Episode 63 - Malcolm Merry

Today’s guest is academic, barrister and author Malcolm Merry. A leading authority on land law and keen scholar of Hong Kong’s colourful history, Malcolm reflects on his university years, four decades in the city’s legal sector and the diplomatic wrangle that inspired his most recent book. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned. 

00:48 Meet Malcolm Merry  
01:56 Early Life and Oxford  
04:37 Chicago and LLM Detour  
05:40 Bar Training in London  
06:41 Move to Hong Kong U  
08:12 Discovering Land Law  
11:11 Joining the Hong Kong Bar  
12:39 Full Time Practice Shift  
13:03 Title Work and Market Cycles  
16:17 Deputy Judge Reflections  
17:36 New Territories and Small Houses  
18:49 Writing the Definitive Texts  
20:42 Back to Academia in 2003  
25:33 Grounded at Kai Tak Book  
28:46 Retirement Life in England  
29:23 Cricket and Camaraderie  
31:19 Hong Kong Then and Now  
34:07 Final Thanks and Farewell

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter    

Established in 1985, Boase Cohen & Collins is an independent law firm equipped with Hong Kong knowledge and global reach. Please visit our website.

Transcript

[00:48:00] Colin: Hello everyone. My guest today is preeminent law professor Malcolm Merry. A man with more than four decades of experience in the Hong Kong legal sector as an academic barrister and author. Aside from his long association with the faculty of law at the University of Hong Kong.

Malcolm has served as a Deputy District Court judge and as a member of the Bar Council and the Law Reform Commission. He is widely regarded as the leading authority On Land Law in Hong Kong. Recently, he has published books concerning this city's legal history, as well as some other interesting ones.

Malcolm, welcome to Law & More, and as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?

[00:48:52] Malcolm: Well traveling to Hong Kong, Colin, and now living in England and have been for four years. But I try to come back fairly regularly. And I'm enjoying retirement, so I don't do very much of anything actually at the moment anyway.

[00:49:08] Colin: Okay. Let's go little bit back in time and tell us a little bit of your school days, university and how you got into the law. I'm always interested in that.

[00:49:18] Malcolm: I got into the law because my mother told me that I had a good memory and would make a good lawyer. And then one day at the village fates, I had my hand read by a gypsy lady and she took one look at my palm and said, this is a lawyer's hand. So I thought, oh, well, I've got no other ideas what to become, I'll try that.

[00:49:42] Colin: So University, I mean, I know you obviously went to the wrong University, Oxford, but No, I'm just being a little bit naughty saying that, that

[00:49:49] Malcolm: That's alright. I think of you. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:51] Colin: you'll, you'll forgive me for that one. But tell us about, you know, your schools and getting into Oxford.

[00:49:56] Malcolm: Well, I went to the Royal Grammar School, Worcester, which in those days was what they called a grant aided school. In other words, partly state, partly private school. And I had some very. Good teachers, very experienced ones, and one of them, chap called Robbie Robertson had been to Magdalen College Oxford.

Now, a couple of years before he taught me history, I'd been to Oxford and seen Magdalen College, the bridge there and thought, Hmm, this looks a very beautiful place to study. And by this good fortune, he said, well, if you want to go there. I can write a letter and you'll have a chance of getting in.

So that's what led me to apply to stay on at school and, and try for Oxford and end up at Magdalen College.

[00:50:44] Colin: And obviously following the gypsy, reading your hand, it was law as a subject you selected.

[00:50:51] Malcolm: Jurisprudence, if you please

[00:50:53] Colin: Oh, jurisprudence. Yes, of course, of course, of course, of course. Well yes, jurisprudence is the sort of philosophy of law.

[00:50:58] Malcolm: Well that is one of the subjects, yes. Philosophy of law. But Oxford calls the whole degree Jurisprudence, and it's much more academic than say the London University Law Degree which tends to be down to earth and commercial. So I studied subjects like public International Law and Criminology, which some lawyers don't think are really law.

[00:51:25] Colin: Did you enjoy Oxford?

[00:51:26] Malcolm: Yes, very much. Yes. It was stimulating of course. And really, you're aware that this was a great time in your life and I became the editor of the university newspaper, the Cherwell, and considered a career, in fact in journalism.

But then I thought. Well, journalists don't seem to be as prosperous as lawyers, so perhaps I'll stick to the law.

[00:51:49] Colin: and after you got your degree, defeated the examiners, you had to make a decision as to become either a barrister or a solicitor, or did you do your masters first? 

[00:51:58] Malcolm: Yeah, I got waylaid. I thought it would be a good idea not to go straight into practical training to be a lawyer.

And by pure chance, a post came up in Chicago at Northwestern Law School. This is a legal writing course. And to cut a long story short, I got the job. So I went off for 10 months, an academic year in Chicago, which was of course a very interesting byway for me. And at the same time, one of my Canadian contemporaries at Oxford encouraged me to apply to Dalhousie in Nova Scotia to do an LLM. And, and in fact, Bill Ricquier, one of your previous guests also did that. So after an academic year in Chicago, I went off and did an academic year studying for a master's degree in Canada.

[00:52:52] Colin: And when you finish your masters and you decided, what do you best start thinking about, get a job.

[00:52:58] Malcolm: I thought Playtime is over. We be, we better get the practical legal qualification. So I read for the bar back in London and then did pupillage in the Temple. 

[00:53:09] Colin: Enjoy your pupilage?

[00:53:11] Malcolm: Mainly yes, it's a bit of a stressful time 'cause you dunno what the future holds and there's no money or there wasn't in those days, any payment for pupils.

So I had to do part-time teaching to make ends meet. But looking back it was very nice when young to spend a couple of years in London.

[00:53:30] Colin: And what type of work did you do in, when you were in London, any specific memories of any cases or your type of practice? 

[00:53:37] Malcolm: Yeah, it's been eccentric really because my first pupil master was a libel lawyer, so I saw quite a lot of defamation.

And then I went on to do a landlord type pupillage planning law really also in the temple. And then I didn't know what to do. I got offered a tenancy in Birmingham, which is my home city, and was tempted by that, but I also saw an advertisement in the Times to join the faculty of law at the University of Hong Kong.

So I thought that sounds interesting. More interesting than Birmingham actually. So I applied, I didn't know at that time that there was a big expansion going on at Hong Kong U and I walked into the interview room and there was Colin Tapper, one of my tutors at Maudelin so I thought, oh, Malcolm, you've probably got a chance here.

[00:54:32] Colin: And you were interviewed, you defeated VP and you were offered a post and came out in 1981 to Hong Kong as well.

[00:54:41] Malcolm: July, 1981.

[00:54:42] Colin: Yeah. And I arrived in August 81. 

[00:54:45] Malcolm: Oh really? Yes. Yes. I thought, I thought you were here before me.

[00:54:48] Colin: No, no, no, no, no. I just came a month after you arrived.

So your first impressions of Hong Kong and law faculty when you first got here.

[00:54:55] Malcolm: First impressions of Hong Kong, like a lot of people were the Kai Tak nuller. And then I was moved into a palatial flat down Mount Davis Road. And there's beautiful smells down there, much better than Nuller. Hong Kong U was very welcoming in those days.

 It wasn't a faculty, it was a school. And about 50 students a year, I think in those days. So it was not forbidding at all. 

[00:55:24] Colin: Yeah. And you were there doing, what subjects were you asked to teach initially?

[00:55:28] Malcolm: Initially I was asked to teach what was called Mercantile Laws, commercial law in effect.

'Cause they were teaching in those days very close to the old syllabus of London University. And as I mentioned, they had this much more practical, bent to it. So I ended up teaching sale of goods and agency and so on. Subjects which I had touched on when I was teaching part-time, but I didn't know in any sort of detail.

And, I didn't know anything about land law and tenant law in those days, but because I was a new boy, I was asked if I would help out with what was in those days called the Department of Extramural Studies, now space. Who were teaching property laws, particularly land law and tenant two would be property managers.

So I sort of stumbled into that partly because Bill Clark, our good friend who did his back in moving furniture in Vancouver said he couldn't teach the course. He was down to do it. So I stepped in and from that, an interest in land law and tenant sprang up because I asked, where is the textbook?

And was told there is no textbook. There's just a lot of notes. Here are the notes.

[00:56:44] Colin: Yeah. There's an interesting day. So, I your early days at the faculty. It Was Deffit Evans. He was the dean.

[00:56:52] Malcolm: Was the first Dean, 

[00:56:53] Colin: And then it morphed into the PCLL and it became a faculty.

[00:56:59] Malcolm: Yes. I taught both in the LLB, that was the mercantile law, and in the PCLL, Peter Willoughby, who was the head of the PCLL in those days, he'd been on a review committee to decide what changes should be made to the legislation on landlord and tenant? And he encouraged me to teach landlord and tenant in the PCLL, which of course is a much more detailed course than the one I was teaching for extramural studies.

So I had to expand my knowledge there. So I was both a PCLL teacher and an LLB teacher

[00:57:34] Colin: Enjoyable times. Did you enjoy it?

[00:57:36] Malcolm: In retrospect, yes. I mean, it was daunting in a way, but I was young and I knew that if I put in effort, it would be rewarded both intellectually and materially. And indeed it was.

[00:57:51] Colin: Now, help me out for a little bit of that because I joined the faculty in 1982. Yeah, I was there from 82 until about 87 as well, and at that stage I went to practice and I was interviewed and Peter Willoughby wanted me to go onto the PCLL and I had to teach accounts, conduct, commercial law and practice. And on the LLB, Bob Alcock made me do some mercantile 

law

[00:58:22] Malcolm: Oh, really?

[00:58:23] Colin: So now, when I was a sort of Hong Kong solicitor, tell me about, you know, how you got into the, became a Barrister. Obviously you those days you can automatically get admitted. 

[00:58:33] Malcolm: The advertisement had said an opportunity to practice.

So that, of course, enticed me as well. But I didn't plunge straight into the practice side. I waited 18 months and then got admitted to the bar, Hong Kong bar. Noel Power was the judge who actually admitted me. And then joined a set of chambers set up by Desmond Keen QC who'd come out from England, quite a character,

[00:58:59] Colin: A real character. 

[00:59:00] Malcolm: We are just a small group of four or five of us at the start. It's grown since and become Parkside Chambers. But in those days it was in Diamond Exchange building and just a small set of offices there. And I did a bit of everything, basically including criminal work too in the early days.

Which I found quite useful for because I got into the advocacy side and the mooting in the university as well. So I was doing both types of job, practice and academic.

[00:59:32] Colin: Yes. And you continue doing that. I mean, you continue to expand your teaching in the land law and the other area. And, were you ever tempted like I,

after five years I left to go to practice because I was doing too much practice.

I couldn't do both jobs at the same time. But you were able to stay a little bit longer. 

[00:59:51] Malcolm: I was able to stay a bit longer, but I was keenly aware that I was being stretched by this.

And finally in about 1988, I realized I had to make a choice. And of course, I went for the money and wanted to become a full-time practitioner. And so I resigned with effect from the middle of 1989. After eight years at the faculty.

[01:00:15] Colin: Yeah. You then went into practice, but you then had a reputation of being a landlord and tenant and land law as well and just really specializing in that area.

[01:00:28] Malcolm: Well, that's right. Ironically, I was by then a fully fledged land lawyer. And my practice was predominantly in that area, or I should say those areas of course's, a good area or areas to be in, in Hong Kong.

But I sort of changed from landlord and tenant, which was my early practice predominantly and became more a title expert, concentration on conveyancing. Because you may remember that Hong Kong had this boom in the 1980s up to 1987. Anyway, and then there was a bust and as a result, people were trying to get out of sales and purchases so the money was in that area, which was conveyancing in effect.

[01:01:17] Colin: Let me just give an explainer to our listeners. In most countries on the planet of common law, you have registered land. Even to this very day to day, we don't yet have rated land, although the legislation is in place and the system is trying to put in registered title. So what had to happen was this, to prove your title, you had to have a series of documents going back what was called the root of title for 15 years to show that everything was in order.

But of course, the real difficulty was with the New Territories Land, there's issues and difficulties with missing title deeds or other issues or grants, and it became very difficult. And as if the market went up, no one complained 'cause people were flipping the price on. But if the market crashed, then people wanting to get out of their deals and they all then come to you for opinions or solicitors firms wanted an opinion from you as to whether there's issues with the title or good title can, the rectification could be dealt with.

[01:02:22] Malcolm: Well, that's right. You benefit both ways. If the market's going down, then people try to kick the lease as the Cantonese say, get outta the deal, by examining the title closely and trying to find defects that leads to litigation, of course. And if the market's going up, then on the boots on the other foot, it's actually the vendor who tries to get outta the deal 'cause he or she thinks, oh, I can sell it at a higher price than the one I agreed with the purchaser.

So being a barrister, you got the benefit both ways.

[01:02:55] Colin: did you enjoy Parkside chambers? 'cause I remember when they first established lots of interesting characters. . 

[01:03:00] Malcolm: Well, it became bigger, about 20 barristers during my time and moved from Central to Pacific Place, which was of course much more luxurious and expensive.

And expanded. And expanded. And by the time I left in the early two thousands they'd moved up in Pacific Place to bigger premises where they still are, I think. 

[01:03:27] Colin: Yes. A very eminent set of chambers. You were also a deputy district court judge. Did you ever think about doing that full time?

[01:03:35] Malcolm: My deputy judgeship was only in the Lands Tribunal. And that was essentially deciding the value of rents. So it wasn't any law really in it, it was just a bit of law. And I wrote one judgment. It was an interesting time. I'm glad I did it, but I was not sure it was the right career to follow because it's quite a lonely occupation being a judge. You can't go out to bars drinking and so on. So I was tempted, and they actually asked me what would I consider it and I said yes, but it was never fulfilled. I was told it was because they didn't want to have to hire a translator for me. I dunno whether that was a diplomatic way of explaining it. 

[01:04:21] Colin: Perhaps, the other reason was they did change the law, the protection for tenants was all of a sudden overnight removed, basically, and therefore, your two years are up. If you had no right of tenure, no notices. And still to this day, you can have option clauses, but you know, you don't have that court. You're going to decide what the value of the rents should be. Of course the Lands Tribunal is dealing with when compulsory acquisitions on law. Help me out with this, Malcolm. I mean, you're always writing a little bit about new landlaw in new Territories. How did that all come about?

[01:04:54] Malcolm: I had several properties out there over the years actually. I decided in the early nineties with my late first wife Cecilia, that we would move out there and have a dog or two as well, and I would walk with the dogs around the area. I noticed, these villages and there was villa type houses all looking the same. So I was intrigued by that and I began researching into it and seeing what was what.

And it was really the small house policy that intrigued me more than anything. So that led me into a new area. My interest and my practice matured from landlord and tenant to conveyancing, to building management, and then to New Territories and some history and customary law as well.

So by the time the end of the 2010s came, I was much more interested really in the history side of it and the New Territories than in the law that I'd been teaching and practicing previously.

[01:06:01] Colin: And as to your time and practice, you were quite sought after by, you know, solicitors who want to give you advice. But, writing a book takes up a lot of time and a lot must have painstaking

[01:06:12] Malcolm: It, it does. Yes. That's right. So I had to give up evenings and weekends for that and neglect my wife and so on. But I thought you've got to do it because nobody else is writing about these subjects. And this will give you a long lasting fame in Hong Kong.

Limited fame, of course. And, it would be helpful to future generations as well. Yeah. There's no money in this, I should add. 

[01:06:40] Colin: Uh, exactly. Now, I did instruct you on one case, which I did get criticized by your late wife on the case. If you remember my client was an American lady and this was regarding one of the most eminent, richest person in Hong Kong. As concerning, you know, whether monies were being....

[01:07:00] Malcolm: a definite highlight of my practice. Colin cross-examining Mr. Lee Ka Shing. 

[01:07:05] Colin: Yeah. And I always remember it was, we were all in court and I was instructing you to do it. It was a very difficult case, but, we do our best for clients no matter what, And he was there and all of a sudden halfway through his evidence, he said to that, oh, can I go now?

[01:07:20] Malcolm: Well, as I recall it was coming up to 4:30 and Mr. Lee, I suppose, had put in his diary that that afternoon he'd give evidence and it would be all over that day.

And so yes, he looked at the judge and said, can I go now? And the judge said, I'm terribly sorry Mr. Lee. You've got to come back tomorrow morning.

[01:07:39] Colin: Yeah, I remember he did that. But anyway, it was a interesting case and I'm glad I was able to instruct you to do that case.

[01:07:45] Malcolm: You've given me a number of interesting cases over the years. 

[01:07:48] Colin: Yes, I have, you know, we are good friends and we played cricket together, and we'll talk about that a little bit later as well. So, practice, , you are enjoying practice. You were doing that, you were busy writing your books, building management in Hong Kong, a third edition, the Hong Kong Tenancy Law went up to a sixth edition.

And then your other books as well, you then decided you might want to go back to the faculty.

[01:08:12] Malcolm: Yes. 

[01:08:12] Colin: Tell us a little bit about that. I think you always were the academic really, weren't you? 

[01:08:17] Malcolm: I think you are right that I didn't recognize that really. I was practicing away and the early 2000, remember that we had that big bust in 2003. 

[01:08:26] Colin: Yes. 

[01:08:28] Malcolm: Particularly, hong Kong had a series of recessions then and actually we had this terrible deflation. I had several mortgages as well, so I was suffering too. It was quite a depressing time. And Dear Cecilia recognized that really, I was unhappy.

And she said husband you should go back to teaching. Or go back to academic work. I wasn't convinced immediately, but fortune stepped in, the phone rang and it was dear old Michael Wilkins from the PCLL at Hong Kong U and he was basically saying, Malcolm, we need someone with practical experience to come back and beef up the profile and so on. Would you consider it. 

I was still doing some part-time teaching on landlord and tenant I should add. So I thought about it and thought, well, if you don't do this, what will you do? And I thought, well, probably I'd go back to England. I'm not ready to do that yet. So yes, I'll go back to Hong Kong U and complete the academic work, the writing in particular that I'd always promised myself I would do. And that included writing about the small house policy and the New Territories. 'Cause by then I was really into 20th Century Hong Kong history, early 20th century particularly.

So I saw that The New Territories gave a big scope for another book.

[01:09:58] Colin: And actually that book is really very interesting 'cause you were very critical to the way in which the government and how it all farmed out. You know, this idea where a born male has the right to have a house, per se. And recently there's been cases where people have been, you know, flipping properties and saying whether you do have the right to deal with all of that.

So you then got a reputation as being the doyenne of New law as well. 

[01:10:25] Malcolm: I wasn't actually the doyenne. I think Anthony Dix was, 

[01:10:29] Colin: Very knowledgeable. But he did lots of other work as well. He was more in arbitration and company. You know, he always said he was gonna be a company law. But you had the reputation. 

[01:10:40] Malcolm: There was a retired civil servant called Raymond Hayes, who also was, but he's not a lawyer.

He was writing on the villages and so on, which he loved. Not the field to myself, but there was very few other people in that area. So I thought I was sort of trailblazing again, at least in the English language, not the Chinese side so much.

And it led me into customary law, which proved to be very interesting. And again, I had some help from various people who had looked into that area and thought, there's more to it than meets the eye. I better write it all down.

[01:11:17] Colin: That's great. And now you're at Hong Kong. You are Renaissance back at Hong Kong, different times then different people. I mean, did you enjoy it just as much as the beginning or was it more satisfying?

[01:11:27] Malcolm: Well, they were both satisfying in slightly different ways, but I think on the whole, that the 1980s was better. I'm nostalgic for the eighties and the nineties in Hong Kong. And of course the faculty was expanding. So it was a great sort of growth period. And with a small number of colleagues, relatively small number of students as well.

So I think I'd prefer that, but I recognize that the the later law faculty is much more, how can I put it, international.

[01:12:01] Colin: Oh yes.

[01:12:01] Malcolm: Than than that in the 1980s

[01:12:03] Colin: and much bigger and much larger.

[01:12:05] Malcolm: Huge, yes, 

[01:12:06] Colin: And moved into the new buildings. 

[01:12:08] Malcolm: Wonderful new building in 2012.

[01:12:11] Colin: That's good. Now I'm very interested. Obviously, you are still doing a little bit of practice, even in your second stint, you're still in chambers advising. Not so many more on paperwork. 

That's correct.

Doing opinions on title and solicitors who got into difficulties, et cetera. 'cause that was the real problem. In that days the figures were 70%.

Of all negligent cases were conveyancing. Now that's changed recently. It is gone more into litigation and other areas as well. 

[01:12:42] Malcolm: Good timing for me.

[01:12:44] Colin: Good work coming in. Now, grounded at Kai Tak. Yes. Now this is your latest book is a great book. In a sort of a nutshell, just give our listeners, I want 'em to buy the book to give you in a head on just, just a little bit about it, 

[01:13:00] Malcolm: Alright. Alright. It's nothing to do with land law or landlord and tenant. 

[01:13:02] Colin: I know that, that's it. Yes.

[01:13:04] Malcolm: It's international law, which is sort of diplomacy and politics really.

But it is really a story that I'd followed off and on for decades because I first came across it at Oxford when I was studying public international law. It was a case concerning civil aircraft to the then two mainland Chinese airlines and the Civil War was coming to a head in 1949.

The aircraft were flown to Hong Kong from Shanghai and other places in the mainland to protect them from the advancing communists, and that there ensued a battle for control and ownership of those. In the end, it's about 70 aircraft belonging to the two airlines. And it was a convoluted story that involved characters, politics, diplomacy, and so on.

That went on for a couple of years in Hong Kong. And it was highly embarrassing for the Hong Kong government and the British government because they had this new communist government in China that they obviously didn't know what to expect from. This wonderful colony in Hong Kong, which could be thrown under the bus as it were, by the change.

And they had the Americans who wanted to get those aircraft. The aircraft were originally US second World War production and they felt that the communists should not get these aircraft. So they tried lots of tricks to hold onto the aircraft in Hong Kong. And of course, the Hong Kong government was caught in the middle of all this.

Alexander Grantham, the then Governor, he just wanted the, the planes to go away, but they were stuck there at Kai Tak on the airport apron. Taking a lot of the limited space. And what to do with them.

The answer the British government and the Hong Kong government gave was, it's a matter of law.

It's a matter for the courts. Let the judges decide. So they just stood there, those aircraft rotting away whilst the law took its course. And the Hong Kong judges found in favor of the Communist regime, perhaps for political reasons. And it found its way to Downing Street. In those days, not 10 Downing street, but 12 Downing Street, which was where the Privy Council, the highest court in those days for Hong Kong sat and they decided on the fate of the aircraft ultimately, I won't tell you what they decided 'cause it would spoil the story.

[01:15:57] Colin: It is a good read. Anything in the pipeline? You doing anything in writing? You still got the urge to do some writing at 

moment? 

[01:16:03] Malcolm: I have the urge off and on Colin, but when you are retired, it's very tempting not to sit at the computer all day.

And also daily life. By which I mean things like doing the garden, walking the dogs, doing the washing up. It takes an awful lot of time. I think that the thing that I hadn't appreciated most about retiring to the UK is the lack of domestic full-time help there. So I've become a sort of house slave.

[01:16:34] Colin: That is interesting. Now let's just sort of go back a little bit about. What you did part-time. 'cause it's very similar to one of my last guests, Bill Ricquier. You enjoy cricket very much. Yes. you and I, we've played a fair amount of cricket together, including touring in Malaysia as well.

And we had a good time. I mean, what got you interested into cricket?

[01:16:53] Malcolm: It was an interest of my father and, he got me playing as a lad. And I found that. Cricket has a lot of numbers and I like numbers and it has a lot of history. I like history as well, so this sort of fitted with my interests and personalities and I was never a very good player, but I was a keen one and various stages in my life.

I have ended up playing social crickets for one organization or another. When I arrived in Hong Kong, there was a university crickets side, but the players were pretty good

[01:17:32] Colin: Very, too good for us.

[01:17:34] Malcolm: Some were very good indeed, yes. 'cause they were interested and, talented. And I thought, well, what about the also rans why don't we try and organize a few social games?

And it turned out that in those days there were quite a number of organizations in the government and elsewhere where there was similarly passionate but not terribly talented cricketers. So we set up, didn't we? A sort of small league of cricket sites. 

[01:18:01] Colin: Yeah, playing social games.

Because if we have a pitch, we have a bat, you have a ball. It's quite easy to set up a cricket team. 

[01:18:09] Malcolm: It's the organization is in, getting the 11 players together on a certain day and ata certain place. But once you organize that, then you're away, that's right. 

Yeah. It, 

[01:18:18] Colin: it, it was good for many, many years. We played cricket and some of our great games were our Saturday afternoons. And especially when we played the judiciary with the ex-Chief Justice Jeffrey Ma and his team, and they played the bar. They were great days. Now Malcolm, you know Hong Kong, you've seen Hong Kong. Hong Kong has gone through some difficult times, which we've overcome, and you come back quite a bit, ever a temptation to come back here. 

[01:18:43] Malcolm: Well, doing the washing up sometimes I do think yes, perhaps I'd be better off back in Hong Kong. Mixed feelings, but by and large I think, you know, my time had come to an end in Hong Kong. It was the pandemic period.

And as you know, it was a weird time indeed. And I was personally out out of sympathy with the policies of not just the Hong Kong government, but governments throughout the world. I thought they totally overreacted at that time. And I think generally speaking, most now would agree with that.

So I thought, well, this is an indication really that my time is up. I must go, you know, because I can't travel. If I come back to Hong Kong, I have to spend three weeks in a hotel room eating awful food. This is the antithesis of the Hong Kong. I know. So I just took that as a sign that retirement was due.

However, having settled in the UK now, I can see the attractions of Hong Kong, particularly the low taxation attractions. But, I've come back four times in four years since I retired, and, noticed, of course, the changes and feel that a lot of the vim has gone out of Hong Kong. I don't say Hong Kong is finished, but it's certainly changed.

And I'm not sure it's for the better, but I'm a nostalgic sort of fella, so I look back, as I say on the eighties and nineties, and think how good it was in those days. And I always used to say, you know, don't bet against Hong Kong. 'cause it does spring back is, you are quite right.

But I'm not totally convinced that it will spring back this time to the extent of it has in the past.

[01:20:27] Colin: Well, I mean, markets are going up. The property market has had some very big deals the last couple of weeks from mainland chinese are now able to get, their busy buying again here.

And the property market has always been the center of Hong Kong. We have the new metropolis, which they're building out in the New Territories, which we have acquired. They've done a different deal, they've acquired the land, and that is gonna move very quickly. The greater Bay Area, Shenzhen, I now have this wonderful card where I go into China like everyone else does.

 If I'm Chinese. It is brilliant. It means that it's three minutes going through the border as opposed to 30 minutes in the past. So that's good. And I think Hong Kong is slow. You never will get back to the days of the eighties. You can always sort of hope or think, but it is still my home.

and we like people like you to come back. Malcolm can I thank you so much. It's been a great pleasure chatting with you and joining us on Law & More. Thank you so much.

[01:21:27] Malcolm: My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me, Colin.