Episode 56 - Judith Sihombing

In this episode, we meet notable academic and prolific author Judith Sihombing, who has been mentoring law students in Hong Kong for more than four decades. Judith looks back on her upbringing in rural Australia, early years in the legal profession, time spent teaching in Malaysia, and her distinguished career in Hong Kong. She speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

 00:38 Introduction and Guest Introduction
 01:49 Early Life and Education
 03:49 Legal Career Beginnings
 06:06 Academic Journey in Malaysia
 09:35 Transition to Hong Kong
 11:54 Contributions to Legal Education
 17:20 Establishing Sihombing Law Mentors
 24:23 Reflections and Future Outlook
 29:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts 

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter  

Established in 1985, Boase Cohen & Collins is an independent law firm equipped with Hong Kong knowledge and global reach. Please visit our website.

Transcript

[00:42:00] Colin: Hello everyone. My guest today is Judith Sihombing. Lawyer,

academic, past colleague of mine at Hong Kong U. Author and mentor, a lady who has been an integral part of the Hong Kong legal profession for many, many years. She has her own training company, Sihombing Law Mentors, and has conducted numerous workshops here at Boase Cohen and Collins, as well as many other law firms.

She has written numerous important legal textbooks and is an authority on the intricacies of landlord property and conveyancing. Judith, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast, and as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently? 

[00:42:44] Judith: Colin and I've been updating materials, which is a permanent job, don't like it, but it's permanent, has to be done. I'm doing a book on property which covers not land as I used to think of as property as we all used to think of, property. But looking also at the personal property elements choses in action, possession and the modern digital stuff.

And that's keeping me very busy at present.

[00:43:11] Colin: Great. Now before we delve into your distinguished legal career, let's go back in time to your upbringing, school days, Australia. And in particular, I'm interested in what got you into the law. So tell us a little bit about your background.

[00:43:25] Judith: Okay. I grew up in a small country town in eastern Victoria.

Very small. I rode a bicycle everywhere. I had a sister later on. I had a brother as well. We all had dogs, which is very common in an Australian country town. We had several dogs. I went to the local school and what it was called, the Bubs, which was the first grade you start out. No kindergarten in my day and not in an Australian country village, anyway. And then my sister was about to finish the local school, a primary school. So we were both sent to boarding school in the city, which was the biggest shock of my life. Did not like it one bit. I was used to going home every day after school. And then we came to live in the city. So I then went locally as a day scholar to school.

I had family in various aspects of the law, some in the police. I had a chief and superintendent as one of the paternal side. I had police on the other side. I had a judge on one side, so there's a mixed group of people from the paternal and maternal sides as well as a couple of cousins.

And I actually went to university with my cousin. He was a year older and we went together, we'd been together in the city. His brother and my sister were a year apart. I was a year apart from him. And so we were good friends for a long time and we went off to university together at

[00:44:58] Colin: That was in Melbourne

[00:44:59] Judith: Melbourne University, which was at the time the third best Common Law University in the Universe. According to what we were told. I think it was. It was a really good University. 

[00:45:11] Colin: So you did your law degree?

[00:45:13] Judith: Yes.

[00:45:13] Colin: And then you decided to go into practice.

[00:45:15] Judith: I did go in, I did my training. I went into practice and I did because I was a female person in those days. I was given Conveyancing. Which I didn't mind, I liked it. And of course, the one I didn't like, family law because nobody else would touch it. And I did everybody's wills and I also did all of the draggy stuff.

[00:45:36] Colin: So the early days, just again, for our listeners in Melbourne, it's barrister and solicitor.

It 

[00:45:41] Judith: was separate, yes.

[00:45:42] Colin: Was it separate and you were a... 

[00:45:44] Judith: We graduated as both. But we must make a decision. And so the Law Society, of course, is with the Solicitors Bar Council for Barristers.

And luckily at university, we had an odd group. We had about 150, what were called men in those days. And we had about 25 girls. We were never called ladies or women or anything. So it was a strange university with this predominance of men in the faculty, and that was very similar to what practice was like in the early days.

Many more men than women in practice. 

[00:46:19] Colin: Enjoy practice? In the early days in Melbourne. 

[00:46:21] Judith: I did actually, I liked property very much and I think the other thing was with the small group of girls in the faculty, we all had very similar backgrounds. We'd been to similar types of schools. I'm still friends with the girls that are still alive.

We are still friends. Yeah, and I don't think that will ever differ. We email a lot. We know all of their families, they know our families. And I think also it helped that the parents knew the parents in certain areas of social life and what have you, and that's something that's a bit like family.

And you kept that going. And I went down last year to visit a friend who's now living in the Gold Coast that we were at university together. It seems like a hundred years. It almost is. But we've retained the friendships.

[00:47:11] Colin: That's very, very important to retain friendships as well. 

[00:47:12] Judith: I think it is. And, and the other thing, Colin, when you find out what they're doing in the Law, it gives you an interest to try and, well, what are the developments in my area and their area and so on.

[00:47:25] Colin: So, you were in Melbourne

[00:47:27] Judith: Yeah.

[00:47:28] Colin: And you were doing your practice and then you go off to I understand Malaysia.

How did that come about?

[00:47:34] Judith: Well, just before I decided I did have a short holiday in Indonesia for six months. Doing law at Melbourne, you had to do two additional non-law subjects and I did ancient history 'cause I loved history and Indonesian.

So I thought I'd go and practice a bit. Came back to Melbourne and then I thought I'm a bit tired of drafting wills and I'm very tired of dealing with family law and I think I'll change. So a friend who was an academic by then we discussed it and I was introduced to the dean and I started off as a tutor at Monash University and then went off to Malaysia.

Totally different. Monash has at least a hundred academics, if not more. Main building with the inside the library goes four stories up and very, very traditional. So I went off to Malaysia and the Malaysian law school was coming up from Singapore. Remember Malaysia and Singapore had been joined together, confederation had happened.

I was in Indonesia during confederation when everybody hated everybody else. And then they decided to split off and the law school went up to Malaysia. So I went to the beginning really, of the law school. It was really nice beginning because

[00:48:55] Colin: How were you recruited?

[00:48:56] Judith: I was recruited through one of the deans in Australia who'd been asked find people.

So off I go off to Malaysia and I thought I'll be okay in Malaysia. And it was a delight. We had a small campus, a small faculty. The campus was beautiful, very large. And all around the edge of the campus were various buildings for different things, plus school student housing.

Inside there sort of goes down to the depth. Beautiful building, beautiful campus. And the faculty, we had about 60 students, which was quite a lot, but they were in two groups. One was the English group and the other was Malay group. 

 Of 

[00:49:40] Colin: course you were teaching

[00:49:40] Judith: We had to teach? No, both. I had to teach in Malay and in English 

[00:49:44] Colin: so you you learned Malay. Oh,

[00:49:46] Judith: Well, I spoke Indonesian.

[00:49:48] Colin: Ah.

[00:49:48] Judith: And Indonesian is passive, but Malay is active and when you get your vocabulary, it's no different. So I had a group of six students who spoke no English, only Malay, and they were delightful group from way up north near the border with Thailand. 

[00:50:06] Colin: And what subject were you teaching in...

[00:50:08] Judith: I taught contract and property of course, and sometimes legal history depending.

The dean was a great legal historian, so if he was on travels, I'd take over the classes and I also taught equity, which is very strange concept in a Muslim University to teach equity. Exactly the same concepts that we've got in equity. They're just called something different. So it was an interesting area and we had on the faculty, two language teachers.

The National Land Council sent an English teacher and a Malay teacher, so the English stream had to do Malay and the Malay Stream had to do English classes. And it was a very joyful faculty there. It was a great place. 

[00:50:53] Colin: So you spent some time there, but then you found your way to Hong Kong. Now. How did that come about... 

[00:50:58] Judith: Well, I went back to Australia. My mother was very ill and I thought my daughter was quite young and that it would be better for my mother to see a bit of her granddaughter. I hadn't made an application to Hong Kong before, but my mother became gravely ill, so I had to stop that and then I reapplied.

Not that they didn't want you. Once you've turned them down, they won't take you. So up I came and it was a bit of a surprise to come. I knew nothing about Hong Kong 

[00:51:26] Colin: Now, remind me of the date when you first came.

[00:51:28] Judith: I came in 1982. When did you join the faculty?

[00:51:32] Colin: There we are, 82 as well.

We both, well, I was in the PCLL,

[00:51:37] Judith: And Michael Lesnick joined in the same year as well.

[00:51:40] Colin: Yeah. And actually you may have read in the latest news, he's been given a medal of honor. 

[00:51:44] Judith: Oh, lovely.

[00:51:45] Colin: Yeah. So I got one as well for, I think it must be for some of his work, his tax work as well. Anyway, so you arrive in Hong Kong U. And obviously, like everybody, you had your accommodation and as well, and and you started doing it

[00:51:59] Judith: Next day.

[00:52:00] Colin: But you were in the faculty... 

[00:52:02] Judith: Of law.

Law, yeah. And department of law. 

Yeah. So we, we were the sort of the basic law stuff. The common law stuff and the equity and so on.

And I started teaching personal property. Which was never a subject that had been taught to me as a subject, never a subject taught in the Australian universities. And then all of a sudden here's personal property, shows in action, shows in possession. Really interesting stuff. But not, not property per se.

And then I did contract as well, and they were great years. The early...

[00:52:36] Colin: You enjoyed yourself in the early days. Well, the dean was Dafydd Evans

[00:52:40] Judith: He was.

[00:52:40] Colin: started off

[00:52:41] Judith: Yeah, and it was a very happy group, and the students were great.

[00:52:46] Colin: I think in the early days there when I was teaching a number of students, it was in the hundreds, 18-19 Hundred because PCLL was 

[00:52:53] Judith: 18,19. 

[00:52:54] Colin: So that must've been a similar sort of,

[00:52:56] Judith: Yeah, they were sort of last year's graduates from the faculty of law and we did tutorials, which are not done anywhere anymore. And we also did a bit of legal history, which is not done anywhere anymore, which is a great shame, I think, not to have legal history 

[00:53:13] Colin: And of course part of the duties of a law lecturer. I mean for me I was in the PCLL, so I did not have to, we were different in that we did not have to do research and write a lot. 'Cause we were teaching the practice courses and the rest, but you had to write your books, your articles, and all the rest as well.

So, yeah. But you're a prolific writer,

[00:53:31] Judith: Well we were always told in University as an academic it's 'publish or perish'.

And not that it's gonna help you if you don't want to write, but I always found interesting areas which were very easy to go and do a bit of research, write it up, because you're going to be teaching that area in or had already come into the class. It wasn't a difficulty. I am surprised I did write. My English is not great, I'm an Australian, so it's not the best in the Universe.

[00:54:01] Colin: No, no, I disagree. I disagree with you about that.

[00:54:05] Judith: Well, anyway I did get off that way. And I had done quite a lot of writing at Monash for CCH on property. 

[00:54:14] Colin: CCH is a 

[00:54:15] Judith: big 

[00:54:15] Colin: publishing company. 

[00:54:16] Judith: It is, but it's now Wolters Kluwer. It's taken over by Wolters Kluwer.

Yeah. And I also did family law and we had at Monash, we had a great conference on family law. We changed from fault liability to no-fault liability as everybody else did. And so I edited that, but I also edited with the Chief Judge of the Family Law Court of Australia, a series of books for Law Asia on Family Law in Law Asia.

[00:54:46] Colin: so you continue that in Hong Kong... 

[00:54:48] Judith: I haven't, no, no.

[00:54:50] Colin: No, you didn't do that.

[00:54:50] Judith: No connection with Law Asia here at all. In Malaysia some connection, but here it seems to be quite an alien thing, Law Asia. It sort of didn't have the same push as it had, particularly in Australia at the end of the world. So anything that brings you into the other things is good.

And we edited the series of books from all of the countries. And I did also then a book on family law and a series of papers I edited and so on. 

[00:55:20] Colin: Whilst you were at Hong Kong U. A lot of us were practicing.

Yeah, well, I actually, I came as a solicitor and I went to Hong Kong, but a lot of other people were practicing as Barristers or Solicitors. Did you ever

[00:55:31] Judith: Didn't see 'em 

[00:55:32] Colin: Yeah. Did you do any practice? Did you ever think about it getting admitted here?

[00:55:36] Judith: No, I didn't. I should have but I didn't. I did teach in the PCLL. Yes. Which should have given me the right to, but apparently it was not discussed. I could have done that, but I was happy being an academic, I think. And I'm still happy not having gone into practice here. I do a lot of seminars, and that keeps you up to date with the areas of developments in the Law.

[00:55:59] Colin: Putting a little bit on the table and don't like doing that. When you're at Hong Kong U. Is there anything you stands out where you felt, I contributed, there's something there, something special that you really enjoyed at the Kong, U your time there, apart from obviously teaching very nice people. 

[00:56:14] Judith: I did do one entire summer break as head of the admissions committee. In the old days when they had to do an exam, we had to interview everybody. We had to go through it. I also. Arranged for a language teacher. At one stage, somebody was standing for an election for something, and I suggested we do the same as we'd done in Malaysia, having a language teacher, Chinese-English, English-Chinese. And that that came in and we had links with the faculty of Arts, I think with languages.

I'm not sure what else I did. I did teach gallons of students. At one time I had to do um, paper and I did supervise. I did the examine a lot of those. I think I just did my Job. 

[00:57:02] Colin: Yeah. We were all very, collegiate. And of course I left in 1988, I decided that I was doing too much practice and I felt it was the right thing to do, and I went down and set up the law firm.

It was set up a little bit before then. And now let's sort of go on a little bit. Circumstances for you leaving Hong Kong, you then establishing your own business. You worked in another law firm and you started your own business.

[00:57:23] Judith: I did go into a law firm as PSL Professional support or, yeah, which was much the same as I was doing in the faculty.

I did in-house seminars and I'd be given a file, what's this all about? Drafting and so on, which was interesting. I didn't get a feel of, wow, this is what I want to keep doing forevermore. I was happy to do what I was doing, but it wasn't the peak of anything. And I then went of course to Chinese U part-time, which was a different atmosphere completely from Hong Kong U.

[00:57:59] Colin: Well, well, Peter Rose did that as well. 

[00:58:02] Judith: And Peter finished just this last month, yes.

[00:58:05] Colin: So how much time did you spend at as part time. 

[00:58:06] Judith: I, did part-time, but I did PCLL, I did conveyancing. I did something or other else, and I was in different streams of things, but I was very lucky it was all taught at, of America 

[00:58:19] Colin: America, that's very very convenient. 

[00:58:21] Judith: Because I'm no good traveling almost to the edge of the world.

So I'd pop down the hill and pop up the hill and that was it. I enjoyed that. And I only finished that last year when I was doing remedies at the end. Now nobody teaches remedies as I understand it, except me in Hong Kong. It's never been taught.

[00:58:41] Colin: Very interesting. Now you set up Sihombing Law Mentors. Tell us a little bit about that and the rationale and why you set that up.

[00:58:48] Judith: Well, it's just another extension of seminars and things. It makes it a little bit more formal and I can send it off to the tax accountant and he can take care of those things. I have also done quite a lot of, consultancy on different areas, sometimes overseas. I have done an international arbitration at one stage on material, not from here, but elsewhere.

And that's as far as one can say and bits and pieces that I do, quite a lot of consultancy on. Matters that relate more to development of the law. As you would know Colin contract that we knew and we taught is gone. It's not there anymore, and equity's taken over the entire shebang as it were. And so that's the side that anything that's not sort of updating my materials goes to the Sihombing Law Mentors.

[00:59:42] Colin: Yeah, so the one other thing I can tell our listeners what you do do, and you did a great job for us. You have really, assisted everyone in continuing professional development sessions, the CPD where everyone has to get our points. And you have done, believe it or not, over 11 sessions with our firm over the years. And ranging from Competition Law, Enforcement of Regulatory Liability, Damages, Demise of Damages, and just for our firm.

So I presume you are a great contributor to ensure that we are kept up to date. You didn't only do it for our law firm. I think you've been doing one even recently as well.

[01:00:24] Judith: I do about 12 or 14 for Law Society each year. I've done six, seven so far. I've got one next week on the areas such as misbehaving directors.

Dishonest assistance, this area, which we'd not heard of years ago, but these are the modern areas particularly I would've thought the trainees needed. But when you look at the list of people, PQE, people in excess of six years are usually the larger number of the seminars.

And I do for a couple of commercial providers as well. I enjoy them. And I always changed last year's seminar, so they're brand new for the new. Because of developments, you cannot use the same stuff. It's changing so much. And I think that's what makes it interesting that, so that I don't need to fill in a gap of interest by going into practice, other developments in the law.

Keeping up is really exciting. I must admit. 

[01:01:23] Colin: This is so interesting 'cause I'm a great fan of CPD, the continuing professional development. But a lot of people take it as a horrible chore. They gotta get their points. They go along, they do it online, and they are on it, multitasking, doing all their other work online.

So when you came here, we made everyone in the room here. Where we are doing the podcast and then you would talk for an hour and a half and then interaction and making sure, asking questions and I would sort of chip in and tell, now look at this point, what about that point as well. Now the Law Society is an organization very close to your heart.

You've been involved in for many years as well. 

[01:02:00] Judith: 29 years on the land titles working committee. 

We started about 30 and we got down, down, down very quickly. We ended up with about six, and at the end of the days we were down. To two people and so our meetings were then coffee.

[01:02:23] Colin: Now that it's a very interesting thing area, which it's always intrigued me in advising clients. Conveyancing in Hong Kong compared to in Australia and in the 

[01:02:33] Judith: UK. 

Night and Day.

[01:02:34] Colin: Exactly, and to help our listeners is we do not have registered title here. In short, what we have... 

registration of title.

Registration of title. So in the UK it's all pretty simple, very straightforward. And the title is, is, 

[01:02:50] Judith: registered, easy. 

 But not as good as Australian stuff, which is based on the Torrens system, which has its own history. Torrens was a member of the South Australian Legislature in the early 1860s. He wasn't a lawyer and he wanted to invest, leave his name forevermore sort of thing.

His secretary was a Northern German lawyer, Hans Luck, he was German lawyer and he wrote the Torrens system based on the Hanseatic merchant code of the 14th century for Northern German townships.

[01:03:32] Colin: So it's pretty easy for everyone to say, I want to buy your piece of land. Yes, register search,

go 

[01:03:37] Judith: and search. See who's got the title, and...

[01:03:41] Colin: Very very easy. But here in Hong Kong. Just for our listeners, what we have to do here, it's going back to prove the title and that you're going back from all the leases and to show everything of all the assignments as well, but there is some light at the end of that tunnel, I understand that there is Legislation. 

[01:03:59] Judith: ah, but that's only for new land grants at present. Which is recent, alienation not the one with all of the problems.

I think when they see how easy it is, how you can then have electronic registration as Torrens is, there's not a title to be seen.

And Torrens was so perfect in my state, Victoria, that they had to end the system and start a new one because they had so much money from fees for payment for everything. They'd never paid out a cent. $5 I think they'd paid out in 150 years. It's a perfect system.

[01:04:36] Colin: Well, I realize I bought property in the Gold Coast, which so easy to do, and fortunately I got some properties here.

I got one property, which is in Shau Kei Wan, whereby we have 30 boxes. 

'Cause it was Sun Hung Kai bought up a series of the old and 30 boxes, which you got to pay for all the little titles to it, combines it into one title where the flats are there. This is Line gala. Amazing that all that and 

[01:05:05] Judith: it's

Well it is and, and, and the amount of work and the worry that we can't find the documents of title. They have changed something in just at the end of last year where if your 50 years is up for the leasehold used to have to apply for a new lease and on and on it when now it's automatic.

If you don't want to extend, you tell them and that's it. And they publish a list a year ahead of the property that's coming up for renewal in the Gazette and it's there. Your lands. Yeah. It's okay. You don't pay for it. You do pay 3% of annual rates and there's no premium to be paid.

[01:05:45] Colin: Exactly. Now, this year, the Law Society had its annual general meeting, and you were made an honorary life member of the Law Society.

A proud moment for you, Judith.

[01:05:55] Judith: I was really stunned, to be honest. I almost couldn't quite believe what it was. It was an incredibly kind thing to do. I dunno who put my name forward or what have you.

But it made me feel as if all of the years I've been going and doing pro bono stuff, it's finally recognized as it were. And that's all we ever want to be recognized. We don't need, you know. Great...

[01:06:21] Colin: well, just, just to help our, our listeners, the President of the Law Society Rhoden Tong, a good friend of mine, gave a speech and he said the award was in recognition of your distinguished services to The Law Society, the development of a legal profession and the practice of law in Hong Kong.

And he dedicated your life really to teaching and to nurturing future lawyers. And you have published extensively on commercial property and law. And believe it or not, no one likes this sort property law. It's rather dry subject, but you've made it into a very interesting subject. 

[01:06:55] Judith: But I also still do the Malaysian National Land Code, which is 400 and 49 sections. Just six months ago updated that and that's tolerance, but it's a lot of customary law and a few twists and turns as you go. It's good stuff. I like reading murder books and properties almost as good as a good murder book. It's sustaining.

[01:07:20] Colin: And also, I know your daughter quite well, I remember her when she was very young here in Hong Kong, but now she's a well-known mediator in Hong Kong for dispute resolution matters. Must be very proud of her, what she's doing. 

[01:07:31] Judith: I'm indeed. She was in practice, for a year on one year on one matter litigation. At the end of that, she then joined, one of the finance companies and she did derivatives and what have you. And then one day she said, I'm off to America. I'm going to do mediation. And she went to Pepperdine University.

And yes, she enjoys it immensely. She travels a lot with it. She's an international examiner for mediation, Moots. And she's been to Venice and Paris and London and where have you.

And she's off to Sri Lanka to teach next week.

[01:08:08] Colin: Fantastic. Now, you've lived in Hong Kong for many years. You've seen the good, the difficult times, optimistic for the future. Your home here?

[01:08:17] Judith: I think I am Colin. And I don't have any at present, apart from I wish I had millions of dollars, which we all wish.

I find it an easy place to live, to be honest. And I don't go off the island very much. I don't have any needs to go anywhere else. I'm happy in the island. I know where I am. I'm the edge of a country park in Pok Fu Lam. I'm in university housing, it's a bit old, but it's okay LA and I can see the sea and I can see the trees.

The trees in Hong Kong are wonderful. I don't know any place with such a collection of trees and I find that it's not difficult for me to live here. I think things that would worry one are, have you got a good doctor? Have you got a good dentist? Do you know where to go for this? And so on. I go to the bank, they help me with everything because I'm stupid with computers.

[01:09:11] Colin: Well, I think you're better when you think you are.

[01:09:13] Judith: I don't think, but, so the things that you need to live happily and comfortably, I can find all here.

[01:09:21] Colin: That's great. Now, the young lawyers you mentor today, how do you think they are? The youngsters now are really, really good. 

[01:09:28] Judith: Except I wish that in the recent batches of students, they would read more. 

[01:09:35] Colin: They do read, but online, we don't read.

[01:09:37] Judith: Yeah, but they don't...

[01:09:39] Colin: read the books.

[01:09:40] Judith: Yeah. And they don't then follow up the interesting why is it now different and so on. I think in my day, because we'd come in from school where we had very strict teachers usually and at my school the Hero was St. Thomas Aquinas. So how could you not love equity after that? Exactly. But nowadays it's my position, my money, I'm this and this. And they don't have, I think the love that we used to have to learn.

[01:10:11] Colin: I think time times have changed, but they are very bright. 

[01:10:14] Judith: They are bright. But in a burning that I want to know what it's all about and why that I think most of our colleagues would've had as students.

[01:10:24] Colin: I do agree with you that I think that's a very good point. 'cause I always, when I interview, I always say, what are you reading at the moment?

We have difficulties answering that question.

It's something online and all the rest. Judith, it's been a privilege having you on Law & More. Chatting to you was great. Thank you so much and looking forward to you giving more presentations and more education to all of us in Hong Kong. Thanks for joining us.

[01:10:47] Judith: Thank you, Colin, for having me to, inviting me along. It was just a nice chat as if we were sitting in the common room and talking. So thank you. 

[01:10:56] Colin: So much and it brings back great memories for me. Thanks 

[01:10:59] Judith: Yeah. Thank you, 

[01:11:00] Colin: Thank 

[01:11:00] Judith: Thank you.