Episode 68 - Ronald Sum

In this episode, we speak with high-profile solicitor Ronald Sum, who has vast experience across a range of practice areas, both at home and abroad. Ronald looks back on his Hong Kong upbringing, university days in Australia and his first steps in the legal profession, before offering his thoughts on a range of contemporary issues. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. Stay tuned.

00:40 Welcome and Introduction
01:22 Mediation Week and Peer Cases
02:26 Growing Up and Studying Abroad
03:30 Why Law Not Medicine
05:00 Early Practice War Stories
07:02 Maritime Law and Ship Arrests
08:29 Arbitration Career Begins
10:08 Global Mediation Summit and IOMED
12:43 Sports Law and CAS Journey
17:57 Law Society Council Service
20:13 Launching Hoi Doh and Son
21:53 Advice for Young Lawyers
23:17 Hong Kong Outlook and Closing 

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter          

Established in 1985, Boase Cohen & Collins is an independent law firm equipped with Hong Kong knowledge and global reach. Please visit our website. 

Transcript

[03:40:00] Colin: Hello, everyone. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by solicitor Ronald Sum, a hugely respected senior figure in the legal profession, who's renowned for his skills as an arbitrator and mediator. Ronald is qualified to practice in Hong Kong, the Greater Bay Area, England and Wales, and Australia, and he has conducted many arbitration proceedings in numerous jurisdictions worldwide.

Though he enjoys globe-trotting, his roles, including being a counsel member of the Law Society of Hong Kong and others, keep him very busy. Ronald, welcome to Law & More. And as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?

[03:40:42] Ronald: Thank you, Colin. A lot has been happening. Not only the cases the arbitrations, the mediations. We just had the mediation week? Last week. Going into something very light, not the heavy commercial mediation.

It is for example, peer mediation, what they call peer media. I actually started that couple of years ago, where school kids, okay, they may argue over things, very minute. I actually have done a case where two junior school kids were just arguing for, I think, fifteen Hong Kong dollars.

It just started like that, and then they went on a fight and someone knocked someone over. But the kids, they have no problem. The parents then went into court, okay, and spent millions of dollars. I was the lawyer for one of them. And I thought that it is better to resolve it early, rather than late.

So I was involved in that last week, and I gave a talk on it. Of course, sports mediation as well.

[03:41:45] Colin: Yeah. We'll go back in that. Anyway, Let's go back in time. I want to know a little bit about you, your school days your parents, being brought up in Hong Kong, and how you got into the law.

Help me out with that.

[03:41:58] Ronald: I was born and bred in Hong Kong. Actually, I went to St. Joseph's Primary School, one of those local schools. Just study hard, work hard, and you'll get there someday. And then I moved on to St. Joseph's College. In my days, a lot of people studied there and went overseas to England and Wales to study.

And then that's where I also got my qualifications, in England and Wales. And of course, I went to Australia as well, Sydney, one of the places I enjoyed very much. And I finalized my universities in Sydney, in New South Wales Uni. And it was a fun place. I actually met my wife there.

[03:42:40] Colin: How did you get interested into law? A lot of my guests talk about, "Oh, I got into law because I watched, 'Crown Court' or " LA Law" or a TVB soap opera. What made you become a lawyer?

[03:42:50] Ronald: My father he passed away a good couple of years ago. He was a very prominent accountant. He was in the Inland Revenue and then set up his own firm. He was one of the earlier accountants in Hong Kong. So being a tax accountant? He's very much into laws. And I see him reading very dry tax appeal cases.

People usually read newspapers. He does as well. But he reads tax cases as a hobby. Hardly any person can read tax cases as a hobby. So actually, it prompted me to look into, ooh, this area. The legal area, the finance area. So I thought that? I did relatively well in Sydney.

We call it a High School Certificate, the HSC, for those Australians listening. So when you did quite well, I thought that, "Oh, I can be a doctor." And then I thought sorry for the doctors out there. The smell can be quite repulsive, especially doing anatomy.

I actually did it, okay, for half a year. So I thought, "No." Oh, and then I switched to what we call commerce and law. Accountancy, finance and law. That's how I started it.

[03:44:00] Colin: Yeah. So you'd, you got the itch to, study law. Then you came obviously to do your professional exams here in Hong Kong. PCLL.

[03:44:08] Ronald: No, I actually did the Australian PCLL, did the College of Law. 

[03:44:13] Colin: You did a College of Law, and then you got yourself as a overseas lawyer. 

[03:44:17] Ronald: And then admitted in Hong Kong. And the UK as well.

[03:44:20] Colin: In the UK as well. Early cases you did in practice? What type of work were you doing in the early days?

[03:44:24] Ronald: Funny enough, I had two cases actually I remembered. One was actually a family law case. Obviously as a junior lawyer, as a trainee solicitor the family law side of things it, it went on and it was pretty ugly. It was a very high-profile case.

Obviously, I was not the one in charge of the case. People crying screaming, shouting loads of exhibits, okay being transported to Canberra, okay, in the heart of Australia. The other one is in fact more interesting. It's even more interesting. You remember Lippo Center?

[03:45:00] Colin: Yes, very much

[03:45:01] Ronald: You remember the previous name of Lippo Center? Bond Center? Bond Center.

[03:45:04] Colin: The America's Cup. A great guy who ended up with a little bit of difficulties in the Australian courts- ...if I recollect.

[03:45:12] Ronald: The firm I went to, they were working for the liquidators of Alan Bond.

Yeah. So I was involved in the whole thing. That, that actually it caught my attention because in those days, the economy, it wasn't very great. And that's why the Bond Corporation went under. And after that, there were lots of I would say interesting stuff as a lawyer. Interesting transactions going on where the Picassos went, and the MPF? The amount disappeared from Sydney to where.

So the liquidators were tracing it, the lawyers were tracing it. Of course, I was the junior lawyer and it was fun. In looking at the whole thing, how a as a young man, I looked up to Alan Bond because he actually brought the America's Cup back to Australia.

[03:46:03] Colin: Yeah, and he established Bond University- which still has various campuses in Australia today- ...under the name Bond University.

[03:46:11] Ronald: And the law is pretty good as well. Yeah. The law is pretty good as well. 

[03:46:15] Colin: So the type of work you're doing, you've been to quite a few law firms now, and I'm very interested in your latest venture -which is of-- I'm gonna ask you about.

But when you came back to Hong Kong, what type of practice did you really take up? The area of practice which you enjoyed the most.

[03:46:28] Ronald: Marine law, I actually started my career as a maritime lawyer.

[03:46:31] Colin: I have to say that's one area I know a lot of law, but that's one area I stayed well clear of. Though I did arrest a ship once.

[03:46:39] Ronald: I arrested many ships. Okay. 

[03:46:41] Colin: I only arrested a ship because the whole crew were Filipinos, and then a charitable organization were concerned about the crew. The crew hadn't been paid. So there we are. It wasn't that difficult, but then it got dealt with later.

The crew got paid off, so it was no problem. 

[03:46:53] Ronald: The maritime lien, as we call it. It is actually rather funny because I got offers as a young chap from different law firms. And then I chose a maritime law firm for the reason that their brochure was actually rather nice.

It was rather thick, and they had a vessel on fire. It's actually nicer than other law firms' brochures. It is important to have nice brochures for the listeners out there. So I went on to the maritime law side of things. Very difficult. I must say, one of the most difficult areas of laws of every kind.

Even after thirty-odd years.

[03:47:28] Colin: But you're not now. You've shifted more into commercial corporate deals and bit of litigation. Is that right?

[03:47:36] Ronald: Yes, but I still do a bit of logistics work, which is maritime logistics, supply chains, et cetera. 

[03:47:43] Colin: Yeah. Now obviously, you've grown a practice, and I'll talk about your current, firm a little bit later. But I'm very interested about arbitration and how you got involved in the arbitration area. And how you've utilized that to grow your practice. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

You said about mediation, as a mediator for our listeners, is you're there to mediate, not to judge. That sums it all up. Bring them together and let them find their result. Arbitration is totally different.

[03:48:11] Ronald: Yes. Maritime law for those involved in arbitration if you look at the history of the HKIAC, the Hong Kong International Arbitration Centre. Many decades ago there were only two types of arbitrators there: those construction arbitrators and those maritime arbitrators.

And I did the maritime law. I actually worked in a firm which specializes in maritime law. And I was, I think, one of the earlier ones, if not the earliest one who went to London to did an arbitration, maritime arbitration. I remember this started in the beginning of December, and I spent Christmas in London.

Yes in a small hotel room. Which are nice, but not comparable to home, let's put it that way. So that started my arbitration career because marine was one of the major arbitration thing or the cases that were in Hong Kong. And I built up on it as the maritime law. I started from there and then moved on to more commercial.

Construction is another area of law, but I wouldn't say I'm not interested in it, but I'm just not a specialist, and I never ventured into that area.

[03:49:28] Colin: Yeah. Now, you did mention, 'cause I'm a f-big fan of mediation, that you've just completed the Hong Kong Mediation Week 2026.

The event opened with a school mediation seminar, which was aimed at educating students, and it finished with a global mediation summit. I'm interested in the summit, a little bit about it. I think our listeners are very interested as to what that was all about, what happened.

Obviously, there's a mediation center being set up for international, for countries to try to come together and have their disputes resolved by global international mediation.

Your views on mediation. A lot of people are rather, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes there's a fishing expedition.

By a fishing expedition, I mean that people go into mediation not with the objective of resolving it, but trying to see what the other side really have. Although it's all confidential, they still get the strategy and tactics for the litigation later. Anyway, I'll leave that with you.

[03:50:30] Ronald: I started as one of those persons you mentioned about. There are certain cases, certain types of cases. Marine is one of them for that matter, which can start it off as a mediation.

Okay. Now I'm not a spokesperson for the IOMED, the International Organization for Mediation. The Secretary General now is Miss Teresa Cheng, SC. She was the Secretary for Justice. For those who know her and I've known her for quite some time because she was an engineer, if I recall correctly, and then she was one of the earlier arbitrators on constructions and a keen fan of arbitration and mediation in her early days.

So she went on to do the Secretary for Justice and then now the Secretary General She's very much into mediation as well. For example, the state-to-state in mediation rather than sending warships, which some jurisdiction likes to do. The state-to-state mediation. Investor-state mediation. Not a lot of them, I must say, around. Some of those are very high-profile cases. And of course, the commercial mediation. So these are the three things that, that IOMed? They do nowadays. And funny enough, during the Global Mediation Summit, the first two cases they did were actually marine cases.

So those cases are actually a nice prone to do mediation. Better to start with mediation first and then arbitration.

[03:52:02] Colin: Later on. Now, another area which you are very keen on and I'm very keen on is sports law. You have a great reputation in sports law. It's a topic which has been discussed recently on my pod, where I had Yang Han Hu and Azan Mawar, and they spoke about all the areas of sports law and was really matters as well.

You're chairing the Law Society Committee on Sports Law,

[03:52:28] Ronald: Which you are a member of. 

[03:52:29] Colin: Which I'm very fortunate to be a member, which I like to contribute. Now, i'm interested for your take on it and how you got into that area of sports law.

[03:52:37] Ronald: i'm a CAS member, Court of Arbitration for Sports. I started that nearly a decade ago. I was by chance, funny enough surfing the internet. And then I suddenly come across CAS and the CAS website that I came across was actually not the Court of Arbitration for Sports.

It was some website in Tasmania or whatever. And then I clicked, and the second one was actually the CAS website the sports one. And I clicked into it, and then I was looking at the members. I was already doing arbitration. And then I suddenly found out that there were, in the States, if I recall correctly, forty odd CAS arbitrators.

In Australia around forty odd, thirty odd arbitrators. Spain, don't know why I come across Spain, but the Spain came up in the webpage. Thirty odd arbitrators. It's just public records, okay? And then I click, and I saw Justice Rogers' name there.

[03:53:30] Colin: Oh, yeah. He is very well known. He was a senior counsel, and then he went on to the bench, company judge, Court of Appeal judge. 

[03:53:37] Ronald: My recollection of him was, yes, he's a good rower. And if he punches me, then I'll probably faint it on the floor.

Let's put it that way. But Justice Rogers was actually a CAS member as well until I think two years when his health declined. And he's a nice man. And he actually wrote one of the reference letter for me. And then I thought there was only eight people, eight persons, actually less. Seven person from China. Okay. Hong Kong is on a separate category because if you see Justice Rogers' name there, it says Hong Kong and UK. So I thought I think I should do something about it. So was already doing some sports law anyway because in my early education in St. Joseph's College, for those who know St. Joseph's College, okay, a bunch of nice students some very prominent lawyers in Hong Kong now and judges, they all like to play football. Okay. Sports is a very large part of their education. So I thought I think I should do something about it."

And I'm already doing some sports law and there you go. Very silly to apply for it because they don't have an application form. And Hong Kong was pushing for it some years ago, so I got into it and eventually I got into being a member of the CAS Arbitration and Committee.

[03:54:54] Colin: Now, for our listeners, a little explainer is CAS is normally the top level whereby let's say soccer, you can't go to court. You have to deal with everything through the associations. The associations will make a decision. They will give you a suspension or knock off your points.

The top level who you can appeal to, like in the Olympics or someone's done for drugs, is CAS. And they have rules, and they deal with things very quickly and deal with matters. For example, at various sporting events, you will have CAS ready to deal with issues that arise very quickly.

And the objective of having our sports committee here for the Law Society is to encourage Get people on board to act and deal with and understand what sports law is all about. Discipline, dealing with the associations, trademarks, the whole plethora of how the law comes together. And our objective is really to get everyone focused onto that.

Your role was judging, but what we're trying to do is my role has always been appealing as the advocate, or I have been sitting on disciplinary inquiries in the various sports associations here in Hong Kong. 

[03:55:59] Ronald: You're a referees apparently.

[03:56:00] Colin: A referee, but I referee football. I judge other things. But no, I do the cricket discipline as well. Everybody wants to do sports law, I noticed recently.

[03:56:08] Ronald: Thanks for the Law Society's sports law committee. 

[03:56:10] Colin: Yeah, exactly. Exactly as well.

[03:56:12] Ronald: It is a huge area. I think in the recent World Intellectual Property Organization, they had their event in Hong Kong, I think a couple of weeks ago. Yes. And it's IP and Sports. And if you go out to Hong Kong, especially in summer, you'll see people wearing soccer shirts.

Okay. Yeah. I'm a great fan of Arsenal, let's put it this way.

[03:56:33] Colin: I suspect you may win the Premiership.

[03:56:36] Ronald: Touch wood some wood us. No, but that, that's a huge business. Everyone buying a soccer shirts, or a soccer ball or... using soccer as an example, okay? It is a huge business. You're talking about billions of dollars. You are talking about the broadcasting rights, okay? Which is a huge topic at the moment because FIFA are asking for billions of dollars, okay on the broadcasting rights. And then I think China refuses to pay.

Yes. So they threw people there. I was reading the news. I was not involved in it. Reading the news, and then they immediately slashed the price by half, okay? Which is still quite a bit of money.

[03:57:14] Colin: Yeah. I am going to the World Cup. There's six games early on. So you've been very busy, you're always doing lots of stuff.

And on 2021, you joined the Law Society Council. Now, that takes up a heck of a lot of time and a lot of grief I suspect. What made you do that? The Law Society Council is the body that monitors the lawyers, regulations, discipline, and it promotes the profession, and it's a very important role.

So just tell us a little bit about that. What took you into that area?

[03:57:42] Ronald: For many years, I've been a lawyer for I think thirty-two, thirty-three years. I usually pay my practicing certificate fees. Okay. And actually let me correct that. The firm pays for it. And the involvement with Law Society was somewhat minimal.

And then once you reach a stage that, hmm- maybe I should go and take a look, okay, what I can do or what I should do. Okay. At the beginning, probably more selfishly, I'm wondering what they are doing, okay. Because all I've been doing by paying the fees. Okay. Of course, the professional indemnity as well which can be very expensive.

And just paying the fees. And now I want to go in to find out why they do this, why they do that. And afterwards, okay, maybe I can change some things or share my views, okay. Or some of my friends can come to me and say that Ronald, I think as a practicing solicitor, maybe this should be done better," et cetera.

So that's the initial motive that that I went into the Law Society. Now it's 2021 when there were huge protests, if I recall correctly- yes, -back in 

[03:58:51] Colin: Correct. They were difficult times.

[03:58:52] Ronald: There were difficult times. And many people thought that oh, I went because of the protests or whatever.

In fact the very initial thought was that I want to go and find out what is happening there, and that's what prompted me to go in. 

[03:59:06] Colin: A-and now the Law Society has moved into very nice new premises. I've been there, and it seems as if the president is very open to everybody but it must take up a lot of your time?

[03:59:17] Ronald: Yes. My take on it is that more lawyers working. After all? The Law Society is a regulator, yes, okay. But the, our members are the ones supporting the regulators.

We're self-regulated. So the more people involved, the better. 

[03:59:31] Colin: I agree entirely with you.

Now, I'm very interested in the new firm of Hoi Doh & Son, which you have established. Juliana Doh, who I know very well. She was one of my students when I was lecturing on the PCLL. I am very interested, you're part of associated with a very large firm.

The genesis of all of that, you've done loads of firms you've been with. I'm not gonna mention them all. Bakers and all others. And now you're into th-this firm. The genesis of it, what are you guys up to? What are you doing? 

[04:00:01] Ronald: If you asked me this question twenty years ago, okay, I would be babbling on and on. I think I spent the longest time with DLA Piper- I grew up there practically. When I joined that firm there was only, what, ten people there. When I left, there was only three hundred and thirty people.

Then moved on Bakers, et cetera. And I think, and I've reached a stage-- my father, as a matter of fact he started his own accounting firms with my mom a long time ago with only three people. When he actually retires, there was something, three hundred odd people.

And my brother took over it now. So local firm was not something that I won't do. Let's put it this way. In fact, on the contrary, I prefer to be setting up my own firm because having the family background, et cetera. And I thought that I've reached a stage that it is better, to set up your own practice, doing your own thing and spend more time, okay, probably with the Law Society and the things that I like.

Sports law, for example. At this stage of my career, I prefer to do things that I like. Yes, I do have the financial pressure as well. 

[04:01:10] Colin: You've been heavily involved in Hong Kong. I'm very keen to your views, advice for young solicitors who are about setting out on their career. You've had a very great, interesting career. Very interesting, very diverse, from sports to maritime to arbitration, really wide.

If I came to see you, should I be a lawyer, a solicitor today? Give me advice.

[04:01:33] Ronald: The first day I went to that firm I obviously went to see my mentor and he told me this, he passed away nearly 15 years, 20 years ago. Tell me this, if you want to be rich, don't be a lawyer, but a lawyer is a profession. Okay.

You need to uphold that profession. It's a status how people trust you as a lawyer. And I think, and I recall he gave me an example.

He said that if you go to get a credit card, it is easier for a lawyer to get a credit card than a billionaire because lawyer is a profession. It has that trust on people. You are trustworthy people and don't do anything Breach the trust, okay, not only of your clients, but of your fellow solicitors.

So I remember that after thirty odd years. I still hold that principle. 

[04:02:28] Colin: That's great. I think it's very important that we are, officers of the court, being proper, careful, methodical, and honorable profession which we're in.

Now, Hong Kong has been gone through difficulties in the past. We're now coming out of that. We have the geopolitics at the moment, loads of issues as where we are. Trump has visited China. Hong Kong going forward, optimistic? Where are we now?

What's your view for the Hong Kong?

[04:02:55] Ronald: It is our home. Which is an important word. You have to make it good. You have to make it a nice place. And yes, the geopolitics, Trump is actually in Beijing now doing the ceremonies. But going back to what you said about young lawyers.

So I want to mention that for young lawyers, you have to keep plodding and plodding on. Do things whether you like it or not, so that to equip yourself. Don't have a mindset of, just staying in Hong Kong? Going back to China. Have a international mindset, going out to find out what others do.

And through that, okay, you are already an ambassador of Hong Kong, and then you bring your international experience back to Hong Kong to benefit your fellow solicitors. And I am very optimistic. If everyone... I'm only talking about the legal professions, of course, it, this applies to many professions as well.

If everyone does it, then I'm quite certain that our home will be a much better place. 

[04:03:56] Colin: Ronald, fabulous words. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Law and More.

[04:04:05] Ronald: Thank you, Colin. Thank you.