Episode 60 - Bill Ricquier

In this episode, we meet renowned lawyer and academic Bill Ricquier, whose distinguished legal career has included spells in London and Liverpool before settling down as a long-term resident of Singapore. Aside from law, Bill’s other passion is cricket. Having fallen in love with the game as a schoolboy, he has authored several acclaimed books on the subject. He speaks with our Senior Partner – and fellow cricket fan – Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

00:45 Introduction and Guest Welcome
02:20 Early Life and Cricket Passion
04:57 Academic Journey and Legal Career
07:24 Move to Singapore and Initial Challenges
11:24 Return to the UK and Subsequent Career Moves
15:09 Significant Legal Cases and Professional Experiences
17:30 The Rise and Evolution of Incisive Law
18:09 A Career in Academia: Teaching and Writing
20:47 Cricket: A Lifelong Passion
22:36 Authorship and Controversies in Cricket Literature
29:34 The Love for Test Cricket
34:17 Future Plans and Reflections

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter    

Established in 1985, Boase Cohen & Collins is an independent law firm equipped with Hong Kong knowledge and global reach. Please visit our website.

Transcript

[00:45:00] Colin: Hello everyone. I'm very much looking forward to my chat with today's guests, given that we share the same twin passions of law and of course cricket. Bill Ricquier is an old friend of mine, renowned lawyer and academic who was born and raised in the UK, but has spent much of his career in Singapore. Aside from being joint managing director of legal services firm, Incisive Law, he hosts a delightful and magnificent cricket fiend podcast called 'Readings From The Pavilion End', and has offered several books as well as written countless articles about his favorite sport.

Bill, thank you so much for joining us, and I always start with my usual question. What's been keeping you busy recently?

[00:45:55] Bill: Thank you so much, Colin. It's a pleasure to be on your splendid podcast, which I frequently listen to. Well, as you say, I'm joint managing director of this law practice, so that keeps one fairly busy. A bit like you, I'm not doing as much casework as I used to do. Just the admin side keeps one busy.

 I know I'm not the first one of your interviewees to be been involved in updating a book. I have a textbook on Singapore land law and the sixth edition is due in December. I missed by quite some time the deadline for finishing my part of the process, which has now, thank goodness, been finished, so that has keeping me very busy In fact.

[00:46:34] Colin: Okay. Let's go back in time, and I'm very interested in your upbringing. I understand you are born and raised in Winchester, Southern England. I understand, and Hampshire, what are your memories of growing up and what brought you into the law? Give us a bit of your background.

[00:46:53] Bill: Okay, well, you're absolutely right. I was born in Winchester, which is a lovely city. In fact, my wife and I still have a small home right in the center of Winchester. So we do go back quite often. I think Cricket was very much a part of the family. My father and his four brothers established what later became the leading club, in Winchester, they were initially high ramblers. Now I think Winchester City, but my brother was a cricket tragic, just like you and me and his knowledge of cricket history was very, really phenomenal. He wrote several books. He was the archivist of Hampshire. He played quite a lot. And cricket was just, difficult to avoid it, even if he wanted to.

I think it would've been. Difficult to avoid it. I can still remember very clearly in my first visit to the old county ground at Southampton Northlands Road, I can almost smell that smell of new moon grass. We had lunch in the tent. It was very exciting. A sort of Marquee Hampshire versus Kent, must have been the August bank holiday of 1962.

[00:47:57] Colin: Wow. Now you did do something else apart from all you did go to school, I hope.

[00:48:02] Bill: Yes.

[00:48:03] Colin: And you went to Winchester. It is a well known school that isn't it?

[00:48:07] Bill: Well, everybody else has coresters. You'll, always hear lots of things about coresters. Winchester didn't. Winchester has queererster 's I Spent three years at Winchester College Choir school, very unusual education. There were just 16 of us at any given time, covering three years.

Once your voice broke, you're out. We were taught everything by a slightly alarming retired colonel called Mr. Weeks, and it was a very interesting experience. After that, I went on to the excellent grammar school in Winchester and then from there to university. But I have very intriguing memories of my time at the college, which is of course, Winchester is a beautiful place.

The cathedral, the college. Marvelous medieval buildings put up by William of Wickham and also famous War Memorial cloisters, designed by Sir Herbert Baker who helped Lutchens in New Delhi and also designed a building you'll be familiar with. Although it no longer exists, the old grandstand at Lords where with the scoreboard in the middle with old father time at top.

[00:49:08] Colin: Father Time has found its way to the other side. 

[00:49:11] Bill: Indeed, yes. 

[00:49:12] Colin: What got you into Law Bill? 

[00:49:14] Bill: My brother again, I think that was partly it. He was a solicitor in Winchester and he was always a very influential figure for me. So after school I was thinking what to do at university and I applied for Law. Got into Lincoln College, Oxford. But I've always really interested in history. And so, Ted was toyed with the I idea of reading history instead, having got in, I interviewed for Law and then they sent me the reading list and I'm afraid this is rather shallow.

I had one look at the venerable bead and I thought, I'm not sure this is for me. And so I went back to the law. I had very good friends. Lincoln's, one of the smaller colleges. There were about 10 lawyers, 10 historians. Most of them became very good friends still. And I think oddly enough, the only one who became a judge was a historian, although one of the lawyers who you might know, 'cause he spent time in Hong Kong, was the first solicitor to become a well then a QC, now a KC.

[00:50:09] Colin: Remind me of the name.

[00:50:11] Bill: Paul Michard

[00:50:12] Colin: ah, yes, yes.

[00:50:13] Bill: Who was a partner at Skadden Arps and also, I'm sure you will know Paul Harris.

[00:50:17] Colin: Oh, Paul Harris, very well.

[00:50:19] Bill: Yes.

[00:50:19] Colin: Ex-chairman of the Bar Association. He's back in the UK right now.

[00:50:23] Bill: Yes. I think he would be a very good subject for your podcast.

[00:50:26] Colin: Yes, he would be an interesting person to bring on. But anyway, so did you enjoy law? Did you enjoy Oxford? I mean, I dunno why you went to Oxford. I went to Cambridge and you obviously picked the wrong college.

[00:50:37] Bill: Well, nevermind. We all have our crosses to bear.

[00:50:39] Colin: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:50:41] Bill: Yes, I did. I I think like many people, I probably didn't make the most of the opportunities that a place like Oxford offers you, but I enjoyed the law. And that of course I enjoyed the place. We had two principal tutors.

Michael First who is of course for many years, the editor of Chessire and 

[00:50:58] Colin: Let me explain to our listeners. Cheshire is the leading textbook on contract law. And everyone had to look at it. You always had Cheshire says this and says that still quoted in courts nowadays.

[00:51:09] Bill: Absolutely. And our other tutor is a man called Brian Simpson. Wonderful man. Very interested in legal history. Very interested in land law, which I became very interested. His great book, I think, historical Introduction to the Land Law. I like that 'the'. And he was a great character. I think he traveled around the world with a piece of wood, which he claimed was part of the mast from the famous law case of Dudley and Stevens. 

[00:51:34] Colin: Oh, right, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So you went to Oxford and enjoyed yourself, and then you decided to go to Canada. Is that right? To do a master's

[00:51:44] Bill: You are right. Yes.

[00:51:46] Colin: What took you to, Halifax, Nova Scotia? Middle of nowhere.

[00:51:50] Bill: Well, it is a bit in the middle of nowhere, but it has got a very good law school. In fact, after Oxford, I worked for what are now Lexus Nexus, then Butterworth's for a year. And that was interesting. But the job I was working on, Halsburys Statutes, I think I'm a great fan of the whole Halsbury's thing, but it's a bit dry. And I thought, I'm not sure whether I want to carry on doing this. Anyway, I thought about maybe a bit more academia, do a master like so many people do.

And in fact, it was Brian Simpson who recommended. Dalhousie, 'cause he had spent a year there. It was definitely, certainly, I think still is probably one of the best law schools in Canada. And so I spent a year there. It was a thesis master's rather than a coursework masters, which suited me better, I think.

And I did a thesis on an administrative law

[00:52:37] Colin: Right. So you spend your time in Canada, then you had to get yourself qualified, I suspect, 

[00:52:43] Bill: No, not immediately. 'cause I thought having got the masters I maybe have a crack at academia. And so I applied for a few jobs and I got a job at Liverpool University. And it's funny, I was looking back on it. Being a university teacher is one of the. Few jobs, which appears to require no training at all.

 A had a Master's, I'd never taught anything. That's not quite true. I'd had a holiday job teaching English as a foreign language, but that was it. So I remember standing up in front of my first class to give a, and I thought, this is not as easy as it seems. And that first year was a bit of a struggle.

But like everything else, the more you do of it, the better you get. And I really enjoyed my time as an academic. I enjoyed Liverpool very much too. I think it was a wonderful place. But must have been the summer of 1979. I was looking to a newspaper. I remember the newspaper 'cause the Times was on strike.

So I was looking at the Observer and there was a job advert, faculty of Law, university of Singapore as it was then. I thought, well, that sounds interesting. I had no, burning desire to go to Singapore or any else. I'd thought about the University of the West Indies 'cause of the cricket, but it never occurred to me to go to Singapore.

But I saw the advert, I wrote to them, they wrote to me. I went down to Oxford, had tea with Peter North in Oxford, and they offered me the job. So on the 1st of February, 1980, I arrived in Singapore.

[00:54:11] Colin: You arrived in Singapore a year before I arrived in Hong Kong. So there were you working at, Singapore University, what were you teaching at the beginning?

[00:54:19] Bill: The first year I was teaching commercial transactions and trusts. And then what I really wanted to do was landlord and the opportunity came up second year, and though for many years I did landlord and trusts teaching with a team who, all of you, I'm still very close to who we were teaching back all those years ago.

And I spent 10 years at NUS full time. I took a year off in the middle. I went back to England and did the bar exams. 

[00:54:48] Colin: To become a barrister.

[00:54:50] Bill: Well, I decided to become a barrister because that was the easiest way to qualify as a Singapore lawyer. 'cause I didn't need to do pupillage. As you can become a barrister without actually doing pupillage.

 I passed the exams and I ate the dinners and that took a year. Then I was called to the bar, and that meant I was a qualified person for the purposes of the Singapore Legal Profession Act. So a year or two later, I was able to do the equivalent in Singapore, and became an advocate and solicitor in Singapore in 1979.

Although soon after that, having got married in 1988, we decided to go to England. So we left Singapore. In fact, in 1990. Spent four years living in Winchester and I was working in the city, for those four years.

[00:55:39] Colin: Early impressions of Singapore. Did you like the place? Were you happy there? What did you think of the place?

[00:55:46] Bill: I didn't know what to exp expect. I was totally ignorant about the place. There were so many things I can remember about those early years and I had a few problems awry to begin with, to be honest. 'cause as my eyesight has always been a problem and about three months after I arrived, I somehow managed to get a blood clot in my retina. And that meant the only way to deal with this was to literally do nothing for two weeks while it de coagulated. And so because the doctor I'd gone to was a private doctor. I had to go to a private hospital.

I mean, the cost of course, nothing like it was now, of course I didn't know that many people, I think the hospital had just opened. So quite a lot of people from the faculty came to pay a visit to have a look at the hospital as much as anything else. Although I do remember all these people have become very good friends since.

But the Vice Dean. He wasn't in Singapore, he was in Harvard, but his wife, who I'd never met at all, she came with a bottle of whiskey and that was the best impression I had of this two weeks

[00:56:48] Colin: In Singapore.

[00:56:50] Bill: yeah. So that wasn't a very good start. And to be honest, I've often thought that, if they'd given you a package back after one year, I might have taken it, but they didn't.

You had to wait for two years. Now, after the second year, actually it's not so bad and in re in reality, of course I often think how different my life would've been if I hadn't seen that advertisement back in 1979. It's really strange.

[00:57:13] Colin: Well, it's very similar because I came to Hong Kong, I saw an advertisement in the press back in 1981. I just sort of qualified saying, come to Hong Kong, offering extortionist sums of money. And then I got the interview and got the job. Of course, it wasn't as much money as the advertised. When I went out to Hong Kong in 81 and started developing, and then I went and taught at the University of Hong Kong. 'cause obviously Malcolm Mary was a good friend of yours and he was in the same faculty but I was also practicing at the same time. And I've been remained in Hong Kong ever since. You said you got married in 1988 Actually, Serendipity. I got married in 1988 as well. So very similar past. And what took you back? What made you go back to UK to practice?

[00:57:56] Bill: Well, I think I was thinking that I've enjoyed academia, but I'm not gonna be a real huge star. Maybe I should think about practice, but if I'm gonna think about practice, I think I would like to be trained in London. There are all sorts of things going on.

I thought, should I go back to London? Anita's very keen on England, so that wasn't gonna be an issue, although I think her family, of course, was slightly concerned. That we were leaving so soon after getting married. But so there were various things going on and we went back and we enjoyed the time back in England, but I mean, economically, of course, it wasn't the greatest time and we came back to Singapore for a wedding in 1993 and we spent a bit of time here and Anita was offered a job here while we were here. And so we hummed and heard about it and thought, you know what, if we go back, I'll probably get a job as well. So let's see how it goes. So we came back to Singapore in July, 1994, and I've been here ever since.

[00:58:52] Colin: Now, when you went back that's when you went back into practice? Correct? And you had got yourself admitted already, I presume, to go work as a Singapore lawyer, or did you work as a firm?

[00:59:03] Bill: Yes, yes. I, I was admitted, as I say, back in 1989. And so I got a job quite quickly for various reasons that didn't work out. I then joined a firm called Tan, Raza and Cha. Where I knew quite a lot of people there. It's great firm to be with, and I spent I think seven or eight very happy years there.

[00:59:24] Colin: And what type of work you were mainly doing?

[00:59:26] Bill: All sorts of, I've always been too much of a generalist. It's the sort of thing that comes back to bite you in the end. But in the old days, I did quite a bit of litigation. Chelva Raj, the senior partner and I did a lot of appeals together. I would do the the writing and the appellant's case or whatever, and Chelva would do the advocacy. And I think actually, I think we were a very good team. We had lots of really interesting cases. I did quite a bit of litigation myself. I also did quite a bit of general corporate stuff. So in a way it was a bit too much generalist. The most interesting thing I ever did. And this was all Thanks to Chelva really. 'cause you'll remember one of the most extraordinary things that happened at this time, we're talking about the late nineties in Singapore, was the collapse of bearings. And

 Chelva was instructed to advise a delightful man called James Bax, who was nominally Leeson's boss. 'cause James had the misfortune to be, 'cause of the way Parings did things to be the chairman of Bearing futures. So he was asked to remain in Singapore. while all sorts of investigations were going on. And just at this time, Chelva was appointed judicial commissioner, so he couldn't do any, he was out of this and he asked me to take it over, of course, with other people as well. This was a real, as you can imagine, an incredibly stressful period for James. And I think Chelva probably thought having another AMO on board might be helpful. And that was a really interesting exercise. In the end James was allowed to go home without anything happening, but it looked for a long time as they were anxious to find somebody else they could put the blame on apart from just leasing.

[01:01:03] Colin: Okay. And then you joined a, a firm, which I know quite well, Alfonso Ang's firm, Ang, Fi and Ho as well. And you spent a couple of years there and you enjoyed that. They're a nice good firm.

[01:01:14] Bill: Well, yes. And, and Kim, of course, Kim's a very old friend of mine and currently still a colleague, in fact, with Incisive Law. And then I got an opportunity to do something a bit different internationally setting up one of these, we call them formal law alliances. This time it was with another old friend who was running the English law branch of Vic Paul Ryan in Singapore.

And so they wanted to do an FLA, so I set up the Singapore law practice with Paul Ryan. And we did that for a couple of years. Then that wasn't as successful as it might have been. Vic Paul Ryan, very successful, of course. But then an opportunity to do something similar turned up with Instant Co. And so that was the start of Incisive Law. The firm was set up actually as Ricky, a law corporation in 2010. We got the formal Law Alliance sorted out in 2011 and everything was very good for a few years. Then, all sorts of things happened within, so we need another entire podcast to talk about that.

But I think that is not the

[01:02:15] Colin: That's for another, that's for another day. 

[01:02:17] Bill: Ints, as you probably know, no longer exists, but Incisive, touch wood, goes from strength to strength.

[01:02:22] Colin: That's good. 

[01:02:23] Bill: So we're carrying on without...

[01:02:24] Colin: While you're enjoying yourself practicing and doing lots of interesting things, you've still continued to lecture and still continue to write. So you do part-time lecturing or you still are connected

[01:02:36] Bill: Well, 

[01:02:36] Colin: us.

[01:02:38] Bill: I should think in about, must be 20, 20 plus years ago now you see, I'd always taught landlord and trusts and they are subjects which most people working at Universities no longer want to teach. They'd much rather teach or sexier type things. So they're always looking to people who want to do these subjects.

And I can't remember exactly when it was, to be honest, the early two thousands, I was asked if I'd come back as an adjunct just to do those two subjects, which I was very happy to do. And I enjoyed the teaching. You feel slightly detached from, well, more than slightly perhaps. You, you turn up and do your teaching.

So you sort of get to know the students you are teaching, but you are not part of University and the way that you are, of course, if you're full time. And also I think the fact law faculty had moved. So I, I felt there wasn't quite the same collegiate atmosphere as they had been earlier, but that's just my opinion.

And that created on, I gave up trust probably about 10 years ago. And three years ago, I think they decided we really need to get the full-timers to do these subjects. So I gave up the land law probably about three years ago. But my book, the first edition, came out in 1985, I think. That's just called land law. And it was the first textbook on the Singapore land law. There've been others since and one much bigger book than mine, which I think is the preferred, as they say textbook for the universities. But if I was a student, to be brutally frank, I'd probably look at mine.

Land Law is a complicated subject, which many people hate, but I've always tried to describe without losing the sight of the fact that it's a very complex subject, I try to describe it and explain it in as straightforward way as possible. And the sixth Edition, as I said, I was asked to do the sixth edition earlier this year, and it should be out.

[01:04:31] Colin: and that's, you're hoping to get it out quickly soon. 

[01:04:33] Bill: Well, they are the publishers. I'm not as satisfied with it as I ought to be. I felt I didn't have as much time as I really needed. They seem to be anxious to catch the Christmas market.

[01:04:43] Colin: Well. 

[01:04:44] Bill: But anyway, it's in their hands. Now. I'm waiting to see.

[01:04:46] Colin: Your book is one of the leading books on Singapore. What is the leading book on Singapore Land Law so the royalties will still come in. 

[01:04:54] Bill: Oh, of course. I'll be retiring very soon. Yes. 

[01:04:57] Colin: Well, I don't think anyone retires on royalties of Land Law. Okay. Bill. You're in Singapore, you're doing a law, but your real passion of your life is cricket.

Now I left and I went to Hong Kong and I started getting involved at the Hong Kong Cricket Association, playing a bit of cricket, still watching, still had my membership of MCC so I'm always following Cricket. Cricket in Singapore. Did you get involved in Singapore, cricket? 

[01:05:21] Bill: To begin with, it was a bit frustrating because there was initially, there was a bit of cricket played in Singapore in the old days because a lot of touring teams would stop here that had more or less ceased by the time I got here. There was a period where they played quite a bit of one day cricket here, there'd been some spectacular games here, I think. I think Shahida Fried also have had some sensational innings here. I've watched Brian Lara here. There has been some decent cricket, but not a lot. And as I say, I've always read obsessively about cricket, so I always thought Sherlock Holmes could work out what year I arrived in Singapore because my 1979 Wisdom. It looks older than any of the others because I spent more time in this unfriendly climate. So I continued to read a lot. I watched a bit of cricket in other places. But a lot of it was simply, you know, radio because there wasn't much televised cricket. So yes, perhaps I should have tried to get more involved in the local cricket.

As you probably know, I have friends very much involved in the local, not just local cricket. Imran Kja, who is a partner Tan Raja and Cha, who I've known for many years, he, as you probably know, is the vice chairman of the International Cricket Council. I interviewed him, in fact on the podcast about a year ago.

And I was involved a bit in law society cricket, but you're right, I should have got more involved in Singapore Cricket perhaps, but that I didn't.

[01:06:50] Colin: now. Yeah. Let's talk about your books. They're great. I mean, one of your first books was you always talk about the 100 greats and the 100 greats of Hampshire County Cricket Club 2003, which you co-authored with Neil Jenkinson and David Allen. It's part of your hundred greats when you sort of go on to look at other books, what was the genesis to that ideas?

[01:07:12] Bill: The publishers were called Tempus. They're now called, I think the history press and they were doing box books in all the counties to begin with. They were just picture books with captions. And Neil Jenkinson, although you wouldn't think so from the name, he was my brother, we are half brothers, and he was the archivist.

So he was asked to do this and Dave Allen is the current archivist. They're both really interested in the ancient history as it were. I'd always wanted to write, I'd written a couple of things at Oxford. I did a few things on Cricket for Cherwell, the University newspaper.

I'd had a couple of things published in Wisdom Cricket Monthly by David Frith and Neil said, look, why didn't you do some of these? So in the end I did about 50 of them, of the hundred greats. And then I approached the same publisher, in fact, a friend here. An American friend said, look, why do you do a similar thing for Asia?

So I approached the history press, I had lunch with them, in London, and they said, look, we're English publishers, but if you want, why do you do an Asian with an English twist. So we hit upon the idea of their title, the Indian Masters, which was Indian cricketers who had a link with England.

So obviously obvious examples are Rant Sindri and Du Lip Sindri and the the Old and Nava Pati, all of whom played for England, but also, Indian cricketers who played county cricket, of whom there have been a large number, Uvilda Wankard who played Lot of League Cricket. So that was the Indian Masters.

And then we agreed to a similar thing for Pakistan.

[01:08:40] Colin: Yeah. Now, one of your books, which has caused a little controversy is your Immortals of English cricket, in which you tell the cricketing stories of 11 players, the immortal players. Now you must have loved doing that. And how did you choose your team and there've been a few issues about that.

[01:08:58] Bill: As you probably know, the front cover has a lovely quote from Vic Marks saying an an elegant way to start an argument. Now the publishers were Australian and they have a series of things, not just cricket. They have, the immortals of Formula One, whatever. They did Australian cricket, and they said they approached somebody. I have a friend who's a literary agent. So it was rather exciting to be approached by an literary agent. Say, I thought of you, would you like to do this book? And I said, yes. I said, what's the deal? He said, the deal is not, you just get on with it. You choose your 11 immortals. So is it a team or is it just the 11 players who you happen to think are the best?

And I thought, I look at the Australian one. The Australian one is a team. And I thought, well, I can do a team. And I think you could probably say, it covers both options. So the team was entirely chosen by me using my knowledge and what I'd read. The first thing, the critical thing is where do you start? Because John Woodcock, the great John Woodcock, wonderful times correspondent for many years, he has a great book called the Times hundred Greatest Cricketers, and he starts back in with sort of Hamilton.

[01:10:09] Colin: Yeah, that's.

[01:10:11] Bill: five, I think number four between, Gary Sobers and Jack Hobbs, he's got Alfred Min, the Lion of Kent who played in the 1840s.

My feeling was that was, that was just too far ago. And the critical person actually, and this is Wg Grace, because Wg Grace, many people would say he is, you go to Lords, you go through the grace gate, the great cricketer. Many people would say Grace was incomparable and I decided that Grace again was just a bit too long ago.

Although one of my favorite pictures in the book is a picture of the England 11 at Trent Bridge in 1899, which has the unmistakable figure of WG Grace in the middle of the front row. He was captain. It was his last test match, but it was also the first test match of Wilfred Rhodes, who is in my 11, because I felt that Wilfred Rhodes, although he played a long, long time ago, he played until the 1930s.

I saw Wilfred Rhodes when he was an old man. He used to come to Bournemouth. He was blind. He used to come to Bournemouth with his daughter and son-in-law to watch the cricket, to listen to the cricket. And I thought, I can include roads and Sydney barns, but Grace is too far back. And then it's just a question of who do you get in?

And like everybody else, of course will have a different view.

[01:11:33] Colin: We, we, we all always have different views of all which you have in your teams. Now, tell me a little bit more about, your podcast readings from the pavilion end. How did that come about?

[01:11:44] Bill: Well that came about, actually, it's in a sense, it's nothing to do with cricket at all you.

Marooned at home. Still working, but looking back, it's such an unreal period. I noticed that people were, I think what's his name? The famous actor reading Shakespeare Sonnets on the radio or whatever. I thought I could do that, so I started reading a poem. A day and distributed it on WhatsApp and people really seemed to like it. And it went on for about, for a year, literally almost every day for a year. And some prose. Prose is more difficult 'cause it's difficult to find prose, which is the right length, you think. You can't go on indefinitely. It has to be quite short. And even extracts from, plays a couple of songs, I think people really did seem to like it.

I think partly 'cause of that period, you know? Then a friend suggested you could turn this into a podcast. So the podcast initially, although I always wanted to link it with the cricket, was just these poems, but they're a bit short and I'm not sure if podcasts really worked with one person to be honest.

But then I thought, we can do this for cricket as well. So I interviewed Imran. I interviewed a famous Indian cricketer who lives in Singapore, Abba Ali, who famously got 100 in his first test match. Manchester in 1959 when he was at Oxford. VJ Mandrake, the father of Sanjay Mandrake had been injured and he played an old RAF and got a hundred in his first test match.

Hugely famous. You can imagine what this like in India. And he must be the only sportsman who's referred to an a Salman Rushdi novel 'cause of an incident which occurred very famous incident when he was playing in Bombay. I think Mumbai between a huge crowd against Australia came off at tea time and, this girl came out and kissed him and rushed back, and this caused a huge sensation in India in 1960, and Abba tells a very funny story about it, which you can read in my blog. I

[01:13:45] Colin: Okay, that's, we'll get people to hope. Our listeners will go to your blog and read that. Now, you and I, we had the great pleasure of watching Cricket together this summer. It was the world test final, Australia, South Africa. We're at Lords watching the test match as well. Now, I love test matches your views, the test match versus the 20 overs, the one day game, the white ball.

What's your views? I like all crickets, but my true love is Test Cricket. Yours?

[01:14:15] Bill: Absolutely, I think there's no contest. The old cliche about, Cordon Bleu versus McDonald's is probably isn't quite fair on any of the parties. But, but T 20. I really just can't get, I appreciate, I see why it's popular, but to be honest, I can't really, can't be bothered. 50 overs a bit different.

And I remember, as you'll remember, in the old days when it was sort of 65 overs, there'd been some wonderful finals. I used to watch a lot of country cricket, one of the games I'll never forget is the Benson And Hedges. think it's a quarterfinal or semi-final at the old country Ground Hampshire, with New Hampshire and Gloucestershire, when Mike Proctor got a hat trick and and Hampshire fought back and almost won.

And it was just a tremendous game. And you always remember the World Cup final at Lords with Ben Stokes.

[01:15:02] Colin: Yeah. Yeah. New Zealand. 

[01:15:03] Bill: Of course, actually much of the game was very boring. It was the last hour, which was totally riveting and then really astonishing at the end. And I think that last World Cup came up with some very remarkable games. The Glen Maxwell innings against Afghanistan, it's really extraordinary. But test cricket, although it is alleged to be under threat. It seems to be getting more exciting. There's so many fascinating games all over the world now, and people worry about test cricket. I think oddly enough there's probably more Test Cricket being played now than historically if only because there are more countries playing it.

But, it does have to be nurtured and I mean it's obvious what the direction that things are going. 'cause there are going to be more franchises, there's gonna be more money. The IPL will expand, the Saudis are gonna probably gonna get involved.

And so the window for test cricket is, I'm afraid 

[01:16:00] Colin: Yeah. 

[01:16:01] Bill: smaller and smaller, however good the game is. And also people...

[01:16:05] Colin: The MCC, our club, the 100 we have, spending a lot of money on a team for the London Spirit. For the one for the hundreds, and that's a lot of money coming outta that.

[01:16:15] Bill: Let's face it, the hundred, whatever you say about it is keeping county cricket going for another decade or so until this lot of money runs out and they don't know what to do next.

[01:16:24] Colin: Yeah, I mean, I mean that.

[01:16:25] Bill: I mean, it's a shame that four day crickets is economically like maybe it's never really been sustainable. I mean, in the old days course cricketers didn't get much money.

And they didn't seem to care. Now people care a bit more and the equation's probably not gonna continue to work indefinitely.

[01:16:42] Colin: We are now in sort of mid-November, ashes is about to start. The PERF test will start, and, and I'm off to Australia in early December to go to the Brisbane test, the Adelaide test and the Sydney test. 

It's gonna be interesting. There's lots of sort of height happening, but I suspect that the Australians will perform a lot better than people think they're going to perform.

I think it's gonna be very, very difficult outcome. Your views? 

[01:17:07] Bill: Well, I don't know if you read my last...

[01:17:10] Colin: I did have a look at it. I'm interested.

[01:17:12] Bill: So my theory is that England. And it may to be fair, it's not as if Australia win in England all the time. It's quite challenging for them as well, but I think Australia only lose in Australia if they are quite bad, or England are exceptionally good.

 I think the one case, which is a really interesting contest, was the 1970-71 contest where Australia were not as sort of transitional. But they'd drawn a lot of ashes series before and after that England just happened to be a bit stronger then, and they had two truly tremendous performances.

One from John Snow, one from Jeff Boycott. This time, this year, if England going to have a hope in hell of winning, my feeling is Joe Root is gonna have to get two or three centuries, or somebody is gonna have to get two or three centuries, and these bowlers are gonna have to stay fit. 'cause Australia, I think they are a bit more vulnerable, that their bating is a bit more vulnerable than it has been.

And their bowling, we keep saying this, their bowlers are getting older, but they are very fit and they're hugely experienced as well as being very talented. So I agree. Realistically it's hard to see England winning, but as I concluded in my blog England have the advantages of having what I think is the most impressive and extraordinary cricketer of our times, namely Ben Stokes.

[01:18:30] Colin: Yeah, absolutely. Incredible player. Now moving forward, you are in Singapore, it's your home. Now you are there. Are you gonna retire soon or are you gonna carry on what you are doing? You are settled where you are. Where's your plan at the moment?

[01:18:43] Bill: I wish I could say we had a plan. I think I will probably retire sooner rather than later. We have, as I say homes in both places, and as so far as that's possible, I think we would like to maintain a foot in both camps, as it were. We love being in England on holiday. All the news from the UK is so depressing.

One wonders to think twice about need to go and live there permanently. And there are all sorts of reasons. I mean, Anita is much younger than me and her business is flourishing and there's no reason for us to be leaving here at any time soon. So I think there won't be any major changes in the foreseeable future.

 Singapore has been, as I say, I came here on this hunch almost, it wasn't even a hunch. I didn't know what to expect. It's been extraordinary how my life has been transformed here. And I'll always be grateful for the fact I had the opportunity to be here and to stay here. And I think it's people have all sorts of issues about Singapore.

I think it is a genuinely remarkable place.

[01:19:41] Colin: Yeah, I was there quite recently for the Singapore Grand Prix and I really enjoyed myself. We, we catched up. I'm looking forward to watching much more cricket with you all the time and we hope

[01:19:52] Bill: Including at Adelaide.

Colin, I shall be there.

[01:19:55] Colin: Perfect. So we will be in Adelaide together and we will have a good chat and we will watch the game as well.

Bill, it's a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More.

[01:20:08] Bill: Well, it's been a real pleasure indeed. Thank you, Colin,