#168 Transform Stage Fright Into Human Connection

Today, I interview Michael Grant and Lee Glickstein. Michael once struggled with stage fright, from freezing in high school to facing the daunting role of speaking at his uncle’s memorial service. His voice, long held back by anxiety and fear, often felt locked away.

Everything began to shift when he discovered Speaking Circles, created by Lee. Instead of relying on performance or technique, Michael experienced the power of pauses, silence, and being truly seen. He learned to drop into his heart, receive listening, and let his authentic words emerge naturally.

What once felt like collapse slowly transformed into presence, connection, and shared humanity. Now, Michael is stepping into personal leadership with a voice no longer frozen by fear. Together with Lee, he shares how listening itself can be healing, how authenticity matters more than performance, and how true voice is found not in speaking louder—but in speaking from the heart.

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Michael Grant is an architectural designer whose journey with stage fright has spanned decades. What began in high school as a phobia of public speaking—whether in class, on stage, or even raising his hand—developed into a deep-seated anxiety that shaped much of his adult life.

Over the years, Michael explored countless avenues to face this fear: public speaking courses, acting classes, personal growth workshops, and three years with Toastmasters. While these tools helped him function in front of groups, he never truly felt safe internally. The anxiety persisted, often leaving him frozen under the spotlight, even on Zoom calls.

Everything changed when he was asked to MC his uncle’s memorial ceremony—a high-stakes moment with over 130 attendees. Michael feared delivering a stiff, scripted performance instead of honoring his heartfelt intention: to create a safe, loving, and inclusive space.

He discovered Be Heard Now! by Lee Glickstein, immersing himself in the practice of speaking from true inner presence, and with intensive dedication to planning and practice, he pulled it off. The memorial became a magical experience. 

Today, Michael sees his early fears not as burdens, but as invitations into lifelong personal growth.

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Lee Glickstein, founder of Speaking Circles International, is an authority on leadership presence and magnetism in public speaking. Decades of debilitating stage fright led him to develop an innovative approach to solving the epidemic fear of being fully oneself in front of groups.

Lee has presented his unique programs at over 20 chapters of the National Speakers Association. He is the author of Be Heard Now! Tap Into Your Inner Speaker and Communicate with Ease (Bantam Doubleday and Sounds True Audiotapes) and Be Seen Now! Inspiring Insights into Being a Fearless Speaker (Precosity Press).

He has facilitated thousands of Speaking Circles, workshops, seminars, and retreats around the world. Through Speaking Circles International, his team has trained over 1,000 Speaking Circle facilitators, who have led groups in eight countries and six languages.

Lee graduated from Brooklyn College with a B.A. in Sociology in 1966. In 1996, he was awarded the Athena Award for Excellence in Coaching and Mentoring.

Lee lives in the San Francisco Bay Area. His hobby is constructing crossword puzzles for The New York Times.
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Find Lee here:
https://speakingcircles.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/leeglickstein/

Transcript

Transcript of Interview

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

Free Guide to Fearless Speaking: Doreen7steps.com

Episode # 168 Lee Glickstein & Michael Grant

“Transform Stage Fright Into Human Connection”

(00:00) Doreen Downing: Welcome to the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life podcast. I'm Dr. Doreen Downing, psychologist and host, and today I have a very special, innovative new approach that I'm using. It’s primarily because I'd like to introduce you not only to my mentor, Lee Glickstein, but also somebody who's been working with him recently, Michael Grant. Hi, Lee. Hi. Hi, Michael.

What we're going to do today is highlight Michael's journey of not having a voice, and what he's been doing more recently to step up to certain situations that I know he needed to show up for and how that happened. Michael, I'd like to start with you today, because it really is about a journey of not having a voice to finding a voice. Could you start with a situation where you felt like, “I need help. I just can’t. Something’s happening. I get afraid.” What was going on for you? Let’s start there.

(00:01:20) Michael Grant: Thank you, Doreen, and wonderful to be here with both of you and Lee as well, who I’ve just so enjoyed. That’s a very broad question, so I’ll zoom way back. We have a joke—it started in 1967, the year I was born.

But really, when I was in high school was when it dawned on me that I froze public speaking. I was in boarding school, trying to impress a girl I really liked. I was actually deeply in love with her. And as I stood up there, everything just went blank. I felt so much inadequacy and not-enoughness that it’s almost like my phobia was born right then and there.

(00:02:13) Doreen Downing: It was a moment that feels crystallized in your psyche. Usually, I like to go a little bit further back in history, because that probably wasn’t the actual first time you had discomfort.

(00:02:31) Michael Grant: Exactly.

(02:32) Doreen Downing: But today is more about the journey to find your voice. I’m glad that you actually put it in the context of a relationship, whether it was personal, but you were trying to show up and be present, and it didn’t happen. There was completely a moment where you decided that it was not only uncomfortable, but painful.

So Michael, the “therefore,” what was the “therefore?” Was it, “I’m not going to show up again”? What was the conclusion?

(03:09) Michael Grant: The conclusion I made then was, “I’m not up for this. I’m going to have to guard myself. I’m going to have to find ways to protect and guard myself from this.”

I also wanted to mirror exactly what you said. That’s why I joked about it starting in 1967, the year I was born. Just knowing all that, starting from early lack of, I would say, co-regulation from my parents. I’ve learned so much in the last few years. I’ve been working on myself a lot, but especially over the last three years, I’ve seen how those early periods formed me as a human being.

But I don’t want to dwell there. I want to fast forward, but I just wanted to give that context, the appreciation that I know. Absolutely.

(04:05) Doreen Downing: I totally know. I’m a psychologist, and my belief is that those early formative years are when you first come out and go, “Hello!” And during those developmental phases, you get a sense of healthy narcissism, which means, “Hey, look at me,” and people applaud back.

But if they aren’t doing that, then there is damage to your sense of being able to show up and express yourself fully. So yes, let’s move forward to more recently, before you found my friend and training partner, Lee Glickstein. What was happening, and how did you find Speaking Circles?

(04:53) Michael Grant: I found Speaking Circles serendipitously. The timing was just wonderful. It was only maybe eight weeks ago. Backing up a little, before then my Uncle Henry, who I think of as a friend first and an uncle second, passed.

My two cousins and his widow all asked if I would be the master of ceremonies—I don’t know a better term—for his memorial service. That created the impetus to start preparing myself, and also a lot of anxieties. I said yes. I was ready, but knowing my propensity to fall flat, I’ve been good at falling flat on my face and really freezing.

At the same time, I was in a focusing online class with Ann Weiser Cornell, and they mentioned Barbara and Ann mentioned Lee’s work. That was only about four weeks ago, and I jumped right on it. It sounded so compelling. I bought the online book right away and started listening to Lee’s narration.

And here he is now. It’s just amazing that from one thing to another, from the book to the narration, I really feel like I got to know Lee 20 years ago when he recorded this. I’m still just getting to know him presently, but that connection was transmitted. He’s so intimate in that audiobook, and it gave me so much hope.

(06:46) Doreen Downing: Thank you for the history as well as the more recent need to be able to show up at your uncle’s memorial service. That’s often what happens. People have something in front of them, so there’s more urgency or need. That pushes them to take action when they might not have before.

I’m glad you listened to yourself, and I’m glad you found Lee. Lee, I want to move to you. Hi. To give context for what Michael might have heard in your book, what is Speaking Circles? That way those who are listening today can say, “Wow, I want more of what he’s having.”

(07:46) Lee Glickstein: Speaking Circles is an opportunity for people to find ease, comfort, and eventually pleasure in receiving an audience.

The problem for people who struggle isn’t a block in speaking. I discovered this about 30 years ago. It’s a block in receiving the available listening.

In Speaking Circles, we leave it up to the listeners to do the main work, which is to be with that person—eye to eye. We even have a way, as Michael knows, to do this on Zoom. Sometimes turns are one minute, three minutes, five minutes, or seven minutes. Whatever the length, the role of the listener is to be available, and the role of the person up front is to have one priority only.

That priority is not to speak. The priority is to receive the available listening. When you do that with one person at a time, so they feel seen, the listening comes to you. You begin to receive it.

When you receive listening, as those who have a great therapist, psychologist like Doreen, or a great coach or friend know, you become smarter. Things come through because you aren’t resisting. You’re not triggered by what’s happened before when you’ve spoken. Little by little, it comes systematically.

After a few circles, and Michael, I’m so amazed with you, I know you’ve been to a few circles with me and a few with Eric, you are dramatically finding a home in this virtual space. That’s what Speaking Circles is—finding comfort through receiving. There are people out there ready to listen if you’re not fighting them by trying to get heard.

(10:17) Doreen Downing: That’s great. Not fighting to be heard but knowing that the listening is there. It’s actually us listening to the listening—learning how to notice that people are really there. And even if they aren’t fully there, the way we listen creates a deeper listening from them.

And Lee, you just demonstrated one of the principles. When you were showing us what listening looks like—paying attention to one person at a time—you took a couple of beats. You didn’t just keep speaking. You paused and went one person at a time, one person at a time. That space is what allows us to actually receive the listening.

So, Michael, talk about your experience in Speaking Circles.

(11:22) Michael Grant: Speaking Circles has only been in my life a short time, but it’s been wonderful. It was a way to anchor so many of these things. I’ve only had maybe six circles, and I wouldn’t even say the main benefit I got was from the circles themselves. The meat really came from Lee’s book.

Of course, putting it into practice mattered too. For me, it was about taking those lessons—exactly what Lee described here and more—and then using them to prepare for the memorial service. That was electrifying. All the things Lee mentioned came alive. It was the experience of trusting.

Lee’s book gives examples of stepping out without notes. I put my notes aside, trusted the container, and fell into it. I also had the image of a trust fall.

(12:28) Michael Grant: So, I treated the audience like a trust fall. I wasn’t pretending. I wasn’t performing. I was showing up as a human being, insecurities and all. I was ready—if I panicked or froze—to simply say, “This is me. I’m frozen. I have this history. Bear with me. I’m asking for your patience.”

I was ready to move through it that way. But more than anything, I was committed to being truthful—showing up however I was, not pretending, posturing, or performing.

(13:12) Lee Glickstein: Michael, you sent a report on how that went, and Doreen and I read it. The people watching haven’t seen it, but I want to highlight one thing you wrote.

You said something like, “A few times I choked.” Then you corrected it to “choked up.” Not choked like failing but choked up.

(13:37) Michael Grant: Yes, choked up in a good way.

(13:39) Lee Glickstein: Exactly. In a good way. Some people would think, “Oh, I failed.” But you said, “Well, I’m being me.” That sentence was the one that made me know you had crossed a threshold. You now knew how to make love to an audience.

(13:58) Michael Grant: That’s right. To come from the heart. To be heart-centered, not mind-driven.

(14:07) Doreen Downing: Yes. Dropping down into your heart and trusting that the words come up and through, instead of going to some bank in your head where you’ve got it all scripted and you’re trying to remember.

It’s about letting all that go. Dropping down. Trusting.

Well, we’ve got a little time today. Do you have some questions you’d like to pose?

(14:36) Michael Grant: I am committed. My wife and I both decided we want to start Speaking Circles locally, in person. I definitely have questions—probably more technical than for a podcast—but really about where to go next. I know the format for starting a Speaking Circle will be available, so I’d ask you, Lee: where would you point me? That’s where I’ll be headed.

(15:08) Lee Glickstein: You mean toward doing that with your wife?

(15:11) Michael Grant: Yes. Locally, and with the organizational guidelines as well.

(15:18) Doreen Downing: As Training Director of Speaking Circles International, I can tell you we have a training coming up in October. We’ll definitely send you the information. It would be lovely to include you, since you’re such an advocate.

Being touched first by the transformation that’s possible gives you the next level of wanting to provide it for others, wanting to share it. And then there’s learning the skill we teach as well as the artfulness of it. I think that will be right up your alley, Michael. We’ll talk after this about next steps specifically for you and your wife.

(16:05) Lee Glickstein: And really, the idea of you practicing relational presence with her—perhaps using the mirror, as we’re doing now in my circles—and also bringing in a few friends, just informally. Not announcing yourself as a certified facilitator but practicing with people. That’s how you would get started.

(16:28) Doreen Downing: Wonderful. Michael, I’d like to hear from you: what is the biggest breakthrough you feel you’ve taken from the work so far?

(16:42) Doreen Downing: Or one of them? You’ve already talked about dropping down and speaking from your heart, trusting, because you had to be in front of people specifically. But it seems like in the actual experience of being in a Speaking Circle, what keeps you coming back?

(17:06) Michael Grant: First of all, it felt so good not to know the answer as you asked the question. So right there, being in the stillness of the question, without a planned answer. That’s been priceless.

And then to answer the question, what comes to me is heart-based awareness. I had a little method that I wanted to share as the memorial was coming closer. I had some drops, collapses into anxiety. At day six before the event, and then again at day three before the event. Both times there was a collapse, like a panic.

And Julia, my wife, even lost faith that I was going to pull this off. But each time when I came back from that low point, I was back in my heart, and I knew I was going to do well.

Here’s the device I found as the event was getting close. I had to be there two hours before, to be present for the folks bringing in the chairs, the catering—120 people, an outdoor tent, a lot of logistics. I was seeing people I hadn’t seen in 20 years, coming up and saying, “Michael…” and then asking me where I lived.

Through all of that, I knew I needed to stay in my heart and not go into social small talk, which could take me into my head. I kept over-the-ear earbuds on throughout that experience and played kirtan music—devotional, heart music. I had downloaded recordings, and I could control that music in my ears.

As I was talking to somebody, I would say, “Excuse me, I just need to retreat.” I really protected my zone through the music and through physically going off. At one point I was sitting off by myself, and then later I sat in the chair as people gathered.

I knew that my heart was forward and present. I felt the tears. It wasn’t like I was trying to cry. I was just in touch with the poignancy. Not tears of sadness, but tears of the poignancy of seeing fellow human beings coming together at this ceremony. It was the common humanity.

(19:54) Doreen Downing: Beautiful, beautiful demonstration of what it means to have somebody ask you a question. You take your pause, reflect, go inside yourself, and come up with your moment of truth, without anxiety about, “What should I say? How am I going to look?”

It’s more like, “Oh, we have a shared moment here. I’m asking you a question, or Lee and I are providing space, listening, and you’re listening to yourself.” The beauty is in the self-regulation. You found how to do that. Lee?

(20:38) Lee Glickstein: There’s a turning point that I’m sure happened at the memorial, and I see it happening with you as you come to circles. This is the key moment where people switch over to the audience’s side instead of being separate.

You come to the end of a sentence, and you don’t know what you’re going to say next. What you would ordinarily do—like you did when you first started circles—is think, “I don’t know what to say next,” so you look around, you look up, you try to come up with something because you don’t know how to just be there without speaking.

But then you get to the point, like you did at the memorial and are doing now in circles, where you’re with someone, you don’t know what to say next, and instead of panicking, you just allow it. Maybe there’s a little angst, but you take a breath. Maybe you move to another person, take another breath. There’s no rush. You allow the words to come when they’re ready, knowing the silences are poignant in themselves when they’re relational.

We call this capacity “easygoing in the not knowing.”

(22:05) Doreen Downing: Easygoing in the not knowing. Isn’t that wonderful?

(22:09) Lee Glickstein: Mm-hmm. Yes. Probably the ultimate wisdom for life. That’s what I appreciate seeing you get.

(22:18) Michael Grant: Yes. And from the listener’s standpoint, anytime I’m listening, and you pause like that, I’m here with you. I love it.

(22:34) Lee Glickstein: Yes. And when you do that in front of a group, people sometimes say, “Oh, those pauses were so good, as if you planned them.” But really, it’s that you allowed the pauses to have their space.

(22:48) Michael Grant: Yes. I don’t know if we’re out of time, but I did Toastmasters for a number of years. I learned a lot of mechanics, and I do vouch for it. It was wonderful—except I never got the pauses. I was trying to get to pauses from a technique standpoint, but the anxiety was always there.

Once I connected to my heart, the pauses and all the “ums” and “ahs” we count in Toastmasters were gone, because there was no more filler. I didn’t need them anymore.

(23:30) Doreen Downing: Seamless flow. Beautiful. We are close to finishing up here, but you have Lee, the founder, and me, the Training Director. If there’s some burning question you’d like to ask before we close, let us know.

(23:53) Lee Glickstein: Or a conversation you’d like to have.

(24:02) Michael Grant: It’s not that I don’t have one, The image I’m having is joining the leadership table. To pull up a chair. And that’s what I feel your work has helped me do—claim the chair, be here, present as an equal amongst leaders. I don’t mean that in any hierarchical way, like I’m stepping into some authority. It’s more like personal leadership. Becoming whole, in both self-reflection and sharing with others. That feels so rich to me. And such an honor to be here with both of you.

(25:11) Doreen Downing: Thank you. We have a phrase: listening becomes you.

(25:18) Lee Glickstein: And leadership through listening. We can see your leadership qualities, Michael. It’s exciting for me to see that you’re helping lead the movement.

(25:32) Doreen Downing: Yes. Thank you both for this time together and for feeling the threads of the heart coming through. We are weaving something beautiful in this moment that we will remember, and I think we also have a vision for our futures together. Thank you so much, Michael. And thank you, Lee.

(25:59) Lee Glickstein: Thank you, Michael.