a period of pupilage with Anthony Thornton in the construction area in his chambers in Grays Inn. And so I had a sort of dual grounding in, What most people think are unrelated areas of practice, which is company law and construction law. And so that was my background as a young barrister. And

[00:46:35] Colin: And , you did your pupillage, I mean, you were in chambers. And what's your early years of practice? Was it very general in the commercial area? Did you ever get to do anything else? 

[00:46:44] John: Well I was the first pupil of David Richards as he reminded me a number of times not to have to pay him.

[00:46:51] Colin: Right

[00:46:52] John: To be his pupil. There was no payment in those days. So I would do anything that would come my way. Those winding up petitions on a Monday morning.

I think that we got the prince sum of five pounds for each, but if you got more than one, then that was something to go on. And then I was deviling for others, doing paperwork, doing some magistrate's court, plea in mitigation. 

[00:47:16] Colin: So you did appear before a Magistrate.

[00:47:18] John: Oh, yes. Both here and in the UK before I came here.

I remember one I think it was my first plea of mitigation. There was a tradition that a Barrister arguing, a plea of mitigation was never interrupted by the bench. And I was appearing for some old lag who was. Convicted on his ump teeth occasion of breaking and entering burglary. And I began my plea mitigation as I thought would invoke some sympathy by saying your Honor, my client comes from a broken home.

At this point, the judge interrupted much by surprise. Say, Mr. Scott, your client is 38. He must have got over that by now.

[00:47:58] Colin: So you started on a good foot

[00:48:00] John: No. Not particularly, no.

[00:48:02] Colin: What got you to Hong Kong? So you practiced must have been doing quite well in London. What brought you out here?

[00:48:07] John: Well, the reason was quite simply the Harbor City arbitration dispute.

[00:48:12] Colin: Our Wheelock case

[00:48:14] John: Well, it was, yeah. That was in part because you'll remember so YK Powell. Yes. Yes. Took over the Hong Kong and Kowloon Wharf and Go Down Company Limited which was in the middle of developing the site that we now know as Harbor City and the tip of Tsim Sha Tsui.

And what happened a result of that takeover is that his son-in-law, who was given charge of the whole development, decided to sue all the contractors and all the consultants, architects, engineers, et cetera. And in those days, there was almost nobody in Hong Kong or there weren't very many practitioners in Hong Kong who knew anything about construction law.

And it was in the very early days of arbitration in Hong Kong as well. So there was a enormous shortage of people to work on the pleadings and the background evidence. And so I was asked by Robert Dukes at Denton Hall and Bergen as they were then called. To come out and he said, I'll only be here for two weeks.

And I'll collect up the papers and bring them back to London and work on them in London. I'm still here.

[00:49:18] Colin: So you arrived and started working that case. Then you are obviously called to the bar.

[00:49:23] John: No, I wasn't because, because it was an Arbitration. 

[00:49:25] Colin: But after that.

[00:49:26] John: Yeah, after that I was working very closely with Neil Kaplan, who had recently just left the Attorney General's Chambers, as they were then called, set up a new set of chambers.

And so within, I think a year or so, he invited me to join his chambers and to be called to the Bar here, which I did. 

[00:49:43] Colin: Yeah, and early days in Hong Kong, your early impressions. Oh, fantastically exciting. Of course, I knew very little about Hong Kong. In fact, I knew so little about Hong Kong, I assumed that you flew here via New York, which wasn't the right course to take. And in fact, I had some connection with Hong Kong that I wasn't aware of at the time. I had a great uncle called Jeffrey Hamilton who'd been a prisoner of war here in Hong Kong. 

So I did have some connection with Hong Kong, although I didn't know it at the time.

[00:50:24] Colin: And what is so unique about him, and actually, I got to know you 'cause I was doing lots of cases with Neil Kaplan. I instructed him in the early days. Went to Des Voeux Chambers, and you've been there ever since. You've been in the same set of chambers for nearly coming up to numerous three, four decades.

Yeah. That's unusual.

[00:50:42] John: I suppose it is unusual. People are more mobile between chambers than they were, but Neil was a great inspiration to me and still is in fact. He set up these chambers.

I think when I joined there were only eight of us. We were very small operation compared to some of the larger sets like Aussie, Chung, Temple Chambers at the time. And we were going to specialize in arbitration. That was what Neil was very keen on. They just reasonably recently passed the 1982 legislation, mirroring the 1979 Act, which made it compulsory to resort to arbitration if you had a dispute involving an arbitration clause. And that was a big change in the law. And so it inspired time to develop that side of the practice

[00:51:27] Colin: Your early days in Hong Kong, enjoyable, busy, did do you think you were gonna be here all that time?

[00:51:33] John: No I didn't. Well I assumed that having joined a set of chambers I was going to spend a considerable amount of time here. I didn't realize quite how long I was gonna spend here, and I somehow assumed I'd be dividing my time between Hong Kong and London. But I met and married Catherine here.

We had children here, and it wasn't really practical to go backwards and forwards.

[00:51:54] Colin: And so Hong Kong has been your home for all these years as well?

[00:51:57] John: At one point in 1997. Quite frankly, I was not very optimistic about Hong Kong's prospects. So we did move the family back in 1997 for a period of time, put the children into school there, and I did practice back at the bar in London then for about three years.

But much to my surprise and delight, Hong Kong, did not suffer as badly as I had predicted. And so I resumed my practice back here in Neil's Chambers.

[00:52:25] Colin: And of course you were called in 1996 as a Queen's council, which then morphed into a senior council, which has also morphed into King's Council. Tell us a little bit about that. that, I Mean that obviously to become a leading council, you have to have the necessary experience, et cetera. Was that interesting times for you?

[00:52:44] John: Yeah, it was very exciting. Yes. I think I was one of the younger barristers to be called to the senior bar at that time. I was very busy. I was leading other junior council in numerous cases. And various people, Neil Kaplan included, and Henry Litton, who by then was on the bench, suggested that it was time for me to put in an application, which I did. And on the second time of asking, it was granted. And it was a great honor.

[00:53:15] Colin: And your practice really developed into the commercial arbitration work? Over the years. I know we did a little bit of cases together. I remember a couple of trip, we went down to Malaysia, a scheme of arrangement, if you recollect. I was acting from a Malaysian card company. And we needed to find the leading council, and Virginia was William Wong, who's now a senior council. I remember we had some very interesting times together in those early days working on those cases.

[00:53:44] John: Yes, I mentioned at the beginning, schemes of arrangement are keeping me busy still. Because they are the way that under Hong Kong law at the moment anyway companies that restructure themselves have to go through a scheme of arrangement, have to get caught of approval for the arrangement that they arrive at with their creditors or their shareholders or both.

So that's a very important part of commercial law in Hong Kong.

[00:54:07] Colin: As an explainer for our listeners, in a nutshell, we have a company which has hit hard times, be it cash flow, be it property devaluation, and they're listed on the various exchanges, some are not even listed. But to try and put in schemes that enable the creditors to have to come to agreement, to restructure, that is the process of going to the courts.

Unlike in the UK and in the USA, you have far more efficient, easier, like chapter 14. And in the UK it seems to be, the legislation is a little bit more modern than we have here, although we're trying to get down that route. Have have, have I outlined that?

[00:54:46] John: You have Colin? And, and this is very much my concern. I chaired the company law reform committee and one of the things that I tried to push through and support the government's proposal was the corporate restructuring. Bill, which broadly speaking, permitted companies to have a much more streamlined way of restructuring their operations, keeping the board of directors of the company in place, having a moratorium of their indebtedness without having to go through the somewhat complex scheme, meetings and court applications.

But very much to my surprise and disappointment that Bill seems to have lapsed. And I've been trying to find out what's happened to it and it just seems to have fallen off the reform radar.

[00:55:32] Colin: Yes, and developing as to your, your time here in Hong Kong. I've done many cases with you. In particular your chambers, Des Voeux Chambers. There's two big sets of chambers in Hong Kong of a leading sets Temple and Des Voeux. You then became, at one stage you were head of chambers, so I think this will be a little bit interested in what your duties as head of Chambers.

One of my guests was Winnie Tam, and she explained a little bit, but your take on it.

[00:55:57] John: Well if you were designing a corporate or administrative structure from scratch, you certainly wouldn't have a Chambers system.

But it's a medieval perhaps or certainly Victorian concept, Chambers. We are not partners, we're not shareholders. We are just a loose association of individuals, who come together to share overheads expenses. And you have a collegiate atmosphere where you discuss cases together. So a head of chambers really has no power to dictate to anybody.

You have a role to play in bringing people together, but you don't have any opportunities like you do. Colin, as a senior partner of a law firm of telling people what to do.

[00:56:39] Colin: I don't tell. I sort of guide.

[00:56:41] John: I'm sure you do very diplomatically and subtly, but the, it's harder as head of chambers and I served two five year terms as head of Des Voeux chambers.

It was very rewarding and over that time we, we grew exponentially. We're now over a hundred. When I joined, as I said, I think we were only eight. So that growth was slightly difficult to manage.

[00:57:05] Colin: And of course, I mean in the English system for Barristers, it's the same, but they had the Clarks and the Clarks was sometimes the people who were running the show. I used to ring up a clerk, I need someone to do this. I'll find you Mr. So and so, and I'll get you the fees and all the rest.

But here in Hong Kong. We didn't really have that, but I noticed recently when I was talking to, when Winnie came on the show she made on our podcast, she made it very clear that now you have a practice development manager and everything is far more sophisticated with websites, seminars, and utilizing social media.

Clients nowadays say to me. It was always Barrister. How do I find about them? How can I search them? You know? And people want to know that compared to what it was in the early days, and no one had any form of social media.

[00:57:51] John: Absolutely. Well, a practice development manager, we have a very good one. Who's hard at work with developing our practice is slightly different to the old fashioned concept of a Clark. And I've worked under both systems, both with a Clark and Without a Clark.

And there's definitely things to be said for both. A Clark, if you like. Evolves from an old fashioned butler type concept. He takes a certain percentage of your income and out of that, he then pays chambers expenses, but he also then allocates the work between the members of chambers.

Now I happen to think that there's an inherent conflict of interest there because the Clark then is basically deciding which of his stable of barristers gets any particular case. And how is he to decide which person he recommends to Colin Cohen? As best for that case be, and it does lead to resentment in chambers.

[00:58:47] Colin: Well, I can tell you artist to be very frank, a story about, I wanted to find out who are the good juniors in your chambers. So I spoke with William, he arranged a lunch or a gathering where we all went around when I brought my young solicitors and he brought the young members of chambers to ensure that we can generate work. 'Cause that's the only way you get to know who are the good people in the chambers and solicitors can then brief them occasionally or more than occasionally, quite a lot. So we, we did that. That seemed to work as well. I'm interested also about your involvement in the Hong Kong Bar Association.

Can you tell us a little bit about that early years you've been involved.

[00:59:21] John: Yeah, I've sat on the Bar Association over a number of years. I've been involved as chairman of Barrister's disciplinary committees on a number of occasions as well, and that's an important function. The bar for forms is to discipline its members in order to maintain public confidence in the bar.

And that's obviously an un-remunerated process, but a very important one. I sit on various subcommittees advising on law reform, including the one I've just mentioned on introducing a corporate restructuring bill

[00:59:52] Colin: And, and also you are a justice of the peace. What do you do as a justice of the peace?

[00:59:57] John: Yes. Well there's actually little justice administered by justices of the peace. This, again, is a very old fashioned British concept, but as it's evolved in Hong Kong, a justice of the peace is not a magistrate. That's a separate judicial role. The two things that I've been involved in is visiting prisons and visiting hospitals as part of an independent oversight role.

And visiting prisons is a very important part of allowing the prison community access to an independent monitor a type of ombudsman, I suppose. My last prison visit was by helicopter to Peng Chow where they have some of the lower risk prisoners there. They're typically women and people who are in the process of being extradited.

And it was very struck that how many drug traffickers were imprisoned there. And of course they don't speak any Chinese. One of the role of the JP there is to make sure they've got adequate resources to reading material, to legal advice and things like that.

So it's an important role that just is a check and balance on the discipline services.

[01:01:11] Colin: They speak out, and I understand from a last guest of mine said it is a little bit of reluctance for someone of them to put their hands up or did you have

[01:01:18] John: Yes.

[01:01:18] Colin: or could you go and ask them how they're getting on. 

[01:01:20] John: The regime is very strict and they're made to standard attention.

And they're asked collectively in front of all the others and in front of the prison wardens. Do they have any complaints? And one does sense perhaps that if they did. There would be repercussions, but I don't think that is the case. And I certainly have heard and I've experienced them speaking up and saying, yes, I've got X, Y, Z to mention.

And so we then adjourn into a private room and have the conversation about it, and I report back. So it does work as a means of feedback outside the other official channels

[01:01:57] Colin: That's good. I'm glad to hear that you know as well. One thing I'm interested in, John, is that you've been here so many years, you are very experienced. I noticed William and a lot of the other people in your chamber sit as deputy judges. I've never seen your name down as a deputy judge. Do you have any ambitions of going to the judiciary?

[01:02:15] John: Well, you've done your research going.

That's right. I mean, I've sat for a very long time as an arbitrator.

So I have sat in a judicial role, a private judicial role in that sense. But I've always thought being a judge is quite lonely. And I see myself as a team player. I like working with a team. I like working with solicitors, other barristers clients, witnesses on a case.

And I feel perhaps, misguidedly, but I feel that sitting there in justice alone. And watching the case evolve and develop before your eyes, but not being part of either team, I think I'd feel I'd miss out or from the active involvement of working on a case. 

[01:03:02] Colin: So no ambition. You've never wanted to, obviously you could have if you wanted to.

[01:03:06] John: Oh, I've been asked. Yes.

[01:03:07] Colin: You've been asked, I suspect many times, and which really takes us to one issue here. And I'm, I'm interested in what your views are. The legal system here in Hong Kong has got a very good reputation, but yet a lot of people are now saying to me that if we got a very big case going on, we did had something set down for a 15 day case, and it's not on until end of 26, early 27, and there's massive backlogs in the commercial, corporate area for judges in criminal, but many of the cases plead, but there's backlog for that, maybe for other reasons. And what's your view on that? I mean, have you heard that at all?

[01:03:48] John: Yes, I have. I sit on the executive committee of the International Chamber of Commerce. And one of the tasks I've been given is to look into delays in the civil justice system in Hong Kong. I'm just starting this process, and I'm taking soundings at the moment, but one of the frequent comments that we get from members of the International Chamber of Commerce, which were the banks, trading companies, some of the bigger international companies that are present in Hong Kong, is that they can't get a dispute resolved in any reasonable time or even a hearing.

And you're right, Colin, if you have an estimate of time of over 10 days. Very often you're looking at a date. Even if the case is ready for trial, all the witness statements finalized, pleadings it's all ready to go. Sometimes you won't get a hearing date for two years. Now why that is is a matter that I'm looking into together with my committee members.

I suspect it's because there aren't enough judges. There are a lot of deputy judges and recorders sitting. But typically they don't have listed before them, these longer type of cases. Because they are themselves temporary and deputy judges. And so we are very dependent on there not being enough judges sitting in the court of first instance to try these type of actions.

And that raises the bigger question is why are barristers not stepping forward to accept judicial appointments at the moment? You probably have your views on that like I do. 

[01:05:19] Colin: Yeah. Well, there's one view I have is that unless you are really told to do it, and there's a couple of people who I know became judges because if they were said Chief Justice, but someone, persuaded them. The rest of the time if you're doing a very, very big practice, you're not going to do that really. And also as I understand matters if you become a high court judge or even a district court judge, and that's even more difficult for a district court. You have to sign an agreement that you will not go back into private practice. You can become an arbitrator. You can become a mediator, for example, I do know this, mrs. Justice, BB Chu, she then has finished being a high court judge. She's now come to your chambers as a sort of mediator or independent adjudicator as well. That's the new concept as well. 'cause you can't go back to practice.

Same with Jeffrey Ma, who was on our pods and he made it clear that he can't go back, but he does lots of arbitrations as well. So that may be a reason, maybe not. I'm not sure. 

[01:06:17] John: Well the, the judicial appointments organization, I'm sure is looking at this very hard because they're conscious that they're not encouraging, the right people to accept judicial appointments, and that might be a matter, terms and conditions of service and persuading barristers to accept the role.

A lot of people, I know I said I didn't want to be a judge, but a lot of people look upon it as a great honor and it is a great honor. You don't get the knighthood that you do in the United Kingdom on the appointment to the high court bench. But you do get well looked after. In terms of remuneration, but on the, the other point you mentioned, Colin, whether or not you had to give an undertaking not to practice again, that's, that's an interesting point and that I've campaigned on this for some time actually, ever since the 1990s to meet this problem because a lot of barristers are concerned about accepting a digital appointment because it's an irreversible step once you have sat on the bench.

Joined the judiciary, you cannot then go back and practice as a barrister ever again. And if, like me, you enjoy very much being a barrister and you're a bit concerned, you might not enjoy being a high court judge for many reasons, then that would be a deterrent factor. Now in the United States, which perhaps isn't always the best model to copy, but in the United States, I do know that you can go back into private practice, having been a judge. There might be a period of isolation when you can't accept any briefs or appear before certain courts where you've been sitting. But I do think that consideration ought to be given to permitting judges after they've accepted an appointment to retire and then return after some sensible interval to the private part, because that would then take away that deterrent factor. Very important question I want to ask you, which has been worrying me for a very long time: What made you support Arsenal Football Club? You are a huge fan. 

[01:08:22] John: Yes. Well, we're both fans of London Football clubs. 

Some I'm are more successful than others. But the short answer is my grandfather who as I mentioned, was a doctor. Was the doctor, to two directors of Arsenal Football Club. And I remember being taken in a red Jaguar owned by one of these directors to an Arsenal football match when I was about seven.

And I must say, I think I was more impressed with the Jaguar than I was with the football. But of course after that I was a lifelong fan.

[01:08:51] Colin: And of course that's for our listen to be interested, that we did go to the FA Cup final in Cardiff, together with these very interesting friends of mine who how could I say? Sort of, down to Earth Real Arsenal support. It was Arsenal Southampton. I remember that. 

[01:09:05] John: That's right. And that was when Wembley was being rebuilt and we had to migrate to Cardiff.

[01:09:11] Colin: And we had to go all the way down and we'd up and come all the way back.

[01:09:13] John: One nil. 

[01:09:14] Colin: One nil. 

[01:09:15] John: To the Arsenal.

[01:09:16] Colin: To the Arsenal. I remember that as well. Just getting a little bit back more to the Law. I do know that you have been doing a little bit of family law recently and private family law.

Now that's a little bit unusual, how did that come about?

[01:09:27] John: Well, doing a lot of company law cases. You do a lot of looking at accounts and trusts and that sort of thing. And I was approached by David Glenn, who was then senior partner of Hampton Winter and Glen, on a rather complicated family case that involved company law and trusts and accounts and things.

And I was brought in to be Gilbert Robway's Junior.

[01:09:48] Colin: Well, Gilbert Robway was a very, very, very well known leading council, Silk, yes.

[01:09:53] John: And a specialist in the family law area. And he was constantly against Jackie Lung in all the big money cases. And so I think I got my break there. Helping Gilbert on the more technical company and financial side.

And David Glenn was good enough. And then. Robin Edgerton and other solicitors at that firm, and other firms then instructed me in other cases. But it is a different area of practice. It requires different skills, different sensitivities.

[01:10:22] Colin: Yeah, so that is totally different. Well, I mean, John, we've been here a long time. There's a big elephant in the room. Hong Kong has gone through his ups and downs and we've had all the troubles. And now with things are being fairly quiet and national security law. The future. How do you see Hong Kong?

We read the press, we read everything. Your take Hong Kong's your home. Correct? You're staying here.

So future of Hong Kong, what's your views on that? 

[01:10:49] John: I'm very positive about Hong Kong. I think the rule of law is one of Hong Kong's greatest strengths. And it provides certainty and predictability to the international community. That are here, including the international financial community, who we need to be here and to remain here. And I think obviously there are short term problems that some of which you've mentioned, but Hong Kong is enormously resilient.

When I think back to the late nineties, leading up to 1997, the uncertainty the doubts that everybody had about Hong Kong then and Hong Kong overcame those and prospered and thrived. In its geographic location with all its strengths, and we're already seeing Hong Kong bounce back. We look at the number of IPOs.

There's been this year Hong Kong is leading the world in the number and value of IPOs that are coming to the Hong Kong stock market. And that must, I think, be a leading indicator of good times ahead both financially and therefore legally. 

[01:11:46] Colin: And I think people also know that the arbitration center here is growing, although you've done cases in Singapore, but Hong Kong has a lot of cases coming into Hong Kong. As for the seat of the arbitration as well, I think there's huge for your particular area, particularly the arbitration area, where Hong Kong could even prosper even more

[01:12:04] John: Yes, that's possible.

There's a big lead time between parties to an agreement signing a contract containing an arbitration clause. And that arbitration clause actually being invoked and leading to an arbitration. I dunno what the figures are, but I suspect it's, it can vary between three to five years. So we're only going to know in a few years time how many people have chosen Hong Kong as a seat of arbitration in their arbitration clause, or Singapore, or one of the many other centers that exist.

But all the figures that I've seen suggest that Hong Kong will continue to thrive. As an arbitration center, not just as an arbitration center, but as a center for alternative dispute resolution of every type, including mediation and adjudication.

[01:12:46] Colin: And I do agree with you on that. Now you're very busy all the time. You leisure time in here? I do have firsthand experience that you do like hitting a golf ball around the courses. What else do you do?

[01:12:56] John: Golf. Yeah, I love my golf and I'm looking forward to playing with you again soon. Colin. I like my sailing. I'm going off to compete at cows week.

[01:13:03] Colin: Ah, Isle of Wight. Excellent. 

[01:13:05] John: And I've just taken up painting.

[01:13:08] Colin: That's interesting. Now, my daughter and my grandson go to art classes and I will send you their calendar, which we put every year together. Say what's that about? it's more therapy than art. I find it very relaxing. I'm completely self-taught, except for YouTube. 

Perhaps I should join your granddaughter,

[01:13:26] Colin: My grandson and, 

[01:13:27] John: grandson,

[01:13:27] Colin: My daughter, you know.

[01:13:28] John: and your daughter. Perhaps I should join them and I am looking forward to getting some lessons, but this is very much a work in progress.

[01:13:34] Colin: John, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More and enjoy your art, your golf, and of course your law. Thank you.

[01:13:44] John: Thank you.