134 - Finding Grace: The Power of a Camino Pilgrimage Walked for Someone Else - Rocco Rossi

A stranger walks the Camino de Santiago for you, puts your name on a Compostela, and mails it to your door. What would that do to your life? Leigh sits down with her longtime friend Rocco Rossi, a Camino veteran with 23 Caminos behind him, to talk about the true tradition that shaped his debut novel Finding Grace: Vicari Pro Camino, walking on behalf of someone else as an act of blessing, memory, and love.<br><br>We dig into the real-life tragedy that sparked Rocco’s commitment to walking in another person’s name, and why the Camino can hold grief without erasing it. Rocco shares how community, ritual, and simple kindness can become a lifeline, especially for people carrying addiction, loss, or shame. We also talk about the “great leveler” effect of the Camino Frances, where a job title or bank account means nothing and what matters is the person you are over a shared meal or a few quiet kilometers.<br><br>Then we step into some of the most powerful Camino moments from the book and from lived experience: the humbling foot washing ritual at San Nicolas, the deep stillness that modern life steals from us, and why the Meseta can be where the real inner pilgrimage finally begins. If you’re planning a pilgrimage to Santiago, or looking for a Camino book that feels like real Camino life, you’ll come away with fresh motivation and a bigger view of what walking can be.<br><br>Subscribe for more Camino stories, share this with a friend who needs a little grace, and leave a review so more pilgrims can find the show.

Get the book - Finding Grace : https://a.co/d/0ceHhMhl

Connect with Rocco: https://www.roccorossi.com/

Episode 40 with Rocco Rossi : https://podcasts.apple.com/th/podcast/40-rocco-rossi-13-caminos-and-still-counting/id1562037974?i=1000548367415

Transcript

Welcome Back Rocco Rossi

Leigh 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome to episode 134. Today we have Rocco Rossi back with us. We're talking about his very first novel that's out, Finding Grace, one of our most popular guests ever on the show. And he's probably been on the most times as well. So let's get to it. Many of you might have heard the very first interview that Rocco and I did, and that was back in I think the winter of 2021. He had contacted me, sent me this lovely email, and I was like, who is this pilgrim? Like, he sounds so interesting. And from that moment on, Rocco and I have become great friends. And it is an honor to call him that. I feel like I've walked a million Caminos with him, but not one yet have we walked together. But we've been on this journey together since 21, actually. That episode, if you want to go back and listen, is episode number 40. And uh during that interview, you will hear Rocco's backstory of his very, very first Camino out of what are you at now? Like 23, Rocco?

Rocco 1:03

23, and I'm leaving shortly for 24, the Camino Olvidado from uh Bill Bao.

Leigh 1:10

All right. Okay, the veteran

The Origins Of Walking For Others

Leigh 1:12

of veterans here, a walking caminos. Can you begin with uh the name of the book is Finding Grace? It's already a bestseller and several categories. So people go out, get this book. I think the story is super creative. So, how did you come up with the theme and with this whole idea of the backstory of the book?

Rocco 1:32

Well, um, at the core of the of the book is the concept of the Vicari Pro Camino, uh, walking a Camino on behalf of someone else. Um, and this is something that uh we've long been able to do. Um uh and during the Renaissance, it got um systematized, professionalized, if you will, because that was the time of the sale of indulgences, and uh and a class of professional pilgrims arose who would walk on behalf of wealthy people, who would give them half up front and half when they returned with the blessing from Santiago. Thankfully, the sale of indulgences has come to an end. But this um practice of asking that another another name be added to the Compostela continues to this day. And um it occurred to me out of a tragedy, um, really in my first Camino, because I had been inspired to walk the Camino by an incredible article by a Canadian journalist by the name of Rob Crew. And um I had talked to him to get some details before leaving. And he'd also talked to this other Canadian couple in Toronto, and they were leaving around the same time. And so he said, Why don't the three of you start it off together? You get your feet under you and then see how it goes. Their schedule didn't fit with mine. Um, I left earlier, I got back, I took Rob out to lunch to thank him for all that he'd done to inspire me to go. And I asked about Mary Catherine and uh and Harry, and his face fell. And um he said, sadly, um they were crossing the road on the way to Estella on the Camino Frances. They were hit by a drunk driver, she was killed instantly. Um, Harry went to the hospital, got out, just come back. Um, and I had heard about this Vicari Pro concept. So the following year, I went back and walked from where she fell um just outside of Estella to Santiago, got the Compostela in her name, came back, gave that to Harry. And and an idea was born that, you know, what if in this crazy world where so much bad stuff is happening, what if there were people dedicated to walking the Camino continuously and and sending blessings out to people, um anonymously or otherwise, um, who are suffering some trauma. And um, and so that's been playing in me, and that's that's at the at the core of this book.

Leigh 4:27

Yeah. How many times have you walked in someone's name?

Rocco 4:32

Um basically every one after that first uh that first one. Not all of my Caminos have ended in in Santiago, so not not all of them have gotten um Campostelas, but uh but 22. And the one that I'll be doing uh next is um uh I'll be thinking about a a classmate of mine who um sadly died of suicide. And um and so I'm going to um going to walk and get the um Compostela in his name and and and bring that back to

Vicari Pro And Self Care

Rocco 5:14

his family.

Leigh 5:15

Wow. You know, Rocco, I've only had that I know of uh one time that someone has walked on my behalf, and that was back uh right after COVID with Stephen Shields and Johnny Walker, two good friends of both of ours. They decided to walk um at the kind of near the end of COVID and offered to leave some blessings at Cruz de Faro for anyone that wanted to participate. And I did that at the time. I was following them on social media, you know, and I was in the US and brokenhearted, I couldn't be in Spain. And I will never get the forget the feeling of knowing that they were out there walking for us. You know, it was finally safe for them to go out on the Camino and they were allowed to walk at that time in Spain. And later when I met them, I was so touched because we got to talk about that journey. So I wonder have you ever had anyone that you know that has walked in your name or um or any responses from people from families when you have walked in someone's name? What that was like, what did they say?

Rocco 6:19

Yeah, I mean, both uh um I've been blessed. Someone who was very dear to me um uh walked on on my behalf, um, and um she subsequently passed away uh from from cancer. And um to think that, you know, at a time she was fighting her own uh battle against this horrible disease, that um, you know, she was thinking of some issues that I was having, and enough that uh she would do that on my behalf um was incredibly moving. And it's it's um it's part of the power, I think, of the Vicary Pro. Because sometimes um, you know, there's there's a little too much I in Camino. And uh and and there's a good reason for that because you know, it's certainly the the first time you're going, it's it's you're sorting out um your own issues, you're dealing with things, and that's important and right. And I don't consider that egotistical at all. I'm I'm a huge believer in that announcement at the beginning of every flight. Uh, in case of decompression, masks will fall from the ceiling. Make sure you put it on yourself first before you try to help anybody else. You need that oxygen. It is not selfish to embark upon self-care. But it shouldn't be just self-care forever. Um, because we are deeply connected to one another in this family of humanity and this sharing of the divinity um that we all uh participate in. And so I find that by uh by getting my Compostela Bacari Pro, it's it's nothing less for me, it's more, in fact. And it's a feeling of fulfilling a purpose that we all share.

Leigh 8:23

Yes. You know, and I think that's when we are veteran walkers, when we've already done that first one, that very first time, right? And then we go on these others. I I've really been thinking a lot over the last year about how do we then give back? What do we do as a result of becoming a pilgrim? And, you know, usually that first camino, you're you're getting a lot from the Cino, you're getting a lot from fellow walkers, and that still always happens every Camino. But I think as a veteran walker, there's so much more you can do with what you're experiencing and how you can help other pilgrims. And I think that is where your book comes in. I think finding grace really gets back to the heart of the camino and what it's about. You know, I think sometimes with the popularity of the camino, it can become like, oh, it's just one big party and you're just going on this fitness walk and you're gonna have so much fun and you're gonna make family members, and all those things do happen. That's true. They can happen, let's say that.

Rocco 9:18

Yeah.

Leigh 9:18

But I think there is a deeper meaning, and that's one of the things I really loved when I first read your book was you really got down to the heart of the matter. And I love that about it. So let's start with you and I talked before this interview about you sharing a couple of passages. And I want folks out there who haven't yet had a chance to read it, or maybe they have already read it, because wow, it's already popular, but I want to give them a taste of what we're talking about. So let's do the first passage you selected and then we'll chat

A Reading On Addiction And Grace

Leigh 9:49

about it. So from Finding Grace, Rocco Rossi.

Rocco 9:53

Finally, Grace spoke. I had people once, she said, her voice so soft I had to lean into here. A family I couldn't save because I was too busy trying to save myself. I was an ER nurse. The hours and responsibilities were overwhelming. I started taking a little something now and then to get me through. Before I knew it, I was an addict. I knew exactly which meds to take from the cart to make the world stop hurting. She paused and looked off into the distance. Mark and Sarah, my husband and daughter. Sarah would be 24 now. The last time I saw her, she was six, screaming because I was being taken away in a police car, lost my license, lost my career, my marriage, my house, my self-respect. Her eyes, usually so peaceful, were now inexpressibly sad. People get it wrong, she said. They think I'm strong. She smiled faintly. I walked because standing still scares me. I didn't know what to say. I was one of those people who had got it wrong, but I had to say something. How did you stop? Rehab didn't take the first time. I couldn't stop alone. I needed counselors, support groups, people who'd walked this path before me. And I needed a purpose bigger than my pain. Nothing I tried lasted, she said. Not the pills, not the wine, not the well-intended support. She washed her hands for a moment. Whatever was wrong with me, nothing could reach it. Her words were touching my pain. I used to believe, I said, before, but what kind of God lets good people die and keeps me? I don't think faith answers the question, she said. I think it just keeps you from turning away from them. Addiction is like drowning, she said, staring at her hands. You pull down anyone who tries to save you. I lost everything, the people I loved most, she paused. I don't blame them for leaving. They had to save themselves from me. My first Camino I made it six days. Six days and I was ready to quit. Not because of the walking, but because of the kindness. She smiled at my confused expression. I wasn't used to it. People offering help, sharing food. A German woman gave me her blister kit when she saw me limping. A Spanish hospitalero let me stay an extra night when I had a fever. I'd spent so long drowning that I'd forgotten people could be good. That's when you decided to walk for others. One day I realized I wasn't the only one drowning. Walking for others gave me a shore to swim to and the energy to do it. I didn't get forgiven. I just got a second chance. And uh she's a marvelous heroine in the in the book.

Leigh 12:58

Yeah. Okay, so let's go back and kind of talk about the characters here. So uh Grace is speaking to someone. So tell the tell the viewers and listeners who is she talking to and what's going on. Set the scene for us.

Tony Bird And The Unknown Compostela

Rocco 13:10

Yeah, um, she's talking uh to a fellow um who has a dual identity. Uh he's known to the world as Tony Bird, um, a big-time successful Wall Street financier. Uh, but that wasn't the name he was born with. He was born Antonio Aucello, Anthony Aucello. Um, but when he was in college, he realized to fit into the Anglo business community, he needed a less ethnic-sounding name. Uh, and so he did a virtual translation of uh Anthony Aucello and called himself Tony Bird. And interestingly, when he suffers um a catastrophic tragedy at the beginning of the book, um and realizes uh that after all of these years of climbing the corporate ladder and getting to the top, that maybe the ladder was leaning up against the wrong building, uh, he goes into uh an incredible crisis of the mind, the soul, the spirit, and um seeks to drown himself in alcohol uh in a resort that his unlimited expense account can more than cover. And at his absolute low point, he receives this uh mysterious cardboard tube in the mail. And inside is a parchment uh with Latin text, uh which he doesn't speak, but he puts it into the Google machine and realizes that this is a Compostela, a written blessing given to those who complete the Camino de Santiago. And further investigation of the wording shows his name, but not his current name, his birth name, Anthony Aucello. And someone had done this Camino Vicari pro for him. Um, and uh a woman whose Latin name translates to Grace Land, um Terra Grazia. And um he knows no grace land, uh, he knows of no reason anyone would have done this on his behalf, and it eats at him. And having hit bottom, it's a you know, it's a it's a lifeline to grab hold of. And so he decides to go to Pamplona and figure out what this is all, what this is all about. And along the way, he encounters all kinds of characters, including ultimately uh Grace, but um other pilgrims who have their own stories and their own lessons um to teach him.

Leigh 16:12

Yeah, I absolutely love that part of the novel. You know, imagining what it would be like to receive this tube and open it up with his Compostella. And at this point, he doesn't even know what the Camino really is.

Rocco 16:26

No idea at all, just what Google is saying.

Leigh 16:31

Yeah. And you talk about the lifeline, and you know, I think that's that opportunity we're talking about that we all have as pilgrims is this offering of a lifeline of some way, right? So when you think about that passage you just read, and and you're talking, Grace is talking about her addiction and everything that has happened in her life, and you know, grief is something we all face, isn't it? You know, it's the universal connection.

Rocco 16:58

Yeah.

Leigh 16:59

Um, what about this passage really touched you as it as it came,

Grief Shared On The Camino

Leigh 17:03

when the words came onto the page? What did it mean to you?

Rocco 17:09

Well, as you say, um, while the stories may be difficult, um the reality is all of us suffer some um pain and anguish in life earlier or later. You know, the Buddhists say that life is suffering, and it's not to say you suffer all the time. Um, like life would be impossible if that were the case. But um but we have those struggles, whether it's even simply illness and aging and ultimately death, um, not just of yourself, but of those you love around you. Um and so you struggle with those things, and that's part of our universal humanity, what we what we share with one another. And when we um expose our own pain, um it gives permission to the other to share theirs as well. And it's in the it's not, I'm not a believer that grief goes away. It's just that um you learn to carry it differently. You know, I don't want to think of it. There's a there's a beautiful book out right now um called Dispatches from Grief by a woman, Danielle Crittenden, uh, who's uh who's a writer and um married to David Frauma, another uh writer and and political pundit and analyst. And they lost an adult daughter um to um uh to uh a brain tumor. And um and so she's written this book, and and it it's it's again, it shares that that sense of, you know, we can't make grief go away, uh, but we come to carry it and understand it in different ways. Um and that's something that um, you know, certainly I felt from the early moments of uh of the Camino. And they're particularly strong in those evenings, as you know, particularly in some of the more traditional donativo um albergues like Granion and Tos Santos, um, where in a communal meal there's there's lots of uh lots of sharing, and then in the rituals and traditions they have, um, which are a couple of the you know the scenes in the in the book, um, which is all around uh all around that mutual sharing. And and and it's beautiful because, you know, as you know, in the Camino, it doesn't matter, you know, Tony's wealth is immaterial in the Camino. Um it's what kind of a person is he? Is he someone others want to have a glass of wine with, uh, share a meal with, walk a few kilometers with. Um, and that's the choice we make each and every day with the people around us in life. So it's uh it's a wonderful school for that.

Leigh 20:22

Yeah. You know, I always say the Camino is like the great leveler, right? Like you can be walking with a CEO to, you know, somebody who's just, you know, finished grad school or still in high school. Um, you don't really even sometimes know what someone's background is, but we're all, I think there's we all feel a little more equal when we're out there, right? 100%. Yeah. And it doesn't really matter your title, but yeah, for your main character, Tony, you know, his character had meant or his title had meant so much for him his whole life.

Rocco 20:53

It was his identity. It was what he had struggled for, it's what he'd sacrificed friendship and family and his own name to try to achieve. And achieving it um through crisis uh exposes to him how little deep meaning it actually has for him. Um, that it's not um that it's not his ultimate purpose and therefore is not going to be satisfying because there will be hard times in life. And so we want our activities in our life to resonate with something that actually is bigger than ourselves and and provides us and reinforces our sense of purpose.

Leigh 21:45

Yeah. Well, you know, if folks go back and listen uh to episode 40, your very first one, and they hear your original story, you were going through a lot of grief at that time, uh, and which led you to walk your very first Camino and of Course, you know, life is what I think Buddha said, a thousand joys and a thousand sorrows. So a lot of life has happened in between then and now. I wonder, Rocco, if you could express to viewers and listeners how has your grief changed shape over the years and how have your caminos helped you? And even writing this book, I would imagine that was like a camino in itself.

Rocco 22:25

100%. And you know, each um each camino, beyond being one where um in doing it Vicary Pro, you're you're thinking about uh the person or persons you're walking on behalf. And and on those days that are are tough, um you learn to understand what incredible blessings you have, because typically you're walking on behalf of someone who is facing even greater challenges. Um and uh and so each one in in walking for others, you're also walking for yourself. Um and that helps to take the edge off that grief, to replace it um uh within uh within your psyche. Again, not that it disappears, but it's held differently. Um and uh and it's also um prioritized in a in a different way um so that you are able to focus uh also on those thousand blessings that the Buddha talks about. Um and there and there are. I mean, you know, the very fact that that we're privileged enough to be able to leave the United States or Canada or anywhere else and go and walk me know, uh, you know, even if we're staying in albergues and and and having the most inexpensive pilgrim meals possible, you know, it's still uh not necessarily in the reach of everyone. And and so that's a that's a privilege in of itself. And and then people sharing their um their issues, what what I've found as well and what what hopefully people see in the in the book um is also in in sharing your grief. The interesting thing is um that you literally are sharing it because others around you are taking on some of that grief. They're they're they're taking some of that load off. Uh and you had um you had mentioned, you know, Johnny Walker and Stephen um talking about leaving blessings at the Cruz de Faroe. That's a particularly powerful place, as you know, um, because that cairn of stones and mementos and and you know, bits of jewelry and rosaries and photographs is a collection of literally millions over the centuries, millions of people's hopes and prayers and fears and um and tragedies. And it is impossible to come close to that place and not feel the residual energy of all of that. Um, and it's not all happy, happy. Um, but when you leave your peace there, that whole collectivity is taking up part of the grief and in a in an interesting way lessens it for you. Yes. Um, and uh I think that's pretty powerful stuff.

Leigh 25:55

Well said. I couldn't agree more. Rocco, you've walked a lot of times and now you've written this novel. You know, someone could say, you know, why does he keep walking? Why does he keep doing this? And I wonder what kind of sacrifices have you made in your own life to really, I think you've made a commitment to the Camino. You you have really made a commitment to this life, and and now uh really coming out with this book and showing what can be possible by walking a Camino.

Why Keep Walking And What It Costs

Leigh 26:30

Uh but on the flip side, what have you sacrificed maybe personally to choose this path in life?

Rocco 26:39

Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I mean, I'll unpack it a little bit to the first. And I often get asked, you know, 23 going on 24, and God willing, there'll be many more as long as my knees and feet hold up. Um, I ask a question in turn to people and and say, you know, do you have uh a favorite friend? Um, do you have a food that you love, you know, chocolate cake, pizza? Are you only ever going to limit yourself to one piece or one visit to that friend? If something or someone brings you joy, the real question is, why aren't you seeing more of them? Why aren't you going more often? Um and um and so for me, uh, that is incredible joy. And and the sacrifices over time, you know, when I was working full time, uh, very often people would say, because I would go and, you know, I'm gone for at least three weeks or a month. And if you're a hard-charging business person or even a leader in the not-for-profit, people will look at you a little bit askance and say, well, you know, how can you afford to leave? Like, is it irresponsible to leave uh people for several weeks when you have duties, when you have responsibilities? It's a reasonable question. Yeah. And my response is that we unfortunately often confuse activity for actual progress in forward motion. So I could be at work and I could be punching the clock in the morning and at night and be there more hours than anybody else. That doesn't mean I'm getting more work done because there's diminishing marginal return. And what I've always found coming back after a Camino is I am bloody Superman. Like I am so energized that my productivity is off the charts. And I actually get more done than I would have, you know, seemingly doing the right thing is staying at the desk and continuing to do the work and not being productive. And it's similar also in relationships, because obviously, you know, I leave my family most of the time. My son has come with me once, and that was a blessing. Um, but what they see is when I return, um, again, it's that it's that energy, it's that joy, it's that happiness. Um and um it's the it's the resonance. It's like I had um an early manager who talked about the say do principle. Uh, and the say do principle is that you should in fact do what you're saying. Your action should back up your words. So if you're talking about sharing and authenticity and and the connectivity to other people, but you don't live that life day to day, the say do gets broken. And the people around you who know you best see that dissonance, hear that dissonance. Uh, and when you can line up the say and the do, um you bring your better self to the table. And uh, and so that's the you know, that's the reward for the price that is paid from separation and and from time away from whether it's family or job or friends, um, because you come back refreshed.

Leigh 30:32

Yeah. Well, I mean, you could have been like your lead character, Tony, and you know, minus the addiction part, but you know, spending your time at a resort, you know. But I do you not on a beach vacation. Yeah, would you come back and refresh?

Rocco 30:50

No. Um, because um there's a few things. One is there's an incredible power to making your body work day in and day out in the walking.

Leigh 31:05

Yeah.

Rocco 31:05

Um, the the neuroscientists will tell you that part of the reason that that uh our minds get so confused and and and are being flooded with all kinds of messages, uh, is you know, both hemispheres are kind of uh triggering off and listening to data and sensation, and and it triggers all kinds of chain reactions. Simple repetitive physical action actually freezes or engages the left hemisphere of the brain, which frees the right hemisphere to meditate. Um, and you know, lying on a beach doesn't do that uh for me. The the thoughts are still invading my head, as as nice as the beach might be, and uh, you know, as wonderful as the drinks may be, uh, that um that doesn't do it for me. But you know, 20, 25, 30 kilometers of walking with my backpack. And um and again, it puts me into a meditative state. It helps me to enjoy everything even more. It's it like it's like your senses are heightened, and certainly even simple things like like, you know, in our day-to-day lives, we eat three meals a day because that's what you do. On the Camino, you eat because you are hungry, because your body has worked, and food tastes so much better, and uh and you appreciate it so much more. And and it's like um, you know, putting your life and every day on 11 instead of you know on the scale of one to 10. Uh, and then of course, it's just the generosity of people around you and being reminded, you know, as Grace said in that passage, being reminded that generally people are very good and want to do good. Um, and we lose that when we're listening to a 24-7 stream of news that focuses on the ugliest, on the crassest, on the uh most tragic stuff, uh, and not just the simple mercies of, you know what, I come to the alberga and I've got some extra cheese, and that person has an extra loaf of bread, and so-and-so has brought a bottle of wine, and it all goes into the center, and we all enjoy that together. And my gosh, there's no beach on the world that gives you uh that gives you that unless maybe it's you know, you get to finish there and you hang out on the beach with friends doing the same thing.

Leigh 34:01

Yes,

Foot Washing As Radical Hospitality

Leigh 34:02

that is the truth. Let's do another passage from the book.

Rocco 34:06

Sure. This evening he said in accented English, we offer the washing of feet. It is an old tradition of hospitality. If you wish to participate, please come to the chapel at seven o'clock. I don't think I started. You're going, Grace said firmly. This is important. At seven, I went to the small, dimly lit chapel at one end of the building with all the other pilgrims, including Grace. Simple wooden benches lined the walls. In the center of the room sat several monks, each with a basin of water, clean towels, and small jars of ointment. A young monk gestured to the bench in front of him. I sat, my stomach tight with embarrassment. He knelt before me. This monk, this servant of God, just kneeling in front of me. I wanted to pull away to tell him I'd do it myself, but his hands were already reaching for my socks. When he pulled them off, I stared at my feet as if they belonged to someone else. These weren't my feet. My feet were well maintained, professionally pedicured every few weeks at a spa in Midtown where they served cucumber water, played Zen ambient music, and treated your feet as if they were precious objects. The whole experience had taken an hour and cost $120 plus tip, and I'd walked out every time feeling as if I were floating. I'm sorry I whispered, I should have. He looked up. I have washed the feet of a thousand pilgrims. Each one carries the wounds of their journey. There is no shame in this. He lowered my feet into the basin. The water was warm. The sting made me gasp, but when the warmth began, it began soothing. He cupped water in his hands and poured it over my foot, the gentle splash filling the silence. The water turned pink. When he had done the same with my other foot, he dried my feet with a towel so soft I hardly felt it at all. He opened the jar of ointment. The scent of eucalyptus filled the air. He applied it to each wound with incredible tenderness. He wrapped my feet in clean gauze, then placed both hands on the bandages and bowed his head. Lord bless this pilgrim, heal his wounds of body and soul. May each step be a prayer, each pain a purification. May he learn to receive love without earning it, because that is your grace. Amen. It was beautiful. Embarrassment gave way to gratitude. The pilgrim looked up, he smiled and squeezed my ankle gently, then moved on to the next pilgrim. I sat there, unable to move. And that, um, although you know fiction in a novel, is um taken from a lived experience in a beautiful um little uh albergue uh chapel church, just past Castro Heres on the on the Frances uh San Nicolas, just as you're um walking into Palencia, and it's a it's a small place, a humble place run by a Cistercian society. And um and it's just spectacular. It's only open in the summer because they have no heat, they use uh solar panels, and they maintain the tradition of the washing of feet, and um uh it's it's a humbling thing to see someone there, you know, washing your injured, smelly uh feet and seeing it as an act of service uh for which there should be no embarrassment, um, just um an act of of um mutual respect and and service to the other.

Leigh 38:19

Yeah. How did you feel when you had your feet washed?

Rocco 38:23

Um a little bit uh like you know, Anthony explains, um, you know, initially embarrassment I had, that was my first time, and so I I uh had not uh developed good um uh foot care. I I started the Camino with heavy hiking boots. I thought, you know, I'm going on this big hike and totally unnecessary, but they they uh made my feet so hot, and uh so I had tons of blisters by the time I hit the Mercedes. And uh and what was incredible is the day after it was like the pain had gone away.

Leigh 39:04

Whoa.

Rocco 39:07

Whoa. Very, very special place.

Leigh 39:12

Maybe one of those Camino miracles.

Rocco 39:16

Well, it's it's a theme that um uh that I address in the book as um as well. Um that uh I'm I'm not among those who kind of anthropomorphize the the Camino and give it the power. I I believe we're all creatures of God and the magic is in what is within us um because we share in the divine. And what the Camino gives us, though, is the time and space to explore that magic that we all have. Um and uh yeah, it's uh you know, one of the characters in in the book is asked by Tony, do you think the Camino changes people? And he says, the Camino doesn't change anyone, it gives you the opportunity to change.

Leigh 40:11

Yes. I feel like when you know when you're on the Camino, all this outside noise goes away.

Rocco 40:17

No.

Leigh 40:18

And I think about it often. Uh, you know, I've had some longer periods now in between Caminos, and I think about, you know, maybe these moments are happening all the time all around us in everyday life. It's just we're too busy, it's too noisy, we don't see them, we don't hear them. It and and I feel like the Caminos you said earlier provides this space where maybe we see things a little bit differently or we're able to see with more clarity. And I think 100% agree.

Rocco 40:50

There is um, there's a beautiful Psalm 4610 that begins, be still and know that I am God. And I've always believed that Nietzsche got it wrong, that God is not dead, but stillness is under attack. And so it makes it hard for us to reach God through the noise, through the distraction. And you're absolutely right. Um that uh time of I I

Stillness Solitude And The Meseta

Rocco 41:20

love being with pilgrims at the end of the day in the albergue, sharing stories, eating, drinking together, celebrating life. Um, but during the day, that that time is sacred to me. Um and uh I want the quiet. I want uh it's one of the things I love about the Meseda. A lot of people, you know, this is 210 kilometers from Burgos to Leon of heat, wheat, and sore feet. Uh I mean it's it's pretty monotone, it's pretty flat. There are some ups and downs, but nothing like the other sections of the Camino, uh Frances, at least. And um, but it's where the real work of the Frances gets done, I think, because it's monotone around you, um, it forces you inward. And that inner Camino, that inner pilgrimage happens in a much more powerful way than when you're able to look at, you know, the gorgeous vineyards of the Rioja or the mountains of Galicia or uh yeah, the the wooded mountains in in the Navarre. So yeah, it's it's a special place.

Leigh 42:41

I agree. And I encourage anyone that's listening to this, if you haven't walked yet, or if you skipped that part of your first Camino, what do people do, right? Because I think it's a little overwhelming. Uh you need to get all these warnings. Oh, there won't be food, it won't be any, you won't be able to get anything to drink for the next, you know, stage or whatever of your Camino. And people know that that silence is coming and there isn't a lot. I mean, I still thought it was beautiful, right? But in a different way. Right. Um, but I think that silence, you know, I always encourage pilgrims, and I know you're getting to walk, is you know, you might have to create that time for solitude on the Camino because it's easy to get into a Camino family and have a noisy Camino just like you do at home. I believe the Camino does give you what you need and and everything, but I do think sometimes you have to have an intention of making sure you have that solitude every day. Because, you know, the whole day could go by and you might miss it because you've been spending the whole day talking with someone. Maybe that talk's productive, but also it might be more productive to have had a day of solitude or not necessarily productive, but good for the good for the soul.

Rocco 43:56

In solitude, and look, I I speak for myself as well. Well, for the first time, I I was scared of that. Yeah. You know, like we are conditioned from a young age that being on your own is a punishment. I mean, short of capital punishment, what's the worst thing we can do to a prisoner? Solitary confinement. What happens in your disciplined and you're sent to your room or sent to the corner. And um and and so we're taught that being alone is is a punishment, is a horrible thing. But if you open yourself up, you learn that being alone is not the same thing as being lonely. Um, because it is in that alone time that you can have those conversations, that you can process um the things that that you're wrestling with, the baggage that we carry. You know, we often at the end of the of the day and the albergues talk about the baggage of in our packs of, you know, who's carrying what and what's necessary. And yes, the material baggage is important, but it's the emotional baggage that we carry that's that's in fact

Praise For The Book And Why A Novel

Rocco 45:15

heavier than the material stuff. Um, and it's only in that processing time that you really get a chance to whack away at it.

Leigh 45:26

Yeah. Raka, you've been receiving a lot of very positive feedback uh uh about your book, in particular from the ambassador. I wonder if you could kind of share what it felt like and maybe paraphrase a little bit about what they said about your book.

Rocco 45:43

Yeah, well, the the Spanish ambassador to Canada uh uh um loved the book and he uh he wrote a very effusive um uh passage and and uh and uh a short piece I have on the on the back of the book. But as as wonderful and as gracious and as grateful as I am of of that, for me, um, you know, one of my junior high school teachers just sent me a note and put it on her Facebook page, yeah. And uh saying, you know, I've just read a book and full disclosure, it's by a former student of mine. And uh when I met him, he was 13, I was 23, and we all knew that you know he would make something of his uh of his life.

Leigh 46:38

Um tears to my eyes.

Rocco 46:44

That's gonna stay with me. And I recommend to all of my friends and family that they read it, and and that's worth 50 ambassadors.

Leigh 46:53

Oh my god. Oh my god, I hope you printed this out and framed it. To have a middle school teacher do that, yeah.

Rocco 47:02

It was uh it was really uh really an emotional moment. Oh yeah. So yeah, you don't know. I mean, you start this kind of project and you have no idea how it's gonna be received. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, 95% of writing is about processing it for yourself. And I didn't want to, I didn't want to do another memoir, I didn't want to do another journal, although, you know, in each of my 23 Caminos to date, I've journaled. And so I had a ton of material and I was fortunate enough to do podcasts with with you and other wonderful friends in the Camino community globally, and I've written uh articles in newspapers and even a chapter in a book. Um but I didn't want to do a memoir because I thought doing the novel allows me to allow the reader to see themselves in it. You know, a memoir is is deeply personal, and it's Lee's journey or it's Rocco's journey, and I want this to be your journey. Um obviously I can't write about stuff I don't know. So um people whose names have been changed and circumstances, those are people I've met or amalgams of people I've met over the years, and uh the places and and and some of the experiences. Um, but it's with the hope that that you see yourself in it and and get inspired to to walk. And my gosh, walking on behalf of someone else, um, because we can all use a little more grace in the world.

Leigh 48:51

Can't we though? I can attest that uh in reading your book, uh, there were many times I would come across one of the stories in the book, and I knew it was based on stuff that had really happened to you because we talked about it in real life, you know, just small stories about the farmers you've run into and and different things. And I just can remember just smiling so broadly. I'm like, oh, he got that story in there, you know. Um, so I can tell everyone that uh, you know, this book is based on some lived experiences, very real Camino stuff. And um, you know, if you're wondering what the Camino is really like, this is that book. This is a slice of real Camino life. If you're getting ready to walk Camino 24 tomorrow, you're going to Spain. How are you feeling? Because now you're going to walk after having put this creative gift out into the world.

Rocco 49:51

Well, um, you know, I um the toddler has been launched, right? Like the the book will do what the book will do at this point. Um and uh and I've loved and been overwhelmed

Camino 24 Plans And Cover Art

Rocco 50:05

by the reaction, and it's been it's been great doing podcasts and radio and even a couple of TV interviews. Um uh, but um yeah, I it's been such an intense period, the writing, editing, then publishing it and the initial launch, and um and I'm exhausted and I need um I need to put that mask on uh again. Um and so uh this is just the just the ticket. And uh my goal uh is to get um to uh to Santiago for the 25th, for the day of of St. James, and uh be meeting up with Johnny Walker and uh and a few others and uh um uh in front of the the cathedral. I'm very much looking forward to that.

Leigh 51:00

Yeah. Well, I know Johnny Walker loves your book as much as I do. Why don't you hold up a copy of it so we can show everyone and talk a little bit about how uh the design of the cover, because I I love there's so many side stories of your book. We could go for hours.

Rocco 51:16

Well, um the the the joy of this project is it's been really a community project in many ways. And so the cover is is um is essentially based on uh an original painting done by a dear friend and fellow pilgrim uh Michael Matalo. Um and uh he I had sent him an early draft of the book, and and it just inspired him to paint this painting. Uh and uh and he sent it to me and uh and and I said, you know, can I use it for the cover? And he said, absolutely. And and that wasn't enough. He then uh designed um a uh a sayo.

Leigh 52:04

Oh, oh my gosh.

Rocco 52:06

Yeah, for inside. So um, as you know, as you're walking the the Camino, your pilgrim passport gets stamped uh each night in albergues and um churches and so on as you go along. Uh and he decided to create one for uh uh for the book. And so as I've been signing uh the books and giving them away, um I've been stamping the the sayo in it and then uh and then saying a few words, and and that's been that's been super cool as well.

Leigh 52:40

Love it. Well, yeah, we need you to go get that mask back on so we can uh book part two of Finding Grace.

Rocco 52:48

Or I will see, I've got um aside from the all of the journaling, I I I do have something in the neighborhood of 25,000 photographs uh that I've taken. And so I'm thinking about I'm thinking about a coffee table photo book. Uh just kind of a compino companion.

Leigh 53:08

Nice, nice. Well, Rocco, I am just delighted for you. I'm delighted for the Camino community to now have this book. And as you and I have talked about many times, you know, the reason I do this show is that I want other people to have the opportunity to experience the things that we've been able to experience. So I'm just so grateful to you for your friendship and just so happy for you about this book. And I just fantastic. Uh, so congratulations. And um I just wonder, maybe we do another reading to lead us out of the show to end in the words of finding grace. And um, you know, everybody that's out there, please go back and if you want to learn more about Rocco. Well, he's been interviewed uh so many times on so many podcasts. So you can find lots of stuff about Rocco, but in particular, episode 40 of my show, he's been on the Camino News update. I don't know how many times. I mean, this guy's talents never end. And the best thing about him

Final Reading And Where To Buy

Leigh 54:10

is his heart. And um, I could get choked up because I think a lot of this man, as you guys probably know, and um, I'm just delighted that he can add the title of author to his resume. So lead us out.

Rocco 54:23

Well, it's a it's a mutual admiration society, Armana. Um the meal was simple but perfect. Hot, strong tea served with homemade cake made with honey and almonds. We sat in the common room with a dozen other pilgrims, our bodies settling gratefully into chairs after the day's climb, our conversation muted by exhaustion in anticipation of the evening service. Night was following as we made our way to the little church in Rabinal del Camino. The evening was cool, the sun already behind the mountains, the sky turning that deep blue that comes before true darkness. The church was already half full, and more people were filling in. Not just locals and pilgrims, but tourists came to experience this famous nightly service. I looked up at the ceiling with its simple wooden beams, crossing and recrossing, no elaborate decorations, no gold leaf, no Baroque flourishes, just stone and wood and candlelight. Grace closed her eyes, her lips moved in prayer. I tried to pray too, but my mind kept wandering, thinking about the climb tomorrow. I couldn't settle into the stillness. Six monks entered in single file, processing to the front of the church. They wore simple habits, their faces hidden by hoods. Turning to face us, they began to chant. Their voices rose and fell. I don't know what I expected. I'd heard recordings of Gregorian chant before, but this was nothing like that. This was meaningful. This was heartfelt. This was prayer. I felt it physically, it filled me. I felt vulnerable and powerful at the same time. I felt part of something far bigger than me. I lost track of time. The psalms flowed into one another. Even after the last notes died away, they continued to resonate within me. No one moved, no one spoke. We all sat there held by something we couldn't see, but could feel as surely as we felt the wooden pews beneath us. The monks processed out the way they'd come, their footsteps soft on the stone. When the door closed behind them, the spell began to break. People began to stir, to breathe normally, to return to their individual bodies, after having been briefly part of something collective. Grace opened her eyes and looked at me. Magic, she whispered. Magic, I agreed. Grace touched my arm. Come, we should rest. Tomorrow is the Cruz de Ferro. I'm not ready, I said, to let this go. This feeling. It will stay with you, she smiled. That's the gift of places like this.

Leigh 57:19

That's finding Grace, Rocco Rossi. Pilgrims, I encourage you to go out, um, buy this book. You're gonna enjoy it.

Rocco 57:28

It's on Amazon, and you can find out more at RoccoRossi.com. Thank you so much.

Leigh 57:34

I'll put the links in the show notes for everyone. Thank you, Rocco.

Rocco 57:39

Buen camino in la vida.