Episode 58 - Bebe Chu

In this episode, we meet former judge Bebe Chu, a leading authority in the field of family law. Bebe reflects on her upbringing in Hong Kong, early days as a solicitor and her subsequent career in the Judiciary, where she was eventually appointed as Judge with Special Responsibilities for Family Cases in the High Court. Since retiring from the bench, she has continued her career as an arbitrator and mediator. She speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned.  

00:54 Introduction and Guest Welcome  
01:49 Current Activities and Recent Work  
02:58 Early Life and Education  
05:47 Career Beginnings in Law  
07:28 Transition to Family Law  
13:59 Becoming a Judge  
18:01 High Court Experience  
22:34 International Hague Network of Judges  
26:08 Reflections on Family Law and Reforms  
30:36 Retirement and New Ventures  
35:35 Final Thoughts on Hong Kong's Future

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter  

Established in 1985, Boase Cohen & Collins is an independent law firm equipped with Hong Kong knowledge and global reach. Please visit our website.

Transcript

[00:54:00] Colin: Hello everyone. My guest today is one of Hong Kong's most distinguished legal practitioners, Bebe Chu, formerly the Honorable Mme. Justice Bebe Chu. Now retired from judiciary last year after sitting as a judge for 21 years. After joining the family court in 2003, she rose through the ranks being appointed principal family judge in 2009 and judge with special responsibility for family cases in the high court in 2015. Further afield, she served as one of Hong Kong's representatives on the International Hague Network of Judges. She now has continued her legal career as the first neutral member at Devoeux Chambers. More about that later. And Bebe, welcome to our podcast, and as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?

[00:54:55] Bebe: Thank you very much Colin. And I have been actually quite busy recently. First of all, I have got an arbitration case and there was quite an interesting issue arising out of that. And I've been doing a bit of research and the issue had troubled me, so it kept me working until quite late recently.

For that case, I have been appointed as the presiding arbitrator. I've also been working on a couple of mediation cases and two weeks ago, I just concluded one. Unfortunately with no overall settlement. But it was not a easy one and I also had to prepare for it. And about a week ago, I was invited as a responding guest at the panel of the Children's Forum, which was organized by the Hong Kong Committee of Children's rights at the Hong Kong U. And that was also a very interesting experience for me. So as you see, I have been quite busy and in between, I've also made a very quick trip to Shanghai.

[00:56:04] Colin: Excellent. Before I start discussing your career, let's go back in time and I'm very interested about your upbringing, school days and how you got involved, what made you do law. So tell us a little bit about that.

[00:56:17] Bebe: Gosh, that would be going back quite a long time. well, maybe I'll start with a bit of my background or my parents' background. My father ancestors came from. Deng Hi, which is a island now called Jo Shan. Which is opposite the city of Ning Bo. This is in JiJiang Province, and so he was Ning Bo-nese. My mother's family was from Shanghai. They were living and working in Shanghai before the Japanese occupation, but they then had to move to Chengdu, Chong Ching for a while. And then they moved back to Shanghai where my father was working. In 1949, the textile company, he was working, decided to relocate all its operations and some of its staff to Hong Kong.

So my parents moved to Hong Kong. I was born here three years later. Those were very interesting days, and we were living in a old. Tenement house. We were on the top floor, on the second floor was a very nice American gentleman, elderly man whom I called American uncle. He was very nice to me and he insisted on taking me to go and meet the nuns of.

A very well-known school called Maryknoll Convent School.

[00:57:41] Colin: Yes. 

[00:57:42] Bebe: I was very scared in those days, but he insisted on going with me to see the nuns and insisted on the nuns accepting me. So, fortunately, the nuns also liked me, so I was accepted in kindergarten and Maryknoll Convent School was where I spent 14 years.

So all the way to A levels, and at that time I was very ambitious. I wanted to be a doctor. So I went into the science stream but unfortunately it is a well known school, but it wasn't well known for the science subjects, at that time. I didn't do well, and then I discovered that there was a new department at Hong Kong U and that was two years old. Not that new, but also quite new compared to the medical department faculty and I decided to apply for it. Again, quite fortunately, I passed the interview. I recall, I was interviewed by Bernard Downey and John Greer. Yeah.

[00:58:45] Colin: Yes. They're the founders of the law school

[00:58:47] Bebe: They're founders of the law school.

So I passed that, I was accepted and then I became a lawyer. 

[00:58:53] Colin: Yeah. So you went to the Hong Kong U, you decided to do law, and you did the PCLL. 

[00:59:00] Bebe: Yes. 

[00:59:01] Colin: Then you decided to qualify as a solicitor.

[00:59:04] Bebe: Yes.

[00:59:05] Colin: Any reason for that or did you always think about being a solicitor?

[00:59:08] Bebe: No, actually that was a very good question because I've always wanted to be a barrister. The first year summer, I, that was 1972, summer, I was in Dennis Chen's Chambers as a summer student, and I was very keen to become a barrister. And the second year I was at the solicitors firm. And then the third year still wanting to be a Barrister. So I joined the Charles Chang Chambers that year. Charles Chang was in the middle of a very complicated divorce case, and it was quite unusual. The wife was the petitioner. The husband was the respondent, but about six other women was cited as Co-respondents.

[00:59:54] Colin: So

[00:59:55] Bebe: Being his mistresses.

Yes. So that got me rather interested in the facts. And through Charles, I met his instructing solicitor of that case, which was Helen. At that time, very well known, lady solicitor, she was one of the very first lady solicitors who started her own firm and she specialized in matrimonial work.

She, again, took a liking to me. We got on quite well, so she convinced me, being a Solicitor and being her trainee would be better for me than going to be a Barrister.

[01:00:31] Colin: So your early roots were pure family? I know how I arrived in 81 and I met all the people, the family law, it wasn't very many people doing it, but you then did traineeship, so you were straight into the coalface of family law cases at the very beginning.

[01:00:46] Bebe: you are quite right, but of course being a trainee, I had to do a bit of everything. So I did do a bit of Conveyancing. I also did a bit of criminal law and I remember going to, somewhere, some prison for some prison visit.

[01:01:02] Colin: That that's on Lantau.

[01:01:03] Bebe: Oh, sorry north. But there was

[01:01:05] Colin: Lai Chi Kok.

[01:01:06] Bebe: Something, somewhere else.

Anyway, but that put me off completely because it was a very hot summer day and I had to change buses or mini buses. I couldn't remember what in order to get to the prison. But that's the end of any interest in criminal law. That was when I we were called Article Clerks in those days and that was probably the last criminal case I was ever involved in.

[01:01:30] Colin: So you then went into family law and ultimately, your practice all developed purely in family law at that time.

[01:01:37] Bebe: Well, family related. 

[01:01:38] Colin: Family related, custody children

[01:01:40] Bebe: also also a bit of probate, doing worlds more the personal side of the law and what is nowadays called private client work, but mainly divorces.

[01:01:51] Colin: Did you enjoy that? When I first came into Hong Kong in 81, we developed a family practice here, and I always felt I did a little bit, as Sharon Sir said to me, I dabbled in it a little bit. And occasionally a case here and a case there, and we had lots of lawyers doing it.

I always noticed that my team who do family law get quite stressed and very difficult and it's not the easiest form of practice.

[01:02:16] Bebe: No.

[01:02:17] Colin: And you continued doing that. What kept you going?

[01:02:20] Bebe: Well, I guess in those days actually, divorce in a Chinese society, was still quite a taboo subject. And divorced women would be faced quite a lot of social stigma. And I don't know why, but I always like to fight for the weak, so to speak.

And I just felt. They should have equality. I'm a keen believer in DEI so I, just enjoy. Enjoyed fighting for them. And of course I had a law directed for a lot of husbands as well. I believe in equality. There was also the women liberation going on at that time.

The movement, I do not believe that either sex has any edge over the other one, but basically they should be treated equal. And now of course, talking about Sharon Ser. At that time Sharon had not even arrived. But David Glynn, who was here was more formidable opponent than Sharon.

 I mean, very often we were on opposite sides, so in a way I just also interested in advocacy litigation, and I was really keen to score a point over David. We became very good friends afterwards, but I have to say when he first arrived, he looked at me, I was half his size and Chinese women and he was from Charles Russell.

So he did really didn't think very much of, this, young girl, so to speak in those days. But I fought on and eventually built up a reputation for myself.

[01:03:58] Colin: Yeah. And then you became a partner in Stevenson Wong. How did that come about?

I mean, we worked. Tell us a little bit about that.

[01:04:06] Bebe: Well, I was with Helen and Helen after two years with Helen, she made me the partner and then one day she suddenly announced that she was going to retire and joined the judiciary. In fact, she became the first woman judge to, to join the family court. So I was left on my own. I was almost in tears. I didn't know what to do.

 I was not yet 30 and with a firm, I mean, at least I had to keep it one running. I managed to persuade two friends to help me, which is Bruno Chan. Yes. And also Peter Hoy. I mean, it so happened both of them. Then later on also joined the judiciary. So after running the firm, Helen Low for a while.

It was not easy in those days because it was coming up to 1997. There was a lot of people from Hong Kong immigrating. We were losing quite a number of staff because they wanted to relocate, they wanna move to Canada, they wanted move abroad. And then one day I just got a bit fed up. So I said to my husband, who was then a partner at Stevenson Wong and said, I want a merger. I basically, I don't think I had really had left him with any choice. So he had to go to his partners and say, my wife wanted to join me. So I moved his firm. When we merged, we had a merger.

[01:05:30] Colin: And Stevenson and Wong, very, very well known firm at that time. I remember quite a few cases. My firm against firm. We did a lot of the family work. And therefore you developed your practice in Stevenson Wong, and you were doing, pretty well. You really had a great reputation and family law.

[01:05:47] Bebe: Thank you. But I think that was because Stevenson Wong, being a bigger firm, I had a lot more support. I was able to find a lot of good assistance solicitors, good clerks. And I also at that time dabbled. Now this is my dabbling into the Chinese, the mainland property section because I was able to speak Putonghua.

So I diversified a little bit, but mainly streamlined still family.

[01:06:16] Colin: Yeah. And, and did you enjoy practice? Did you enjoy the data cut and thrust of practice and, being the, the comradeship? 'cause being a law firm, I mean, the great thing about a law firm is we've been established, we're celebrating our 40 years and 

[01:06:28] Bebe: Congratulations.

[01:06:29] Colin: Thank you very much and it's all the associates and trainees. You talk about your cases together. You've always got support in doing that, which really helped me, I've always wanted to remain as a solicitor was the sort of ability to have someone to talk to and to deal with cases, discuss cases as well. That must have helped you with the family law.

[01:06:49] Bebe: Yes, yes, of course. But along the other hand, of course there was the administration side of a big law firm and being a partner there. There were lots of partners, meetings and all that. But still it was good. I enjoyed my time there. 

[01:07:05] Colin: So you did very well your firm, then in 2003, you went to the family court, the district court, when you become a district court judge or any form in the Highland judiciary, that's it. You signed the declaration that you will not go back to practice. What made you do that? Were you asked or you tapped on the shoulder?

[01:07:27] Bebe: Yes. I was in a way tapped on the shoulder, but by that time, actually, I was, quite frankly, I was thinking of retirement. I was 50. And I thought I had done enough. And I thought joining the judiciary spend several years there because one could retire, say at 60, 65 was the retirement age at that time, so I thought maybe another 10 years working as a judge has a change of environment, just like pre-retirement work and gradually slowing down would be good for me. But of course it didn't turn out that way. It turned out that I had to work even harder than when I was in private practice. 

[01:08:10] Colin: Just to help for our listeners, you have a district court and within the district court you have the family court, which has its own flaws in respect to matters and has, experienced practitioners who then become judges or part-time or deputy district court family judges who help out as well. In your early days, did you always do family earlier on? I presume in the family court, it was always family.

[01:08:32] Bebe: Yes. I mean, I think when I was appointed it was made clear to me. In fact, when I attended the interview by the judges, when you apply to become a judge, there was another interview. I remember about 10 people and I remember that then Chief Justice Sir Andrew Lee.

Who was very kind to me, and we got on very well, but he's always been very direct and frank. He said to me, you only specialize in family. Although you did a bit of probate other areas, you're not really that strong in your other civil cases, so you may not get any promotion.

So will you be still content to join? So I said, alright. You told me that straight in my face. Fine. I said, oh, okay. I'll accept it. So I accepted it and then he then said, I'm to make you principal family court judge. At least it's a kind of promotion. So I said, thank you very much. And so little did I know that after about nine years there, suddenly I was then told that I had to go to the high court to deputize as a CFI judge for the first instance. So that was it. And 2012 I went up to the high court. I was there for 11 years, which was actually longer than my family court.

[01:09:54] Colin: So. the district court family cases, enjoyable. Was it lonely at all? From being in a bustling busy solicitor's firm, when dealing with the cases and a lot of it was a lot of litigants in person. now they're sending a lot of litigants in person. Did you enjoy it?

[01:10:11] Bebe: I did actually. It was smaller in those days. There were about six of us then, the judges and acting district court judges. We got on very well. Again, it was like a family and there were a lot of litigants in person, but actually, I don't mind that even adopting in the high court. I don't really mind dealing with litigants in person. But of course there are some vexatious ones. But in the family court, a lot of the litigants in persons can be educated. They're sensible. And they know what they're doing. They don't want to spend a lot of money on hiring solicitors or Barristers, and because they think they know the facts of their own case best, so they then prefer to act in person.

Of course, there are many types of litigants in person, but I didn't really had a, have any tough time with them.

[01:11:07] Colin: Right. That's good. So you then appointed a deputy high court judge. Obviously you were gonna do the family cases that came before you, but also at the early stage, even as deputy court, you seem to morph into more litigation in property disputes and I've read some of the cases completely, very different cases from family. Shareholders cases, probate cases, commercial cases, everything. Now, how much family did you actually do in a high court?

[01:11:36] Bebe: Not very much in the end, because there are not that many cases, big money cases transferred up. I did do quite a lot of children cases, wardship cases, but the bulk of my work, almost 90% of my work in the high court is just general civil cases.

So fortunately, I can still remember something from the university days. And I was also fortunate that in the first few cases, very complicated, several cases I had, I had very good legal representatives appearing before me. They're very experienced silks and the research was excellent and, overcame everything. I did the trial and I have basically a trial judge. I didn't actually have any problem in the end, not as many problems as I thought I would have.

[01:12:28] Colin: And of course after being the deputy judge and sort of performing well, you got promoted. You got appointed as a high court judge. And for a solicitor to become a high court judge, there are some, obviously, but not too many. 

[01:12:43] Bebe: Very few. Very few. 

[01:12:44] Colin: Very, very few. 

[01:12:45] Bebe: Nick. Nick Barnett. Yeah. Nick Barn. Nick Barnett was a,

[01:12:48] Colin: with the registrar. He was

[01:12:49] Bebe: was a registrar. And then judge, I think he also actually went up to the Court of Appeal.

[01:12:55] Colin: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. 

[01:12:56] Bebe: So he was, he was the only one. Was it?

[01:13:00] Colin: I think so, I'm racking my brain to find any solicitors who were directly into the high court, but that's a good thing, I think.

[01:13:08] Bebe: Yes, yes, yes, of course. I mean, of course by that time we are all fighting for Solicitors. Actually, Mimi Chan went up to Chan. Mimi, yes. Mimi and I, Mimi of, of course, she...

[01:13:20] Colin: was Ellen and Overy. And then...

[01:13:21] Bebe: But before Ellen she was Stevenson Wong. So we were colleagues in those days, but she of course, specialized in commercial arbitration work. So she went up to the high court, I think a year before me. But in those days, maybe again, I was lucky.

I mean, there were not enough judges and they needed a lot of manpower. So I was asked to go up and. passed the test, I guess in the end.

[01:13:47] Colin: Was it ever lonely being a high court judge?

[01:13:50] Bebe: Lonelier than being a family court judge, I have to say. But there was so much work at the high court.

I don't think one even had the time to feel lonely.

[01:14:00] Colin: Yeah. From a sort of view, which I have had discussions with other friends of mine who became judges and for our listeners in the US systems, you have lots of clerks who help you out and even do right for judgements. Well, they help in doing the research and writing.

You have very good support in the UK and in Hong Kong, we don't. Other than the Court of final appeal, has some judicial assistance, to do some research as well. And the writing of judgments can take up a lot of weekends, put it that way.

[01:14:31] Bebe: Yes.

[01:14:31] Colin: and a lot of hard work,

[01:14:33] Bebe: A lot of evenings, a lot of weekends. Yes.

[01:14:35] Colin: And if you get behind in your judgments, then it even becomes, really difficult.

[01:14:39] Bebe: Yes, yes.

[01:14:41] Colin: And, and nowadays, even with some of the very good judges. In practice, we are waiting, sometimes it can be six months, nine months, twelve months. I'm waiting for a judgment on one case for nearly two years at the moment because we're so busy.

[01:14:54] Bebe: Yes. And yeah, we're very busy and I've actually agreed to go back to help out. So I will be sitting again as a deputy judge sometime next year. Oh, right. But there is really a shortage of judges. 

[01:15:08] Colin: Well, I got appointed to the Inland Board of Review as a deputy chairman, and I had a right to the decision to the other people. And if you got behind and you forgot and you're doing other things, that really was difficult I found.

[01:15:21] Bebe: It was very difficult. I don't know how to describe myself, but if I have a outstanding judgment, I would not be able to sleep well.

So in order for me to have a good night's sleep, I had to finish any outstanding judgements within time that's me. otherwise I wouldn't be able to sleep. Yeah.

[01:15:40] Colin: I'm also interested, and I think our listeners will be that you were also appointed as a member of the International Hague Network of Judges. In a nutshell, explain exactly what that entailed and what that was all about.

[01:15:52] Bebe: Well of course there's an international Hague convention, which is to prevent child abduction. But abduction may not be a correct word, is basically to prevent a parent or somebody who has control of the child to unilaterally move the child from one jurisdiction to another jurisdiction without the consent of the other parent or authority. So this is the Hague Convention, but the Hague Permanent Bureau, about 20 years ago thought it would be a good idea if they start a network or form a network of all the international judges, because then in a case when a child has been taken unlawfully from one state to another state there could be communication between the judges to liaise for the speedy return.

Not to influence each other over the decision, but basically to facilitate the return of a child. So most of the states would nominate one or two judges to be part of that network. And for me, I was nominated, appointed for Hong Kong. We started off having one, which was Michael Hartman.

Yeah, he was the first one. And then when he was about to retire, I was nominated and appointed, and at one stage I was the only one. And then Queenie Al Young was also. Appointed. before that, I think Sharon Malloy was also appointed for a short while. 

[01:17:32] Colin: I think it does work very well because again for our listeners as an explainer, if you take the child, and you are part of the Hague Convention prima phase, the child is to go back, if you just sort of pull the child out without a court order, there are exceptional circumstances, but very, very difficult.

[01:17:46] Bebe: That's right.

[01:17:47] Colin: To get around it as well. 

[01:17:49] Bebe: But sorry, just on the network of judges. I was going to say, it's not only just to liaise, but because we used to meet regularly, say once every two years or sometimes even once every year, It was a great opportunity for us to share experiences and also, especially for a small jurisdiction like Hong Kong, we.

Would get the chance to meet other inter family judges. For me, I was very lucky that I met Diana Bryant, who was at that time the Chief Justice of the Family Court in Western Australia. I also had the opportunity to meet Sir Matthew Thorpe, who was then the head of the International Family Justice in England.

And in fact, I also met the Baroness, Brenda Hale, who then eventually the head of the Supreme Court in UK. All these connections, the network, we became friends, all helped I think, in understanding how others, especially bigger jurisdictions, how they deal with various family cases.

And I think that for me is really quite an experience. 

[01:19:05] Colin: That sort of takes me to another connected topic. You're very experienced in family law. Your time as a judge, you've been law reform commission. Your assessment of Hong Kong family law. Clearly I take the view we are right up there with all the other jurisdictions, but a lot of people talk about adjudication.

Mediation, just alternative dispute resolution for the family law to try to get with children and some other areas. If you were thinking from all your experience, some improvements or something which you think is important to make it more efficient and Cost effective. A lot of people complain, quite difficult to get legal aid, so it is very expensive and if you've got lots of money, the high end cases get very, very difficult as well.

So is there any way forward to make it and getting access to the system here, any reforms you would like to see?

[01:19:57] Bebe: Well, when I first joined the family court, everybody knew that at that time that my dream was to have a properly structured family court of different levels of courts.

I mean, with the juvenile court as the magistrate's level. Dealing with camp protection orders, and then of course the family court, like our present district court level, and also to include the court of first instance level all under the same roof. And quite apart from all that. I would also like to see the jurisdiction to be broadened, not just to cover, divorces or custody, but a broader family law like inheritance, succession, mental capacity in a way, like what Singapore is doing. I mean, they have included some of these cases as under the family court umbrella and of course to deal with all the the increasing number of litigations, the cases, alternative to dispute resolution is extremely important. Two months after I joined the family court, in fact, that was the introduction of the pilot scheme on financial dispute resolution, which is the FDR, then it was the CDR. Now we encourage mediation. We have mediator assisted FRR, CDRs. We can also have private FDRs.

And of course there's also a pilot scheme on private financial adjudication. This is similar to arbitration in a way because in those days, why the scheme was set up by Johnson one of our permanent Court of final appeal Judges was because we received a request from practitioners to set up a scheme similar to family arbitration. But we see family arbitration, because the order that the judges under the rules, always have a final discretion. So it's not like a civil commercial arbitration where an arbitration award can be just simply binding without having go through the court procedure again. So we see a difference between the two, and that's why we've set up this private adjudication scheme for family cases.

 I mean, it hasn't been too successful so far. We have only one case, which was conducted by Michael Hartman. At the moment they are two cases being discussed, but I'm not sure whether the parties would agree. I could also understand from the party's point of view is if we can go to court, if we have a free judge, we don't have to pay for the judge.

All we needed to do is to pay for our lawyers. But now if we go to private adjudication, we have to pray for the judge as well so that there may be. A reluctance on their part, but still, I hope that could take off. And that's something I very much like to see as being part of the family court procedures.

 And of course I think they are already introducing that now, judge mediators. Not only just have a mediator there to assist a judge, but Singapore actually have the judges themselves as mediators. 

[01:23:25] Colin: Yeah. I mean that's becoming more and more common 

[01:23:27] Bebe: That's more common.

[01:23:27] Colin: it does actually work because if you have a mediation and the judge. The parties would listen to the

[01:23:35] Bebe: media chat. Yes, yes.

[01:23:36] Colin: a little bit more than perhaps listening to me when I try and mediate.

It's

[01:23:40] Bebe: Hopefully, hopefully.

[01:23:41] Colin: natural. That one as well. Now you are retired from a judiciary last year. Could you have stayed on or were you happy to retire? Because you said you're gonna go back as a deputy.

[01:23:51] Bebe: Well I didn't have to. Well I didn't have to retire. I mean, I was offered an extension, which I decided not to take. I thought I needed a break. And also we were living in, Judges quarters which was something like 4,000 square feet on the peak. But, quite frankly, to me, it was always like a borrowed time, borrowed place. And when you live in a place as huge as that. You tend to get the more things. So I've decided that I wanted to come back down to Earth. I want to try to sort out the move when I still have energy and when my husband, my husband is now 81, but I want him...

[01:24:35] Colin: angus looks much younger than that when I was talking to him not too long ago.

[01:24:39] Bebe: But I would like to see us settle down, although in a much smaller flat, but at least it's somewhere we can call our home and our permanent home. Having said that, we have also got a weekend home in Lantau, which we really enjoy. Anyway. Go back to whether I could have stayed on. That was the main reason why I decided not to stay on.

But of course I could have, and I am going back to help.

[01:25:06] Colin: Now, I'm also very interested and I did mention this. Your membership of Des Veoux Chambers. Brilliant chambers. We had John Scott as one of my guests. I've had Winnie Tan as one of my guests on the pod. You are a neutral member of Des Voeux Chambers. Now, I suspect that what means that you are there as a mediator, as someone who can go , to resolve a dispute.

Not to give actual legal advice, but to participate in arbitrations, adjudications, et cetera, et cetera. Have I described it correctly as to what your role is?

[01:25:41] Bebe: Yes. Yes, you have. But as for the term, Neutral Member, you should have asked Winnie. She's the head of Chambers, and I'm not sure how she and William Wong, both of them are now joint heads of chambers, but they came out with this term and apparently when I asked Winnie, why is it called Neutral Member, she said it's a term used in America apparently to describe somebody, because I've never been a barrister, so I could not join a set of Barrister chambers as a door tenant apparently. And I'm no longer a solicitor, so I'm neither this nor that. So they came up with this term. So I'm doing arbitration, I'm doing mediation. I could take up some expert evidence of being an expert. But. Not actually practicing law. I mean, as I said, I'm not a Barrister, nor am I a Solicitor anymore, and nor am I a judge, so I'm neither this or that or that.

[01:26:41] Colin: Well, that's quite good 'cause you can reinvent yourself into doing things that you want to do. I presume. The great thing that you have now is that as a member of Chambers, you can really choose what you want to do and what you don't want to do, whether you are available for something which is interesting or not that interesting, so you can decide, how you want to, organize your life.

[01:26:59] Bebe: Yes, yes, of course. That is the reason why I decided to join. And they've been very good to me. And I thank them actually for inviting me. 

[01:27:08] Colin: and also it's quite good, as when you're a solicitor, you are a member of the council of a Law Society at one stage. And you are now on the roll of honor of a law society which is still back to your solicitor's roots.

 I think as a solicitor, I think we as a profession are really proud as to what you have done over your career to help, I mean, if you saw a youngster or you are mentoring someone, would you advise that someone to take a career up in the judiciary?

[01:27:34] Bebe: Yes, of course. 

[01:27:35] Colin: Also, you are heavily involved in the Hong Kong Family Law Association when you were there and they did a little celebration for you at the China Club. Unfortunately, I wasn't in Hong Kong, so I wasn't able to, they're very, very nice people and, and that's very good, as well, enjoying life at the moment?

[01:27:51] Bebe: Yes, very much so.

[01:27:53] Colin: Do you have any other things you do when you're not judging or doing law? Any hobbies? Apart from looking after Angus and keeping him on the straight and narrow, which I'm sure you do. 

[01:28:01] Bebe: And drinking less. 

[01:28:02] Colin: And drinking less. Yeah.

[01:28:04] Bebe: Whoa. funny you should ask, but this morning I was playing bridge.

[01:28:08] Colin: Excellent.

[01:28:09] Bebe: I'm trying to improve my bridge skills and being taught by a young man who think I've gone into dementia because whatever he taught me, I would forget.

So but that. That, that is a good game I used to play when I was a student, but I've times have changed.

The bidding systems have changed, so I'm taking that up as a hobby again. And what else do I do? I'm just basically traveling a lot 

[01:28:40] Colin: enjoying life. That's very good. Now finally, we know Hong Kong has been through challenging times in recent years. Hong Kong is renowned for its famed resilience. Your thoughts on the city's future, obviously this is your home.

You are staying here. I've been here since 1981 and this is my home and I'm staying here. The future of Hong Kong. How do you feel? You know where our institutions and the rest. 

[01:29:06] Bebe: I have full confidence that Hong Kong is gonna be fine.

It's gonna be great, I love Hong Kong. I've never lived anywhere else. I was born here, I was brought up here. I was educated here, fully educated, I can say fully made in the colony of Hong Kong, I suppose in those days. And Angus and I used to have a little cottage in England. We thought about retiring in England, but I'm glad. We decided to sell and make Hong Kong our permanent home.

Of course, Hong Kong, as you said, we have gone through some challenging times. I mean, it's not the same. It will never be the same. We have moved on, let's put it this way. We have less Brits here, but we do have a lot of other nationalities moving in.

A lot of young French people 

[01:29:58] Colin: My son-in-law is French. Yeah. The French are the biggest, for our listeners, they are the number one expatriate community by a long way.

[01:30:05] Bebe: I 

[01:30:06] Colin: the 

[01:30:06] Bebe: know, I know. 

[01:30:07] Colin: By a long 

[01:30:07] Bebe: Yeah, I know because one of the judges' daughters also married a French man. And I've got a surrounding French restaurants, French bakery, and Germans also.

I have come across two new German friends and young people. They're all young and I find it very interesting. There are also Koreans around it's quite a lively new community, so to speak. Complete change from the old colonial days. And of course we have no more protests.

Let's put it this way. It's quite peaceful and to me at this moment, and I'm quite confident that the rule of law will continue and I'm very happy here.

[01:30:49] Colin: Bebe, on that note, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More.

[01:30:56] Bebe: And thank you very much, Colin, for inviting me.