Episode 57 - Chandran Nair

In this episode, we discuss sustainability, East-West geopolitics and rule of law with Chandran Nair. Founder and CEO of the Global Institute For Tomorrow think tank, Chandran offers a unique insight into Asia’s growing influence on the world stage and why the continent must forge a different development path to that trodden by the US and Europe. He covers all this, plus his new book about China, in conversation with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

00:55 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:34 Chandran Nair's Recent Activities
03:07 Early Life and Education
04:33 Career Beginnings and Move to Hong Kong
07:58 Sustainability and Global Warming
14:46 The Role of Think Tanks
21:07 Rule of Law in Hong Kong
26:16 Chandran Nair's Writing and New Book
31:47 Future of Hong Kong and Final Thoughts

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter 

Established in 1985, Boase Cohen & Collins is an independent law firm equipped with Hong Kong knowledge and global reach. Please visit our website.

Transcript

[00:55:00] Colin: Hello everyone. My guest today is Chandran Nair, a world renowned authority on the topics of sustainable development. Environmental leadership and social equity.

Chandran is the founder and CEO of the Global Institute for Tomorrow, an independent Pan-Asian think tank based here in Hong Kong, and Kuala Lumper. Focused on advancing a deeper understanding of global issues, including the shift of economic and political influence from the west to Asia.

He's also a successful businessman, prolific writer. Renowned academic and has just published a new book. Chandran, thank you so much for joining us today and to begin our little chat, I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently? 

[00:55:49] Chandran: Well, firstly, Colin, thank you for having, me. It's a great pleasure to be here. Especially in Hong Kong, on this kind of wet day, what's been keeping me busy. Several things, but mainly trying to stay out of trouble. And that means, immersing myself in work, but also having fun. The work has mainly been on some major work we're doing for large oil and gas companies, banks, et cetera. On transformation, purpose, et cetera. At the same time writing. I just finished in the last few weeks the final edits of my book about understanding China. And I think importantly some of the work we're doing for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs with the Chinese government. We have a global virtual conferences this Friday on geopolitics. And finally, I would say I was very pleased. About a month and a half ago, we did the world's first conference, virtual conference. On debunking the whole climate change, debate with regard to the role of the military emissions and some work has now proven that the military emissions are massive.

So that's kind of what I do and I keep myself busy with.

[00:56:58] Colin: That's very, very exciting that we've got lots of material, which we can chat about.

[00:57:02] Chandran: And planting trees by the way, in my hometown in Malaysia.

[00:57:05] Colin: Fantastic. Well, we'll come back to that 'cause I'm very interested in planting trees, 'cause I've had some experience of that through another friend of mine. Let's go back a bit in time.

Tell us a little bit about your childhood, university, background. How you, your upbringing, et cetera, which brings you into Hong Kong, how you got here as well. 

[00:57:24] Chandran: Yeah. I'll try and keep it short. Born in Malaysia. My parents were migrants from India. Came before the second World War. They lived through the Japanese occupation. I studied in Malaysia, my A Levels, et cetera. I went to a missionary school. That's a story in itself. And then I left for the UK to do my degree in biochemical engineering.

[00:57:48] Colin: What made you do that?

Was that something you were told to do or is it something that you wanted to do?

[00:57:52] Chandran: Interestingly enough I was very immersed in sport. I played for the Malaysian under 21s when I was 19. Hockey. Malaysia's pretty highly ranked at that time, I think top five in the world. And I was not very good at my studies, all the rote learning I was not very good at, so I couldn't get into the good universities at home. So. I had to go to the uk, borrowed money.

[00:58:18] Colin: Which university did you go to?

[00:58:20] Chandran: I went to Reading University, but the campus was actually in Weybridge, surrey, 

[00:58:24] Colin: Yes, I know that. 

[00:58:25] Chandran: Rather posh place. And so, the first time I'd been on an airplane. And it was an interesting experience and I worked in London for about two and a half years and then, maybe we'll get into it, I felt disillusioned.

 I was doing research on pure water systems and all of that, and I felt it at no bearing to the world at large, and that's where my interest in development work started. And I went to Africa and did water supply, sanitation, healthcare for about five years for a international voluntary agency.

[00:58:57] Colin: So where were you in Africa?

[00:58:58] Chandran: I was also driven to go to Africa because I was very involved in the anti-apartheid movement in the UK at that time. So I wanted to be close to the action to really understand as the Malaysian, with the Malaysian passport. I couldn't go to South Africa. Malaysia's one of the few countries that didn't recognize Apartheid South Africa. And so the closest place I could get to was Swaziland which is next door. Almost a protectorate of apartheid South Africa at that time.

[00:59:27] Colin: And after that, after South Africa, did you come to Hong Kong just then, or... 

[00:59:31] Chandran: Yeah, I stayed there for four or five years. I also got involved in a music band. That's also something we could maybe discuss. I wanted to get back closer to Asia because I'd been away for about 10 years. I felt I needed a further degree. I got to a place at the Asian Institute of Technology. Which was in Bangkok. I studied there for about a year and a bit, and then I worked in Bangkok for about two and a half years before I was headhunted to come and join a very small consulting firm in Hong Kong at that called ERM. And two years later, as it is with things in Life. A lot of good luck and a bit of hard work. I got to be made the managing director, and then I grew that company to about 600 people, 20 offices across Asia Pacific, and was the chairman for about 10 years.

[01:00:21] Colin: And when was that? When did you arrive in Hong Kong?

[01:00:23] Chandran: I arrived in Hong Kong in 1990.

[01:00:25] Colin: Right. So yeah. That's interesting. Very interesting 

[01:00:28] Chandran: Yes, when all the infrastructure, what was called the pads projects were all taking off the new airport plants and all that. So it was exciting period and China was just opening up as well. And I was very fortunate that I till today, that I opened the first environmental, international Environmental and sustainability consulting firm in China in about 1994.

Good. 

[01:00:49] Colin: So I mean, you established a think tank, which we will come to, but your early days in Hong Kong, your real interest, your dealings with the people here, the pre handover, your thoughts, your experiences. You enjoyed yourself? 

[01:01:03] Chandran: I was thrilled to be in Hong Kong? I mean, I'd just come from Africa, so going to different places. Was not something I was unused to. So I had been through very different experiences. What some would term hardship postings in Africa. But I was a volunteer and I lived on a stipend, I think it was a hundred US dollars a month. But the work was exciting.

So coming to Hong Kong was in fact for me a huge leap from Africa. I went to Thailand. And then I came to Hong Kong and I remember coming to the interviews in Hong Kong and seeing all the high rise buildings and thinking, there's no way I'm gonna live in a little cubicle in this city. So actually, I refused the first offer from the firm, which is a international but London-based firm.

I refused, and then they came back to me a year later, and then I accepted the offer. Because I enjoyed Hong Kong a great deal, and to this day, I'm very loyal and thankful for what Hong Kong had to offer me.

[01:02:03] Colin: So let's discuss some of the major issues that are central to your career. and the first one, which I've looked at is sustainability. I think that was common ground. So that is very, very important. And especially you are on record saying our world is slowly and surely boiling. And we've got global warming issues. Can you expand on that? I mean, a lot of people have turned the blind eye to that and with the new regime in the US they say it just doesn't exist. But look at what's happening. The heat in Europe, the cold in the winter, help us out on that.

[01:02:37] Chandran: Well, it's a very good question. It requires quite a long answer, particularly given my perhaps being too close to the coal phase over 35 years. But I would broadly say that the dumbing down has been going on for a long, long time. And so the signs has been relegated to where it is today, where there's actually denial of the signs. 

I think the worst thing we can do is to listen to politicians. But the politicians do have the megaphones. They do have the media, but the media is as well, in my view, hugely to blame. But one thing which I describe in the understanding of sustainability is perhaps best explained in my my second book, the Sustainable State. I think sustainability means very different things, and it's all about political objectives. Thus, the pushback in the United States is essentially the political objectives. And the inability to come to terms with the new world and the geopolitics of sustainability as well. Thus, the current administration is pushing back and hoping to retain what it understands as its hegemony.

And lots of people don't understand how economics and sustainability are all intertwined, but I don't want to digress other than to say that human beings are terribly inept at understanding slow change. We are in the midst of slow change, but we have also normalized and we are very good at normalizing harm. And that's kind of what's happened. And finally, I would say, I described this in the book, there's a great deal of difference between sustainability and environmental controls. Environmental controls, you're typically talking about abating, pollution, et cetera. Sustainability is much more profound discussion. 

For instance, is car ownership a human right? I would argue it isn't. So then you have political imperatives that have to take place. But you and I know that we need more cars in the majority of cities in the world, particularly the crowded cities in Asia, Africa, et cetera. Like I need a hole in my head. And then there is this simplistic idea that ev cars are the solution. They're not. So there's very poor understanding. It's a good question. I don't wanna take too much time, but politicians have also been captured by the corporate interests and the dumbing down in the media that they all hanker after. Easy Green solutions and all the terminology has become so corrupted, but the reality is what you just described, everything, if you look at the science is going in the wrong direction.

[01:05:17] Colin: So if you were, let's say, the sustainability minister or had a portfolio like Ed Miller Brand in the Labor Party in the UK who has a ministry, what policies would you say as a matter of urgency that you would put in place, how would you go about this very difficult task, the practical solution to it?

[01:05:41] Chandran: The first thing you will have to do is change the narrative. And this is where I start. It's not a simple policy switch. You have to first change the narrative so people understand why we are in this predicament. In my book, I talk about the need for a new narrative.

The narrative's not very difficult, but very few politicians in the West have been prepared to talk about the narrative shift. Simply things like, our freedom's not unfettered, which politician's gonna say this, right, in the West. So our freedoms are not unfettered, therefore you do not have a right to three cars. You do not have rights to this and that and that. And then you bring in measures, which are typically both, I argue, both economic measures, putting a price for consumption, which is my first book. So you have to start pricing consumption. Our entire economic model is premised on underpricing consumption. 

 Buy things you don't eat with money you don't have. Right. And if you're middle class to impress people you don't like.

 But the premise in Hong Kong, we all complain about the fact that it's too cold in indoor. Right. And that's because energy is underpriced. So energy is underpriced.

Everything is under priced. So you have to start taking the price up to pay for the externalities, which is the sustainability, environmental issues, and politicians are unwilling. So you have to start with the narrative.

And I will say, that and I'm not here to just bat for China or anything because I live in Hong Kong.

But president Xi about three years ago, essentially is the only world leader I know. Who said to everyone, and particularly the leaders and the provincial leaders, there is a red line. You can't cross and dare not cross that red line. Even for economic gains. Now what he, and as you know better than I do, probably about China.

The Chinese president doesn't say things offhand like the British Prime Minister or the current US president, just willy nilly anything. I mean, this has been taught through. What was the message? The message was to all the provincial governance. We have now got a new paradigm of the eco civilization. It's gonna be very tough because we are a nation with 1.4 billion. A lot of people, basically out of poverty, but still living on the margins. But we are not going to be able to survive if we start to essentially adopt an economic model that is premised on destruction of natural support systems. He's the only one who's ever said that. And then the narrative in the west typically is about economic instruments and things like that.

Which do not in any way deconstruct. The political and economic models that got us to where we are. So you have hocus pocus things like net zero, which is unscientific completely unattainable, but said and devised by so-called think tanks and consultants in the west

So that you can create a trading scheme and all of those things which enable lots of people to make money, but actually don't move the dial. 

[01:08:51] Colin: So your think tank, which you have here in Hong Kong, tell us a little bit about that, and do you do anything with your think tank to bring Xi's ideology or and views into the public arena, maybe here in Hong Kong or elsewhere?

[01:09:07] Chandran: Right, so the thing I say, as I said, I ran Asia's largest consulting firm at a time that very few existed.

So I said 22 offices, 12 countries. And in about 2004, 2005, I got bored. Partly because, well, I got bored with the intellectual dishonesty at the heart of corporate consulting. Secondly, intellectually I'd moved on to the premise of understanding that consumption was the major issue, 

And thirdly, you can't take ideas about sustainability, which were being fashioned in the west. By so-called leaders and think tanks and then voice them on the rest of the world. I understand there was this complete disconnect and there was a political agenda around sustainability and all the ESGS hocus pocus that was being put across the world.

So I decided to leave my consulting business. I cashed out and create a think tank for two reasons.

The first reason was, and now it's all playing out my view that the western world would not be able to contend with the transfer of economic power from the west to the east. And it would create a lot of disruptions. I could see this happening 20 years ago. Today is out of full display, the Americans being the worst, but the European Union and all of them hoping that Uncle Sam will continue to help them to extend the period of hegemony.

The first one. The second was that, the existential threats. Given my science and engineering background and my immersion in environmental issues, particularly in Asia, I was very clear that the existential threats would accelerate and many more would essentially come to the surface. That has essentially also come. So the think tank was created on the basis that, the danger is that we are aping and following ideas that are being incubated, baked, and sold to us from somewhere in the United States or somewhere in Europe, completely suited to our needs. And we need A new way of thinking that's why I created the the think tank.

As a single Asian think tank, as far as I know at that point, and even today, if I may humbly say, Fundamentally questions this premise that the idea is emanating out of the West, and this is not an anti-Western discussion, but they are outdated. They belong to the 20th century. The 21st century will be defined by what we in this part of the world think. Not because we are smarter or whatever, but because we have no choice. And I've said this many times, 6 billion Asians in around 2060, aspiring to live like Europeans and Americans and being told they can is a lie. This cannot happen. And if they get onto this trajectory, they will destroy the world. Who cares what happens in Sweden or who cares what even happens in Canada. It will not change the world. But here we make those choices. Aping an economic model, which is extractive, exploitative, and externalizes costs. We will destroy the world.

[01:12:23] Colin: That's all very interesting, Gimme an example of what your think tank is doing right now. Your latest project?

[01:12:28] Chandran: So the first point is we underestimate the need for new thinking. We do not have any scripts in this part of the world or in the Middle East about these issues, apart from what we borrowed from the west. So we need to have new thinking. So the most important thing we try and do, and we have, I would humbly say, have had success. 

My first book on consumption and what my think tank talks about the word consumption and the pricing of externalities has entered the mainstream of thinking even in other parts of the world. But it's so politically incorrect, for instance, in the United States to even talk about consumption, even if you come from the liberal sustainability mainstream. So the first thing we've done is help change the narrative, and create a voice. 

And that is so important because, if you can get MBA schools from the United States, from Ohio and other godforsaken places to export the idea of, financial engineering and all of that stuff, and in fact the world over 20 year period, I believe we have to bring a narrative.

So what I do then is what we do as a think tanks, we run these leadership programs in any one year. I might be influencing about a thousand executives and policy makers from governments and companies across the world. Now, to your last point, and this is very important, having built the credibility of our methodology and our intellectual premise about three years ago I was advised post COVID. Particularly people realizing that what we had predicted and which many thought was so pessimistic and negative, had actually transpired.

And so I was urged to reach a 100,000, 250,000 people a year, and the only way to do that is to go take our content, which is our own ground truth to our programs we run, which are field-based as well, creating models for economic development, social improvements, but not NGO stuff, serious, look at economic politics, et cetera. And then to take it online. So three years ago I raised some capital, about 3 million US dollars, and created. The education knowledge platform. 

Which is very different from the LinkedIn and all of these other, what I call industrial learning platforms. These are very curated to what I've just described, the challenges. So that's what we do. And in our programs you also develop business models that look at new ways of addressing some of these challenges, be it renewable energies, agriculture, water scarcity, policy formulation, or even plastics.

[01:15:09] Colin: Now that leads me very well into the next point. You have pointed out in previous interviews about the need for a strong rule of law at country level to ensure compliance with sustainability, the initiatives you have mentioned. So let's weave the strong rule of law since this is Law & More, as I like to know your views on that and how you see the rule of law in particularly in Hong Kong.

'cause there's a big elephant here. Everybody says, well, does Hong Kong still have the rule of law? And I would resoundingly say, yes.

 More than, yes. More than most other places I would suggest. 

[01:15:45] Chandran: Absolutely and fair. And fair too. I can get a fair deal here. If I'm even charged with something, I know I can get a fair deal in Hong Kong. But to the question basically I've argued that if you take the thesis that most of what we do in terms of the economic activities have been a free ride on resources.

And that includes therefore, and I'll use the, the example of 'is car ownership a human right' and what are the limits? How many can you have? Because they're all a free ride on resources, be they highways and all of those things. Then my argument was going into the 21st century with the resource constraints.

The science tells us this and the impact of the externalities of our abuse and underpricing.

We are gonna have to have tough rules. Tough rules and therefore you're going to need very strong states. So the United States today is a very weak state because it believes that freedoms are unfettered and everybody can do anything,

In the United States provided in this rare current regime that they don't challenge the almighty whatever his name is.

So, I believe that our part of the law we're gonna have rule of law. Very tough, but I don't go as far as to say that you need democracies in the way it's described through, in the ideological struggle between the west and the rest. That democracies are the only way that you enable rule of law, right? 

So coming to Hong Kong, during the protest in particular, I was pretty much involved in trying to get a different narrative out there. I remember being invited once to CNN to talk about it. I think this is the week where all the international media were reporting that the PLA were apparently, all lined up at the border ready to come into Hong Kong. And I think the CNN who know me a bit, thought I would be the good voice who would say, yes, they are coming and it'll be terrible, and the Chinese are marching in. So what was typically a four minute slot became about eight to nine minutes because I refuse to acknowledge their thesis that the PLA were coming in, I said, the Chinese are not that stupid. They know how to play this game. So since then have obviously been involved in what has been happening in Hong Kong, and I firmly believe that the national security laws were essential. 

Most countries have them. And as a lawyer, you might know much better than me, and I know some of the leading lawyers in this city that the laws here are equal not more draconian, what they have in Singapore for perhaps subversive acts. 

[01:18:39] Colin: Singapore is much stronger. 

[01:18:40] Chandran: That's right, that's what I said. 

I tried to tell people you're criticizing Hong Kong, but do you know the laws in Singapore are much tougher than here? So I think the Hong Kong government and the sovereign have done the right thing. I think the Hong Kong government maybe outta naivety, but also feeling a goodwill about how the international media will react for many years played it calm and did not address what was potentially a deep threat. And I think that void was exploited very carefully and created mayhem. And then eventually we got what we have. And I was asked just two weeks ago by a friend of mine from the UK, Hey, is it okay in Hong Kong? And can you do what you want?

I say, I do everything I do no different. 

[01:19:26] Colin: I get that all the 

[01:19:27] Chandran: time 

[01:19:27] Colin: when I'm in London. 

And 

[01:19:28] Chandran: they said, do you still write? I said, I write. Do you criticize? I say, I do. Do you criticize the Chinese government? I said, yes, I do, but I don't look to overthrow the Chinese government because I have no interest in overthrowing it. I have no interest in overthrowing the Hong Kong government. And if you were an American and you openly said that you were good seeking to overthrow the US government by colluding with the Russians or the Chinese, you would be put away. 

So I don't see anything. And if those sorts of things transpired in Hong Kong, I'd be the first to speak up as well as I would many.

So I think Hong Kong has managed this very well. I think some of the PR has not been very good, but we're not that good at PR. Neither my friends from the Mainland, and I've said this to them, but the Americans and the Anglo-Saxons invented PR. So we are learning now what PR looks like.

[01:20:21] Colin: Chandran, you are a prolific writer. You contribute to the Financial Times, Guardian, South China Morning Post. You have various books you are writing or penning.. How do you find the time to do all of that? It seems quite remarkable. I always see in your other podcasts you've been on, where do you get the time?

[01:20:39] Chandran: You kind of make time.

I have very good colleagues in the office and the early days I had to do a lot of it, but I found time to do this and write and I find the right thing stimulating as well. I have people do the research, et cetera, so you need colleagues to do that. But as they say, if you are passionate about certain things then it doesn't seem like work and you find time.

I still play actively sports and things like What sports do you play?

I play field hockey.

[01:21:11] Colin: So you play hockey in at the football club or you...

[01:21:14] Chandran: Happy Valley and I used to dare I say, I used to manage and coach the Hong Kong team for about seven years and took them to the Asian games and things like that.

So, you try and mix it all up and have a life.

[01:21:29] Colin: Now I want to plug your new book. It's called Understanding China Governance Socioeconomics Global Influence. It's received Good reviews, give us a summary of the main gist of that book. 

[01:21:41] Chandran: Thank you so much. It'll be available as of October, so we've got all the reviews and things like that. Very simply put, I belong to something called the Club of Rome and we have a Club of Rome China branch and the four founding members felt that, there's so little understanding about China. So this started initially as a report to the Club of Rome. And then we realized as things were getting much worse in terms of misunderstanding, there needs to be a publication that really explained what China is about and took a more balanced view. And if you go around looking at China books, a large amount of them, as are just simply critical by people who've never spent great amounts of time in China, et cetera. And then there are a few which are less critical, but even positive and sometimes overdo it, but take a particular angle. So as I was doing all the writing the publishers wanted it to be a lean book. Because my intentions were that it should be read by many. And so the gist of the book is simply this, that China's a complex place. Much of what you hear about China is not true.

And so here's how you might get a balanced understanding of China through introduction to the basics, the systems of governance. What is the Chinese Communist Party? What is its history? What are the achievements of China? What's the education system like? What's the social contract like, and what is technology doing? But the thrust of the book is to not be wholly academic. It's not right for public intellectuals and my main audience, I hope we can succeed at achieving that, is to address. The young people and the average person who hears so much about China but doesn't know where to go to understand it. So what does the governance system look like, the five levels, what does China look like in terms of its economic development. The whole crux of the social contract. What does the socialist Chinese Communist Party motives and objectives look like?

And very importantly, what's it's foreign policy? And we don't try and take sides here. The book doesn't try and take sides, neither does it try to, diminish China's achievements. So it says there are issues, major issues, but we don't take cheap shots and we don't try and make ideological points and we try and dissect where China is different from other countries and why China's particular model is suited to itself. And at this time in history.

[01:24:24] Colin: And it's a very opportune time for your book to be published with last week's events with the meeting of the Russians, the North Koreans, and everyone together, the 80th anniversary as well, and people with China certainly is in the world's headlights right now at the moment. 

[01:24:41] Chandran: Absolutely. And I was just aghast when I saw the EU foreign minister I don't know who she is, I think she's German, in a speech, speak about the propaganda of China and Russia with regards to their role in the Second World War. You have a EU foreign minister not knowing her own history. I mean, we all know that the Russians paid a heavy price, and I think in terms of debts more than anybody else, and we all know that if not for the Chinese defeating the Japanese as well. The second World War might not have come to an end, and so it is just historical perspectives and coming back to narratives.

Narratives are so important.

The narrative is that the Chinese are bad, somehow because they have something called the Chinese Communist Party. These are all authoritarian dictators and somehow, all these other countries that are friends of China must be bad too. We're trying to get people to read the facts, lots of references, simple references, and then come to their own conclusions.

[01:25:50] Colin: I'm looking forward to read the book. Hong Kong's your home. You've been here for a period of time. The future of Hong Kong. You are here forever and ever.

[01:25:57] Chandran: Am I here forever and ever? Well, it seems like... 

Yes. 

it is, it is. and I have home in Malaysia too, so I love Hong Kong. I think it's a fantastic place like any other place in a changing world. It has been at the center of a major transformation, and I think the question people ask me. Will Hong Kong be the same? I said same as what? No place is the same. And Hong Kong in particular has to transform because, in 1997 when Hong Kong was handed over to the Sovereign, I think Hong Kong's, GDP was 25, 23% of China.

Can you imagine that? 7 million people 1.3 billion people. Today, I think it's about two or 3%, of the GDP of China, but of a much larger GDP, that the pie is much bigger. So that in itself would inevitably lead to massive change. And then coupled with that, the ideological shifts that have taken place, and particularly how the rise of China has created waves and great discomfort, particularly in the West. We saw what happened then in Hong Kong. My view is Hong Kong was child of the start of the post-Western world. And Hong Kong, we exploited, but it did not fall. It was exploited to try and create unrest in China, which is very naive of whoever the architects of that thinking. And Hong Kong has changed. What has changed? Unfortunately, a whole generation, of young people from 1997 onwards thought they were British rather than Chinese. Some of them left and good luck to them. And then we lost a lot of talent. Lot of talent, a lot of expatriates also left Hong Kong. But so many people still think, especially my expatriate friends who've left, is Hong Kong still the same? I say, what do you mean? Right? Because they have this romantic view. The Hong Kong should still be the Hong Kong they knew in 1998 or 2005. It is very different because China has changed. The world has changed.

So, just to say the future of Hong Kong. I think the future of Hong Kong will depend very much on its integration with the GBA. My main concern with Hong Kong is the policy makers here have not really grasped what that actually entails, what they should do to integrate it, and I think we are. A decade behind what that vision was meant to be. But it'll thrive once it gets that right. But we do need less parochialism as someone who loves Hong Kong, less parochialism in Hong Kong. And we do need more vision.

[01:28:56] Colin: Now finally, we've discussed some real weighty issues today. The world clearly faces incredible and complex challenges. Do you have faith in humanity to overcome these real difficult problems?

[01:29:11] Chandran: I'm an incorrigible optimist and I get invited to speak at many international forums, business forums and all of that. And typically the business forums where everyone wants you to help them continue to drink the Kool-Aid. I come and say, we're actually in a very bad shape. And here's the scientific evidence. There's very little signs in business, in business forums, et cetera, and you give them the scientific evidence from, the amount of animals we eat, which is like 64% of all the biomass on the planet in terms of terretial animals. I think 34% are human beings or something like that. And then they all get scared, and then they say to you, why are you so pessimistic? Why are you so angry? And I said, well, what's wrong with you that you aren't even concerned? And why aren't you angry? 

So I think you need to be immersed in the facts to have a chance of navigating a better future. Denial is not an option, sadly. Coming back to your question about sustainability, many are in denial. So I'm encouragbly optimistic, but I don't like the word humanity. Because particularly with what's happening in Gaza, I belong to several forums, international forums, and I'm at risk of losing a lot of European and American friends for accusing them of being complicit by being silent. And I wonder why they are. But the point is there's a lot of what I call vague things about humanity is at a dangerous point. And I point to them, it's not humanity. It's a few nations. It's a state of the Zionists in Israel, the American backers, and many of their Europeans, who 18 months later are beginning to understand that mass murder and genocide is not something they want to be remembered for. So I have hope for humanity in the sense that there are different pockets of humanity.

The Problem is the economic and military power of our world now resides with a few, and the stark reminder of that is how they can get away with murder and then just silence this all.

The majority of us don't believe. So humanity does not support what is happening, but it can't stop it. I do think we have a problem with what I said earlier, that humanity somehow is unable because it's so entrenched in this economic consumption model. It's unable to see the slow trend. Of essentially being suffocated by our economic ideas and breach that mental mindset and create what I call redesign our societies.

And I think Hong Kong should be the intellectual capital in this part of the world. I've said this many times. Don't be just the financial center, be the intellectual capital for the new 21st century thinking, and that's what Hong Kong should be as well.

[01:32:20] Colin: Chandran, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More. 

Thank you Colin for having me. Thank you so much.